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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs it fair to associate "Johns" as "human/sex traffickers"?
For example, society doesn't associate illegal drug users with drug trafficking.
I'm just looking for opinions, not trying to undermine the issue of human trafficking.
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50 Shades Of Blue
(11,391 posts)I feel the same way about illegal drug users.
theaocp
(4,581 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Of course, all users of illegal drugs are THE reason that industry exists.
What I don't buy is the totalitarian, black-and-white nonsense that all sex providers are trafficked. Over the decades I've been acquainted with too many pretty women who've been very pleased to be able to monetize or otherwise profit from their bodies. Most I've known held legal jobs as well, but some were pros who had no intention of retraining for legal jobs with their considerable constraints.
50 Shades Of Blue
(11,391 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Some are in college, some in grad school, a few in professional schools. All are selling sex out of free will and for financial advantages that it provides them. I don't pass judgement on them, it is their choice.
50 Shades Of Blue
(11,391 posts)Maybe the women you cite aren't walking the street offering themselves to strange men like the movie's "heroine" but the grim reality is that the normalization of women selling their bodies to men regardless of the manner is just one more way that the whole of womenkind is reduced to being nothing more than possessors of vaginas that exist solely for men's gratification, abuse, and disposition of.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
DonCoquixote
(13,961 posts)However, there are areas of seelign oneself that frankly do as much harm. I have much less sympathy for many lawyers, many cops, and even models (of both genders) who frankly make it easy for all of us to be product. Yes, a prostitute sells her sex for money, very often as a pawn/ictim of someone running the show, be it a madam or pimp, but if I had my choice between the prostitutes and the Ann Coulters, Laura Ingrahams of the world, I would focus on them, because they will hurt many more women in the ling run.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Without a solid education of family ties. Did you even read what I wrote? I would say that providers that are actively in college, grad school or professional school have decent educations, and those providers ARE out there, even if you want to believe that they are victims, they would likely disagree with you.
Total prohibition has never worked at anytime in history. The attempt in this country led to crime and violence that was much worse than the problem prohibition attempted to solve. Using one's sense of what is moral to dictate to everyone guarantees only one thing, complete failure. I believe that focusing resources where they are most effective better solves the problem, not manufacturing an image that you apply to every provider, even they ones that it does not remotely apply to. Go after sex traffickers, absolutely, but understand how to do that.
BTW, with all respects to the Boston Police Captain, a State level investigator in Maryland had a different take on an article that I read today, his belief was that it is easier to fight trafficking when he didn't have his people chasing after providers that were not being trafficked.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 06:28 PM - Edit history (1)
Judge rules Labor Secretary Acosta, as federal prosecutor, broke law in Jeffrey Epstein underage sex casehttps://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11860881
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's so depressing! Who could possibly think that it's OK to take advantage of them?
58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)There are women, girls and boys that are being trafficked and are living in slavery. Then there is the other sex for sale industry. Believe it or not, the men that use the two are not the same. The men that use to former are cheap and/or brutes that want to get off. The men that use the latter never go close to the former and are ok with paying substantial monetary compensation to providers. The movie "The Scent of a Woman" touched a little on the latter type of sex for pay.
Many people, including a lot here on DU automatically view a man who pays for 100% consensual sex as a loser. I have worked with and got to really know some of those men, their reasons are varied, but none were losers, IMO.
My personal feeling is that police forces and prosecutors would be better served and more effective if they tried to understand the layers of the sex for sale industry, they would be able to identify the abusers better and arrest those people. I read an article this morning where a detective talked about an online thing that had been shut down by the federal government, he pointed out that he was better able to find sex traffickers by reading the ads in that service and when he wanted an ad shut down or to know more about the person that took out the ad, he called the service and got that information, he was able to bust traffickers that way. He pointed out that with the service shutdown, trafficked females and males are now on their own and are likely in a hopeless situation.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I would place money on the fact that every self-righteous poster on this thread has clothing made in a sweat shop. In a place where women are not trafficked for sex, but for other labor. We all know it. We've all seen the news of these places collapsing or burning down. All while the people in them burn or are buried because the doors are locked from the inside.
But we love to change what we wear as often as possible. One might say it's an addiction, a compulsion. And, it's cheap. You KNOW why it's cheap. You just ignore it.
Please feel free to compare the morality of that with the morality of employing a sex-worker or buying drugs. I look forward to the justification for ignoring the treatment of the garment-makers in Asia while at the same time being so concerned with Asian workers trafficked to this country. Which Asian woman counts more?
treestar
(82,383 posts)No woman should have to sell her body. That is very different from a sweat shop. There is no way buying clothes made in a sweat shop has anything in common with some poor woman having no better opportunity then selling her very person. No liberal is ignoring the garment workers. That's a different subject. Right now we are talking about women.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Who do you think is being worked 12-18 hours a day making clothes - women.
Who do you think is being treated like slave to make clothes - women.
Who do you think has no better an opportunity than working in a sweat-shop - women.
The issues are exactly the same whether or not you wish to admit it. The form of labor is the only thing that is different. The desperation and the hopelessness are the same whether or not you wish to admit it. Perhaps selling one's body, the only thing one has left is more soul-crushing than what those women face in the garment factories. I will give you that. But there's not more than a hair's breadth between the two.
No liberal is ignoring the garment workers? Pfft - you've got to be fucking kidding me if you think that's true. I don't see anyone here or in the Me Too movement marching to improve the lot of those women stuck in the garment factories of Asia.
treestar
(82,383 posts)you are ignoring that it is the use of one's very own body, one's private parts, that makes it very different from using a sewing machine.
lame54
(39,771 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)lame54
(39,771 posts)
The Velveteen Ocelot
(130,533 posts)And society does associate illegal drug use with drug trafficking; the users are the demand side and the traffickers are the supply side.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)But I see your point.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(130,533 posts)
Squinch
(59,522 posts)choose to hurt SLAVES when they buy what their traffickers sell.
There's a difference.
And yes, anyone using illegal drugs knows there are mass murderers at work to provide them, but the victims are not, literally, under them. When they consume drugs, they are not, likely, raping anyone.
Johns know now that they are likely buying slaves. They know now that they are, as likely as not, committing rape.
Yes. It is fair.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Is that person hiring a slave?
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)And the Johns have other alternatives handy, so to speak, if they want a release from their urges.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Heroin addicts also have alternatives, like mathadone. But that does not eliminate the heroin addiction problem.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)to other people's urges. You are dehumanizing these women by using the term "sex for sale" and refusing to admit that women's bodies are what is for sale.
It is NOT comparable to handing over a pill for some money.
If men could buy a pill or gadget that could make them come -- no other human being's body involved -- that would be comparable to a drug addict buying a pill to make them high.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)In that instance, both are consensual business transactions.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)Women who are trafficked aren't having consensual sex.
There might be some individual people who are in a position to fully consent to having sex for money.
But the women in this spa, who barely spoke English, and who seemed to make all of their money from tips (the main payment was made to someone else), could not have assured their customers that they were freely consenting. There were red warning flags everywhere -- even in Yelp reviews -- and these men didn't care.
https://www.theledger.com/news/20190223/jupiter-day-spa-customer-reviews-hinted-of-suspicions-of-questionable-practices
“Better still, someone should perhaps investigate this business to check these girls are being paid and not slaves,” the customer wrote. “Something fishy here...”
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)If a working girl is working for herself, then the act is consensual. But many prostitutes are employed by abusive pimps
rampartc
(5,835 posts)years ago when i smoked marijuana an occasional opportinity to buy a pound or several oz would arise. if i had been caught i'm sure i'd have served a lengthy sentence for "trafficking"
somehow i refuse to think of kraft "massaging" anyone.
allgood33
(1,584 posts)
happybird
(5,393 posts)They always have and always will. There's no way to rid the world of them. Humans will always want to get laid and some will want or need to get high. That's just reality.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)John's harm and/or are complicit in harm inflicted on other human beings.
happybird
(5,393 posts)There will always be a demand for sex and alcohol/drugs.
If you believe addicts primarily hurt only themselves, you should attend some AA/NA/Al-Anon meetings. Or talk to my family, or any of the millions of other families who have been completely destroyed by the addiction of one family member.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And while being a family member of a drug addict can be hell, it pales in comparison to being a woman pimped out for sex. And the women who are trafficked also have families and loved ones who surely suffer as much as those related to substance abusers - not to mention that many of these women are also addicts themselves.
Being a drug addict is NOT the equivalent of being a john.
happybird
(5,393 posts)Which is prostitution, AKA "the world's oldest profession."
There will always be a demand for sex.
Johns are a dime a dozen. What will make a difference for those enslaved in prostitution is focusing on the pimps, gangs, coyotes, 'massage parlor' owners –the middlemen who profit off of others' bodies.
Going after johns is a waste of time and resources when there are bigger, far more evil fish to fry: the ones forcing people into prostitution and then making a profit off of them. That's just evil. Paying for sex is not.
Break the trafficking supply chain and what will be left are the independent contractor sex workers.They do exist. Lots of 'em. It's good money for those who aren't concerned about having safe sex with random partners. The short hours and good pay are very attractive. There will always be people willing to work the job for those reasons- just like there will always be a huge demand for easy, no strings attached sex.
treestar
(82,383 posts)slavery, human sacrifice, the death penalty, etc. Paying for sex is not evil? Explain.
happybird
(5,393 posts)between two adults is not wrong or evil. It's commerce. It's a mutually beneficial transaction. If someone chooses to trade sex for payment or other compensation, that's their business and no one else's.
Sex workers and victims of human trafficking/those who are being exploited are two very different things. It appears that many on these threads don't know the difference.
Where paying for sex goes sideways is when pimps and traffickers are involved, when people are forced, enslaved, or coerced into prostitution.
I probably should have originally used 'wrong' instead of 'evil' because religious folk would declare it to be evil because !sex! And that's fine. They can please their god by not participating. Same deal as abortion: if you don't approve, then don't have one- and don't try to force your chosen moral code on others.
Having autonomy over one's own body is a basic human right. If someone chooses to make money selling their body for sex, then it's not wrong. It's their body, their choice. Someone else deciding what you do (or not do) with your own body is wrong.
There still is slavery, and the death penalty and human sacrifices going on in the world. Probably always will be, too. Humans are assholes.
Edited for clarity in a couple spots. Cold meds are making me extra sloppy tonight. Sorry.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)1) A guy like Robert Kraft who can afford almost anything normal, but goes to a sex palor that charger $35 for a half hour and $60 for an hour.
2) A guy that meets prostitute on the street and do the act in vehicles, ruining neighborhoods.
3) A guy who meets a sex provider at some residence and pays hundreds or thousands for that engagement. Out of public sight and fully consensual.
It seems in your way of thinking, all the people are the same. My argument with that is that you miss the big picture and likely demand that police put resources into an area where they are poorly spent, during the meantime sex slavery becomes worse because police can't focus on it fully.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)you left out. I'm not willing to give a pass to the first two kinds or the others - or ignore the humanity and suffering of the women and involved whom you didn't mention - in order to protect the men who want to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for "consensual" sex.
And, FYI, my experience working with trafficked women taught me that men who pay big money for a prostitute aren't paying for sex - since men with means rarely have any trouble finding wonen to have sex with them for free. They are paying for temporary ownership of a woman whose agency they have taken away and whom they can subjugate and control (even if they're not engaging in physical violence).
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Men that have lots of money say that they pay for the provider to go away after the act. So in one sense, they don't want a relationship outside of sex and conversation. Some use the same provider over and over, so the relationship is more than just casual, BUT they know that the provider want show up at their kids school or at their wife it husband's job or business like a non paid lover could.
You are right, for simplicity, I left out a number of levels of prostitution. You likely know better than me, but I would guess there are likely 8-10 types of prostitution, 6-8 of those levels involve some type of abuse, either sex slavery at some of them or drug addiction in others.
But the other two are consensual and conducted between clearheaded people that have their own reason for engaging in the paid encounter. In your world, the police would put valuable resources in shutting down the latter two, I say that is a waste and divert their attention from the levels where there IS abuse of a human being going on. Also, understand that providers that offer consensual sex have all types of ways to make catching them very difficult, like secure email and other stuff, police would spend vast amount of time and resources catching one person, when they could have captured dozens of sex criminals. How do I know this, once I found out about them I checked out some of the secure stuff to see whether I could get in, I failed every time. In each case I would have to give up personal information just to send an email, there was no way that I was going to do that, the friends that challenged me said the email was just the first step and would in itself lead to nothing.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)who are bought in the third type of transaction. Its where the real money is.
Really, the self justification going in is astonishing.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)...who are bought in the third type of transaction"
I haven't seen anyone suggest that here.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)We've jailed and jailed and jailed. Yet, people keep coming who buy drugs.
The same is true of "Johns." They're not going away. You cannot eliminate them all. There is a reason it's called "the oldest profession."
How about we try something else, since we've been trying the same things without success for millennia now?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The War on Drugs victimized drug addicts.
Johns aren't addicts and they aren't victims. They are part of an institution that victimizes other human beings.
Keeping prostitution illegal does not prevent johns from accessing or having sex. It just prevents people from buying and selling people to enable them to have the kind of sex they want.
I am absolutely sickened seeing so many people dismiss prostitution as if it's a victimless crime and discuss it as if it's simply an arm's length transaction for the sale and purchase of a widget or other commodity. Prostitutes are not drugs. They are human beings who are being sold and bought. Leaving them out of the discussion as if they are willing participants while their johns are innocent victims of the system is disgusting.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)There is addiction of many, many types. Sex addiction is one type. There are 12-step groups for sex addiction just as there are for drug addiction.
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMSHA), the governmental agency for the focus on facilitating recovery for people with or at risk for mental or substance abuse disorders.
“Addicted” refers to the state of being compelled to use a habit-forming drug, substance or to perform an activity even when you have tried to quit or have the desire to quit. Being addicted is the state of being psychologically or physically dependent on a substance such as alcohol or drugs, an activity such as sex or gambling or a lifestyle, such as ecstasy clubbing. However, physicians do not use the term “addicted” when they diagnose and treat mental conditions, but rather the terms “substance abuse” and “substance dependency”. The exception to this is The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM), an organization of physicians specializing in helping people with substance abuse disorders, which does use the term “addicted”.
Also, I'm not the one who brought up the comparison to begin with. But I'm not going to let it pass when people are so clearly misinformed.
This statement is quite wrong. On its face, and in reality.:
Keeping prostitution illegal does not prevent johns from accessing or having sex. It just prevents people from buying and selling people to enable them to have the kind of sex they want.
If keeping an act or a substance illegal prevented ANYTHING we wouldn't be having this conversation.
This statement also fails logically:
Johns aren't addicts and they aren't victims.
It is what is known as "The Hasty Generalization" fallacy. You do not have enough evidence to prove that ALL Johns are neither addicts nor victims. You cannot possibly know that because you cannot possibly know every John.
Let me be clear here. I believe that the people who traffic these women are horrible people. I believe a great number of the people who are Johns are also horrible people. I am in no way condoning nor defending illegal behavior.
It is wrong for one to have absolute certainty when condemning others when one has no more than a spattering of knowledge on a subject. It is perfectly fine to have opinions but we must not act like Trump supporters and ignore science, reality, and the truth. We must not be offended because they upset our beliefs by not confirming them.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But I am well aware of the similarities and, more importantly, the differences between drug addiction and
sex addiction.
Among other things, in most instances, the only way to satisfy a drug addiction is to obtain drugs, which is usually a crime, in and of itself, since the drugs are generally illegal or restricted. On the other hand, sex is neither illegal nor inherently harmful and can be obtained in many safe, legal and even unlimited ways.
While some sex addicts satisfy their addiction by hiring prostitutes, many do not and paying a prostitute is not the only way to satisfy a sexual craving. And many people who use prostitutes are not sex addicts but are driven by numerous other factors, some unrelated to actual sex.
In other words, unlike addiction to drugs - where the addiction and the crimes of purchasing, possessing and using drugs go hand-in-hand, sex addiction is not the driving force behind all prostitution.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)You say a lot of things but you don't back them up with any real facts.
How many sex addicts and sex workers have you worked with to gain the knowledge of what you say?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Prostitutes do not exist because of sex addiction. They are not the cure for sex addiction. If they were, they shouldn't have to be. Can't women have sex addiction? It is an entirely different issue.
Every John is using someone's else's body, taking advantage of someone who is that poor that she has no better opportunity.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)No reputable mental health and addiction counselor would agree with your statement. No one in the field of neurology who studies addiction would agree with you either.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)For example, dispensing drugs to help wean drug addicts while providing them counseling to address the underlying addiction makes sense. Encouraging the perpetuation of sex trafficking for the ostensible purpose of making it more convenient for sex addicts to have sex makes no sense whatsoever. Prostitution does not treat or alleviate sex addiction. It feeds it.
People who patronize prostitutes aren't buying sex. They are buying people with whom to have sex.
Again, your argument consistently leaves the sex worker out of the equation. But prostitutes aren't hypodermic needles administering the drug of choice. They are human beings.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I'm just curious. You write with such certainty of your position and you completely avoided answering that question.
However, all I hear you saying are the same tired old opinions of moralizers who used to treat drug addiction as if it were a moral failing and not something larger.
I hear in your words the same moralizing about the actions of people in the sex trade rather than the root causes.
I think it's rather unfortunate if you believe anyone wants to be:
Encouraging the perpetuation of sex trafficking for the ostensible purpose of making it more convenient for sex addicts to have sex makes no sense whatsoever.
That's just not true. No one in any mental health or treatment community would ever be in favor of encouraging the perpetuation of sex trafficking. It's insulting to suggest such a thing.
So far, all I've heard are tired, old moralization and opinions. Not anything of real substance that shows empathy or compassion for people who sorely need it.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)In addition, I helped lead a major national anti-trafficking initiative and worked with numerous anti-trafficking organizations.
In those capacities, I dealt with countless traffickers and johns, friends of johns, families of johns, advocates for and defenders of johns, most of whom made the same arguments being made right here in these threads on the topic by people trying to claim that they're just harmless purchasers of a commodity.
And you?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Because, if the majority of the providers you interacted with are the ones who seek help, that means your experience is skewed since you have very little, if any, contact with providers who do not seek or want help.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Because I actually have firsthand knowledge of what we're talking about, my "data points and experience are skewed?"
Gotcha.
And what is YOUR experience with the topic that you have chosen to lecture us on?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Your post suggests you have first-hand experience with helping providers who seek help.
Those are two different things.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You seem not only to fancy yourself some kind of an expert, but you feel qualified to determine other people's bona fides to discuss it.
So what experience do YOU have that enables you to hold forth with such authority?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Thank you.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)...the fact that I recognize an adult's inherent right to treat his/her own body in any way he/she deems proper. This recognition can apply to any line of work, not only the sex worker industry.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)YOU are an expert because you have an opinion about it.
Gotcha.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)...tho use his/her own body as he/she wishes. Those are two different things.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Can they volunteer for slavery? Volunteer to be killed? Is the problem not really the actual "need" or "demand" for people who can do such things?
Maybe they can volunteer for drug trials that might damage them too.
Who wouldn't want to have such wonderful "choices?"
Maybe there are some choices that we as a society should forbid and meet the needs the people with these wonderful choices have some other way.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Can be for many reasons other than the ridiculous claim that it's a great job they really love and they are only providing services to people who need those services who deserve to have a way to meet those needs.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:01 PM - Edit history (2)
So I have a unique perspective. My experience comes from being part of that group. Now I do some peer recovery counseling.
It's really a wonder to me that someone who has done so much with those groups can still cast such judgemental opinions about so effortlessly. It's very odd to me that someone who has worked so much in the field would still hold the opinion that sex addiction is different from other addiction. It has been the accepted wisdom for some time now that ALL addiction is of the same sort of neurological pathology.
I find it so surprising that someone who has spoken to so many Johns only manged to talk to the ones who viewed their actions as a simple business transaction. Especially since there are so many other reasons people seek out prostitutes that really have nothing to do with sex. Reasons that might soften one's opinions as to whether or not they were were just evil people seeking a quick way to get off at the expense of another human.
Of course, I have found there are typically two types of people who work in the field the way you claim to have worked. The type that has compassion and empathy for people and doesn't judge. Most of these people are either former addicts etc. or have very close family members who are addicts/mentally unhealthy. Then there's the other type. The type that thinks they're just so awesome for getting dirty and helping out all those broken people. Who feel really good about taking time out of their special lives to help those in need. They become experts overnight just because they sat on a few committees and spent some time at a rehab locations. It's usually pretty easy to tell which type of person one is dealing with.
What national initiative did you work on? I'm sure I've heard of it. I'm surprised such an activist as you didn't post ANYTHING about this during January - National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month. Hmmm.
treestar
(82,383 posts)selling "sex" and selling your body and pretending selling "sex" is all it is, as if there is no person there.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)You manged to miss the words and meaning of all the parts of my post where my concern is about the mental health and well being of humans.
I can't at all see how you came to the conclusion to which you came. You statements don't logical sense.
If you are selling sex by using your body, then there is nothing pretend. It's quite real. I never diminished that. What I diminished is the attitude that the people doing this all just have moral failings and all they need to do is fix their moral failings to stop it all.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that does not damage or exploit others. This is not selling services. I see people want to make it into that, but that's dehumanizing. Services involve something you learn to do - mental, like law, accounting, medicine or for that matter, doing nails or cutting hair. There are some things that are not "moral." You don't have to be a Puritan or a Victorian to have "morals." It is not all or nothing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are there any articles by such experts that prove your point?
deist99
(122 posts)If you had to guess what percentage of woman in prostitution are doing it because they are being forced to do it and how many are there of their own free will what do you think it is?
Historic NY
(40,037 posts)a business needs a customer. I laughed when I saw they got an 81 yr old man. If people are that lonely then they need to find different social activities.
FakeNoose
(41,634 posts)Somebody must be taking payoffs, and it's not the "johns" but police or town sheriffs who were sworn to uphold the law. Any place in America (especially in the suburban strip malls) that's open to the public and called an "Asian Day Spa" has to look suspicious.
Just sayin'
dalton99a
(94,116 posts)They get free samples or reduced prices
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)She was about Five foot seven, long beautiful hair, big green eyes. She was also about 95 pounds, obviously addicted, mentally impaired. Used to watch “johns” pick her up in their shitty little cars, or big SUVs for a 20 dollar—if that— blow job. They didn’t give a shit her as a person.
Fuck those guys.
There is a place on Aurora in Seattle called the commons. Full of the homeless, the addicted, people trying to make money anyway they can. I watch women use the latest YouTube make up techniques to hide the pockmarks and the scars on their faces to present a semblance of the kind of “beauty” the Johns want. These are not the lowest you can go as a sex worker, there is always lower. Like a mattress in the bushes.
One of my best friend was turned out by her own mother at the age of eight. “johns” bought her.
I was a street kid in Seattle, and my first friends were young male prostitutes, the dynamics was slightly different, but that didn’t stop a “John” (often married with kids) from picking up a 13 year old boy.
Again, fuck those guys. Until They learn to take responsibility for their desires, see who they are buying as a real person, they can rot in jail. Let the sex worker free to ply their trade.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)blm
(114,658 posts)Thanks for being real
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)A) Drug addiction drives people to do all sorts of things for money, many of them illegal. Take the johns out of the equation and you still have a heroin addict doing whatever it takes to get the fix and being treated like a criminal by society. Legalize drugs and treat addiction as an illness and then we might have a solution. Prostitution is not a cause here, is a consequence.
B) Your best friend was not bought by "johns" at 8 years old. She was the victim of a monster (her mother) and sick pedophiles.
C) You were also being victimized by pedophiles, and I am sorry that you went through that.
D) Your story is about the debt America has with its most vulnerable- the addicted and the homeless. Let's invest in getting those populations back on their feet, though the right social and mental health services, and see how things truly improve.
Again, a person who freely decides to engage in sex work instead of taking a more conventional avenue to make money, and individuals who choose to pay for these services instead of obtaining them from free should not be vilified by society, whether we agree with what they do or not. People should be free to engage with each other sexually as they like, as long as there is clear consent and it's done privately.
Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #7)
KentuckyWoman This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)to such things.
I've known just one sex worker in my life. She was a 21-year-old college student with the same major I had. I was attracted to her, but she declined to date me, so we became friends instead, which is when she told me her story.
Her family had no money. So, she was working as a call girl to pay for college. She worked for a woman who was the scheduler and who vetted the men who hired the young women who worked for her. That woman took 20% of the fees. No more. No less. My friend told me that she could accept or turn down anyone without any issues.
Everything was done on an outcall basis. Mostly in hotels, since most of the men were in town for business. Occasionally, a local man would be a "client," but even then, hotels were the usual venue. There were no bodyguards. She made her own way to engagements. According to her, there was never any violence involved, although some level of humiliation was often a part of it.
The scheduler arranged for what was going to happen in advance and my friend said that she always knew what would be expected and had agreed to it in advance. She claimed that it was very rare for one of those engagements to develop into a problem.
Of course, this was not street prostitution. The earnings were high, and she turned down people who seemed to want something she was uncomfortable doing. She only worked a couple of nights a week, and only had one engagement per day.
That isn't a typical story, I'm sure. She was strikingly attractive and smart. A high-end call girl.
I don't know what happened to her after that year. She went on to graduate school in a PhD program at another University and I lost touch with her altogether. I don't know if she continued to pay her way in the same manner in grad school.
But, she was not a typical sex worker, I'm pretty sure.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)A Dominatrix who make fairly high end money, and who is NOT particularly attractive in the classic sense. She’s good at what she does. Everywhere there is sex work, there are successes. There is advocacy for one another. There is pride. At a certain level.
Personally being reduced to a piece of meat as a stripper wasn’t anything I could do sober. Empty eyes staring at you. Blech. You get regulars after a while. Men who want to fix you or want to control you. You can never let them, though, once you let them in it’s a slope you may not be able to climb back up.
And the violence. Pimps and procurers exist for a reason, strip clubs have bouncers for a reason, because once someone is so thouroghly objectified they literally lose their humanity, there are purchasers of sex who think it’s fine to hurt and harm. I have never met one single sex worker male or female who doesn’t have a story of violence.
The point isn’t that sex work is bad, immoral or dirty, it’s not, the point is thousands of women AND men disappear into it and it hurts them nobody gives a shit. Nobody knows the names of the less successful, the less attractive, the less popular. Unless they become fodder for a serial killer.
That’s actually another one of my stories. Lost a friend to a serial killer in Alaska who hunted women down like they were animals.
So yeah. I do come from dark places, but I know the “good” stories as well.
The young ones. Jesus. People are being incredibly naive if they think that selling children for sex isn’t common.
Sex work exists by and large to satisfy the desire of men for sexual access 24/7. It is not Egalitarian. It reflects society in a clear mirror. So the succesful stories? No reason they shouldn’t be celebrated, or admired. Really.
But there are people like me who know what happens to the vulnerable ones, or the ones who thought they were strong enough but weren’t and what continues to happen. It’s horror, and humiliation and fear and disease and death.
Like I said. Fuck those guys.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Thank you for sharing your stories and perspective. People need to know how ugly this business can be for the more vulnerable ones.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)pnwmom
(110,261 posts)but I'm so glad you did.
Six years ago one of my college sons told me late one night that a girl he knew had just been locked out of her house by her alcoholic mother. Could he bring her home? I'd never even met her, and he had only met her in person a couple times. (She was a friend of a friend.)
She arrived in her tank top and pajama bottoms, this tiny, beautiful little thing, with skin still cold from being stuck outside. She never went back.
She stayed here till she got her community college degree (in a program for young adults who hadn't finished high school), and then she got a free ride at UW. -- and graduated. That was such a happy day, for all of us. But I shudder to think what could have happened to a girl like her if she hadn't landed here.
There is no, no, no excuse for the adult men who take advantage of vulnerable young people.
kcr
(15,522 posts)And it's entirely fair because drugs aren't people, and many drug users are addicts.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)kcr
(15,522 posts)obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)They can jack off instead of preying on women in need.
As soon as wealthy women start being trafficked and working as prostitutes in the number that poor women are, then your point MAY have validity. Until then? Nope. The men can jack themselves off, not have sex slaves do it.
BeyondGeography
(41,101 posts)There is no escaping our misery!
Schopenhauer would find this thread amusing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Why do they bother with college if it's such a great "choice" job? You are right. Until women who have better prospects "choose" this "work," how is it just another work choice?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And among male prostitutes, why don't more of them turn tricks with women?
As I said, this isn't about women - or men servicing make johns - making choices about their bodies. It's based on exploitation by men. The fact that a small percentage of prostitution is done willingly doesn't change that fact any more than the fact that some people manage to take hard drugs recreationally without becoming addicted doesn't mean that drug abuse isn't a serious problem.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)deist99
(122 posts)Is this question serious? The reason is that woman can have sex pretty much whenever they can, men not so much. Research across all cultures have shown men want sex more, with more variety, than woman do. It's called testosterone. Controls both male and female sex drive. Men on average have about 10 times the amount woman do.
Don't believe it? Go to one of these free dating sites and make an add looking for sex, but make one for a woman seeking casual sex and one for a man. See which one gets more responses.
treestar
(82,383 posts)For them getting to buy a woman's body. Women should have better opportunities for making money. If you have to make efforts to get them to agree to sex with you, too bad. Make those efforts. And you don't get your way in everything. Maybe there are some things you can't have. "Testosterone" sounds like an excuse for no self control. That is just called patriarchy. Those privileges are going away as women gain equality.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)especially when that perpetuates the subjugation of women
It reminds me of the way we keep teaching women how not to be raped instead of teaching men to stop raping.
It's long past time for men to start owning their sh*t ...
Progressive Law
(617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Sex is neither heroin not methodone, both of which are controlled substances not legally available to the general public, unlike sex, which is free and very available.
Men should figure out how to have sex without having to pay for it or just abstain if they can't get any instead of expecting society to support and condone them patronizing and perpetuating an industry built on the subjugation and abuse of women.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You second sentence is a great summation.
tinrobot
(12,062 posts)Are you talking about what is happening in Florida?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Which prompted me to ask, if Johns can be considered (sex) addicts as well. If so, wouldn't it follow that those specific Johns are not human traffickers because they may be addicts as well?
treestar
(82,383 posts)and not everyone going to one is a sex addict.
Sex addicts can get treatment. Prostitutes can't. At least, many do not them as vulnerable and needing help.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)I am not familiar with the practices of sex addicts, but I would think prostitutes would be a significant resource to satisfy their sexual addiction.
tinrobot
(12,062 posts)There are legal consequences in most areas for that sort of behavior.... is the risk worth it?
I think most addicts would try a legal route first.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)But, those drug addicts still take that risk of jail to satisfy their addiction. I think it would be similar for sex addicts.
tinrobot
(12,062 posts)Many of the most commonly abused drugs (heroin, meth, etc) are illegal. Abusing prescriptions is illegal. There is often no way to satisfy a drug addiction without breaking the law.
Sex is legal, for the most part. You can find all sorts of ways to have it without resorting to prostitution.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)And people can find all sorts of ways to satisfy their addiction without resorting to heroin (Methadone for example). That doesn't stop them from resorting to heroin though.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)The actual product is a human's body, rather than a drug.
They can be arrested for it too, just like a drug user.
Legalizing it would be interesting if it were done from the aspect of arresting the user rather than the producer. Arrest the johns but not the prostitute. That might be the way to put an end to it. With drugs, legalizing them just gets rid of criminals providing it. But legalizing prostitution might make it a full market demand issue, leading to more exploited women. In a rich country, there would not be enough supply for the demand, thus importing new workers.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Historically, this has always been true.
In these discussions, someone ALWAYS brings up Prohibition and its failure to eradicate drinking as a reason we should not prohibit the sale of women.
I find that interesting because Prohibition was really not an effort to eradicate drinking. It was an effort to reduce domestic abuse in a time when men were legally allowed to do anything to their wives short of murder. "A man's home was his castle" was and is a bedrock tenet of the legal system, and no one was allowed to breach that castle. As we all know, alcohol is often an element in domestic abuse, and the women who fought against "Demon liquor" very often linked it to the "degradation of the family" and other code words for a wife- and child-beating or abusing head of the household.
Yes, Prohibition was ridiculous, but in a society where women had no legal recourse against dangers in their own homes, where the society adamantly refused to put the responsibility for domestic abuse on the domestic abusers, it was the best they could do.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)...about the social scourge of cheap gin among the wretched poor in England.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Yes, some powerful people got embarrassed, but those people also hired good lawyers and walked free.
What legalization would allow is setting of standards and mandatory inspections (health inspections). The problem with legalization is that some sellers of sex such as women in college, grad school, professional school, that are office workers, ect don't want that because then their real names get connected to the trade they are in and can be dug up if they go on to become prominent, which some have (a legendary woman in 50's and 60's era Democratic Party politics was famous for being a paramour to rich and powerful old men, many that she married). So legalization is unlikely to happen, as a consequence the sex slavery part of the sex for sale industry grows unabated.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)people pop up all over the place (including on DU) to tell us why they shouldn't be arrested, prostitution's not so bad, blah blah blah.
And then we go back to ignoring the pain, agony, humiliation and abuse of the invisible women who are victimized by prostitution every day.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Your mind seems to be set on the image that everyone that is selling sex is being abused. Reality is something else. I walk a thin line here because I too feel that ANY one that is taking advantage of a provider, whether it be through sex slavery or feeding their drug addition should be jailed for life as a threat to society.
But I also have seen enough to know that there are providers that are clear headed and sell sex because that benefits them in some way. So, is a young woman that has an old man pay $700 per hour knowing that he want last three minutes, if that, and who runs her own website and sets her own encounters being abused? The reality is that there ARE women like that out there providing sexual services, even if you chose to ignore that with your one size fits all imagery. The one size fits all model is where I think a mistake is being made in combatting sexual sexual slavery, it is just wrong and makes the real problems worse. I am not here trying to defend or deflect form criminal conduct, what I am saying is that the approach of dealing with it is weighed down by religious morality or viewpoints that can't see the shades of the problems and understand which should be attacked and which should be ignored.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and they may not be as clear headed as all that. They can put on the show. But face it, that's got to be a depressing life. Even if you keep up the show for awhile, it's going to come back and haunt you. It's not healthy. How can anyone argue she is not getting psychological damage? Her sex life should be about sex, not money.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)the people that I referred to launched careers. Do they lay awake at night thinking about having provided? Maybe, but in one case that I got to follow, the provider is a successful professional. It would be nice providers like the one woman would join the fight to counterbalance some of the stereotypes being thrown around, but if she does the moralists will be all over her and will likely ruin her career, so she remains silent and out of the debate.
treestar
(82,383 posts)For example, if I go to a psychologist am I being a "moralist" (sounds like it is meant to be bad) if I don't want someone so unhealthy mentally that they have that in their background? Really to become a doctor or other professional you can't pay for it without selling your body? The problem is that it cost that much, and that no student should have to solve the cost problem that way! Geez. It's not OK for society to allow that to happen to people. She should have been able to study for medicine, law, whatever without having to sell her body to people.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)People should be able to gain a profession for something close to free. Maybe removing the financial need in cases where that is the driving force will reduce prostitution. But unfortunately, society does not set priorities such that people can avoid such trade offs.
deist99
(122 posts)You sound like an anti-abortionist, even if the woman seems fine after the abortion it stills causes mental health problems. So we should make it illegal. In fact I would argue that it is probably more traumatic to have an abortion than to freely accept money in exchange for sex. But I still believe abortion should be legal.
Sorry when you start sounding like a Trumptard you’ve lost the argument in my opionion.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Seriously?
I'm comparing abortion to a woman consenting to have sex with a man in exchange for money.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Gotcha - reading you loud and clear.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)If one pays the other it’s wrong.
Makes no sense.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)They're paying to subjugate a woman.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)As a self described lawyer, could you explain the legal basis for the claim that a person hiring a prostitute is also guilty of sex trafficking?
The United Nations defines human trafficking as the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring, or receipt of persons by improper means (such as force, abduction, fraud, or coercion) for an improper purpose including forced labor or sexual exploitation. [1] Human smuggling, a related but different crime, generally involves the consent of the person(s) being smuggled. These people often pay large sums of money to be smuggled across international borders. Once in the country of their final destination, they are generally left to their own devices. Smuggling becomes trafficking when the element of force or coercion is introduced.
https://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/human-trafficking/pages/welcome.aspx
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But I have worked with a lot of sex trafficking be victims and one the most universal aspects of prostitution I learned from them is that rarely see their johns interested in sex for intimacy, companionship or even just sexual release. Most of them can get that elsewhere and for free.
Their experience is that men paid for sex with them in order to subjugate and exert control over them. It wasn't always violent or sadistic, but it also was never a respectful interaction between equals.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)provide the slaves.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Or fly to the Caribbean to have sexcapades with "sanky pankys" down there?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)JI7
(93,616 posts)
meadowlander
(5,133 posts)the alternative is starvation, they are addicted to drugs, someone will beat the shit out of them if they don't, they were sexually abused as a child or they are mentally impaired how "consensual" is it?
DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)Pointing to the evil aspects, primarily trafficking, is often an attempt to hide that Puritanism.
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)I have real life examples. And I am no Puritan
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
EllieBC
(3,639 posts)I never saw myself as a puritan but if it means I am helping to end human trafficking, sign me up.
MaryMagdaline
(7,964 posts)It’s harder for us to convince our fellow humans that there is something inhumane about the sex-for-pay business if someone shames us with the “puritanical” label.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)You understand this is one of the worst forms of slavery, right?
You understand that this probably goes on somewhere near you, right?
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)
Squinch
(59,522 posts)"Sure, bud. She's just a nice consenting girl working her way through college."
My favorite was the one who used to post HERE insisting that prostitutes were all just in it because they really liked sex.
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)to go the let me educate you route. You know it won’t work and they would love the opportunity to insult again.
So I just cut to the chase, lol.
I can’t help but wonder how some folks like your favorite come to these spectacular conclusions.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)time the discussion comes up, even though the same people have had them before, even though you KNOW they know trafficking and enslavement are rampant, they always pull out the same lame, "But I'm not doing anything wrong!" arguments.
treestar
(82,383 posts)just to try to reassure themselves. And there would be no reason for those women to tell them the truth. In fact they could get punished for it by pimps or others. Someone who has to pay for sex - maybe he needs to see a psychiatrist instead.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It's frustrating, isn't it?
Apparently, we're wrong for not recognizing that johns are just well-meaning benefactors seeking intimacy while treating women with respect as their equals and, if only we didn't stigmatize and threaten them with misdemeanor arrests for solicitation, they could come out of the shadows and openly provide economic empowerment to women.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)that THEY are directly contributing to slavery and are actively raping
or their best friend who they really like is
or they did it in college or at a bachelor party, and they can't believe it was wrong because THEY would never do anything like that
or that theoretical happy hooker in their minds who proves that they really ARE liberal-minded just isn't happy at all.
But don't listen to me. I'm just a Puritan.
DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)the reason prostitution was wrong was the corruption of men by supposedly evil women.
Now the opposition is due to the exploitation of women.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)I would change that to "almost always". The johns are often punished, as well.
Puritans are horrified by prostitution because they're horrified by sex outside marriage. It's all the same to them. It makes no difference to them if the prostitute has been forced into prostitution or not.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And we don't hear a peep about legalizing prostitution. But let one prominent, wealthy man get arrested for solicitation and suddenly we're supposed to talk about legalizing prostitution.
This is really about legalizing solicitation and giving men a pass. It has nothing to do with any concern for women.
happybird
(5,393 posts)You should read this, it addresses several extremely important issues concerning the health and safety of women and how it could be improved. It's a quick read, very succinct:
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/decreasing-human-trafficking-through-sex-work-decriminalization/2017-01
I know a study released last week claimed legalization would lead to more trafficking, but it's the only one I've ever seen which claims that.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)
procon
(15,805 posts)How often do people have to watch the news discussing this issue, and then ignore everything they learn to reach the illogical conclusion that drug users aren't associated wirh drug trafficking?
C'mon... Is it fair to associate "guns" with "mass shootings"?
Is it fair to associate "1000 year storms" with "global warming"?
Is it fair to associate "Republicans" with "white nationalism"?
Squinch
(59,522 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You nailed it!
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)I can't really give opinion on that front, however, I think it would depend on in what context it were used in general language.
"Technically", I wouldn't lump them into that category since the "johns" are the consumer.
As I mentioned in a previous post, my personal views of prostitution divide this realm into two categories: one being legal and consenting adults and participants, the other being, well, everyone else.
I think the word that trips me up is "trafficking". I tend to associate that with illegal or illicit levels of the supply process, and since I believe prostitution involving consenting adults shouldn't be illegal, it doesn't fall into the "trafficking" bucket in my mind.
Now if you switch the general conversation towards prostitution that involves unwilling participants and underage people, my perception changes dramatically, and I don't even really see it as prostitution anymore. Its downright evil,and anyone who would participate is deserving of the full weight and consequences that society can level on them.
Correct or otherwise, thats just where my mind defaults to when discussing the two concepts in general.
Hekate
(100,133 posts) Mosby
(19,491 posts)Generally speaking, people arrested for possession are not also charged with possession for sale unless there is some evidence to that effect, like say they own a special scale and have lots of little ziplock bags.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Whereas prostitutes are human beings that the "user" actually interacts with, has sex with, and often abuses and exploits.
A drug dealer sells a drug to a user who then assumes all of the risks and danger of using that drug.
A pimp/trafficker sells a PERSON to a john, who then imposes himself onto him or her.
There's a difference between buying and selling a thing and buying and selling a person.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Which ignores consensual prostitution and a person's right to control his or her own body. If a prostitute considers his/her own body appropriate for sex work, why should someone else criminalize it?
The same applies to the adult entertainment industry. Would you like to see pornography criminalized as well?
treestar
(82,383 posts)that the people aren't at risk of being attacked to the same degree. It's some sort of faking in the end, too, like an art of a kind. It has some other purpose than merely selling your body. Men have equal opportunities in it, I would guess.
It's not the "right to control your own body" and some terrific opportunity to have to turn to prostitution. Prove people have chosen prostitution where they could make the same amount of money in another job. If you make 50K per year as a prostitution, or could work as a manager for 50K per year, then you may have a case that the person who had that choice really "chose" prostitution.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Johns who attack the prostitute should be labeled as human traffickers. The Johns who do not attack the prostitute should not be labeled as human traffickers. Does that sound fair to you?
treestar
(82,383 posts)The attack is criminal whether there is prostitution or not. It is fair as a corollary with drugs. But the difference being one's own body rather than the drug is thought provoking. The drug is illegal. The human body is not illegal. There is another person there, not just the inanimate drug (or any other illegal object, like bootlegs or unregistered guns, etc.)
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Many of them do. Who are we to object?
treestar
(82,383 posts)if that's the case, the way you described it, it does not involve being paid?
And they are in the same danger as the regular hookers, so the point is now moot.
JonLP24
(29,929 posts)Rapes occur on set or they will be asked to work with someone on their no list and they are in a less able situation to do anything about it.
https://fightthenewdrug.org/10-porn-stars-speak-openly-about-their-most-popular-scenes/
treestar
(82,383 posts)Of course I lied to my fans. I led them to believe I lived a fantasy life which was far from the truth. I fed into their fantasies. I said I wanted sex 24/7 and made it seem like I absolutely loved what I did and was living this happy life. I gave them hope and insight into their relationships by telling them what to do. I started to feel like an important nobody, they knew Elizabeth [the porn star], but they would never care to know Jan [the real me].
That they just really love it. That's it is a great job. And pays well.
And interesting the porn itself - the storylines tend to objectify women.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)So, s'all good, right?
For some reason, you're intent on downplaying the horror of prostitution
for most of the women caught up in it ... Strange.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)...the prostitute to a degree of illegality, then prosecute the act of abuse...not the prostitution.
58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)I just agreed that it is a good thing if EffieBlack's hypothetical pimp does not abuse the provider.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Or maybe you haven't.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)That is a good thing.
irisblue
(37,512 posts)there are?
(Sealioning, a skill)
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)evidence.
No, really I tried.
No problem absolving johns without complete empirical evidence about how much of their activity is rape and enslavement, though.
Who is surprised?
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)I'm a jewelry maker/designer. Those small ziplocks are essential to my (legal) business. How else would I keep earrings together?
Anyone who buys from me gets at least one of them as I ship my items in there.
They're readily available in any craft store.
MaryMagdaline
(7,964 posts)We all know now that there’s a good chance the sex worker is actually a slave worker.
tblue37
(68,436 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(24,681 posts)Yes, in a "seven degrees of separation" sort of way.
In general, a consumer doesn't know (or care) about the supply chain that brings the product to him.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)"seven degrees of separation sort of way?"
And before you say johns don't know, here's how it works in Rhode Island where inside sex has been legalized:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/36417551_Sex_Trafficking_and_Decriminalized_Prostitution_in_Rhode_Island
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Not everyone in sex work fits that description.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)windows are just to keep out the wild animals. The surveillance equipment is for home movies that they can look at in years to come and remember the good old days. And their unwillingness just means they are having a bad day.
Likewise on the streets, all those 13 and 14 year olds are just experimenting. That's normal for kids.
The high end call girls with the Russian and Eastern European accents all come here and work in the sex trade for someone else because that was the fulfillment of all their childhood dreams.
All those women and children who walk the streets in every American city just really like to party, and LOVE the big money that $20 blow jobs get them. Besides, if they wanted to quit they could do it any time.
It's all good. It's all consensual.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)However, it's not all clear cut. There are individuals who live regular lives, who have careers and everything, who do this on the side. That's something they have decided to engage in, for whatever reason. It is not for me, and not for you. However, it is a reality, and I don't think such individuals and their clients should be punished for their lifestyle choices.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)aren't "punished for their lifestyle choices"?
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Still, I respect your viewpoint.
treestar
(82,383 posts)maybe. Or if there was another way they could make the same amount of money and they still choose it, maybe. It's not a lifestyle, in fact aren't some insisting it is "work?" Lifestyle refers to other things, and you need the $$ for the lifestyle you want. If you really actually value the inanimate objects the extra money buys over your personal safety and others using your body for hire, maybe that's a different problem.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)I have a good friend who is a hairdresser- a very talented one, by the way. Struggling economically, she decided she needed extra money. Next thing I learn she is escorting on the side. I asked her if, given her talents, she could find a different source of extra income. Her answer was that she feels comfortable doing this on the side and the money is good.
In her case, her economic situation is difficult, but she made the conscious choice of engaging in sex work because she found it more comfortable than getting a second job out there or doing something else with her hairdressing career. Not the best choice, by any means, in my view, but who am I to tell her not to do it?
treestar
(82,383 posts)or don't mind, or whatever. But it is causing damage any minute. A real friend would advise or help to find another way. If she ended up disappearing or dying from it, then it wouldn't feel too good to say "well I had no right to tell her not to do it."
Then there are the risks of not getting paid - you can't exactly go to court to enforce contracts. If it were legalized and you could, you'd have the burden of proof that it happened. Thus leading to the "providers" needing signatures on contracts or videotapes of the activity. Which interestingly could lead to lowered demand as the johns don't want that!
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Mostly they just exist in the imaginations of johns who don't want to admit what they are really doing, and of people who watch a lot of Lifetime movies.
Really. They aren't just nice girls working their way through college.
Prostitution is not a lifestyle choice.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)By the way, be careful with your insinuations.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)on every conversation about human trafficking.
Because it's so relevant.
As I said. This is the smallest sliver of the prostitution world. We are talking about the rest of it.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)However, I don't think we will agree. There is no need for any hostility between us.
treestar
(82,383 posts)So you need to back up that statement with some real evidence everyone can see.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)My anecdotal evidence gains any validity if I decide to engage in providing details that I just don't wish to share in an anonymous internet forum which, at least for me, is mainly a source of entertainment. Given that reality, I prefer to refrain from further participation in this topic.
I'm focusing on Cohen now.
Response to Squinch (Reply #118)
IluvPitties This message was self-deleted by its author.
So In your opinion what percent of woman in prostitution are being forced to do it and what percent do it willingly?
Squinch
(59,522 posts)What do you think?
deist99
(122 posts)It's very hard to determine. From everything I've read street prostitution only makes up about 20% of the sex work industry. The other 80% are escorts, massage parlors, etc. If I had to guess I would say between 20%-30% of woman involved in prostitution are being forced to do it. I base this on two factors. Sex trafficking makes up only 15-20% of all trafficking worldwide. (most trafficking victims are in the agriculture industries) And the fact that the legal brothels in Nevada never seem to be short of wiling workers.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)prostitution as 20% of all pristitution?
Second, why would you think that escort services and massage parlors do not include a good percentage of trafficked participants? Those are precisely the places that best lend themselves to surveillance and incarceration. They also allow for more organized and lucrative trafficking. And as we have seen in the study I have posted many times, they make it almost impossible for trafficking to be detected and stopped. (That study dealt with LEGAL prostitution in Rhode Island.)
Third, anyone who tells you they know that "sex trafficking makes up x percent of all trafficking" is making a ridiculous statement.
Im not stating that there is no sexual trafficking outside street prostitution. I don’t think all street prostitutes are sexual trafficking victims. Many are drug addicts and it’s the quickest way to get money for there next fix.
Again, my 70-80% estimate (guesstimate really) that people(mostly woman) in prostitution are doing it freely is based on many factors, but mostly from research through reading. Though I did know three woman that worked in the sex industry while they were in college. One escort and two strippers. Did they like the job? No. But it provides a bunch of money and a lot of time off.
I read a study done on internet escorts in San Fran that found an average income of $200,000 a year. Most of the woman had a high school education, with a small percentage having some college or a degree. The number one reason they gave for escorting was the money and time off.
I agree it is hard to get accurate numbers on anything related to the sex industry. Because the people for it only promote positive studies and the people against it only promote the negative. A coulpe years ago I started researching prostitution and found the prostitution abolitionist. They fancy themselves the modern day equivalent of the slavery abolitionists. They’ve convinced themselves that 99.9% of all woman in prostitution are there because they are forced to be there. And that .1 percent that claim they are doing it of their own free will are deluded.
Prostitution abolitionist reminds me of anti-abortion activities. They also find woman that now regret their abortion and use that as evidence that abortion should be outlawed.
The other problem with prostitution is that woman who have done and it or are doing it of there own free will aren’t going to speak up because the stigma associated with it. I guarantee the three woman I knew in college have probably not told anyone about how they paid for it.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Nevada and it is on the rise.
From my research there has not been one documented case of sex trafficking in any of the legal brothels in Nevada.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)but a quick Google search produces significant refutation of your claim.
For example:
Charleston
REBEKAH CHARLESTON | RENO GAZETTE JOURNAL | 10:33 am PDT October 9, 2018
I was trafficked into Nevada’s legal brothels.
Legal prostitution worldwide is known to facilitate human traffickers by giving them legal access to have women be sold for sex while they profit, without the legal risk of getting caught. I am a survivor who was once trafficked into Nevada’s legal brothels. My abuse began in the strip clubs and continued all the way through the streets, to casinos, to brothels, and back and forth hundreds of times.
My trafficker would send his victims, including myself, to work in the brothels as a form of punishment. Women were not able to come and go as they pleased. I distinctly remember how difficult it was to leave the premises of the two Nevada brothels I worked at.
We also did not have the “independent contractor” freedom to turn down buyers. Management required us to line up when someone arrived at the brothel. Once picked from the lineup, we would bring the sex buyer back to our room where he was allowed to do whatever he wanted with us.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rgj.com/amp/1578611002
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Yes signs. But no verified or prosecuted violations.
From the article here are some of the signs-
“Other human trafficking indicators observed in the audit included documentation showing workers applying for prostitution work cards “almost immediately” after entering the U.S., as well as documentation of an out-of-state marriage “upon entry into the U.S”
So some woman sees reruns of cathouse in her country and decides she wants to come to the US and work there for awhile and that is a “sign” of human trafficking?
Color me skeptical.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You made a claim that you didn't back up and that I utterly refuted. Unless you produce something to support your argument other than an assertion about your "research," we're done here.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)deist99
(122 posts)I want to thank you for showing me these articles. I think they are strong evidence that legalized prostitution works. How so? There are routine checks being done and when violations are found they are being pursued. As the officer states this was not the fault of Dennis Hof but the police department when they issued the work permits and did not catch these signs. They have now and will do further investigation and any woman who has been trafficked will receive the help she needs to escape the traffickers.
It also provides evidence supporting my estimate of how many women are in prostitution of their own free will. The article states that 34% had signs of trafficking. And I would guess that not all 34% were actually trafficked. So you have around 66% that are engaging in prostitution of their own free will. My guesstimates were 20-30 are forced and 70-80% engage in prostitution of their own free will.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)I don’t employ sex workers, been married 20+ years and the wife would frown on it. And I don’t believe I’m grabbing at straws. I took the available evidence and applied it to the discussion.
If the article had stated that 70% of workers in the brothels showed indicators of being trafficked I would have said that this doesn’t support my estimate. I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I’m guessing you think the breakdown is more like 90% of woman are forced into prostitution?
If this is correct what evidence would you need to convince you that the 66% of workers in the brothels are there because they want to be there?
Squinch
(59,522 posts)The study found rampant proof of trafficking, but you are right. When it is legalized and brought behind closed doors, those inside the legal brothels who ARE being trafficked have almost no opportunity to report it and get help.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/36417551_Sex_Trafficking_and_Decriminalized_Prostitution_in_Rhode_Island
They found the following:
And this:
And this:
Yet there too, there was little reporting of sex trafficking or of the attendant issues to sex trafficking like diagnosis and treatment of venereal disease. Think about that for a second before you say brothels are just places where people can go to have a good time.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But given how determined some folks are to defend the indefensible, it will surely fall on deaf ears - or, as has been laughably asserted in this thread, it will somehow support the bogus argument that legal brothels actually REDUCE human trafficking.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Anyone who uses a quote from Andrea Dworkin in their thesis is not going to be an unbiased researcher.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)think of the human beings involved.
I do care about any person being trafficked. If those woman at the massage parlor are victims of trafficking I hope they get the help they need.
I think we both agree that no one should be forced into prostitution, or any other work. It is a form of modern day slavery.
But could we both agree that a woman(or man) who freely chooses to engage in sexual activity for money should be able to do so. They and their customer should not have to fear being arrested or jailed.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)has not been trafficked - and almost none of these guys has that certainty though clearly most of them convince themselves they do - then fuck 'em.
Turn a blind eye to the fact that you are probably enslaving another human being, and you deserve whatever you get.
But here: I'll put the name Dworkin in my post so you can discount it and not have to think of the enslaved people I refer to.
Any person that would use someone that they know has been trafficked should be punished. Or as you said fuck’em.
I know that after researching this topic, if I ever was to go to a sex worker I would 1) make sure it was at a legal establishment, and 2) ask the sex worker if she is being forced to work there. If she told me she was being forced or her answers seemed insincere I would report it to the proper authorities.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)There couldn't possibly be any reason for her to lie.
No one could possibly have been violent toward her to put her into an enslaved position in the first place, and threatened more violence if she didn't convince you she was thrilled to have sex with you.
And if she was being trafficked she would certainly risk her life to tell you the truth. Because, after all, you asked her. And you would report it to the proper authorities! She would be saved!
Gosh. Aren't you just terrific.
The cluelessness of your statement is absolutely staggering.
deist99
(122 posts)I thought we were having a polite discussion. I get the impression from your responses that you are more in line with the paid sex is rape crowd or the PIV is always rape crowd. I’m that case further discussion with you is pointless.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)is likely a victim of trafficking and enslaved, and you are raping her!
Here, let me make it easy for you: Dworkin. There. Now you're absolved.
deist99
(122 posts)I think I'll take the opinion of Amnesty International over a thesis paper by a graduate student.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/08/sex-workers-rights-are-human-rights/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/
But I have a feeling you won't.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)The johns can go screw themselves, is my opinion.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)abuse and degradation of women, we shouldn't do anything about it because it might interfere with the small minority of "law abiding" johns' freedom to pay for sex without worrying about criminal consequences.
I say too bad.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)And we'd wreck their fun.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)EllieBC
(3,639 posts)They honestly believe that women would rather be seen as a commodity to be sold and traded to make money?
treestar
(82,383 posts)which is a lot different from an iPhone.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)prostitutes so yeah it is fair.
watoos
(7,142 posts)If they know that the girls are sex slaves they won't get into a Stormy Daniels situation.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)would benefit him? They must be a special kind of stupid.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)And, your analogy is a non-analogy.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Yeah, it's fair to go after them.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)
karynnj
(60,968 posts)SHOULD be considered associated. I assume a reasonably curious person would observe that the women did not speak English. For those living in the community, they might have a hint that the women were there 24 hours a day. They would have clues (smells) that the women were cooking there. In addition, there had to be some word of mouth that this was not a regular massage place.
If instead of women, we are speaking of underage girls, then no question -- they should be condemned.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)And should be dealt with by doctors, not cops. It is a public health crisis not a law enforcement issue. The way to decrease demand is to study why people start using in the first place and address those causes. While I'm a product of DARE, I've never seen any education addressing the root causes of drug use.
A man who can't keep it in his pants can buy a fleshlight.
People have gone to rehab for both drug addiction and sex addiction. The difference is that the latter seems to only happen to famous people who have been caught with their pants down (ie Anthony Weiner, Tiger Woods, Charlie Sheen).
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Furthermore, saying sex addicts can cure their addiction using a flesh-light is like saying heroin addicts can cure their addiction with methadone.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Two free, consenting adults should engage sexually in any way they want, for whatever motivation they might have. Notice I said free and consenting.
Let's be careful here.
58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)Your insistence about the mythical happy well adjusted hooker and and the hapless John just sound like so much denial in view of the statistics about prostitution. Look a unicorn!!
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)I have a few acquaintances who at some points in their lives have done some type of sex work, willingly and on the side. Both men and women who no one would normally see in that line of work.
Life is much more complex than it seems.
Polly Hennessey
(8,833 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)KentuckyWoman
(7,401 posts)Someone paying another willing adult for sex services most of us are at least willing to nod a head...
Pretty much every other scenario (which is the vast majority of the porn and sex trade) is unacceptable.
I'd like to see us legalize the first. I'd like to see us treat the traffickers and johns in the 2nd far more harshly. Throwing keys away comes to mind.
jrthin
(5,225 posts)johns wanting that create a demand. So, yes, it's fair to say they are a big part of the sex trafficking trade.
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)
OregonBlue
(8,215 posts)buy and use a person.....
Progressive Law
(617 posts)OregonBlue
(8,215 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)You really can't blame them for choosing to do so since the OP was, as I pointed out, vague and all-inclusive.
The current news is about little girls and women whose free will and freedom have been taken from them. Recruited with false promises, betrayed, and essentially enslaved in a country that abolished slavery quite some time ago.
We could also talk about the girls recruited into gangs, tattooed across their backs with "tramp stamps," and then passed around or pimped out. How much free will do they have?
Legalizing prostitution does not solve this particularly problem.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)While the Johns who do perpetuate human trafficking are human traffickers.
Or do you feel that every instance of prostitution necessarily involves human trafficking?
Hekate
(100,133 posts)...who bleated "But she didn't look 13! We thought she was 19!" (Actual rape case from decades ago in my old home state of Hawaii) Bizarre reasoning, and they got the book thrown at them anyway. Likewise the numerous guys in US history who seduced an underage girl and discovered the meaning of "jail bait." "She never said she was 16!" Judges have to inform the men involved that they still broke the law.
The point is not that you personally would ever rape a woman or girl, the point is not that you would ever personally enslave another human being. Just not. The point is that you don't seem to get it. You don't seem to get the sheer scope of the problem we actually have.
And you chose to start posting during the Epstein and Kraft scandals. That is on you.
What consenting adults do in private is their own business. I don't care if money changes hands. I care very much if there is coercion.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)I asked if it was your opinion that every instance of prostitution necessarily involves human trafficking.
If you are not of that opinion, then it would necessarily follow that it is unfair to associate every John with human trafficking.
OregonBlue
(8,215 posts)hopeforchange2008
(610 posts)EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)but because they have to. If the sex worker is of a different nationality than the country you reside in, most likely, they've been human trafficked, and in many cases they are slaves.
In other words, I'd be surprised if a john hasn't raped several victims when they "bought sex".
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Many adult entertainment performers do it because they have to, not because they want to.
Are consumers of pornography participating in sex/human trafficking? Should pornography be criminalized?
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)happybird
(5,393 posts)Lots of people choose to do it of their own free will, from their own home. Good cam operators make great money for only a couple hours of work a day and a few private shows for select regulars each week.
That vs. $10/hr working shifts at a crappy coffee shop? It's no contest if you are okay with doing that sort of thing. It's the age of the internet- why not disguise your face and make a bunch money from randos?
But, people do get trafficked into the cam business. I recently watched a doc about young girls who escaped N. Korea only to have their 'coyotes' lock them in a house for years, "paying back the money owed" by being forced to do cam shows. That is horrible, of course.
But the willing operators shouldn't be punished for that. How do viewers determine who has been trafficked?
I think the only solution is to crack down on the middlemen: the pimps, the coyotes and snatchers, the gangs- those who are profiting off of selling others' bodies. Focusing on johns is pointless because they are a dime a dozen.
It's called the world's oldest profession for a reason. It ain't going anywhere. The only solution is to make it safer for the workers.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Are porn actors forced live where they work and are the windows barred and doors sealed so they can't leave, and are they watched by surveillance video cameras?
This is whataboutism at its worst. You are defending a heinous practice. Perpetrated against real humans. Why are you doing that?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)So why conflate slavery with prostitution, when they can be considered two separate issues?
Prosecute the slavery, not the line of work....be it prostitution, agriculture, manufacturing, etc.
Society doesn't criminalize the agriculture industry, even though many in that industry are forced to work there in harsh conditions.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)If a person forces another to do something against their wishes, then that person should be prosecuted in accordance with the law.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)...without any empirical data?
Squinch
(59,522 posts)doubtless you have passed prostitutes on a street at some time in your life.
When you see prostitutes on the street, or when you hear about Back Page, or when you read about Asian women in barred rooms in Rhode Island or Florida, do you think most of them are doing it of their own free will?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)In my lifetime, I have not had the opportunity to observe or interact with enough prostitutes to come to a conclusion about most prostitutes.
Forming an opinion about most prostitutes, while never having observed but a handful of prostitutes, is not smart at all IMHO.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)industry.
You will not even venture a guess whether it is a large percentage or a small percentage.
Yet you seem to be pretty comfortable taking the stance that johns should not be considered traffickers.
By your own admission, you don't know whether 90% or 1% of them are engaging in sex with trafficked women - i.e., rape.
Yet you don't seem to have any difficulty forming the opinion that those johns are not involved in human trafficking.
Your refusal to form opinions without empirical evidence is very selective, isn't it?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Now it's a question about a "large percentage" of prostitutes
Those are two very different measurables.
I already acknowledged that many sex workers are in it because they have to, not because they want to. And I already said instances of forced labor should be prosecuted, independent of the specific labor itself.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)questions that don't support your defense of the almighty rights of johns, many of whom are raping trafficked women.
Your quibbles tell me all I need to know.
You'll need to have the last word, so have at it.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)But your original question asked about "most* prostitutes...which is a vastly different measurable. Because to accurately form a belief about most, one would have to observe the entirety.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)GoCubsGo
(34,914 posts)They might not be the ones actually bringing these women into their ring, but it's their money that's paying for it. None of this happens without their money.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)manifested through an incredible range of individual choices possible.
Inevitably, of course, some will always use that looseness to behave harmfully. And that's where society has an interest and duty. Would a secularly governed society have a compelling interest in allowing it between consenting individuals but illegal as a business, so no pimps and houses?
The urge to sex is one of the most implacably ineradicable pursuits of "happiness" the human race has, though. And these days empowerment of women has created new large numbers of involuntarily celibate men. This is inconsonant with a healthy society and a problem that manifests through various seriously negative behaviors, including electing Trump. Being able to pay for sex isn't any kind of solution, but it can be a bit of a valve.
Btw, absent a compelling societal need for eliminate sex for remuneration -- which has not been established by secular arguments, arguing that prostitution should be illegal instead of protected by our right to privacy under the constitution weakens our claims to a right to privacy for other uses of our bodies, such as same-sex and interracial behaviors, contraception, how many children can we have or if we can be refused children, and many other choices.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)
nycbos
(6,715 posts)Mendocino
(8,492 posts)Skyler-So Walt, you're a drug dealer ?
Walt-No, I'm a drug manufacturer.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Comparing women and children to drugs? Johns are very much the problem, they are abusers.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Or are you of the opinion that every act of prostitution necessarily involves abuse?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)that is the point. Johns are shopping where it is known that abuse is rampant. Listen, I am not condemning every John everywhere, but younger girls through "agencies", asian massage parlors are clearly bad. It is supporting a very bad industry.
I wonder how many women are prostitutes as a "career choice" versus a bad situation (poverty, drug addiction, trafficking, etc.) I doubt very many...
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Is that John also an abuser himself?
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)hell yes. If not, and that's a woman`s career choice no. But abuse and trafficking are so common, how do we know? I don't support abusive industries.
Snackshack
(2,587 posts)If the “John” who arranges an escort to come to his/her hotel room is a “human/sex trafficker” also because of his/her actions is that same “John” also guilty of that charge a second time because the hotel company uses/takes advantage of undocumented workers in order to pay an absurdly low wage for housekeeping/services. Is the person who views adult content the trafficker?
If the addict is also the “drug trafficker” what about the person who buys a product from a company with low morals that manufacturers products using “child/slave labor”. Is that person a trafficker as well?
I understand the thought process of your post and it certainly has a logical progression to it and part of me agrees because it does make sense but part of me does not agree because if applied fairly it would have a wise range of effects. No business exists if there are no customers.
A thought from a slightly different angle. A person who commits a mass shooting is obviously responsible for it. But there are some who feel the manufacturer bears responsibility also but there would be no manufacturer if there were no customers so ultimately is the customer base responsible, how about for alcohol, many people die every year from thing people do while intoxicatied or what about the current pressing issue today with the opioid epidemic.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Along with all their documents seized by the drug runners and forced to be sold until some nebulous time their debts are paid then I might agree.
Actually no! You have set up a sophomoric argument comparing a commodity to an actual human.
The comparison is so insulting it deserves no discussion.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The comparisons reveal more than folk realize about how these women are viewed in society.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Funny how you and I strongly agree or disagree depending on the issue.
Why I love DU!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Some of the responses to this thread have me seeing red!
If the women being trafficked were from Germany, France or Norway the discussion on DU and in the nation at large would be very different.
I am pissed. We should not see this shit on DU.
Yavin4
(37,182 posts)Really? Then you need to do some research.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)You are comparing a commodity, a drug, with living, breathing human beings?
I drink too much bourbon. The alcohol companies make a fortune. I am harmed. I got it.
If you can’t see the difference between me drinking too much bourbon and me fucking enslaved women from China, then we dont have much grounds for discussion. Commodity vs humans. And I refuse to see Chinese women as commodities!
Your argument compares poor, enslaved women from China with the bourbon I drink or the drugs sold to users. And is so sophomoric an argument I don’t know where to start!
I did not study much philosophy in college being a science major, but enough to see the mile wide holes in your premise.
Yavin4
(37,182 posts)So, yes, that joint you smoke or that heroin you shoot comes at a huge cost of human lives. Just google Juarez, Mexico as a start:
https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/world/2018/07/17/juarez-50-most-dangerous-cities-world/791543002/
https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/local/juarez/2018/06/29/juarez-mexico-border-city-murders-rise-violent-crime-june-2018/743653002/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2916766/Two-murders-day-horrific-kidnappings-police-don-t-dare-enter-Inside-ghost-towns-Mexico-s-Murder-Valley-one-deadliest-places-earth.html
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Yavin4
(37,182 posts)That pot you smoked before legalization had a lot of blood attached to it.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)If you're going to start taking the moral high ground about something, you'd better make sure your footing if firm.
Every person on this board buys clothes made in sweat-shop with conditions so close to slavery it's hard to call it much different.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)This OP compares a commodity with actual living and breathing human women!
I drink too much bourbon. The liquor company make money off me and harms my health. I got it.
But you are seriously comparing my bourbon drinking or a drug users habit with an actual human!
Like me fucking an enslaved Chinese women is the same or drinking too much bourbon or using herion? That is such an undefensible position.
Stop reading GQ articles about high end call women living the high life. It’s bullshit.
Sex trafficking of Asian women is huge in this country. We liberals should uniformly be against it. These rub and tug places in Florida would not exist without sex trafficking.
I can’t help wondering if the women were from Norway or Germany the response would be different.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)A paid sexually act, but it’s very nature, unless masturbation, demands another person.
And if in Florida with a person from Asia that is being paid for, there is a good chance she is a sex slave. Came here for a promised good job, doesn’t speak any English and had all he documents taken from her on arrival.
I don’t know. Call me a liberal. But I want that shit stopped.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Unless you are of the opinion that no prostitute controls the usage of his/her own body.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Maybe not the $1000 dollar a ‘date’ kind.
But the huge majority of prostitution in this country is by enslaved immigrants who don’t control their bodies.
Like we just saw here in Florida. 79$ dollars for the deed with a Chinese sex slave. For a Billionaire.
That is the face of prostitution in America.
Keep defending that if you wish.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Where slavery exists, prosecute the slavery. I have repeatedly said that here.
However, IMO it is foolish to prosecute slavery where it does not exist (consensual paid for sexual activities for example)
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"it is foolish to prosecute slavery where it does not exist..."
Almost as foolish as your implicit premise that women are in fact, commodities; and in so far that your comparisons between drugs and women merely validate that foolish premise.
"Did you watch the entire video? If you didn't I suggest you do..."
Progressive Law
(617 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I don't know why you feel it necessary to fall all over yourself arguing in favor of legalized prostitution and insisting that it is merely a harmless vice that represents a mutually voluntary act between equal partners, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, but your arguments have gone from the ridiculous to the inane.
And your suggestion that prostitution shouldn't be outlawed because some women have sex for money without being abused is just as illogical as arguing that we shouldn't ban assault weapons as long as there are some people somewhere who actually use assault weapons only for target practice.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Rather, prosecute it when there is a lack of consent.
When there is empirical data that suggests there is no significant number of prostitutes who do it out of their own free will, I may reconsider your other arguments.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Because she said she didn't?
Because one of the hallmarks of the relationships between trafficked women and their johns and pimps is the open and honest communication that enable the women to say when she's being forced to do something she doesn't want to do - along with the sense of trust and security that encourages her to tell law enforcement and other outsiders that she's being exploited.
Why are you waiting for "empirical evidence otherwise"? You haven't seen evidence that prostitution is deeply harmful to women? Perhaps you should do some more research before lecturing us here.
And even if you can't find any "empirical evidence" that prostitution is harmless to most prostitutes, in the meantime, why are you so adamant about erring on the side of the johns instead of the abused women?
Good Lord.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Determining when a prostitute's consent exists is different than acknowledge that a prostitute's consent can exist.
Without any other evidence to point to, the only thing we can go by is an adult's word that h/she either consents or doesn't. If other evidence does exist (such as a pimp, paper trail, etc) then that evidence might negate or support the prostitute's word.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)The OP has several threads going on this topic, but is posing as an enlightened progressive person who is only talking about consensual sex between adults. In this guise he wants us to believe all prostitution laws are just a puritanical hangup.
Why did he bring this up and vigorously pursue it while all our minds are on the worst of the worst? It feels to me like a deliberate conflation of the very real issues. It makes me wonder why.
Edited to add: As you are discovering, he is also setting up one straw man after another...
Progressive Law
(617 posts)...people would refrain from speaking for me though.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Transparent as hell.
58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)...as if the prior must necessarily co-exist with the latter.
58Sunliner
(6,330 posts)"conflating prostitution with slavery." No one has said that. The reference in your post is to human trafficking and drug trafficking, equating a drug user to a creep who pays for sex from trafficked women. Another false analogy on your post. I'm sure we will never really know why you are compelled to defend the poor Johns of the world, and why it seems to be such a pertinent issue. I can only guess why you are comfortable ignoring the reality of prostitution to the point where you think pimps are ok. I'm not going to respond further because I think you are grossly disingenuous.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)And multiple posters here have suggested prostitution necessarily involves slavery.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Human trafficking /= legal and state regulated prostitution nor porn. Moreover, degradation of women in porn is not the exclusive nor even most prevalent form of porn. Even then that's just another subset of kink so long as all parties are consenting without duress or coercion. Like any other form of work, sex work needs regulations to protect from coercion and harm, along with the enforcement procedures to back them up, and it will be fine. A loose example would be child labor. Individuals being forced to work either against their will or in conditions that are totally unsuitable for their safety. Exceptions are made where the labor is necessary (farming for instance) or low risk so long as guidelines are followed. Obviously, sex work isn't something anyone would readily call necessary per se, but for many it may be the only immediate prospect for income when hurting for income. But sometimes, this is hard to conceive I know, but sometimes people aren't under that strain and just decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies. We demand women be given full agency over their own bodies when others try to control them, and then turn around and demand they give up full agency over their own bodies when they decide for themselves to monetize it? What kind of fuckery is that?
All that said, if you even read this far, what about everyone else? What about male prostitutes? What about gays and lesbians, or transgender prostitutes? What about porn filmed for the female eye? Or gay porn with its broad spectrum of audiences? What about the amateurs in business for themselves? Individuals and couples?
Like I said, every time this subject matter comes up, they are all erased from existence because they're inconvenient living, breathing facts and often the people coming to the rescue for *just* the female prostitutes and pornstars display homophobia whether they mean to or not when called out on the discrepancy. They won't show the same vociferous defense of our non-cis brothers/sisters/non-conforming and will either ignore or actively silence voices pointing out their hypocrisy.
Regulate the work to protect from harm and coercion like any other industry, put in place the enforcement vehicles, and shut the fuck up about bodies that aren't yours to decide for.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)...that I have repeatedly referenced both female and male prostitutes in this discussion. But I get your point.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Voices of reason are often out-shouted. Thank you for trying at least.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)They too should have better economic opportunities. More often than women, they do. But if they don't, the situation is equally as egregious.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)... the more appropriate/respectful term imho.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Individuals like this lady are out there, and they just want people to respect their choices. Huffington Post has several articles in which people who happen to do sex work share some enlightening perspectives.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Prostitution is what it is. It is not just selling widgets. A provider gives something of value outside their body. Good grief, you think that's an improvement and more respectful? Now you've completely dehumanized the woman. At least when she was a "prostitute" a difference was acknowledges between providing some sort of useful service and the use of one's body.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)They use it.
You are arguing these people are professional providing a service. A service no one should have to provide, as it involves the use of their person. Their private parts. That's not providing a service like medical or accounting. Something one needs training or knowledge to do.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Maybe it makes their customers feel better, which they may as well allow. It is not something women aspire to by choice.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)If a provider tells me that he/she prefers the term "provider", then I will respect his/her wishes. I wish more people would show the same amount of respect.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)They knew what the situation was.
Anyone who uses any type of prostitution has serious issues. No one dreams they will grow up to be a prostitute.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)
Captain Stern
(2,253 posts)Words mean things.
The sex trafficking industry wouldn't exist without 'Johns', but 'Johns' aren't 'human/sex traffickers. They are customers.
Saying that 'Johns' are human sex traffickers is like saying that the people that buy illegal drugs are drug dealers.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Drugs are "illegal" contraband. Prostitutes are not. They are human beings.
People who buy drugs ingest them into their systems. People who buy prostitutes inflict themselves on them.
However you feel about prostitution or whether it should be legalized, you cannot equate prostitution with the drug trade - at least not without ignoring the humanity of the women involved.
Captain Stern
(2,253 posts)However, we shouldn't be trying to change the definitions of words just because human trafficking is worse than the drug trade.
A 'john' is a prostitute's client, no more, and no less.
The 'johns' that pay for prostitutes that are being trafficked may be just as much responsible for the plight of these women as the person(s) that are actually trafficking the victims, but that still doesn't make a 'john' a human trafficker......just like the person that only uses illegal drugs isn't a drug dealer.
Yavin4
(37,182 posts)Just google Juarez, Mexico to get an idea of the human toll that the drug trade takes.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Demand creates supply. Human trafficking is horrible. That can't be stated enough. The subject of prostitution in general however is more complex and I don't believe it is inherently immoral.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211860740
A federal judge has ruled that Secretary of Labor Alex Acosta, when he was a U.S. attorney in Miami, broke the law in a sex trafficking case against a billionaire New York hedge fund manager by not informing his underage sex victims of a plea agreement.
U.S. District Judge Kenneth Mirra on Thursday gave federal prosecutors 15 days to respond to his ruling involving Jeffrey Epstein...
In his blistering ruling, however, Judge Mirra said the Acosta team broke the Crime Victims Rights Act law by concealing the plea agreement from the victims.
The Herald reports it was able to identify 80 victims – many between 13-16 years of age at the time – who said Epstein had sexually abused or molested them between 2001-2006. Eight of them agreed to be interviewed by the Herald, four on video.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/02/22/judge-slams-labor-secretary-acostas-role-2008-sex-case-plea-deal/2949649002/
The plea deal struck by Acosta essentially shut down an ongoing FBI probe that could have implicated other powerful men in human-trafficking of underage sexual victims.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Not Johns in general
TexasBushwhacker
(21,204 posts)That's not to demonize drug users. I think the war on drugs is totally backwards. We need to 1) treat drug addiction as a public health problem and 2) address the reasons people turn to drugs in the first place.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)everyone here actually agrees that human trafficking is heinous and must be stopped. Can we just agree with that and let everyone have their own opinions about peripheral issues?
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Consider the number of posters here who have objected to a person's right to use his/her own bodies as a commodity.
That is an entirely different reason that objecting to prostitution based on human trafficking reasons. Because if human trafficking was eliminated, they still would be opposed to legalized prostitution based on the "body as commodity" morality argument.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)human trafficking comes from the fact that they just don't give a shit if people are enslaved and trafficked, as long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to cheaply get their rocks off.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Johns who patronize these operations should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I don't remember reading anyone saying otherwise, and if someone posted that, they are just plain wrong.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Consider the number of posters here who have objected to a person's right to use his/her own bodies as a commodity..."
No more so than: Consider the number of posters here who have conflated a person with a commodity to better validate their own narratives and desires.
Progressive Law
(617 posts)Yavin4
(37,182 posts)These people use their bodies as commodities. Some with long term very negative health consquences. But, there's no call for making these activities illegal.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Or don't want to. After all, it is just a woman (and a few unfortunate men but we can waive off their existence). Women are supposed to be used for sex, and further, it is just so fortunate that they like it! Kind of like how women get paid less for the same other work because they "choose" to take lower paying jobs or not work as hard, because they need to leave time for housework and child care that men don't want to do and don't have to because women happen to just prefer it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)One should be allowed to be addicted to drugs if that is how one wants to treat one's body. It's the damage being done that makes liberals want to help those people get a better way of life.
If using your body as a commodity is a great way of making a lot of money, there's still damage to one's life being caused. You're pretending that these women just love the job and it's a great way to make money and if you can make more money that way than in some other job, it's a reasonable "choice" to make that will result in nothing bad for you afterward. I think that is what some men want to believe as they apparently need this "service" and it makes them feel better to see the 'providers' as seeing it in that light.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)(Reuters) - Florida prosecutors on Monday filed formal charges against Robert Kraft, the billionaire owner of the New England Patriots football team, and about two dozen other men for soliciting prostitution at massage parlors, authorities said on Monday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-robert-kraft/patriots-owner-kraft-formally-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting-idUSKCN1QE2BA
He's not been charged with trafficking.
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)By the way, none of those guys will be charged with trafficking. Johns are not considered that, at least for now.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)I've been following the sex workers' rights movement for about twenty years, and am familiar with much of the literature about prostitution. Here are some links to give you food for thought:
From Amnesty International:
We have chosen to advocate for the decriminalization of all aspects of consensual adult sex - sex work that does not involve coercion, exploitation or abuse. This is based on evidence and the real-life experience of sex workers themselves that criminalization makes them less safe.
We reached this position by consulting a wide array of individuals and groups, including but not limited to: sex workers, survivor and abolitionist groups, HIV agencies, women’s and LGBTI rights activists, Indigenous women’s groups, anti-trafficking groups and leading academics.
We spent more than two years gathering evidence through meetings with hundreds of individuals and organizations. We conducted first-hand research into the lived experience of sex workers under different national and legal contexts.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/08/sex-workers-rights-are-human-rights/
See also:
Sex Workers and Erotic Service Provider Legal, Educational and Research Project
https://esplerp.org/
Need to Know: Debating Legalized Prostitution
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2007/02/debating_legalized_prostitutio.html
Sex Workers Project
http://sexworkersproject.org/
IluvPitties
(3,185 posts)Progressive Law
(617 posts)It's disrespectful to the people who have chosen that line of work. Everyone here has acknowledged the problem of human trafficking. So please show the same courtesy and acknowledge the adult's inherent right to control their own body, independent of your personal moral values. Stop shaming it. Thank you.
Response to Progressive Law (Reply #354)
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