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[DemocratSinceBirth]

This message was self-deleted by its author (DemocratSinceBirth) on Tue Feb 26, 2019, 05:02 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[area51]

1. There is a little bit of info

at this website.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. It doesn't say anything about share holders.

1 trillion dollars is a lot.

[safeinOhio]

9. Smart investors will

short those stocks and make a trillion

[elleng]

2. Change happens,

people adapt.

[rampartc]

2. maybe they could learn to code?

[Ms. Toad]

4. . . . googling to figure out what MFA stands for n/t

[LAS14]

10. Any luck? I find multi-factor authentication and the Museum of Fine Arts. nt

Last edited Sat Feb 23, 2019, 03:08 PM - Edit history (1)

[Ms. Toad]

28. I got master of fine arts and Missouri Farmers Association

when I added insurance to my search.

I'm pretty sure the OP was referring to Medicare For All. But that was not obvious to me at the time I went looking - but following a link added by another poster got me to the idea it might be Medicare For All

[LAS14]

74. Ah. Yes, Medicare For All. Thanks! nt

[Luciferous]

35. Assuming Medicare for all...

[uponit7771]

6. Like FedEx and UPS we have nothing to worry about

[Mr.Bill]

7. Private insurance can still exist.

I'm on Medicare, and I still spend over $200 a month for a supplemental policy from a private company. Medicare also does not cover dental and optometric, so private companies can still sell insurance for that. Also, most large insurance companies sell other insurance besides health insurance. Some may choose to keep private health insurance rather than use Medicare. Sure, insurance companies will have to adapt, possible merge with other companies and some may have to downsize, but all of those thing are common in the business world.

[dflprincess]

64. I'm hoping a MFA plan will be better than what Medicare

Currently offers.

I turned 65 last year, still working so I'm on my employer's plan. I know I'm in an unique situation but the plan I'm on covers more and costs me less (both premiums and other out of pockets) than Medicare will. I was planning to work until 70 but I now I may stay until I'm found dead in my cube so I can keep the coverage I have.

That said I do sincerely hope we finally move to some kind of national plan that actually gives us access to care not just "coverage".

[Voltaire2]

68. Both the senate and house versions over

The last decade have eliminated all of that nonsense. A single comprehensive plan for everyone.

But rich people could still buy supplemental insurance for stuff like private rooms.

[dflprincess]

72. Love it

I really don't want to work until I die In my cube.

[Triloon]

8. They'll have to find new jobs,

and new investments. No big deal, it happens every day. Hard to figure out how to compensate an industry for fleecing the American public over all these decades. I'm thinking they've already made all the money off our infirmities that they have coming. So, good bye and good riddance.

[LAS14]

11. It doesn't happen to a whole industry in one swell foop.

All the other industries I can think of went through a long period of decline. It's not a nothing issue. People who work in insurance are real people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. People who hold those shares and whose shares are held in their pensions are real people.

They will need to be compensated.

[Voltaire2]

13. no they won't.

Certainly not shareholders. Investments have risks. Stock investments have lots of risks.

Should something be done to ease transition to other jobs for workers? Yes we should have a strong unemployment insurance system, and a strong job retraining program, for all workers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. How are shareholders different from holders of private property?

The government can't appropriate your property, especially without due process of law. Equity Residential is a publicly traded real estate trust that invests in apartments. Could the government appropriate the properties in that trust making the shares worthless?

[Voltaire2]

18. Their property is not be taken.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. They will be forbidden to sell health insurance policies.

[Voltaire2]

21. Not true, but even if it were, that is not 'property being taken'.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. It would be no different than telling insurers they can't sell other types of insurance.

The government can not prevent you from selling any product or service, in the absence of compensation and due process of law.

[Voltaire2]

24. so for example the assault weapons ban in the 90s

was an unconstitutional taking of property?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. No. But banning all guns clearly would be a violation of the 2nd Amendment.

[Voltaire2]

30. MFA would ban certain types of insurance

how is that different from the assault weapons ban?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Do some companies only provide health insurance?

[Voltaire2]

32. I guess they should have diversified.

But they will still be able to sell supplemental insurance for things not covered by MFA.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. What other property can the government take for not being sufficiently diversified?

[Voltaire2]

34. Alcohol.

See prohibition.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Prohibition was repealed.

A more apt analogy would be government resurrecting prohibition and closing down all breweries and distilleries and robbing a 1.6 trillion dollar industry of its revenue.

I would support paying the shareholders of private insurance corporations market value for their stocks in the transition from the system we have now to single payer. No nation that I'm aware of that has single payer replaced as large a private insurance market as we have now. That's the rub.

[Voltaire2]

41. So what? There was no compensation.

Nor was there any for the assault weapon ban.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. So your examples are a law that was repealed 86 years and a ban on

So your examples are a law that was repealed 86 years ago and a ban on weapons that affected less than five percent of gun sales for expropriating shareholders which include public and private pensions of nearly 1 trillion dollars of wealth?


What would the affect on the economy be? The market loses lots of money in downturns but as people are quick to say those are paper losses that will come back. These shares are gone forever.

[Voltaire2]

51. 1971 amphetamines moved to class II.

The huge market for legal prescription amphetamines was abolished.

No compensation.

The examples clearly demonstrate that the federal government can regulate businesses by prohibiting specific types of products without compensation.

Find another roadblock.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I said I would be willing to pay the shareholders in the transition.

"Find another roadblock."

No need to get snippy, "lulz."



And if you believe rescheduling amphetamines is tantamount to eliminating the entire pharmaceutical industry there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Voltaire2]

55. The insurance industry will be fine.

Even the health insurance segment will survive, as it does in other countries, selling supplemental insurance.

It’s a tired talking point. Find a different roadblock. Perhaps “people love their shitty employer insurance”?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. How will they survive if you appropriated their main product without compensating them?

It’s a tired talking point. Find a different roadblock. Perhaps “people love their shitty employer insurance”?

No need to get snippy, "lulz" (REDUX)

[Voltaire2]

58. 1978 CFC ban.

No compensation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. It was replaced by other compounds.

It didn't result in the expropriation of one trillion dollars worth of wealth.

But we're making a kind of progress. You were able able to respond to me, sans vitriol, anger, and invective. If anything our lil chat is making you a kinder and gentler person.


P.S. The roadblock charge is demonstrably untrue. I already said I would pay them to go away, just like coal miners,

[Voltaire2]

60. It eliminated the entire CFC industry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Scale.

One trillion dollars of investor money, including public and private pensions,is invested in it. United Health Care alone has nearly three times the market cap of Ford, Chrysler, and Genera Motors.

[Voltaire2]

66. Oh so now compensation for taking property

Which was your original claim, that this was a taking that had to be compensated, only applies if your property has enough value?

The US whaling industry was banned in 1973. No compensation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Of course scale is important. One trillion dollars of property is substantial.

[Voltaire2]

70. Legally it is irrelevant.

Either a prohibition eliminating a product is a taking of property from shareholders of companies that are adversely affected or it isn’t.

It isn’t.

[Cold War Spook]

63. No they don't.

Are all the people who owned stock in coal mines and plants and those that worked there compensated? What about the buggy whip companies? It happens all the time. Even if MFA comes about it won't happen quickly. Look at all the robots that are used in manufacturing. President Carter "There are many things in life that are not fair."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. The government closed coal mines and banned buggy whips?

Coal mining has decreased because of decreased demand, ditto for buggy whips. If the government banned them I would argue they be compensated too.

In fact I would pay the tobacco industry to go away. The sad thing is they will just sell their poison somewhere else.

[Cold War Spook]

73. I doubt the government would ban private health insurance.

Canada hasn't.

[Voltaire2]

14. it is not a whole industry. It is a segment of the insurance industry.

[LAS14]

15. OK, but I bet "health insurance" is big enough to count as an industry on its own.

[Voltaire2]

20. I'll bet making exaggerated claims is one way to throw up bogus roadblocks.

The health insurance sector wouldn't go away entirely, it would just be smaller.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I am not against single payer. I am against taking away people's property without compensation.

[Voltaire2]

25. lulzd

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Are stocks not property?

"lulzd."

[Luciferous]

37. It isn't any different than any other company going out of business.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. It's different because the government is telling you that you can't do business anymore.

[Voltaire2]

42. MFA would prohibit a specific type of

Insurance policy. Companies selling those types of policies are free to sell other types if policies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. They just can's sell health insurance which is what they were chartered to do.

[Voltaire2]

56. Sure they can.

They can sell supplemental insurance.

[jberryhill]

77. Are you joking?

You think there are people over 65 in this country who don't pay for health insurance?

Your argument that this is a 5th Amendment taking, requiring compensation, is absurd.

Perhaps you can remind me of the compensation the government made to:

Makers of lead additives in gasoline and paint.

Makers of asbestos.

Makers of DDT.

Huge investments, manpower and production facilities were required for those things, which the government outright banned, unlike health insurance, which will live on in supplemental plans, vision, dental, long term care, etc..

[brooklynite]

49. Why? There'll still be insurance.

Medicare Parts B, C and D are all private supplements.

There'll also be home insurance, car insurance, boat insurance, life insurance, accidental death and dismemberment insurance.

[onethatcares]

17. ask the coal miners how they coped

should it be the same?

[walkingman]

29. It amazes me when people defend our corrupt and heartless healthcare system.

I've seen through the years apply also to fossil fuel companies (I live in Texas) even when they are poisoning our air and water. It is not by accident that MD Anderson is located in Houston, Tx. At some point I pray that people will realize that it is up to us as citizens to decide how we live and deal with quality of life issues. What would make us any different than the rest of the industrialized world?

Bottom line - it is time for change. We can not continue on the meaningless and heartless healthcare situation in America. It is just a matter of time.

[gibraltar72]

36. Ask Buggywhip manufacturers.

[MichMan]

40. I don't recall hearing about the government outlawing the use of horses

When was that legislation passed?

[MrsCoffee]

43. Wasn't this the argument against ending the coal industry?

I'm not really seeing a difference, but I could just be naive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. As long as the coal miners are found new work and the owners and shareholders compensated

As long as the coal miners are found new work and the owners and shareholders compensated I wouldn't have a problem if the benefits of eliminating coal extraction exceed the risks.


One thing you will find is as strange as it is to some folks is that there are folks who like mining coal.

[MrsCoffee]

50. Thanks.

I appreciate your perspective.

And yes, that is strange to me, but probably not the strangest I could think of, lol.

[tonedevil]

69. I feel sorry for anyone who...

likes mining coal as they are certain to get black lung if they persist. That said, they are certainly free to mine if they wish, but the burning of coal has to be stopped, like 20 years ago.

[Turbineguy]

45. It would most likely need to be phased in.

You can't simply dump millions of new clients into the existing medicare administration system.

[Midnightwalk]

47. You mean like unemployment compensation?

That’s all they are entitled to.

I’ve said several time in replies that we have to remove 1 trillion dollars from healthcare to get our costs in line with every other country. The math is simple. We spend 3.5 trillion on health care and spend twice as much per capita than ither countries.

But i say that as a reason that we will have to overcome a lot of opposition and might have to move incrementally. I didn’t expect to see demands for compensation to the industry. The people can get unemployment. Screw the shareholders.

The other reason to move incrementally is we will get it wrong in ways we cannot predict. Let people buy in as a first step and let’s figure out how to handle that expansion first. We need to think in terms of what to do now and where we want to get to in 5 and 10 years. We cannot afford to piss off the majority of people who have employer plans by immediately putting them in a system that can’t handle it.

[theophilus]

52. I don't know. They will have good healthcare though. n't

[Autumn]

54. There will still be a need for private insurance with MFA, they wont all go away. nt

[Jake Stern]

62. Suppose they'll do what employees and shareholders of telegraph companies

the Pony Express and Zepplin manufacturers had to do - dust themselves off and find a new place to work or park their money.

[pecosbob]

71. Simply allow them to continue selling their health 'insurance' (I call it extortion)

there is no need to 'outlaw' it. Currently, health insurance is the only way most can afford health care...leave health insurance for the one percent. If average people don't see it as having value, it will wither and die without customers willing to pay for it. Medicaire for all would be no different in theory than a Public Option...it would simply provide a low cost alternative to what is now a monopoly.


As for the shareholders, given that half the country is talking about the industry going the way of buggy whip manufacturers and their shares possibly becoming worthless, I might suggest DIVESTING!

[WeekiWater]

75. Why would it not create more jobs in the industry.

More people will be insured, more claims filled, and more fraud to look out for. It’s not a retraction of the industry. It’s a retraction of private insurance. As for the investors, those who have been in for some time will make out well. Others, not so much. Many of these companies will still be in the health insurance business and many are already diversified in the products they offer.

[AllaN01Bear]

76. thanks for clarifing mfa . was about to ask you that .

[Vinca]

78. Insurance companies wouldn't have to go out of business. They could sell super, duper, premium

policies to supplement the basic healthcare provided by MFA. The important thing to remember is that under MFA, everyone would have access to decent medical care without begging or going bankrupt. Maybe if insurance companies and their companion industry big pharma hadn't been greedy and screwed everyone over for decades, they wouldn't have this concern. Fuck them.