So, what would happen if men didn't patronize places where sex-trafficking happens?

[MineralMan]

Some are trying to say that those men aren't responsible for sex-trafficking. I have a different view. If you go to strip-mall "massage" places where very young women with no options or underaged girls perform sex acts on you for your $50-75, then it seems to me that you're equally as guilty of sex-trafficking as the people who run those places.

I mean, if you didn't go there, and nobody like you went there, those places would be closed. If you didn't have the "need" to be serviced by someone too young to make adult decisions or someone who was brought here illegally, they wouldn't be here to service you. No demand, no supply.

So, you guys who want anonymous ejaculations will just have to take things into your own hands, or you're causing the problem. Truly you are. There's no getting around it. So, you know, man up and stop paying for children or virtual slaves to perform sex acts on you. Just stop it. Grow up and find outlets for your "needs" or do without.

Because you are the reason sex trafficking occurs. Just fucking stop that shit. Thanks!

[TheFarseer]

1. I don't get why they can't just

Whack off. So much easier. Costs nothing. No one gets hurt.

[FakeNoose]

2. Every town has zoning ordinances

... and the main purpose is to keep nefarious-type businesses away from the innocent families. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm saying that there's no reason for these businesses to be operating near citizens who would take offense. If some people choose to drive out to the countryside for their x-rated materials and services, well ok. That's how it used to be but not anymore. Now it's in your face right out in the open in the same neighborhoods as schools and/or churches. They need to be shut down, and if they've paid bribes to local authorities, need to deal with that too.

[MineralMan]

5. All of which has nothing to do with my post.

I'm not talking about laws or zoning or any such thing. I'm talking about men who go to such places for their jollies, and have people who are virtual slaves or under the age of consent service their "needs."

This has nothing to do with sex work performed by people of legal age who choose that kind of work. This is about something else altogether - sex trafficking. That's illegal everywhere, no matter what zoning laws say.

The men who patronize such businesses are just as responsible as the people who run them.

[FakeNoose]

7. OK yep, I was making a parallel point

Not disagreeing, but adding to yours. The places need to be shut down. People need to stop using their services.

[eggplant]

22. Their location isn't relevent.

Moving them out of view of the general public doesn't in any way deprive them of "customers".

[saidsimplesimon]

27. "People need to stop using their services."

I thought that was the point of the AP, supply and demand? Take away the demand and....perhaps upscale, rump tower vicinity, Manhattan kiddie sex slave and porn shops might be closed and or prosecuted.

[True Blue American]

24. On cable

what is in their minds when they have sex with someone they know despises him?

I heard one of his fans, a middle aged many laugh and say,” Well, he is single,”

[safeinOhio]

75. After reading several of the news

stories, most of the girls turned out to between 45 and 56.
Oh well, seemed much worse.

[Hekate]

76. So involuntary servitude is okay if the woman is mddle-aged and foreign?

There are two scandals in the news this past several days: slavery of foreign adults for sex purposes, and rape of chldren.

One of our progressive posters went out of his way to muddy the waters demanding we discuss and endorse the legalization of prostitution -- in several OPs and threads.

Don't be confused. There are two cases, and neither is about consensual sex, regardless of how much money changes hands.

[safeinOhio]

83. I tell what I know from the streets

in post #79. I’m not about to lump every one in some group I have no knowledge of. I could sit here and tell you stories about hookers and johns I’ve known all night and each story is is different. No 2 are the same.

[Hekate]

91. I did read your post and I thank you for your knowledgable input...

I'm a grownup, a grandma even. I am way past caring what consenting adults do with each other as long as they don't insist I join when I decline.

I am just still suffering a bit of a trigger-hangover from last night -- the Kraft and Epstein scandals should not be elided over by insisting that legalization of prostitution would be the answer somehow.

[safeinOhio]

92. I don't have any answers.

All I know is that those that think they do, don’t.
All I can do is be nice to everyone. I try to.

[Hortensis]

3. Well, don't those who would mostly already do that?

The need for sexual services is paradoxically increasing with "women's lib," not decreasing. Some men always needed, or just wanted, them, but today many who very reasonably expected to grow up to participate in the American dream are finding themselves involuntarily celibate.

Being able to purchase legal, clean and decent sex won't fulfill that dream, of course, but men should be able to seek out these services morally and acceptably respectably, without having to wonder if propositioning a nice looking but clearly professional female on a bar stool could somehow be contributing to trafficking atrocities.

That can't happen where all sex trade is illegal and laws poorly enforced, of course.

As for those who do patronize places where trafficked flesh is offered, imo, they should be prosecuted and sentenced to serious prison time when proven guilty of crimes, and this hardly impossible to achieve. We'd never see all customers take the self-service vow, but we could see almost all with nowhere to go but their own couches.

[MineralMan]

10. You know, I don't know. I don't know anyone who patronizes such places.

I have no problem with sex workers at all. If they're doing that as a way to make a living and are not being virtually enslaved, then I think they should be able to. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking strictly about sex-trafficking and the men who choose to take advantage of it.

[Hortensis]

11. Yes, THOSE men, most of whom are drawn by

the opportunity to abuse, and the current threats only deter some.

As it happens, we hired someone related to and recommended a neighbor to pressure wash our house last week, and within 15 minutes of smiling chat he managed to insult me 3 or 4 times. Very obliquely, of course, but including completely unnecessarily declaring his intention of getting "an Oriental woman" as his next partner. Although I was just a modern castrating bitch who'd innocently triggered all this by existing, I had no trouble properly interpreting the messages as intended. I'm guessing he might take his hostility to these places. BIG yuck!

[malaise]

4. It's a nice excuse

I wasn't the one involved in human trafficking - I didn't know...blah blah blah!
Fuck them all and lock them up.

Imagine how many are now worried about being on tape. I'm watching the divorce courts

[MineralMan]

8. Oh, they know, alright. In fact, they seek out

the underaged and the illegally here. They know they won't tell. They go to places like strip mall "massage" parlors to get off because it's more anonymous and less costly. They want that experience. I say throw them all in prison for long terms for supporting exploitation of people who have no choices. And then, set up programs to help the people they exploited. Treat them like refugees and give them an education, places to live safely and a path to citizenship.

Screw those nasty old men.

[EffieBlack]

13. They're not looking for sex. They're looking to subjugate women

[MineralMan]

14. I don't know what they're looking for.

I don't know anyone like that, to tell you the truth.

There's something bad wrong with such people, so I avoid them like the plague.

[Ilsa]

85. Exactly. And I wouldn't want to be married to someone like that, and

I wouldn't want my father marrying me off to someone like that, either.

[True Blue American]

28. Are women allowed

To visit those places,too?

Note the sarcasm in my post.

[malaise]

38. Don't have a clue

but we both know better - the men make the rules for themselves and then preach about their fake family values.

[True Blue American]

42. Of course.

[EffieBlack]

6. THANK YOU!

[MineralMan]

9. My pleasure! I hate that some men do things like that, knowing that they

are contributing to other people's misery. Even wealthy men, who could easily find someone to service them willingly. Those men, in particular deserve society's scorn and punishment.

[EffieBlack]

12. And, perhaps, just as troubling are the number of people eager to jump to their defense

with the "men gonna men" argument

[MineralMan]

16. I agree completely.

There is no defense for it. None.

[eggplant]

26. Penn Jillette has a good quote related to this.

The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you.

[MaryMagdaline]

59. Nice summary of what it means to be human

Thank you!

[True Blue American]

31. Thank you Effie!

[bullwinkle428]

15. I think it's a total power thing for these assholes, KNOWING FULL WELL

that they're dealing with young women (or even girls) that are in an incredibly vulnerable position in life. The exact same kind of person that gets his rocks off pushing around a low-level service employee in just about any kind of business that you can think of. I know of where I speak with regards to that particular scenario.

[IluvPitties]

19. Most Asian women arrested for prostitution in Florida happen to be in their 50s.

Most women in Asian Massage Parlors are far from young.

[EffieBlack]

20. You know this how?

Care to share your source?

[IluvPitties]

21. Easy.

1) News reports of busts here in Florida (the newspaper) and 2) florida.arrests.org

Search the prostitution arrests and look the info on arrested Asian women for that crime. Consistently, we are talking about women in their 50s.

[EffieBlack]

23. Again, care to share your source?

Surely you have a more specific link since you seem to have studied the arrest records of Asian women in Florida very carefully.

[IluvPitties]

29. Here

A quick Google search... all of this is public.

[link:https://www.wfla.com/news/sarasota-county/fdle-arrests-6-for-asian-massage-parlor-prostitution-sting-4-locations-in-sarasota-county/994985780|

[link:https://www.wfla.com/news/3-women-arrested-in-massage-parlor-prostitution-sting/994872334|

[link:https://patch.com/new-jersey/hillsborough/hillsborough-masseuse-busted-prostitution-prosecutor|

There are hundreds of articles about these busts. Look at the ages.

[EffieBlack]

44. Your cites list 9 Asian women arrested for prostitution. 4 of them were 50 or older

These handful of women you culled from articles pulled over the past three years hardly supports your claim that "most Asian women arrested for prostitution in Florida happen to be in their 50s."

FYI, the older women charged with prostitution in Kraft's case were helping to run the massage parlors - they weren't necessarily the ones turning the tricks (the young prostitutes probably weren't charged with a crime but were instead likely treated as crime victims). And since I seriously doubt that Kraft and his buddies were paying to have sex with haggard women in their 50s and 60s, your argument just doesn't work.

[MineralMan]

49. In most places, underaged girls are not arrested in such stings.

Instead, they are treated as victims. In Minnesota, our legislature passed laws to that effect. You won't see underaged trafficked women in arrest reports, because they aren't arrested. They are helped by groups who specifically try to help women who are being exploited. Their names are not made public.

I don't know if Florida has similar laws, but it sounds like that state does, as well.

Too many people draw the wrong conclusions from news stories, I think.

[EffieBlack]

53. "Too many people draw the wrong conclusions from news stories, I think"

Claiming that a few elderly, beat-up looking women are the ones the johns are paying money to have sex with in massage parlors isn't "drawing the wrong conclusion." It's an intentional misdirection.

The question is why?

[MineralMan]

58. Why? I don't know why people are doing that.

It's spreading misinformation, but for what reason? This is all really disturbing.

[IluvPitties]

52. I could be wrong. I don't mind admiting it.

After all, my knowledge of these issues is peripheral. I go by what I read, and most of the women busted in these operations are not spring chickens.

[MineralMan]

37. The people arrested at those places are the people

who run them, not the girls. That's why they're older.

[IluvPitties]

43. You know, I am not so sure.

I have not read or heard of any busts around here in FL in which any of these places was housing minors or young women, for that matter. Not to say these older ladies are not being trafficked themselves, but a quick search of news and arrest records indicated most of those involved in that business are actually older individuals.

[MineralMan]

55. I do know, and you are incorrect.

Sex trafficking laws in most states treat the women who are being trafficked as victims, not criminals. They are not arrested, but are connected with organizations that help such victims. You don't see their names because their names are not made public. Think beyond the headlines and learn more about this issue. You'll find that people have been finding ways to help victims of sex trafficking. Arresting them is no longer the way it is handled in most civilized places.

You are "not so sure," because you do not have any idea what you're talking about. You're just reading the news, but not looking into the problem in any real way, I think.

Take our word for it, please. Go look something up for your area about sex trafficking.

[IluvPitties]

60. Thanks for the info.

I respect your tone, as you are very passionate about the issue, up to the point of bluntly accusing me of being ignorant about it (which I could be), without going personal. I still have my ideas about it, and still think what two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, even if money is involved.

However, I will look more into the topic in hopes of learning more.

[True Blue American]

45. Good answer!

[EffieBlack]

46. Thank you

The girls being pimped out aren't arrested in these raids. They are treated as victims.

(I can't even believe this discussion is happening ...)

[MineralMan]

51. Well, I know the laws in Minnesota, and that's how they are treated here.

Their names are never made public, and shouldn't be. I think there are some people who want not to recognize that people are being exploited and used. They don't like to think about that, so they don't.

[True Blue American]

34. Good question.:)

[Hekate]

81. So I'm sure that makes it okay for them to be enslaved.

Fairly certain you didn't mean that.

[IluvPitties]

89. Of course I did not say or mean that!

I just went by what is published in terms of the demographic information of those arrested! Why in the world would anyone think it's ok to enslave anyone? I know this is a hot button issue, but people need to stop making assumptions about other people's morals or character based on some online forum discussion.

[mopinko]

17. my ex liked his porn. it was an issue. we compromised-

just no porn that isnt about consenting adults.
i caught him w a dvd of "hot asian teens". i told him- you realize those girls are probably all dead now, right?
after that he developed a taste for silver beavers.

[oldsoftie]

41. Ok, that LAST line made me bust out laughing!

[IluvPitties]

18. In agreement.

For instance, legalize prostitution so that it can be regulated and the rights and safety of those participating can be protected.

[Lucky Luciano]

32. Amsterdam is full of trafficked women and girls too.

Tough problem.

[IluvPitties]

35. I am assuming having people register and being able to monitor them

has to help governments identify trafficking operations easier. This is just an assumption.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

63. Anybody know if Nevada has a higher or lower amount

Of sex trafficking?

[IluvPitties]

65. It is only legal in some area, not in Las Vegas...

and I have been there, and prostitution is rampant there.

I will let the experts here answer that.

[MineralMan]

66. Prostitution is illegal in Nevada, except for 11 rural counties.

It's illegal in Clark County, where Las Vegas is located. So, any sex that is paid for in Vegas is illegal. What that means is that there is a lot of sex trafficking in Las Vegas. A lot!

For more information, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Nevada

[IluvPitties]

68. Quick question for you

Should prostitution be legal, in your view?

[MineralMan]

70. I don't know, actually.

I have no particular problem with adults accepting money for consensual sex. If that were all that was involved, then I wouldn't have any problem with prostitution. Unfortunately, that is not the situation in many cases. All too often, prostitution involved victimization of the people providing sex. I am opposed to that completely.

So, as prostitution exists in typical situations, I think it is wrong and should be against the law.

On the other hand, I have known a couple of sex workers who were not exploited by anyone. They were also never arrested or likely to be arrested, because they did not operate in ways you'd normally associate with prostitution.

I know nothing, personally, about prostitution as it is carried on in most places. I know none of the people involved, so I cannot say how they are treated or whether they are being mistreated by others. It's just not part of the environment I'm familiar with.

However, if a person takes money for sex voluntarily, without any coercion, I see no reason for that to be a crime, in itself. The reality is that people involved in prostitution of that variety are never arrested, actually, so nobody really knows about them. It goes on everywhere, but on a small, quiet scale that doesn't attract attention.

[IluvPitties]

71. Thanks for the great response.

I am in total agreement with you.

[aeromanKC]

25. They'd just go to Craigslist

It's not called the worlds oldest profession for nothing.

[eggplant]

33. It's not a profession.

It's exploitation of sex-trafficked minors.

[aeromanKC]

62. Don't shoot the messenger

I didn't come up with that. Exploitation of sex trafficked minors? Yes it is that in this scenario. Sure would be nice to have laws on the books that severly deals with "Johns" in such cases. You could say 10 years plus in prison or more, but then the 8th amendment comes into play. Unfortunately a misdemeanor isn't doing the trick. The sex trafficking angle sure has promise on the 8th amendment thing, but doesn't address your sisters friend Sally trying to pickup some extra tuition money. Like the saying says, worlds oldest profession.

[Progressive Law]

64. And what about the non-trafficked adult providers?

Is prostitution "not a profession" for them either?

[eggplant]

69. I have zero problem with non-exploitative consensual sex work.

It is the exploitive (sex-trafficked) non-consensual (minors) that is the problem.

[PWPippinesq]

30. Indeed!

you guys "will just have to things into your own hands". . .

[True Blue American]

36. Anyone think where

Those young girls moved in the dead of night from the border wonder where they are now?

[Hekate]

78. A lot of us wonder, and a lot of us are sickened by the prospects.

The speculation was all over DU when the news about family separation and kiddie cages broke.

[oldsoftie]

39. If nobody goes, they wouldnt exist. It really is that simple.

I'm a guy. I have never been able to understand how a guy can have sex with a woman who has no interest in them other than their cash. And ESPECIALLY how can they do it with someone who is being made to do it.

[True Blue American]

48. Thank you!

[Miigwech]

40. Well said! Real men won't do this to real women!

[hunter]

47. You are missing the sex-with-slaves horror of this.

That's what many of these men are seeking.

And the rest feel so bad about themselves they think this is the best they deserve.

[True Blue American]

50. Come on now. It is simply power.

No pity party for the sad, neglected male.

[hunter]

67. Your reply would be kicked and recommended if I could.

No pity parties for the sad, neglected males.

[MineralMan]

61. No, actually, I'm not missing that. It's just not the subject of this thread.

I look at a man who is the owner of the championship NFL team, and he's patronizing a cheap, fake "massage" place. What on earth is that about? Who is that man? I can guess about why he goes to such places, but I don't actually know.

It could be what you suggest. It also could be something else that's wrong with him. What I'm certain of, though, is that it's not a normal thing for a man in his position to do. Something is badly wrong with his psyche. In his position, he could easily have someone to service him whenever he wanted to on a paid basis. He does not do that. He goes to a run-down strip mall and has some sort of sexual act performed on him by an anonymous young Asian woman whose name he does not even know. I cannot imagine what mind-set would lead to such a thing. There's something terribly wrong with that man.

[hunter]

72. He can't get it off with women he doesn't consider himself superior to.

There is no other explanation.

I said in another thread he's probably had some performance issues with $10,000 hookers and Viagra.

[oldsoftie]

80. I dont get it either. And he was one of MANY who can afford what you said.

I've known a few arrogant wealthy guys over the years. But they all were proud of the arm candy they could attract based on who they were. I cant see what THOSE guys would ever get out of a visit to this place.

[stonecutter357]

54. K&R

[RGinNJ]

56. Hell would have frozen over.

[lark]

57. Thank you Mineral Man.

[Honeycombe8]

73. Might as well ask, "What if rain didn't fall?" LOL.

I think men regard women who are prostitutes (which is how these men see them) as low class. So they are unconcerned about anything regarding the women's welfare. They "choose" to do that, and they are paying customers.

There is logic to that, for real prostitutes. But these were not what we would think of as real prostitutes, I guess. Would these men have known the difference? I'm not being sarcastic. Really asking.

[The Mouth]

74. Billboards and publications here (Sonoma County) making it clear there is

NO SUCH THING AS A "CHILD PROSTITUTE", only child rape.

Not that I've ever utilized a sex worker, but they should be legal, regulated and unionized, IMHO. There's no less dignity to making one's living with their vagina than with their vocal chords or hands.

The area between purchased sex and subjugation is porous, and many of the "men" visiting these places, as with rapists, are looking for the ability to dominate and abuse, not an orgasm.

[appleannie1943]

77. No John, no need for a Jane

[safeinOhio]

79. In the 80s I was an addict living in

Detroit. Got to know the streets pretty well. Here is what was going on then.
Most of the street hookers were addicts too. They were under the control of pimps for the most part, but not all. None of them worked in massage parlors. I knew one Asian girl that did part time, the rest of the time she was getting a medical degree at the U of M.
Not saying any of what I saw was normal, nothing is normal in the streets. But many of you sure have it all down on the psychology of the sex trade, at least you think you do. I was lucky and got the help I needed and ended up with a Magna Cum Laude degree in Psyc. No big deal, but I learn every individual is different and to never lump folks into convenant groups.
Men pay for sex for a thousand different reasons, few are the same. Same with sex
Sex workers. Your best chance of finding a girl forced into the trade is on street corners, also the most dangerous place.
Before you start judging, get out in the streets, visit jails and rehabs. Start looking at folks as individuals and not as “those people”. Blame the pimps and Russian gangs for what they do. Stop with thinking you understand the problem. You don’t.

[True Blue American]

87. I have never blamed

The women who are forced into the sex trade. However I do blame the Pimps and others who force them with fear and intimidation. Not to mention those who abuse simply because they can. Anyone wonder who I am referring to?

[IluvPitties]

90. Great post and congratulations on your personal success.

[treestar]

94. What is it we don't know about?

Most liberals would be for helping people get out of all of that, drug addiction and poverty appear to be the issues. We are not judging those individuals. Prostitution because you are an addict is somewhat involuntary in a way and we would rather they were treated for the addiction than ending up in such a state.

[safeinOhio]

95. Some of the women were trafficked.

Some aren’t. Most of those johns are beast, some are your husbands, brothers and father and not all are there for the same reasons, few have mentioned addiction as a reason. In group therapy I heard about famiies of the victims abusing these girls leaving them with no self esteem and no other choice, not pimps and traffickers. And so on and so on. There is a lot more to the stories all of these hurting people could tell you.

[treestar]

99. Being liberal, I would sympathize

If your john is your husband, brother or father you are in a really bad position. Maybe economic desperation. I really doubt that whole thing is entirely voluntary. As a liberal, I would be for better conditions. There seems to be this argument that some people really want to be prostitutes. When there is universal basic income, housing, food, etc. and we see otherwise rich people voluntarily going into this "field" then I might believe those are people who just really like the "job."

[ancianita]

82. First, men have to even care that the women they see are possibly sex-trafficked. They don't.

Those women are "jizz buckets" to them.

Not caring about the women they "use" is how they don't stop spending their time in "those places."

Not caring is how they turn a blind eye to those women as human beings with human rights.

Another supply/demand way to see this is: if you provide the supply, the demand will come. Those outlets must be shut down by law enforcement, which has little incentive to bother when those outlets can easily afford to pay them off to keep doing their dirty business. So there's that.

So. As long as those outlets exist and illegally maintain their existence, their male "customers" will not feel any need to "grow up and find [other] outlets... or do without."

[forgotmylogin]

84. I guess it's similar to how illegal immigration would be curbed even further

if employers stopped hiring non-citizens under the table.

[blueinredohio]

86. And if they didn't sell Viagra

men as old as Kraft and Trump wouldn't need those places.

[True Blue American]

88. So true!

And Insurance pays for it, yet they fight against paying for birth control. Yet fight abortions.

A mans world ? Or Republican/ Evangelical values?

[MineralMan]

96. Not all men develop ED as they age.

Some do, of course, but not all by any means. I don't know the actual stats, though.

[dameatball]

93. I find that a few laps around the mall and a cinnamon bun keeps me in line.

[MineralMan]

97. LOL!

Simple pleasures.

[hughee99]

98. The same thing that would happen if people didn't buy illegal drugs,

People would stop selling them and the illegal business supplying the product would move to something more profitable.