If Sanders not being officially in the party bothers Democrats so much

[ProfessorPlum]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Yonnie3 (a host of the General Discussion forum).

then they won't vote for him in the primaries.

See? The problem solves itself.

[RandiFan1290]

1. They didn't mind when Charlie Crist was a 3rd party candidate for the Senate race in 2010. nt

[ProfessorPlum]

9. Or Joe Lieberman

in the Lieberman party

[shanny]

17. and apparently they don't care much about Bloomberg...

p.s. Ds endorsing Lieberman over the primary winner in their own party was effing DISGUSTING

[ProfessorPlum]

21. I was also taken aback by that. Also by Lieberman's enormous ego.

But it does bring up that a different axis from right-left, conservative to progressive, is pro-establishment and anti-establishment.

Too many D's were more pro-establishment than they were pro-party in the case of Lieberman and Lamont.

[Trumpocalypse]

93. I remember most people here

had a big problem with Lieberman.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

119. Likewise

That's my memory.

[dem4decades]

152. Lieberman's name makes my blood boil.

[Snotcicles]

170. What was your username here, back then? nt

[Trumpocalypse]

172. Why do you ask?

[maxrandb]

65. I don't think Charlie Christ had a major hand in handing the presidency to Donnie Short Fingers

or helped shepherd in this shit-show.

Every time Donnie Shit for Brains nominates a young, white, racist, corporatist Federalist Society nutjob to the federal bench for a lifetime appointment...should we give just a little thanks to Bernie?

[RandiFan1290]

81. Bernie didn't lose to trump. nt

[zentrum]

106. Nor cause anyone else to lose to Trump.

[UniteFightBack]

155. True but he stayed in way longer than necessary and that was not helpful. That hurt the Democrats.

[ProfessorPlum]

165. Think about why Sanders did that. He knew he couldn't win. He probably knew

he couldn't win when he got in.

My theory is that he began and continued his campaign not to win the nomination, but to spread his ideas. his policies are what are important for the American people to hear about, so that they know that things can change and get better for people.

If you look at his campaign as a way to broadcast his policies, it makes a lot of sense. The same way that Howard Dean got into the race in 2004 because he wanted to get a conversation going about healthcare.

Knowing Sanders' policies for years, hearing him on Brunch with Bernie discussing the economic policies that will get this country back on its feet, you know that the last thing he wanted was to help Rump in any way.

[UniteFightBack]

166. No he was trying to win the nomination. The whole delegate bullshit...remember? nt

[zentrum]

178. That's it. And

...he was successful. Many of his lifelong policies are now the Democratic platform.

But he's a convenient scapegoat.

[Honeycombe8]

74. Who is "they"? And what does a 3rd party candidate have to do with Sanders?

Are you acknowledging that Sanders is a third party candidate?

[olegramps]

98. When Sanders entered the race his position was very little different than Trump.

Clinton was running against an imposter that was running as a Democrat that has never belonged to the party. Tell me what is the difference between Sanders position on tariffs than Trumps and which are destroying the economy? What are Sander's accomplishments; a couple of post offices renamed. His bills never garnered any support because they never had a ghost of a chance of being passed. He is crowing about the his support for a higher minimum wage which far many others long before him had called for and actually got enacted into law. If you what to see what real Democrats accomplished look at what the GI Bill did for retuning veterans, the 4o hour work week, child labor laws, compulsory education, unionization, etc. His track record is zero. He is just a bag of hot air and no substance.

[honest.abe]

122. Supporting Crist was a strategic move to stop Rubio.

It could have worked had there been full cooperation from all Dems. Crist would have caucused with the Dems.

[LongtimeAZDem]

2. The problem is that he doesn't stop, even when he loses, and his supporters rally against the party

At least, that's what happened last time.


Edited to add:

If he were to bow out when mathematically eliminated and actively support Democrats, and rally his followers to do so, I'd be thrilled to see him in our race. But that is not his track record.

[Sneederbunk]

4. +100

[Dennis Donovan]

7. Bullshit!!!

EVERY SINGLE Sanders supporter I knew (and everyone else here) supported and voted for Hillary Clinton. Let's take about PUMAs in 2008!

Look it u.

[LongtimeAZDem]

11. You have a selective memory; there are a number of current posters who flat out stated

that they would not vote for Clinton.

Sanders DELEGATES were giving interviews at the convention saying they would vote for Stein. We have video.

Stop trying to erase history.

[Dennis Donovan]

15. PUMAS in 2008

No selective memory at all, except on your part, my friend.

[LongtimeAZDem]

18. What about them? Clinton worked tirelessly, from the time that Obama won the primaries

to bring her people over.

In contrast, Sanders said "it's not over, we're taking it to the convention", and kept talking about "her emails" until he grudgingly endorsed her just before the convention.

And, when his supporters walked out after Clinton's nomination, he said nothing.

Night and day, and you know it.

[Dennis Donovan]

22. ...and they REFUSED to vote for Obama.

I know not of a SINGLE Sanders' supporter who pledged not to vote for Hillary in 2016. Not. A. One. (Except for "Bernie Bros" believers. Boy, FSB hit a home run that day...&quot .

What really sucks is that some here are still believing this nonsense.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. +1000000!

[LanternWaste]

52. Without your continued use of unsupported allegations, you have so very little...

Without your continued use of unsupported allegations, you'd have so very little substantive evidence. I can see why you rely on them so consistently.

[LongtimeAZDem]

58. +∞

[Dennis Donovan]

59. Show me PUMAs who voted for Obama...

Oy vey, done with the 2016 warriors...

[Dennis Donovan]

141. Google it...

Do your own work on whether Clinton supporters went south in 2008. It happened and I was there...

[namahage]

68. Got a whole website full of them, what was it called...

Juveniles Playing Revolutionaries?
Jerks, Primarily Republican?
Jokers Paid in Rubles?

[Dennis Donovan]

70. .

[MrsCoffee]

28. I also don't remember Clinton calling for someone to primary Obama.

It is night and day.

There is a great effort being made to pretend Bernie Bros never existed. Great effort being made to pretend Bernie didn't drag things out way after he had no chance of winning. Telling us not to believe our own eyes and ears.

I'm done with that kind of propaganda being thrown around.

[KPN]

120. Obama invited HRC to discuss how she could

be involved in the platform, the convention, campaign, and the administration early after the outcome became obvious. He reached out with a carrot. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I don’t remember her doing that same thing early. Didn’t she actually strike an opposite tone? That’s kind of what I recall. But maybe it’s a relative or biased perspective on my part. Correct me with the facts if I am wrong.

Let’s be clear. I am not trying to refight the 16 primary here. Just providing some clarifying and possibly mitigating contextual perspective.

[MrsCoffee]

158. I'm not sure what you mean by reach out?

This wasn't good enough?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/287486-how-bernie-came-to-back-hillary

The coming-together finally occurred after long talks involving Clinton, Sanders and his wife, Jane, as well as top campaign officials on both sides. The negotiations centered on how the two candidates could push forward with an agreed-upon agenda.

A critical moment in the process, Clinton aides said Tuesday, was the meeting between the two candidates last month at the Washington Hilton. The talk helped to break the ice, with Sanders campaign manager Jeff Weaver and Clinton counterpart Robby Mook lingering at the hotel for another two hours.

In the weeks after that initial meeting, Mook and Weaver continued the discussion in a string of calls and text messages. Last month, they had a one-on-one dinner at the Farmhouse Tap and Grill in Burlington, Vt., one Clinton aide said.

Over a burger for Weaver and a salad for Mook, they discussed issues including Sanders’s tuition-free college proposal. They were interrupted several times by diners asking to take selfies with Weaver, the Clinton aide said. The dinner meeting went well into the night, lasting until about 11 p.m.

[KPN]

168. Key word: finally. Read between the lines.

[MrsCoffee]

169. You read between the lines. That article was written before the convention.

And the two had met the month before that.

But color me surprised that you would find something to pick at.

[KPN]

171. Really? Ignore the facts if you wish. Before the

convention is vastly different from months before.

[MrsCoffee]

175. Really.

[Cha]

135. Ikr.. unbelievable!

[thesquanderer]

115. You've missed two important points.

1. Clinton did not immediately concede once Obama had the required 2118 delegates.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24953561/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-refuses-concede-nomination/

2. Sanders didn't "keep talking about her emails" - quite the contrary.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/664591/bernie-sanders-still-doesnt-care-about-hillarys-damn-emails-says-media-shouldnt-have-either

[honest.abe]

123. Hillary admitted she could not win but needed some time to decide how to bow out gracefully.

According to an NBC News source, Clinton said if Obama were to ask her to be on the ticket, she would be interested.

"I am open to it," Clinton replied, if it would help the party's prospects in November.

Clinton also told colleagues the delegate math was not there for her to overtake Obama, but that she wanted to take time to determine how to leave the race in a way that would best help Democrats.

"I deserve some time to get this right," she said, even as the other lawmakers forcefully argued for her to press Obama to choose her as his running mate.

[thesquanderer]

129. But not long before, she "vowed to take the fight to the nominating convention"

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91106055

[honest.abe]

139. Which she didnt.

What are so intent on vilifying Hillary?

[thesquanderer]

154. I've said nothing negative about Hillary.

I just don't elevate her above Bernie.

Neither was a perfect candidate. Either would have been a fine president.

[Cha]

136. Then President Obama did

ask her 3 times to be SOS and she said yes!

And, she did an excellent job

[LongtimeAZDem]

128. Uh, no

1. Clinton conceded four days later. Sanders took a month, during which he continued to attack Clinton

2. Wrong emails; I'm talking about the "DNC rigged it for Clinton" ones. both he and his followers kept those very much front and center.


A quick side note on point one: in 2008, Sanders endorsed Obama right away, even before Clinton conceded. He didn't have a problem with the superdelegates then:

In ‘08, Sanders Endorsed Obama – Before Clinton Formally Exited Race

[thesquanderer]

179. re: "in 2008, Sanders endorsed Obama right away, even before Clinton conceded"

as did many other people. But it's refreshing to see someone complain that Sanders supported Obama too strongly, since the more common complaint is that he supported Obama too weakly.

[LongtimeAZDem]

181. Oh, BS; the point is that he changed his tune when it appplied to him:

But Sanders struck a different tone in 2008, when he told his hometown newspaper, the Burlington Free Press in Vermont, that he planned to “play a very active role” in supporting Obama.

“I will do everything I can to see that he is elected president,” he said at the time.

That interview was published on June 5, 2008, two days after the last Democratic contests but two days before Clinton suspended her campaign.

The story also noted that “Sanders said he held off supporting either of the Democrats because he has made it a custom not to support any Democrat for the presidential nomination until the party had chosen its nominee.”

At that point, however, Obama had 1,766.5 pledged delegates and Clinton had 1,639.5, according to data from RealClearPolitics. In 2008, 2,118 total delegates were required to secure the nomination.

So, in 2008, he considered Obama's primary total, minus the superdelegates, to signify that the party had chosen its nominee.

Sanders takes different position on superdelegates than he did in 2008

[LiberalLovinLug]

131. Bullshit about talking about "her emails"

He tirelessly and endlessly was poked and prodded by the MSM to attack Hillary on the emails, and he refused.

Or Benghazi or Whitewater, or any of the fake news about Hillary. Why?....because there were plenty of other actual issues he wanted to run FOR not AGAINST. In fact he was clearly visably upset every time a reporter would attempt to make him react negatively to the emails.

Its one of the reasons that Sanders gets so much respect around here. Its about his policies, his ideas, not wasting time whining about fake scandals.

The only, ONLY, time there was ever a hint at criticism was when a reporter confronted him with an official report by the State Department’s inspector general, that was critical of Clinton's use of her server, and said, not surprisingly, that people would have to take a hard look at it that development. That was the only instance, and after that I believe Hillary admitted her carelessness and apologized. After which Bernie never brought it up again.

http://time.com/4351525/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-emails-superdelegates/

The Vermont senator, who has refrained from attacking his opponent on the email scandal on the campaign trail, mentioned the Thursday report by the State Department’s inspector general during a Sunday appearance on CBS’ Face the Nation. The inspector general concluded that Clinton and her senior aides ignored repeated warnings that her private email system was vulnerable to hackers when she was Secretary of State.

“It was not a good report for Secretary Clinton,” Sanders said. “That is something that the American people, Democrats and delegates are going to have to take a hard look at.”


And why can't he go to the convention? It was not breaking any rules. That was his right. In fact, it was a success in that Hillary was forced to have a more progressive platform with some of Sanders policies included.

The "Bernie Bros" were a Putin troll invention. Sad that even some DUers fell for it.

Look, in simplistic terms, there was a majority of Sanders supporters that were Democrats first. This was that 48% he had of support just before it all crashed for good in California. Then he also had a lot of independents and probably even a few disgruntled R's. The first group overwhelmingly followed Bernies lead and voted for Hillary. The second group never were going to vote for Hillary anyways....so there was no net loss of votes.

Now if Sanders would have won the primaries, he would have held that support. And would also have taking the Rust Belt states who sided with him on the trade deals. As well, Putin and the GOP would have had a more limited time to pivot to smearing him before the election. And right now we wouldn't be suffering with Trump.

[LongtimeAZDem]

133. Again, wrong emails. He didn't care about the email server issue, but the DNC strategy ones.

There are a lot of people here trying to pretend that June 2016 didn't happen.

[LiberalLovinLug]

138. Are you purposely muddying up the issues?

The term "her emails" heard by any person even mildly politically aware would interpret that as the trouble Hillary got into involving the email usage of a private server while she was SoS. Which was criticized by her own department investigators. To which she apologized for.


To say that you meant "her emails" to mean the hacking of the DNC server emails, involving not Hillary as much as DWS and others in the DNC and their bias and machinations against Sanders? As Donna Brazile laid it out? Quite the stretch. And besides....WHY WOULDN'T HE BE PISSED ABOUT THAT? I thought he was way too nice about it personally.

[LongtimeAZDem]

142. No, I'm recalling exactly what happened from the time Clinton won a delegate majority

until the convention. None of Clinton's enemies split hairs about which issue they slammed her on; it was constant, and brutal, and Sanders was an active participant.

And. as a side note, I am sick of hearing about "DNC bias"; god forbid the Democratic party took steps to nominate a Democrat.

[LiberalLovinLug]

146. Sure okay. Us and them.

And the "us" is not D's vs. R's. To you its singularly your own candidate, against everyone else, including other D's, or those that ran as D's with the blessing of the party. Everyone else is the "enemy". And so you lump the most vile Trumpist propagandist like Conway or Hannity with Sanders and anyone one of his supporters at the time, which was as I said 48% of delegates at one time and they haven't gone away. And you pretend in your mind that none of any of those people "split hairs" about any topic or fake news conspiracy theory on Hillary.

If you have any examples of baseless accusations, or piling on by Sanders during that time, on her email scandal or Benghazi or Seth Rich's "murder", or a pizza parlor child sex ring, white water, or anything at all, maybe you should put your pen where your mouth is and put up a link if you want to be taken seriously.

[LongtimeAZDem]

151. OK

Bernie Sanders to address convention amid drama over leaked emails

[LiberalLovinLug]

156. Thank's for that link! It proves my point.

But you still said "her emails". Who is "her"? Debbie Wasserman Schultz? You must admit that whenever anyone ever referred to "her emails" it was about Clinton's emails, not the DNC, unless you always refer to the DNC organization in the feminine.

And again, thanks for that link. It is a reminder at the incredible restraint of Bernie Sanders response, when he found out. Because he bit his tongue in the interest of the party, and Hillary, winning. which was admirable considering what was said in those emails


Sanders issued a statement Sunday saying Wasserman Schultz "has made the right decision for the future of the Democratic Party."

"While she deserves thanks for her years of service, the party now needs new leadership that will open the doors of the party and welcome in working people and young people," Sanders said. "The party leadership must also always remain impartial in the presidential nominating process, something which did not occur in the 2016 race."

In appearances on talk shows earlier Sunday, Sanders had again called for Wasserman Schultz’s resignation but said Democrats should focus on defeating GOP nominee Donald Trump, whom he called “perhaps the worst Republican candidate that I’ve seen in my lifetime.”

“We have to elect Secretary Clinton, who on every single issue — fighting for the middle class, on health care, on climate change — is a far, far superior candidate to Trump,” Sanders said on Meet the Press. “That’s where I think the focus has got to be.”

[R B Garr]

159. Thanks for calling out the revisionist history.

We all know the facts are that Sanders was eliminated early and the ensuing contentious lingering unnecessary primary and the convention drama damaged our candidate in the general. Those are the facts.

[shanny]

19. Amen.

[musicblind]

29. I don't recall PUMAs crashing the convention in 2008

And while there, giving public interviews threatening to support Jill Stein.

Two of my best friends voted for Stein because Sanders did not win the nomination. So don't come at me with claims that all Sanders supporters backed Clinton. That's simply not true.

We have videotape and statistics backing that up. There weren't nearly as many PUMAs as there were disgruntled Sanders supporters. You can check my registration date. I was here for both and one did not hold a candle to the other.

[Dennis Donovan]

37. I do... it was extremely contentious up to the roll call

...but she, to her credit, threw her support to Obama, JUST AS BERNIE did in 2016.

[LongtimeAZDem]

67. Clinton did it right away; Sanders waited until the last minute. As to the "contentious convention

Judging from public opinion polls and my own observations on the convention floor, Clinton's most ardent backers overwhelmingly followed her enthusiastic endorsement of Obama. PUMA's threats never materialized. No Clinton delegates led a walkout during the convention or tried to shout over speakers.

https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2016/7/28/12302406/bernie-or-busters-nothing-like-pumas

[Catch2.2]

116. There were a number of states...

that Bernie won. During the convention, however, the superdelegates went against the will of the people and put their votes towards Hilary. West Virginia is a prime example. Bernie won all the counties yet the superdelegates went for Hilary. Maybe that was why Bernie waited because he needed to see how the superdelegates voted. Maybe he wasn't just being difficult!

[R B Garr]

157. Sanders was eliminated early on. That is just a fact.

Neither Obama or Clinton badmouthed Democrats to distinguish themselves. No revisionist history.

[LongtimeAZDem]

42. Or planning a "far-a-thon"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/sanders-fans-plan-dnc-fart-protest-clinton-nomination-n611596

[louis c]

77. I guess "what aboutism" isn't confined to just Trumpists.

[Dennis Donovan]

82. No, no false equivalencies involved

I just remember, as an Obama supporter, how ugly things got.

[Trumpocalypse]

96. I had a big problem with the PUMAS in 08

But they didn't help elect McCain.

And it is fair to say that Sanders supporters didn't elect Trump.

The problem is Sanders using the resources of a party that he refuses to contribute to.

[Dennis Donovan]

97. Because Obama lead McCain by 10 points (give or take a few)

Secretary Clinton led TRUMP (of all people) by 2-3 points. Was that all Russia?

[Trumpocalypse]

126. Could be.

But when 90% of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton, it is hard to blame them for her defeat.

[Dennis Donovan]

130. ...ask the PUMAs who they voted for in 2K8

All of this, at least from my perspective (Dem OP since 1972/McGovern) is NOT showing party unity, when compared post convention-2008 vs 2016.

[Trumpocalypse]

132. Agreed

But Obama won in 08 so the PUMAS didn't matter.

[honest.abe]

118. The PUMAS were racists and likely supported by RW operatives.

Nothing to do with the crap Bernie and his gang did in 2016.

[Cha]

134. Now you're just deflecting.. not working.

[Dennis Donovan]

137. Apparently so, or you wouldn't have replied?

Look, Cha. We're on the same side, but just stop bashing Bernie? Every Democratic candidate

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Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government, and as such we expect our members to support and vote for Democrats at election time. Rare exceptions are granted at the sole discretion of the DU Administrators. (Current exceptions: None.)

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Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).
Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders) )

...has a shot. Let'a work together, whomever the nominee is?

[Cha]

140. BS is being vetted like

every other Democratic Candidate is.. no exceptions.

You don't have to post the rules for me.. I know them inside out.

[lapucelle]

20. ---

Link to tweet

[ProfessorPlum]

23. I'll bet that very few of them were Democrats

. . . so, probably not votes that Clinton had a strong change at anyway.

It also implies that the vast majority (80-90%) of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton. So, those numbers kind of cut both ways.

[Dennis Donovan]

26. Unconfirmed twitter account?

C'mon. Each of these posts are bumming the fuck out of me. Like, you didn't notice the ratfuckery of 2016...

And, please post *something* showing Secretary Clinton campaigned hard in PA, MI, WI, but was bested due to misinformation. Please?

[lapucelle]

41. ...

The Bernie voters who defected to Trump, explained by a political scientist

In several key states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan — the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trump’s margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.

Link to tweet

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

Sanders Voters Tipped the Election to Trump

https://politicalwire.com/2017/08/23/sanders-voters-tipped-election-trump/

Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

indeed.

[Dennis Donovan]

43. That made all the difference in the world!

Thanks!

[zipplewrath]

48. "Defectors"

The name implies that somehow they would have voted for HRC under ANY circumstances. These were most likely the modern day "Reagan Democrats". I don't think HRC ever had a chance with the, regardless of Bernie. They liked Bernie for the same reason they like Trump. Because it pissed off the HRC supporters.

[lapucelle]

55. That's a good argument for closed primaries. N/T

[zipplewrath]

60. Yup

Of course closed primaries don't give one much suggestion about how they'll do in the general. Open ones give evidence of the ability to attract independents to the candidate.

[lapucelle]

61. Open primaries give Republicans an opportunity to meddler

and the media an opportunity to stoke phony, but lucrative narratives

[zipplewrath]

63. Among other things

I'm fairly agnostic on the topic because in alot of states one can change their affiliation between the primaries and the general. 'Pubs can meddle anyway. The media always seems to find a way to push their narrative.

[LanternWaste]

57. Odd you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.

it's ironic in that your own consistent use of simplistic anecdotal evidence is tempered by your indictments of others doing the same.

Please, indeed...

[Progressive dog]

40. I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers were correct

Trump and the Russians spent a lot of effort pushing for Sanders and against the DEemocratic party.

[LongtimeAZDem]

30. The historical record is different

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/sanders-delegates-reluctant-to-shift-support-732146243860

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/07/watch-an-msnbc-host-confront-bernie-sanders-delegates-about-denial.html

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-news/watch/sanders-delegates-speak-out-732336195815

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/02/jill-stein-sanders-supporters-green-party

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/07/25/pro-sanders_protester_i_prefer_donald_trump_to_hillary_clinton_trump_is_less_dangerous.html

[Dennis Donovan]

38. Google PUMA 2008...

Selective memory?

[LongtimeAZDem]

44. I remember the PUMAs well. Two points make them irrelevant

One, Clinton did her best to bring them around, unlike Sanders, and

Two, they didn't lose the election for us.

All your whataboutism doesn't change the fact that Sanders and his followers trashed the Democratic party and helped give us Trump.

[ProfessorPlum]

46. so people who were Sanders delegates ended up supporting Trump

is that what you are alleging?

Sure, his delegates were disappointed. Anyone would be.

[LongtimeAZDem]

54. A large number of them publicly said they'd vote for Stein, which has the same effect

They said so, emphatically, on TV. Repeatedly.

[LanternWaste]

50. Even more anecdotal (alleged) evidence

(I'd instruct others to cite my work for me too... but in my case,m it's laziness rather than an inability to support my premise with objective evidence)

[yardwork]

72. Well, I personally know quite a few in real life who wrote in Bernie.

They live in college towns in the Midwest. Their votes in the GE definitely helped Trump win. Is that Bernie's fault? Well, I don't feel that he was appropriately supportive of Clinton in the GE.

[Dennis Donovan]

73. Had nothing to do with a lack of campaigning in the rust belt?

[yardwork]

148. Actually, no. These are highly educated people. They don't need campaign rallies to vote.

These folks vote regularly. They wouldn't have attended a campaign rally and didn't need one to remind them to vote.

These folks I know were convinced by Bernie's surrogates of a lot of lies about Hillary and the DNC. Blatant, ridiculous lies.

[MyNameGoesHere]

92. But her Pumas!

[Catch2.2]

114. Thank you!

I don't know one Bernie supporter that did not vote for Hilary!

[ProfessorPlum]

16. my sense (not backed by data at the moment) is that Sanders supporters who were Democrats

voted for Clinton in the general in large part.

I don't have any numbers on Sanders supporters who were republicans and/or independents originally. Not really sure what those people "should" have done, or whether people on DU have much of a say in that.

[Dennis Donovan]

27. Every single one I knew did...

[ProfessorPlum]

33. me as well. Most of the people I knew weren't for Sanders because he was anti-establishment

but rather because he was pro-people. The exact opposite of Trump.

[Stellar]

45. So did I. nt

[LakeArenal]

32. Also without generous media support from Russia

[Progressive dog]

36. I'm sure that a well past retirement age

senior will not have changed since 2016. His opponents better hope that they've never done anything at all, even running a highly rated charity was used against Hillary.

[redstatebluegirl]

75. Very true.

[Paladin]

79. +1000.

[garybeck]

100. not true at all

he gracefully gave the nomination to hillary and supported her and encouraged people to vote for her.

stop inciting division for no reason

[Thekaspervote]

107. Yup!! Lots of great candidates ..not BS

[Soph0571]

113. That was the point I was about to make

The way he ran his campaign made sure his most ardent supporters did not show out for the nominee. Unforgivable IMO. And I guarantee he will pull that shit again. It is what a certain generation of 'far' left white men do. I see Bernie and raise you Corbyn. Same shit different country

[OrwellwasRight]

153. Your failure to address the actual campaign of the actual Democratic candidate is exhausting.

Let me recommend a book for you so that you can learn that candidates should take some responsibility for their own performance in the election:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JWDWP6W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I learned a lot about the failures of the Clinton campaign from this book. And I learned that the outcome of the general was not "Bernie's fault." I don't see how that helps strengthen our party to keep pretending it was. Let's pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get ready for 2020.

Please move on from the relentless Bernie Blaming. It's no longer relevant or interesting.

[radius777]

173. +1. Look all over social media, many are toxic.

Most Sanders supporters were Dems who voted for Hillary in the GE.

But there is a toxic and vocal element of the populist left which has some degree of crossover with the populist right/Trumpers - and this is evident in their hatred of Dems/Hillary/Obama, hatred for so-called "identity politics", and even outright sexism/racism.

[irresistable]

3. It bothers Democrats here on DU.

Out in the real world, most people do like Bernie.

Maybe that is what they fear

[ProfessorPlum]

6. I've noticed the same

but it's as if who wins the "DU primary" affects the outside world. Which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

[LanternWaste]

10. I'd pretend it's fear as well...

Pretense, not requiring rational thought is much more comforting than analysis.

[LongtimeAZDem]

14. +1

[uponit7771]

49. Most ... WHO !? tia

[irresistable]

85. Apparently you don't know them.

[revmclaren]

88. Not in MY real world.

In mine, most of my family and friends are voting for a candidate that that is and has been a Democrat during their entire political career.

ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.

[ProfessorPlum]

105. if the label is more important than what's inside the package

then by all means vote that way. you are more than entitled to.

[revmclaren]

163. I've seen what's in the Sanders package....

No thanks.

ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.

[Catch2.2]

117. That is my guess too

A lot of hate for Bernie on this site. It seems that the candidate that gets attacked the most, also turns out to be the biggest threat.

[OrwellwasRight]

180. +1

[forklift]

5. Sanders should definitely be in the primaries

He brings a new aspect to the contest and I am considering voting for him.

[BannonsLiver]

8. A new aspect?

He ran last time and has been in congress for 40 years. The bullshit around here sure is getting thick.

[Empowerer]

31. But Pelosi needed to go because we needed "new blood"

The "he's great because he's not ESTABLISHMENT" argument is played out. If you've been in politics for 40 years and are still not part of the "establishment"establishment - you know, been successful in establishing a new way of doing things so that your way is the new "establishment," you haven't been very effective.

Standing outside of the gate yelling may fool some people into thinking you're fighting - but if you've been around this long and are still outside the gate yelling, it's probably time to let someone else lead the fighting (f you ever actually led it at all).

[BannonsLiver]

34. Well said.

[tkmorris]

62. Seems to me that every Liberal I know, self included...

Has been standing outside the gates yelling at the political establishment since long before I was born. We haven't broken them down yet but that doesn't mean the effects aren't felt, or that we plan to stop anytime soon.

[Empowerer]

66. How do you define "political establishment"?

[SoFlaDem]

12. Old resentments die hard...

My concern is that the constant attacks and berating of Sanders and Sander's followers is just likely to push these voters towards the independents because they feel so unwelcomed by the Democrats. I don't think Bernie will get the nomination, and I do think we need his followers if he doesn't.

I personally don't want Bernie to get the nomionation, but I don't want Klobucher either. That will be the last negative you hear me say about either, I just hope everybody focuses on their candidate in the primaries and votes democratic in the end.

[Bradshaw3]

71. Well said

Many won't listen but we need every vote we can get in 2020, not just for the WH but to take the Senate too.

[treestar]

161. Why do they worry about whether they are welcomed or not?

Shouldn't they vote as they see their own best interests? It is not a club. It is an organization to try to win elections.

[SoFlaDem]

185. Should and will are two different things...

Are you going to hang the taking back of the white house on what people "should" do when they vote? If you think about what you wrote, mine may actually be the more practical approach.

[Demsrule86]

13. The issue is while he is in the primaries...some damage could be done to both the party and the

eventual nominee. His candidacy is very divisive.

[trueblue2007]

24. bernie is NOT A DEMOCRAT!!! HE should not be allowed to run or participate in debates

If he isn't a Democrat, AND STAYS A DEMOCRAT, WE DON'T WANT HIM.

[ProfessorPlum]

35. tell it to the national party

if you want them to alter/rig the rules to not let Sanders run.

That's a lot of fear of Sanders and his scary ideas.

[TwilightZone]

53. Expecting candidates who are Democrats to run in the Democratic primary isn't "rigging the rules".

That's a laughable assertion.

[Honeycombe8]

78. I mean, really. +10000. Expecting someone to be a member of the party....

when he's running AGAINST members of the party...I mean, how unreasonable can we BE!

[ProfessorPlum]

104. then it should be easy to get that change made

please proceed

[George II]

89. It's already in the rules. If he doesn't declare himself a Democrat, run as a Democrat, and....

....should he win serve as a Democrat, he will be shut out of Democratic debates, no support from the Democratic Party, no fundraising by the Democratic Party, etc.

[lapucelle]

127. Page 9, Article VI

The term “presidential candidate” herein shall mean any person who, as determined by the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee,

has accrued delegates in the nominating process and plans to seek the nomination,

has established substantial support for their nomination as the Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States,

is a bona fide Democrat whose record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively demonstrates that the candidate is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the United States,

and will participate in the Convention in good faith

snip=============================================================

At the time a presidential candidate announces their candidacy publicly, they must publicly affirm that they are a Democrat.

Each candidate pursuing the Democratic nomination shall affirm, in writing, to the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee that they:

A. are a member of the Democratic Party;

B. will accept the Democratic nomination;and

C. will run and serve as a member of the Democratic Party.

https://www.demrulz.org/wp-content/files/2020_Call_for_the_Convention_12.21.18_w-attachments.pdf

[stonecutter357]

39. taxes please !

[Andy823]

56. I agree nt

[LanternWaste]

47. One imagines joining the Democratic party would also resulting in 'solving itself'

One imagines joining the Democratic party would also resulting in 'solving itself' as well.

But I can certainly understand the reticence to deny more than one solution to your self-defined problem.

If one only has a hammer, nuts and bolts become inconvenient.

[ProfessorPlum]

51. write him a sincere letter explaining why he should do that

and I'm sure he'll give it the consideration it deserves.

Or, better yet, ask the national party not to let him run. That will prove the inferiority of his ideas.

[OhZone]

64. I sincerely hope -

Democrats avoid infighting, and take the opportunity of using the primaries and debates to take down non-Democrats, like Trump -


















And Bernie.

[dubyadiprecession]

69. We don't want to hear him whining like last time, when he lost.

[Honeycombe8]

76. Can one be "unofficially" registered as a Democrat? I did not know that. nt

[dogman]

99. I live in Illinois.

Can you tell me how to register as a Democrat?

[kimbutgar]

80. He needs to run as an independent

Bernie only uses the DemocrTic party. Since he thinks he is idenlent he needs to run as an independent.

[SylviaD]

87. Bingo. Why should I support this leech? I have many DEM candidates to choose from. nt

[tazkcmo]

144. Not a good idea

Like it or not, Sen. Sanders is very popular in the real world and I feel comfortable guaranteeing a GOPee victory mo matter who their candidate is.

I am not commenting in any way about the appropriateness or desirability to allow him to run as a Democrat just that if he is to run, and he is, it's best to have him do it as a Democrat so as not to split the liberal vote.

[kimbutgar]

162. But he's not a Democrat but an independent.

There is an "I " by his name not a "D". Why didn't he change to the Democratic Party after the election. And why did he vote against the Russian sanctions in June of 2017 knowing Russia interfered in the 2016 election? Though I think senators Sanders makes good points I don't feel the Bern like I used to after this vote.

[tazkcmo]

174. I understand that.

Would you prefer Drumpf for another four years? That's what you'll get if Sanders runs 3rd party/Indy.

[kimbutgar]

184. If he does run as an Independent then his name will become Nader part 2

How many people think positive of Nader nowadays?

[tazkcmo]

186. So he's damned if he does

And damned if he doesn't. I'm done.

[stonecutter357]

83. The Democratic Primaries forum are open !

[Kurt V.]

84. Doesn't bother me. it will sort itself out. he'll run as a dem

running as an indy will certainly siphon off votes however.

[SylviaD]

86. Bernie should NOT run. I will be voting for and supporting DEMOCRATS nt

[pampango]

90. He caucuses with the Democrats. He votes against Trump/GOP legislation more than many Democrats.

The studies I have seen are that 75% of those who supported him in the 2016 primary ended up voting for Hillary. Would it have been better if the party had excluded him from the primary? There is no guarantee that we would have seen that 75% vote for Hillary in the general election.

If we exclude him this time around, with his proven popularity with many liberal voters (he and his ideas were more of an unknown quantity, at least with me, last time around) and the popularity of the ideas that he ran on last time, there is a risk there.

[Terminally_Chill]

91. the Bernie Bots went live on Reddit yesterday..

Harris seems to be their primary target, O'Rourke their secondary.

[Chakaconcarne]

94. Good point....

but for some reason I don't think that will prevent people here from ripping on him.

[hughee99]

95. The DNC passed a rule last summer that only Dems can run

In the Dem presidential primary. If I understand correctly, that means he can’t run unless he becomes an official Dem. It obviously bothered the party leaders enough that they passed the rule.

[ProfessorPlum]

102. then the issue is solved

[pdsimdars]

101. Right, if the name means more to you than the substance . . don't vote for him. Easy peasy.

[ProfessorPlum]

103. thank you

it should be as easy as that

[NastyRiffraff]

108. Wow! Thanks for the tip!

I never knew I didn't have to vote for Sanders in the primaries! You learn something new every day on DU.

[CTAtheist]

109. Democrats are the Big Tent Party, I thought? (long post)

As long as voter registration determines which Party you belong to, and as long as people can freely change their voter registration, I feel that making a big deal about Bernie being/not being a Democrat is, IMHO, wasted conversation.

For me, a party has a platform, and the party's leadership (generally) supports or believes in that platform. But that doesn't mean every politician running for office registered in that party supports every pillar of that platform 100%. We know of plenty of pro-life Dems, pro-gun Dems, even tax-cut Dems.

When I consider my Vote (tm), I make my decision on a person's positions, not the letter next to their name. Now, we all know there is never going to be an (R) that gets my vote, because there are no pro-choice, gun safety, tax-equality, gender-equality, etc., etc. Republicans. Ever. Like, Never Ever.

But I am not going to rule in, or rule out, a candidate due to a lack of a (D). Again, its just that the ones which have the (D) always align better to my beliefs then any (R) or even any (I) I've ever been presented with as a choice. I really do not care about Bernie's I-D-I-D swapping. Nor do I care about someone's age, race, gender, etc. It's about their positions & policies, period.

I am seeing totally different choices this time around. I will not, CANNOT embrace any kind of "loyalty" to any candidate. Not Bernie, not Hillary, not Biden - no one. Each election is a whole new ball game for me. Not only is the mix of candidates different, but the opponent is different (candidate Trump vs. Train-wreck Trump), the situation in the world is different, the media is different, even the people of the U.S. are different. I take each Democratic primary as a new and unique event. I don't "rehash". I investigate, evaluate, and determine who I think would best represent my interests in the context of those other things (the current world situation, etc.).

So, I have not yet been able to even begin to start my evaluation of everyone who has announced so far. But, I haven't eliminated anyone, nor will I, ever. I will learn as much as I can, and hone my aim, slowly but surely, at the candidate that emerges as my top choice. That is how we all should do it, IMHO.

[ProfessorPlum]

111. good post

I would only add that animus towards any particular candidate at this stage is also unhelpful. And is unlikely to change a lot of minds.

[Chicago1980]

110. Just like they didn't last time.

If memory serves...

[LisaM]

112. Does he want to divide the Democrats or have someone beat Trump?

In my opinion, he can't do both and we're going to be right back to where we were. Any votes he siphons off will be Democratic - if he runs in the general as an Independent.

[krkaufman]

125. Independent in the General ??

Where did Howard Schultz get inserted into the thread?

[LisaM]

147. I could see Sanders staging a third-party run if he doesn't win.

I don't think he gives a hoot about the Democratic party.

[earthshine]

164. Bernie has said numerous times he will not EVER run for President as an Independent

precisely because it would split the Dem party.

Bernie views the Dem party as the ONLY means of stopping Republicans.

Your opinions are offered without any evidence.

[no_hypocrisy]

176. Splitting democratic votes is likely why Trump appeared to be gracious when

Bernie announced his candidacy. He anticipates that Bernie would "go independent" and allow a re-election.

As usual, Trump has guessed wrong.

[krkaufman]

124. What are you for?!?

Place just seems littered with posts/threads focusing on what people are against, rather than what they're for.

Build a better mousetrap, candidates ... and supporters.

[Dennis Donovan]

143. Explain your position first before demanding others declare theirs.

Only out of politeness?

[sdfernando]

145. I am a Democrat

and I vote for Democrats, not rethuglicans, not greenies, not independents....DEMOCRATS.

If Bernie wants to be the nominee of the Democratic Party then he should change his registration and become a party member.

That being said, if by chance the Democratic Party nominates Bernie as our candidate for the Presidency, then I will vote for him....but he will not get a vote from me otherwise.

[Little Star]

149. Yep! I'm with you 100%.

[ProfessorPlum]

150. That's exactly the same as every other candidate

You'll vote for one. The rest you won't. I don't really care about your reasons. Sanders situation is therefore exactly the same as any other candidate who won't get your vote.

[sdfernando]

167. I don't see it that way

I will carefully consider all of the Democratic candidates, weigh their positions and decide on which I like best.

I will give no such consideration to Bernie.

I don’t dislike Bernie. I think he has done some good things and moved the Democratic Party to the left. I think he still has good works in him. But I don’t think he should try to usurp the organization and resources of a political party he isn’t a member of. That’s not fairplay, not good sportsmanship so to say.

[Gothmog]

160. Here are the DNC rule and oath

This is the actual rule that governs whether sanders can run as a member of the Democratic party https://www.thegreenpapers.com/P20/2019-01-03-2020_Call_for_the_Convention_12.21.18_w-attachments.pdf

The term “presidential candidate” herein shall mean any person who, as determined by the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, has accrued delegates in the nominating process and plans to seek the nomination, has established substantial support for their nomination as the Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States, is a bona fide Democrat whose record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively demonstrates that the candidate is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith. At the time a presidential candidate announces their candidacy publicly, they must publicly affirm that they are a Democrat. Each candidate pursuing the Democratic nomination shall affirm, in writing, to the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee that they:

A. are a member of the Democratic Party;

B. will accept the Democratic nomination; and

C. will run and serve as a member of the Democratic Party.

This requirement of written affirmation shall not supplant any necessary qualifications a candidate must satisfy at the state level, but is in addition to such affirmations required by individual states and territories. The written affirmation shall be done via an approved format by the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee appended to this Call

There is an oath that sanders and other candidates will have to take
https://www.thegreenpapers.com/P20/2019-01-03-2020_Call_for_the_Convention_12.21.18_w-attachments.pdf

Presidential Candidate Written Affirmation

Pursuant to Article IV of the Call for the 2020 Democratic National Convention, I hereby affirm that, upon publicly announcing my candidacy for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States in the 2020 election, I am a member of the Democratic Party. I will run as a Democrat, accept the nomination of my Party, and I will serve as a Democrat if elected. I understand that signing this form does not supplant any legal or Party requirement by any state or territory to qualify for ballot placement in that jurisdiction.

Further, I acknowledge that in submitting this form to the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, I am subject to the provisions of Rule 13.K of the Delegate Selection Rules for the 2020 Democratic National Convention and Article VI of the Call for the 2020 Democratic National Convention that authorize the National Chairperson to determine whether a presidential candidate has established substantial support for their nomination as the Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States, is a bona fide Democrat whose record of public service, accomplishments, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively demonstrate that the candidate is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith.
___________________

NOTARY AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF ______________
COUNTY OF _______________
I, ____________________________________, a Notary Public, do hereby certify that on this ____day of ___________________, 20____, personally appeared before me ______________________________, known to me to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument, and swore and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purpose and in the capacity therein expressed, and that the statements contained therein are true and correct. _______________________________________________ Notary Public, State of __________________ Name, Typed or Printed: __________________________________________ My Commission Expires: ___________________________

[MrsCoffee]

177. That might be logical if there were no open primaries.

[MaryMagdaline]

182. Agreed

[Gothmog]

183. sanders has not yet signed the oath

Link to tweet

[Yonnie3]

187. Locking ...

Admin has asked that we lock all active primary threads in General Discussion.

If you like, please repost in the Democratic Primaries forum and continue there.