Which is more inappropriate?

[Tom Rinaldo]

Not holding an elected leader adequately accountable for prior acts of racial insensitivity/prejudice, or allowing an opposing political party with a systematic record of racial intolerance to take over the administration of a State's government, to then implement policies rejected by the electorate in the last gubernatorial election?

What is happening now in Virginia with the three top state wide elected officials can't be looked at as individual cases only. There will be profound adverse effects on the lives of millions of Virginia citizens it the Republican Party, which was soundly defeated in their efforts to win state wide leadership positions in the last election, now inherits the Governor's position by default.

If Virginia's Governor and Attorney General are forced out of office due to their past acts of prejudice, and the Lt. Governor is forced out over an alleged sexual assault, Republicans will then control Virginia. There will be real life consequences for women and People of Color if that happens.

What Lt. Governor Fairfax is being accused of is a literal serious crime. If the accusation is true he can not remain in office. If the weight of available evidence leads the public to believe that he likely is guilty of that crime then he can not hold office. If he is indicted of a crime he can not hold a leadership position. This is still a fluid situation as Fairfax strongly denies the allegation of non nonsexual sex, but the evidential standard that would make him an unsuitable leader is lower than that which would be needed to convict him.

Which brings us to the number one and number three positions in Virginia's executive branch. Neither is accused of a crime. In my opinion the prior misdeeds of the current Governor are more serious than that of the AG. Northam was in his mid twenties when they occurred, Herring was 19. The blackface photo Northam is associated with also included the most stark representation of white supremacy possible, the KKK. The blackface portrayal was an overtly mocking presence. That photo was published in Northam's yearbook. I do not find it credible that he never learned of that at least after the fact, assuming he is to believed that he disn't submit that photo himself, which it is hard to do given his shifting stories. But beyond that, Northam admitted to another blackface incident, and his public stance regarding all of it is an underwhelming display of insufficient understanding of the pain he has caused.

AG Herring was a teenager who at least plausibly had positive feelings about the rapper he tried to imitate. There was no subsequent public record of the photo taken at that party, and the tone of Herring's apology rings with greater sincerity and understanding of the seriousness of his error than did that or Northam.

Given the high stakes involved, leadership of the State of Virginia with all that entails for the citizens of that State, I believe Democrats should rally behind Attorney General Herring now and forgive him, if nothing else for pragmatic but very significant and far reaching policy reasons. The man committed no crime. But it would be a crime to now in effect potentially overturn the last election and hand Republicans the keys to Virginia.

[dalton99a]

1. They're ratfucking democracy itself.

[2naSalit]

8. +1

[DownriverDem]

21. What about

trump and kavanaugh? Why are they still there? Why is it that the Dems eat their own?

[brush]

63. Not to worry. Any repug they put in will have their own racist incidents in the past.

[dlk]

2. The Timing of the Concurrent Scandals Has to be Considered

Without considering the merits of the accusations, it's no coincidence the top three Democrats in Virginia government are facing scandals and being asked to step down at the exact same time. Republicans are desperate. I fear what they will come up with for the 2020 elections.

[uponit7771]

4. +1

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. It would be irresponsible not to consider this

Holding government official accountable for prior actions serves the interests of the public. Upholding the will of the electorate obviously does the same. Sometimes efforts to uphold positive principles come into conflict. Sometimes elements of the Bill of Rights itself come into conflict and an effort must be made to weigh those conflicting imperatives.

Virginians did not vote for Republican leadership. A pragmatic reconciliation of the above principles must be found

[2naSalit]

9. +1

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. I see it as a coup and an attempt to overturn the will of the electorate.

Expect to see this tactic being deployed in other states. 100% guaranteed if this proves successful. Here's hoping Michigan Democrats don't have any skeletons in their closets. Or closets big enough to stuff one in.

[workinclasszero]

60. At first I thought it was an isolated incident with the Governor

But now it seems to be...has to be...an effort by the GOP to take out the dem leadership in Virginia.

Three charges against the top three dems in that state at the same time? Gee what a cowinkee dink!

C'mon that smells to high heaven! This is for sure a coordinated effort by the GOP!

And yeah look for the GOP anti democracy party to take this shit nationwide. Dems with skeletons in their closets better confess and get out in front of the Trump smear machine first!

[ewagner]

26. +2

[AncientGeezer]

51. Dr. Tyson brought this issue to Va. Rep Scott's office Last yr.

[uponit7771]

3. K&R, we should ... NOT ... take sledge hammers to fruit flies every time someones past comes up ...

... there should be some moderation in response and an established process of investigation before a chorus comes out.

[2naSalit]

10. +1

[bigtree]

5. ooh, we're thinking like republicans now

...holding power is everything, is that it?

Herring might get a pass because of the way he handled the scandal. Northam is suffering because he handled his own revelations badly.

Careful making this into some broad principle. Sweeping misbehavior under the rug, mitigating charges and penalties, expressly for the purposes of maintaining power, is a slippery slope on a snow dish.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. It's not a broad principle. It's a set of unique circumstances

Were all three leaders guilty of acts well beyond the pale there would be nothing left to consider. The chips would have to fall the way they will. The jury (almost literally) is still out on Fairfax. Northam IMO is beyond the pale. It is only Herring who sits on the bubble, for reasons already discussed. Under these circumstances I believe the overall interests of the majority of Virginians would be to allow Herring to remain in office rather than turn Government over to the political party they just rejected at the ballot box.

[bigtree]

23. that's just political partisanship

...wrap it up in whatever you want.

It's what republicans regularly do, and it perpetuates problems like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, in our democratic institutions.

Rationalizing this as a unique political situation and lumping it all together to form a Democratic mishmash of concern belies the individual accountability which is the basis for electing these officials and allowing them to serve.

Herring will either acquit himself sufficiently in the public view in Virginia, or he will not. Any reasoning for him continuing in office should be removed from future political considerations like you describe, and focus on his actual fitness for office. Public trust will be a very important element in that determination.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. The term "on the bubble" literally means something

And if Herring doesn't acquit himself sufficiently in the public view in Virginia, he will no longer be "on the bubble". In his case I believe Democrats, and Virginians in general, are best served with providing him a fair chance to do so (acquit himself sufficiently) without rushing to get ahead of that curve in calling for his removal. I think policy considerations and the impact they can have on real lives is a factor worth considering while determining what accountability looks like for a sincere public servant with a transgression of borderline severity that they once made as a teen.

[AncientGeezer]

54. Herring...last Saturday(2Feb'19) called for the Govs resignation...

For the black face crap....then he later admits HE also pulled the same crap...

If you call for a resignation for an activity you admit to doing....shouldn't you also hold yourself to that same standard?

[Tom Rinaldo]

58. I don't see their "scandals" as equivalent, why must he?

Yes there is a key factor in common but that does not make both cases identical. Not only did he change his story over two days, but he changed it to this: "I believe now and then that I am not either of the people in this photo,"

WTF???

Why can't he categorically state that he wasn't in that photo, you know, the one with the klansman? Does he believe this is a different photo of a man in blackface posing with a klansman than some other photos out there in which he actually did appear? Is that why his nickname was "Coon man?"

Notham seems to have lost public confidence and that factored into Herring's call.. Herring has said that if the same turns out to be true of him then he will resign also. His position makes sense to me.

[kentuck]

6. It's a Hobbesian choice...

The Democrats may choose to just take a hit?

There are no easy answers to this one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I read that if all three announce their resignations

I read that if all three announce their resignations in a predetermined order we can save the seat.

[Demsrule86]

18. That is untrue. The Republican is next in line...I am not willing to give the governorship of

Virginia to the Republicans over a 40 year old action...this is ratfucking and we should allow redemption for both Northam and Herring. As for Fairfax, a he should she said with nothing else should be ignored. Let the voters decide.

[kentuck]

20. It seems to me...

...that as long as Donald Trump is in office, the Republicans do not have enough credibility to ask a Democratic Governor or official to resign over matters such as these. These are decisions that will have to be made by the voters of Virginia. They will have to decide.

[Demsrule86]

62. As always Kentuck...you are correct. I want to give you a heart! But hubs had emergency spinal

surgery. He is not paralyzed and will live...we are fighting for our disability which we are lucky to have but is a process. So I have no money at the moment to spend! I have decent coverage but still will shell out $8000 out of pocket...and I am one of the lucky ones.

[Demsrule86]

19. We don't reward ratfucking. The choice is simple...Northam and Herring seek redemption...it is 40

years old people...no matter how offensive. It would offend me and disenfranchise voters in VA if we allowed the GOP to win Virginia by ratfucking. As for Fairfax, this is disgusting and I don't believe it anyway. But no matter what, it is a he said she said so there is no reason for resignation. The voters can decide.

[dumbcat]

14. Our elected officials must be held accountable for their actions

unless it is really bad for us?

[Demsrule86]

16. Yes. I don't consider that Black face 40 year ago a reason for resignation and

we should expect sincere apologies but not resignation. The GOP are ratfucking us and we should put a stop to it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. Of course, but the actions themselves must first be weighed

before determining what "accountable" means. We are talking about three different individuals with unique circumstances. Bill Clinton could have instead been rebuked, but should he have been impeached? There were real world consequences to that impeachment trial, important elements of our federal government took their eyes partially off of national security threats in order to devote time to it. Did that serve the national interest? As I said, I think Virginia might best be served by falling short of removing Herring from office.

[ProfessorPlum]

22. What is bad for "us", where "us" includes

the poor, religious and racial minorities, women, the middle class, . . . .

there are ways to exact punishment without harming all of those people.

[Demsrule86]

15. Nailed it...I said this the entire time. This is ratfucking 101 in Virginia.

No one resigns. K&R.

[BSdetect]

24. The repugs can depend on knee jerk reactions from Dems it seems.

They are insidious ratfuckers and have been since Nixon who was one of them.

[DirtEdonE]

27. They pubicans are using our zero tolerance policy against us

The same way pootin used the Electoral College against us.

PS - pootin won.

[sagesnow]

28. He that is without sin

may cast the first stone. What perfectly devine human will be left to lead us out of the Republican wilderness. Can we forgive our human leaders in order to move forward?

[treestar]

29. We have to give Fairfax a pass to the extent possible

It is not hypocritical. We opposed Kavanaugh but he got to take the seat. There was a stronger case against him and he wasn't in the job yet. If those allegations had arisen now instead of then, he would not be pressured to step down from the Court by the Repubs!

We have to in a lawyerly fashion argue Fairfax's side of the case.

It is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Like letting the Senate stay R in majority with Turtle as majority leader become some D Senators are too conservative. Get rid of Manchin because of his abortion stance and let the Court go right wing and overturn Roe v. Wade. That's worse. If we can get a D Senate, no justices who will overturn. So who cares about red state Ds being too conservative? Worry about that later.

[AncientGeezer]

30. "There was a stronger case against him..." In what way?

I'm interested in how you see Dr. Ford's case as stronger than Dr. Tyson's.

[treestar]

31. Believable witness in Ford; bad witness in Kavanaugh

Third party who was present. Kav. reputation for drunkenness. Other girls giving more stories of drunken dick-waving and general aura of frat-boy lifestyle and attitudes.

[AncientGeezer]

33. "Third party who was present." Did I miss that? Testimony from a 3rd party..

...corroborating...I don't recall any 3rd party corroboration.
Are you suggesting Dr. Tyson is less believable than Dr. Ford?
If so why?

[treestar]

36. Ford took lie detector test

We don't have as much information about Tyson and Fairfax - still he said/she said, a tie goes to the defendant.

[AncientGeezer]

40. And(?)....inadmissable in any Court. Will Fairfax take a lie detector test...we both

..know the answer to that.
If it were me..innocent.... I'd have done it when Dr. Tyson told Va. Rep Bobby Scott's office about it last yr.

You said there was a 3rd party confirmation for Dr. Ford....Where? The Lie detector test wasn't submitted as evidence in the hearings just that she'd taken 1...and you know why. It's not admissible in courts.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/26/christine-blasey-fords-polygraph-test-brett-kavanaugh-sexual-assault-allegations/1434270002/

[MichMary]

57. If by "third party who was present,"

you mean Mark Judge, he categorically denied that it had happened. If you mean Leland Keyser, she had no memory, and said she had never met Kavanaugh.

The other stories seemed to be quite flimsy. Ramirez allegations seemed to be more plausible than Swetnick's, but even she wasn't sure it was him until she had spoken to a number of friends, (who weren't eye witnesses to what she claimed happened.) Some of the people admitted to fabricating their stories, and I believe some of those have been referred for prosecution.

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. I wrote a highly detailed OP about the evidence regarding Ford and Kavanaugh

Went through all of it step by step:

Step by Step. Debunking Kavanaugh Defender Logic
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211264248

[AncientGeezer]

47. That's a really great opinion piece you wrote

...but is your opinion and has zero evidence relevance.
In your final paragraph you summed up the deal....."It is possible that Judge Kavanaugh did not assault Dr Ford those many years ago, but her testimony, and everything that surrounds it, makes her case compelling."
Dr. Ford couldn't recall key details....Dr. Tyson does and told Va.Rep. Bobby Scott's office about it last yr.

[Adrahil]

32. Also, what does "hold accountable" mean?

I think the contemporary response is something to consider. Northam's act, while serious, did not directly victimize anyone, and while handling of the matter has been clumsy, it hasn't been disrespectful.

Fairfax's act would have been a criminal act, and DID victimize someone (if it happened). I AM concerned by reports that he said "fuck that bitch," though I do not know how reliable they are, but if he said that, that would be damning in my view.

The AG? I'm not seeing that as career-ending as long as he acknowledges how terrible it was.

[AncientGeezer]

34. The AG did say Nortram should step down if he was in black face

Then admits he also was in black face.

[Adrahil]

37. Northam's main issue now....

is "can he be an effective leader?"

If he can;t he needs to go. But if any significant transgression in the past is grounds for blackballing now, a LOT of heads will roll. Herring was a college kid.. which is somewhat different from a 25 year old Med student choosing to put that photo in his yearbook.

I'm not saying that's not just, but I will say that kind of bloodletting is EXACTLY what the GOP wants to happen.

[AncientGeezer]

39. He's spun the black face crap 3x's...Sorry for me doing it..it wasn't me...

and the presser....his wife had to stop him from Moon walking....
And considered with staff, switching to being an Ind. because of the heat he was getting from leading Dem leaders, deservedly so....that alone shows a lack of acceptance of the frig up.

This wasn't just some dumb kid.....Jessie Jackson was a candidate for POTUS in 1984 and Northram was 25. I had finished my term in the Army by 25

[Adrahil]

43. Well, I was kind of an idiot until I was bout 26.

though I have never done black face. I have said and done things I am ashamed of, though.

But Northam has fumbled the response. BUT.... we have to be careful how this plays out.

[AncientGeezer]

45. So the 1 yr is the difference? I was feeding a family at 25.

The guy is Governor NOW and he can't get his stories straight...34 yr later.

[Adrahil]

46. Hey... good for you. You are better than me.

I agree that Northam should go. But I think we have to have a considered plan on how this plays out. The GOP has targeted every Democrat in the line of succession. They intend to eviscerate Democrat leadership in Virginia.

[AncientGeezer]

50. Dr. Tyson is NOT GOP

[Charlotte Little]

35. +1

Forgive Herring and make this the learning opportunity it can be without hysterics or purity politics.

Northam absolutely MUST go. But with Herring, he came out with it, apologized, and so far that I've seen, there is nothing else that has surfaced.

I would like to think we can move past this as a country and blackface would never again appear, but even the younger generations are going to have this surface in 20 years or so from now because it is still a thing in this racist country. We must keep fighting it and educating the younger generations.

[Blue_Tires]

38. Please... Barring some bit of miracle evidence

or a lot of women coming forward with the same accusation and M.O. ala Bill Cosby, Fairfax isn't going anywhere...

Have you read her official statement? Not only is it thin as hell, Tyson isn't allowing any follow-up or further questioning...

[BlueStater]

42. What's "thin as hell" about it? Seemed like she included all needed information to me.

[Blue_Tires]

48. She didn't say "NO" in her official statement?

She didn't even offer a reason for sitting on this story for 14 years?

She has no actual proof?

She's not allowing any further follow-up questioning or detail, which screams "My story won't hold up if I have to defend it?"

How many more you want? I'm getting tired of repeating this stuff in 10 different threads

[BlueStater]

49. What an embarrassing, sickening answer.

No proof? Why did she wait so long? That's the kind of shit I heard from Kavanaugh supporters regarding Dr. Ford.

You should be ashamed. Jesus.

[Blue_Tires]

52. Good job at ignoring my main point

which is she didn't say 'NO' in her initial statement.

So why isn't she pressing charges then? The statute of limitations is 15 years.


And as to your formulaic response:

Personal insult? Check...
Direct comparison with Republicans? Check...
Moral shaming? Check...

You left out some variation of "Dems are supposed to be better than this!" but that would have been overkill. You've done this before, haven't you? I can tell.

This is the part where I make a wager that you apologize to me if Fairfax ends up being vindicated, but I know you wouldn't follow through on it anyway so let's just end this here because I've got bigger fish to fry.

[BlueStater]

59. She consented to the kissing.

That's nowhere close to the same thing as wanting a pecker in her mouth. Your "point" is garbage.

And then you shoot yourself in the foot further by using the same usual disgusting excuses for sexual assault like "why did she wait so long" and "there's no proof". Frankly, I don't give a fuck if you find my response "formulaic". You earned that comparison.

And, no, I wouldn't apologize to you. Your attitude is goddamn disgusting, regardless of whether you're correct that he's innocent or not. Your "evidence" of his innocence is based on nothing more than an alleged sexual assault victim's reaction not being satisfying enough for you. It's disgraceful.

[idahoblue]

41. This appears to be a Republican coup.

They are taking out every democrat in one fell sweep. This is a hostile takeover of the state of Virginia.

[elleng]

53. But it would be a crime to now in effect potentially overturn the last election

and hand Republicans the keys to Virginia.

[BamaRefugee]

55. "When they go low, we go OUT OF OFFICE" *FIXED*. Sadly. Why do *WE* never come up with things like

Passing rules to render a new governor toothless when a Republican got elected? Never pass laws PROACTIVELY when we have power to reinforce and make bulletproof all the things that we KNOW Republicans are going to destroy if they take power? Like pass dozens of laws making Roe v Wade untouchable, making Medicare and Social Security ETCHED IN STONE FOR ALL TIME? There has to be ways to do it, Rethuglicans are always coming up with schemes, why can't we?


WE ARE NOT JUST AN EVERY 6 to 8 YEARS CLEAN UP CREW!


If we control the purse strings now, why have we not bought a plane for the Speaker of the House to use, that is NOT UNDER PRESIDENTIAL CONTROL??? What law is there anyway that says Trump can just ground "Nancy" whenever he feels like it? (I really don't know the answer to this, any info appreciated.)


We need to propose law after law after law that will EXTEND AND PROTECT laws already on the books that are for the benefit of the people, not the corporations, make it where it will take 10 years in the courts for corporatists and ultra rich to overturn these laws.

TIME FOR TUFF LOVE, not being nice and polite and merely rending our garments and tearing our hair.

[Mr.Bill]

56. What has happened and what will happen in Virginia

is not up to us, or the DMC, or anyone but the voters of Virginia. There are legal mechanisms to remove people from office. Public opinion from people outside of Virginia should not have any power other than to influence the people of Virginia to proceed as they wish.

I will support whatever they do or do not do.

[Nitram]

61. Exactly. Democrats keep getting fucked for questionable acts while Republicans get away with

bald-faced racism, misogyny, and homophobia. Let's stop shooting ourselves in the foot trying to hold the high moral ground against opponents who have absolutely no qualms about being racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. Northam and the Democratic leaders in Virginia are not racists. They did stupid things as jokes when they were in school. those act do not reflect on their true stances on equality and civil rights.

[Tom Rinaldo]

64. Has anything else negative come out about Herring?

I hven't heard of anything. At age 19 he and some friends went to a party costumed to impersonate a rap group. That impersonation include brown face makeup. It was clearly racially insensitive. And dumb. Is that it on Herring? That as a 19 year old white teen in Virginia 39 years ago he one time displayed racial insensitivity? No evidence of such behavior later in Graduate school for instance? No racially charged nicknames? No inconsistent public explanations about his prior misdoings? No public tips on the best way to apply blackface shoe polish?

This morning I heard an NPR commentator express that all three of Virginia's top elected Democrats are embroiled in scandals. I just don't see that in Herring's case at least. He made a troublesome self admission of youthful insensitive behavior along with a heartfelt apology and expressions of deep regret. Whether or not Virginia's citizens, want him to continue in office, I do not consider Herring to be embroiled in a "scandal".