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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould the students who benefited from deceit be expelled?
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Yes
TheBlackAdder
(28,076 posts).
11.17 Falsification, alteration or misrepresentation of official or unofficial records or documents including but not limited to academic transcripts, academic documentation, letters of recommendation, and admissions applications or related documents.
11.21 Any act that gains or is intended to gain an unfair academic advantage may be considered an act of academic dishonesty.
https://policy.usc.edu/files/2018/07/SCampus-2018-19.pdf
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Adrahil
(13,340 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,076 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)They know. Stay tuned for a deluge of kids who..."had no idea."
TheBlackAdder
(28,076 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)school, so....GET YOUR FANNY PERPENDICULAR and get to class."
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Well it worked.
enid602
(8,524 posts)You forgot section 12 of the USC admissions policy, namely if its still warm its welcome.
Zorro
(15,691 posts)She has an impeccable reputation for integrity as the former president of the Aerospace Corporation.
I think Ms. Laughlin will be shown the door.
At one school where I taught a student had admission revoked when, at some point over the summer following admission, the school discovered plagiarism in an application essay for an honors program. It would be very hard to trust that the work they turn in would be their own if they participated (at a parent's direction or not) in an effort to misrepresent themselves in admissions.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)caraher
(6,276 posts)You're alluding to something I am unaware of. Also, my view on this is independent on its impact on any single politician, whether it's someone I support or not.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)caraher
(6,276 posts)4139
(1,893 posts)But if they stay at the school it would be socially real hard
procon
(15,805 posts)They know. These kids might be suffering from Influenza, but they know money got them into a top notch school, not their crappy academic record. They might not know the details, but they have some inkling that someone, someplace, was manipulating the levers of power to finagle a spot for them a prestigious university. They know they didn't work for it and they don't deserve the opportunity, and will probably not do any better at a university than they did in high school.
Why should they have squatters rights simply because their families are wealthy enough to buy them an acceptance letter when there are kids with brilliant academic records who got the door slammed in their faces because their parents weren't rich enough to bribe the right officials.
lostnfound
(16,139 posts)If they flunk out, fine. If they quit from embarassment, fine.
Bad Thoughts
(2,514 posts)Did they enter fake dates and scores for SATs or ACTs on applications?
Did they talk about athleticism on applications?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)And stupid people don't know things.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)These aren't dewy eyed Pollyannas fresh from the turnip truck, they know is needed to get into a good school. It's a ridiculous assumption to say that any kids are clueless about how they suddenly earned a place at a prestigious school despite their D- academic records. Maybe they are stupid, or so stoned they couldn't care less about getting an education. More than likely they know that Mommy will grease the wheels and take care of everything just as she usually does.
They know.
unitedwethrive
(1,997 posts)Private schools inflate grades, since they are being paid lots of money to get their graduates into good colleges. Likely that all the kids in question had decent GPA's but because they coasted through school, never learned what they needed to succeed on standardized tests. So many kids think that their SAT scores are much more due to luck than they actually are.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Some are extremely rigorous with highly demanding college level curriculums
FBaggins
(26,697 posts)Also - I doubt that most of these are D- students faking A+ records.
I'm not familiar with all of the schools involved, but I know that you can have awfully close to a 4.0 and 1300 SAT scores and still not get in to Wake Forest.
obamanut2012
(25,911 posts)Loughlin and Mossimo's girls knew, and a couple others, that's it.
getagrip_already
(14,250 posts)It's fruit from the poisoned tree. They can't be allowed to benefit from a crime meant to enrich them.
Dismiss them, revoke their diplomas. Let the apply somewhere else.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)there was something hinky going on. The process is too involved for the kids not to have known. It's worse than doing taxes.
Any thoughts on the #1 kid on the wait list who had their spot stolen from them?
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)where did they think their test scores came from? The SAT fairy?
And it's not like you would get into college on a rowing crew scholarship without ever setting foot in a boat and then just turn up to the first day and say WTF.
This is as much about the kids (who are legally adults) cheating as the parents.
Even if they didn't know, they didn't earn the spot and should have to reapply on their merits. The kids who did know should be straight up expelled and not allowed to reapply.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Their applications were just held to a lower standard because the admissions team was told they were athletic recruits.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)It is a harder question for the many students who apparently did not know.
I would be inclined to re-evaluate their application without parental influence and let them stay if it appears they would have been admitted anyway. If their application depended on the expectation that they would engage in a certain sports activity - I'd give them the option: participate in it or transfer. Same thing with any performance-based expectation.
ADX
(1,622 posts)...and they're maintaining at least a 3.00 GPA without any disciplinary or ethical infractions...
ProfessorGAC
(64,427 posts)The two situations are incongruent.
ADX
(1,622 posts)...Smart kids can still be unaware of their parents actions, can't they?
ProfessorGAC
(64,427 posts)They're the folks headed to school!
Obliviousness is not a good trait for a college student.
FBaggins
(26,697 posts)It's true that they should know their test scores, GPA, etc. and should be aware of the application that they're supposed to fill out themselves.
However, they wouldn't know that some coach put them on the recruit list for the crew team... or if a bribed proctor changed answers for them on a test.
I think that the school should do a quick review of the original application for those students to evaluate whether the student could have gotten in... combined with a review of their success while at the school. If they didn't know and there's reason to believe that they can be successful at the school... I'd let them stay.
But a reevaluation of any merit-based scholarships is also warranted.
Javaman
(62,444 posts)but didn't cut the mustard to get in on their own merits.
the parents worked it to get their kids that extra "something" to get in. And the kids were happy and thought they made it on their own.
but then, of course, there are the "dumber than a bag of rocks" kids that should at least be, "well how the hell did I get in? I didn't even pass recess" and realized that something was up, but then again...
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)One kid did not understand why the college guidance counselor said he got in through sports. It was in his record. He said no, never did sports.
One mother said if her kid did not make a 35 she was going to keep studying and take it again! Mother and crooked prompter were freaked out that she doesnt know hes changing her answers and she thinks she should keep studying. That girls sister told her parents not to tell the younger sister what was up.
Kids probably knew mom and dad pulled strings, but there are so many legal strings ... calling someone who is a trustee, getting a letter from someone , contributing to school ... they know they are privileged but not necessarily cons.
But yes, bring them all before honor counsel. Give them their due process and see who gets to stay.
FM123
(10,050 posts)they were told that one false move, and those acceptances could be rescinded!
They couldn't let their grades drop, couldn't get in trouble, etc etc so I am thinking that having parents pull money strings should be reason enough for rescinding those acceptances and expelling those kids.
Takket
(21,425 posts)hard to believe the cases with the "fake sports recruiting" could have gone down without the kid knowing.
asiliveandbreathe
(8,203 posts)AJT
(5,240 posts)Beringia
(4,314 posts)to get in honestly.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,280 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:30 PM - Edit history (1)
who actually qualified to be at that school. If they knew or participated they should be expelled; if they didn't they should be offered a place at another school for which they would have qualified, and given the opportunity to quietly transfer. It would be too humiliating for them to stay at the original school even if it wasn't their fault they got in. The parents have really screwed up these kids' lives.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Whether they knew or not, they were admitted under false pretenses and got a slot that someone else may have gotten. They should be shown the door and sent packing.
Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #12)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)in this discussion or anywhere else.
Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #95)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)by GulfCoast.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)There would be no Dreamer kids. Being kicked out and having to go to a less prestigious college wont kill them and might actually help them in th long run.
Let them stay and their parents win.
DBoon
(22,288 posts)You have tried to hijack this thread to spread right wing nonsense
Your posts serve no useful purpose
Response to DBoon (Reply #139)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Or he's just doing a hit and run. Bizarre.
ProfessorGAC
(64,427 posts)Smart enough for college, smart enough to figure out what was going on!
These "kids" were complicit!
Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #13)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
ProfessorGAC
(64,427 posts)I think you know that, too!
Demovictory9
(32,324 posts)they were admitted as member of the crew. You can't keep that secret from the kids.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)Jezebel and Buzzfeed both did a piece on her-- Olivia Jade (as she's known on social media). She wants to be a social media influencer and didn't take class seriously while at college-- it was more for the Instagram backgrounds.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)The message from universities has to be that if you go to these fraudulent extremes then your adult child will be expelled. Otherwise, there is still incentive to do it.
The message from these universities has to protect the admissions process.
DBoon
(22,288 posts)under a pseudonym.
Go through the whole admission process all over.
BigmanPigman
(51,432 posts)Response to DBoon (Reply #17)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
DBoon
(22,288 posts)Dreamers has nothing to do with this thread?
Why did you even make that comment?
Response to DBoon (Reply #134)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hekate
(90,202 posts)Bad Thoughts
(2,514 posts)They should be expelled.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Theres no way they werent aware, and I dont give two fucks about some spoiled-ass rich kid anyway.
happybird
(4,516 posts)All of the articles I've read say the majority of the students were unaware of their parents' actions.
LuvLoogie
(6,855 posts)And then be required to reapply.
msongs
(67,199 posts)Lancero
(2,984 posts)Then they should be stripped of what ever degrees they earned, and if they're still in school they should be removed with any credits earned invalidated.
That said though, if the school accepted students in violation of their acceptance policy then the school has no right to any paid tuition money which should be refunded, while any bribes should be seized as evidence against their parents.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)the parent who paid the original bribe. Perhaps the amount of dirty money used to pay tuition for these students should go into a fund for emergency help for legitimate students at each of the affected schools.
JI7
(89,182 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)Strip the students of that degree? I dont think anyone is alleging that their parents bribed the school for passing grades, just for admittance, which the students themselves may or may not have been aware of.
Bad Thoughts
(2,514 posts)they would have to include fallacious information. It is almost impossible that they did not know.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)There are lots of smart, well qualified students who apply to these schools and dont get accepted. If the student was smart enough to graduate, they were probably smart enough to at least be in contention for a spot at the school. The kids who werent smart enough to be there in the first place likely didnt get a degree. Do you think the parents bragged to them that they bought their way in?
Bad Thoughts
(2,514 posts)... on the Common Application: test dates and scores and extracurricular activities.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Or lying about extracurricular activities. In some cases it was just a matter of a coaches assessment of how good they were at some sport. The more they paid, the more egregious violations youll probably find, though.
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)what makes you think they didn't cheat their way through it? I used to teach at a university and I busted kids for plagiarism all the time.
And as I said above, most of these kids would have known. If you don't sit your SATs and then get something in the mail saying you got a 1400 - that's not going to raise alarm bells?
Ditto all the kids who didn't play sports but got in on sports scholarships.
We're not talking about babes in the woods. These are 17 and 18 year old basically adults who were perfectly happy to take these spots away from kids who actually earned them.
The only possible scenario where the kid wouldn't know would be the parents bribing test scorers to change the answers.
cannabis_flower
(3,764 posts)There was at least a couple of test administrators on the list. I heard that some of the students had taken the test and someone went in behind and changed their answers. In that case, the student might not have known the scores weren't real. In this case, I think the student should be allowed to stay as long as they made satisfactory grades.
The ones that had someone else take the test for them or who said they were athletes and they weren't. They knew and they should be expelled. In fact, I think they should be prosecuted along with their parents.
MissB
(15,800 posts)I do actually fee quite bad for any of the kids that didnt know. But the universities cannot reward this behavior, otherwise some parents will still feel it is worth the risk. The penalty has to be complete.
And its all on the parents. They really screwed up. Its tragic that some of the kids may actually have been unaware, but I find it more sad that qualified students were denied a spot. Imagine being that kid that worked their entire young life to become really good at a sport they were passionate about, only to lose out to some kid of a rich parent that used photoshop to show their kids fake abilities. Getting a good score on the SAT is not easy; having it done for you is a disservice to what college is suppose to be all about.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Got scholarships for sports they didnt play. In some cases, the academics were in the neighborhood of what they needed to be, and it was just a matter of a coach evaluating the athlete as being better than they were at some sport. Are you suggesting that those students must have known, or must be academic frauds, or do you think that this should be evaluated on a case by case basis like I do?
MissB
(15,800 posts)My kids are still in college (and we didnt have to bribe anyone to get them in to their respective colleges) so Ive had a bit of recent experience in how college applications happen.
I actually can imagine a scenario where a kid wouldnt know. SAT score results arent mailed anymore, and havent been since at least my kids were in middle school and sat for their first SAT. You sign up for an ID/account and then all your test results are available for viewing on that account. Itd be relatively easy to set up an account for a student.
Similarly, applications are electronically submitted. Any one can submit that on behalf of someone else; Im guessing that may have been/is part of the service for really wealthy folks that are used to having staff do mundane tasks for them.
I never saw my kids college applications or essays. They told me where they were applying but I didnt get to proof read a darned thing. All of my kids acceptances were electronic too- either through email or by signing on to a university portal. Scholarship and housing info was about the only stuff that came thru the mail.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)that they did not get their grades on their own? Did they buy their term papers, tests, pay someone to do their homework? having gone through the application process with 3 kids, there is no way those kids did not know there was something amiss.
Many got extra time to take the SAT by claiming they had a learning disability. The kids knew they did not have a learning disability and participated in the scam. This special testing enabled the paid off proctor to change their answers for a better score that qualified for admission. In some cases students had someone else take the SAT for them. A kid knows if they took the SAT or not.
All of my kids had a score that was within reason of their GPA and grades. if they scored abnormally high, they would have known. They also would have known if they played tennis or not.
This was theft. they stole a spot for a kid that worked towards acceptance and didn't. They stole that kids future.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Are you suggesting that these students (the ones who graduated) should ALL be stripped of their degrees because even though we dont know if they cheated on their grades, their parents broke the law to get them in that school in the first place? If they went on to a post-graduate degree, do they lose that too?
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)Any one's kids would know if they were on a sports team, had a learning disability, scored abnormally high on a SAT or ACT test, or took it at all. So yes, they absolutely knew.
They willingly went along with the fraud. What else were they willing to do once in the school to perpetuate it? The get away driver gets charged in a crime even if they had no foreknowledge of the crime. So yes. they should. If they want, they can go back to college and earn an honest degree.
How do you feel about the kids who were #1 on the wait list? You know, the kids who didn't get in and had their futures altered because of it?
hughee99
(16,113 posts)That school to say the student was a better prospect at a sport they actually played then they really were. No fake test scores or made up activities were used.
In that situation, should a student be stripped of a degree because their parents bribed a coach to say their child was a sports prospect? The child certainly may not have known in that case.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)as an extra curricular activity, but the kid did not know that was a lie?
hughee99
(16,113 posts)The coach made that out that the student was better than they really were. There are plenty of kids that are stand-out athletes in high school but still wouldnt get any interest from these sort of schools for athletics.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)the kids faces on photos of athletes.
"I was bribing coaches for a spot. And that occurred very frequently, your honor," Singer said in federal court.
The case of Lori Loughlin, who played Aunt Becky on "Full House," illuminates this aspect of the alleged scheme.
<snip>
The couple allegedly agreed to pay bribes totaling $500,000 in exchange for having their two daughters designated as recruits to the University of Southern California crew team.
The daughters were recruited as coxswains even though they did not row competitively or otherwise participate in crew, the complaint says. The parents sent Singer photos of each of their daughters on an ergometer, the rowing machine, the complaint states.
Singer then facilitated bribes to Donna Heinel, the senior associate athletic director at USC, who got the students into USC as recruited athletes, according to the complaint.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme-how-it-worked/index.html
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Philip Esformes is a Florida business executive facing numerous federal charges of Medicare fraud related to the nursing homes and assisted-living centers he has owned. In July, he was charged with bribing a basketball coach at the University of Pennsylvania to help get Esformes's son admitted to Penn. The indictment said that Esformes paid $74,000 in cash. While the son did play basketball in high school and was admitted to Penn, he never played on the team there. The coach is Jerome Allen, who led the Penn program for six years and is now an assistant coach of the Boston Celtics. A Penn spokesman said Tuesday that a university investigation into the allegations is ongoing.
Coach gets bribed to push the kid as a prospect, the kid doesnt make the team in college, but that does get him in the door to the school.
mercuryblues
(14,491 posts)that led to this case.
So you have a kid who went to a small, (less than 600 students K-12) private religious school,think he was being considered for one of the most elite college teams.
Claims can't be made that these kids were smart enough to get into these colleges on their own merits but too dumb to figure out something was amiss.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)The schools we played were roughly the same size. From our league weve had a number of kids go to big time D-1 schools for athletics and some have seen significant playing time. Weve even had a number of professional players, though mostly minor leagues. Our schools are slightly bigger than this (my whole school system had roughly 1000 kids when I graduated), but its not automatic that those kids didnt deserve those opportunities.
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)You dont get to keep the money even if you werent in on the crime. You also dont get to keep all the shit you might have bought with that money.
This is fraud and theft. And it sucks for the kids who didnt know. But they shouldnt get to reap the rewards anyway (what kid with actual character would want to?) and its important to set an example that will deter other parents and kids from trying this in the future.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Of parents who did not immigrate legally?
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)They're given a path to citizenship that they can earn. For example, they can't have a criminal record and have to prove that they are contributing members of society (e.g. by being enrolled in college or serving in the military).
And the same thing should happen here. The kids should be expelled. If they didn't know they should be allowed to reapply to the same school. Otherwise, not.
If they already have a degree it should be taken away but they still have an opportunity to earn another one - perhaps by keeping some of their credits but having to reapply and take some additional courses or tests to prove that they earned it.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Of people who did not come to this country in an illegal manner (parents who are just now trying to legally immigrate and maybe have been for years) I thought you didnt think it was okay for children to benefit from a parents illegal activities.
Personally, I dont think you should take their degree away unless you can show that they didnt do the class work necessary to earn the credits, or that they were personally involved in fraud on the applications.
And what do you do if they are working on, or have earned, a post-graduate degree based on the degree you want to take away?
Sometimes you cant just put the toothpaste back in the tube.
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)but as you say sometimes policies have to be pragmatic. That doesn't mean looking the other way though or removing any deterrent. Or do you think it's fine for kids to receive stolen goods as long as they don't know they're stolen?
I'd also note that the severity of the consequences needs to be factored in. A kid whose parents could afford a $500,000 bribe to get them into college isn't going to end up on the street because they were expelled and had to reapply. Or, *gasp* had to finish their degree at a state school instead. Even if they never finish college, it's a good bet that they're going to land on their feet somewhere.
A kid whose parents entered the country illegally should not, as a moral imperative, be split up from their family and packed off to some other country where they potentially don't know a soul and may not speak the language and where their future could be irrevocably damaged because of a crime that they didn't have an ability to consent to their participation in.
That's fundamentally different to the consequences that these kids face because of their parents cheating and I think that's were the analogy falls over.
DREAMers should be given a path to earn citizenship (because the alternative is a moral abomination) and these kids should be given a path to either re-earn admissions or re-earn their degree (because the alternative is sort of unfair to them). If they already have a degree and have moved on to post-grad work, the degree should be rescinded and the kids can work with their post-grad programme on some way to re-earn the lower degree at the same time as the higher one. If they've already proven that they legitimately deserve the spot, most programmes would probably be accommodating.
There's no way, practically, to confirm retrospectively that the kids didn't cheat in their college classes. The university doesn't keep records of their work. So they should have to prove that they earned the degree by taking some additional classes or writing a thesis or passing standardised exams in their field.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)You cant steal an education. If you could, that would make this a lot easier. You could take it from one person, give it to someone else, and call it done. Educations have to be earned, what was stolen was the opportunity to earn one, and in the case Im talking about, the child may not have even known. The opportunity is gone forever. The people on the wait list have moved on with their lives. By all means, punish the parents, and if the student was complicit (fake scores or lying on the application) punish them too. There is your deterrent.
I dont believe in punishing people if you dont even know if they did anything wrong. Lets be honest, taking a diploma away from a student is nothing other than punishment. It doesnt undo an injustice, the person on the waiting list doesnt get it instead. I also dont believe that we should decide who does and does not deserve punishment based on their identity rather than their crime.
As far as saying theres no way to know if they actually did the work, I dont get that leap at all unless you are looking to further punish, specifically, the student. The student would have gone through 4 years of classes, tests, presentations, projects, etc... if the faculty has no idea if any of the students work is genuine, then why couldnt you make the same argument for any student at all? Eddies parents bribed a coach to say he a decent sports recruit, how do we know his work was his own? Teddys parents donated a building to the school, we have no reason to question his integrity.
Its interesting that at the beginning, you were very rigid in your belief that crime shouldnt be rewarded, while I was willing to look at things on a situational basis. I had a feeling after mentioning DACA, your position on that was going to soften.
meadowlander
(4,358 posts)I said from the beginning if they didn't know, they should be provided with a pathway to make things whole again. And that's what I'm still saying.
But from a practical standpoint, it's very hard to prove whether they knew or didn't know. And therefore almost impossible to say whether they went on the cheat again in their classes.
If I was in that situation, I would welcome the opportunity to prove that I did actually earn my degree fair and square. Having to sit a test or provide some extra work isn't actually that big of an imposition considering that the student also benefits in terms of clearing their reputation and reasserting the value of their degree.
And I maintain that DACA is a really weak analogy. The reason an exception was made for those kids was because the alternative was genuinely unthinkable and would ruin their lives. That's not the case for these kids who, at worst, would be slightly inconvenienced.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Assessment of what they should know shouldnt be a big deal. My issue is that if they went 4 years (or maybe more) without professors questioning their integrity, is it right to question it now? And if so, why only THESE students? Their parents may have committed fraud, should you test any students whose parents committed any fraud? They may not have gotten into the school based on their own merits, should you test any student who may not have gotten in on their own merits (legacy students, big donor children, celebrities) just to make sure they also did their own work? If the kids are off working somewhere or in grad school, do you make them come back to test or threaten to revoke their degree, based on the idea that they could possibly have cheated, without any actual evidence of it?
As for the DACA comparison, the reason I think it was an effective analogy was because you seemed very black and white on whether people should benefit from illegal activity, and after I brought up a clearly more sympathetic situation, you seemed to move to more of a gray area. I get it, and I agree that its much easier justify DACA, but again, I dont believe in punishing someone for actions that are out of their control. I dont think if you dont have evidence that the student, personally, lied or cheated, you should punish them just in case. And in the end, if you argue that a student can cheat their way to a 4 year degree at a big time university and no one will catch him, youve got a much, MUCH bigger integrity problem than a few dozen parents who cheated the admissions system.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Higher stakes than the SAT or ACT - and when they are typically 7-8 years older than these kids
It is more frequently the ones at the top of the class who underestimate their abilities. Those on the lower end don't have the ability to accurately estimate their own abilities and - by and large - they believe they are hitting all of the marks and are shocked when their scores come out as low as they do. The same deficiencies that keep them at the bottom of the heap also prevent them from accurately assessing their skill level.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Sometimes things seem unfair and those who didn't know what was happening got pulled into an unfortunate situation. They need to take up their losses with whomever was resposible for putting them in that situation. It's not up to the school to judge blame, just compliance.
Response to defacto7 (Reply #28)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)I really don't see a good comparison with these students who benefited from fraud.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #114)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Sure, their resident status is a mess and they could get kicked out.
But as Dreamers in college, they have declared their status accurately and sometimes pay out of state tuition even though they graduated from in-state high schools.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #121)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)kcr
(15,300 posts)Huh, who knew?
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Apples and oranges, no comparison.
Response to defacto7 (Reply #124)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)It's like asking why blue isn't three.
Response to defacto7 (Reply #131)
Post removed
defacto7
(13,485 posts)You're just reaching for a conclusion that has no validity.
If you want to create a logical fallacy trap I don't need to go there. If you really, truly don't know the difference I can't help you. In your own mind you exonerate yourself by stating you were not disappointed as a diversion. If such a diversion makes you happy, have fun.
Response to defacto7 (Reply #144)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)The discussion here has nothing to do with dreamers. There is no connection between these two situations. Both have their own places. The subject of Dreamers is even off topic as far as I'm concerned.
If you want to take a final stab at this, feel free. I won't comment further. The floor is yours.
Response to defacto7 (Reply #147)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)to think about their privilege and future.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #30)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Response to Hoyt (Reply #156)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Politics...what do you want to discuss...something else I can show you wrong about.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)No point in punishing them.
Response to Loki Liesmith (Reply #32)
geralmar This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(25,911 posts)Most of the kids are also victims -- very, very few knew about this. The complaint even has some of their parents mocking them -- this has to be, at best, embarrassing for them.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)
The point would not be to punish the students, per se, but to punish those who commit fraud to gain admissions.
The message would be clear, your students will still benefit from your fraud even if you are caught.
Yes, the students would be a heave consequence, but when adults commit crimes sometimes the punishment does include hardship on the entire family (like houses, cars, and other properties being seized).
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #97)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)But bringing a kid over the border for a better life for all and keeping families together is very different from rich families committing fraud to get into schools when they could easily go to other good schools (albeit not their preferred schools).
You see the difference, right?
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #174)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Chemisse
(30,793 posts)Hopefully they will show compassion toward those kids who did not know and who have tried their best since being enrolled.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)The parents did these things to ensure the student made it into a particular school. Letting them stay in the school sends the message that it worked even if caught.
The parents, like Huffman and Loughlin, will likely pay big fines and maybe just a little jail time, but if their children stay in it will have been worth it.
Its shame when innocent family members get hurt because others commit crimes, but it happens.
fleur-de-lisa
(14,616 posts)And they are depriving deserving applicants a chance to attend, students who should be their because they earned it.
Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #36)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
BlueSpot
(851 posts)If they want back in, they should go through the same application process they skipped the first time around.
Beyond that, I don't really expect 18 year olds to make the smartest life choices, especially if they were led down that path by their parents (who, to an 18 year old, should seem like reliable people). Forgive them for following bad adult guidance and let them back in if they qualify.
The adults who drove it all should be held accountable. I am not versed in law so I don't know what is appropriate. I don't know that they need to go to jail but they do seem to have plenty of money. Maybe pool it (matching what they paid or maybe that times whatever) to create a foundation that pays for the education of deserving kids.
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)Dont care if it isn't fair. Life isn't fair which is obvious from this scandal. These kids parents obviously have financial means. Thesm kids won't be destitute and can apply somewhere else on merit. And that may mean they have to retake SAT tests or redo admission applications.
Captain Stern
(2,197 posts)The kids wouldn't be getting punished. They'd simply be giving back something that they shouldn't have had in the first place.
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it would be kind of like if their parents had given them a stolen car for Christmas. When discovered, wouldn't the car be taken away, and returned to it's rightful owner?
zazfan
(31 posts)Make them all pay. Doesn't matter if they knew about it or not, it doesn't change the fact that they have unrightfully gotten what they don't merit. This shit has to stop.
Response to zazfan (Reply #49)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Vinca
(50,172 posts)well, maybe they should let them stay. It's a shitty spot their parents have gotten them into.
dlk
(11,438 posts)Allowing them to stay would be the same as letting them to keep stolen property. If these students were poor, would we even be asking this question?
obamanut2012
(25,911 posts)The FBI stated only a few kids knew -- teh ones that did can be booted. The rest did NOTHING wrong.
The sins of the parents is not a thing in the US, and the responses on this thread are shameful. Most of these kids are also victims. They did nothing wrong.
obamanut2012
(25,911 posts)If they are doing well legitimately, there is no reason they should also be punished.
Loughlin and Mossimo's two daughters knew, so they should get the boot.
Weirdly judgmental posts towards these kids on here. It isn't there fault.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Kind of a fruit of the poisonous tree thing.
To not expell the students is to ok false admission submissions by saying even if youre caught the student can remain.
The students can start over somewhere else.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #63)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
RobinA
(9,878 posts)We aren't talking about people who jumped the list for a heart transplant here. People have been getting into elite colleges by means other than merit since the first elite college was invented. What's next, yanking degrees from everybody who got in because they were a legacy? Their parents were high-powered and said pretty please? Someone donated a field house? A lab? They were the illegitimate son of George Washington? Bogus "community projects" on the application? SAT prep? Professional help writing the essay?
Surprise! Getting into an elite college often (usually) involves a lot more factors than merit. Start with whatever the definition of "merit" is at any given moment. It's a fact. Try to make the process more focused on integrity, but let's keep the focus on real problems. Or, here's a thought, let's be a little less impressed with where people went to school. I think we can all name people who really aren't that smart who went to elite schools. [cough, cough] And if you regularly work with people who went to elite schools, you probably already know from personal experience that the actual quality of the graduates is all over the map. Let's adjust perception to reality and move on.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Even a presidential admission exception due to a large donation is more transparent and legitimate than what happened in here.
To not expell the students is to ok false admission submissions by saying even if youre caught the student can remain.
The students can start over somewhere else.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #62)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)rusty fender
(3,428 posts)Many factors go into who gets accepted into a college, and colleges have various standards for aacceptance.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...and marched naked through the streets.
Im surprised our resident experts havent suggested that yet.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,283 posts)... after the hangovers are cleared and all participants bailed out, then what?
They might be expelled, but they'll have some cool new tattoos to enjoy.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,283 posts)... because they have parents who graduated from there? More qualified applicants were pushed aside to make room for "legacies". How many seats are semi-occupied by uninterested "students" who are there because they can kick a soccer ball? How many students were given a boost (or a roadblock) because of gender, race, country of birth, attributes that have little to do with prediction of academic success?
Stop the fraud, punish the perpetrators, and leave the kids in school to succeed or fail on their own.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)Most universities have things like race, ethnicity, legacy status, extracurricular activities, athleticism, musical ability, etc in the admissions process explicitly.
It's even within the rules at most universities for a president to make use his/her discretion for a presidential admission exception for any reason (like a big donation).
But fraud is different. To let them stay is to send the message to parents that fraud will benefit your student even if you're caught.
I get, I'm sympathetic to the hardship of being expelled, but I can't see a university tolerating fraud in the admission process.
DBoon
(22,288 posts)I would expect to be fired promptly
I've used recruiters who, without telling me, "stretched the truth" in resumes. I would always call out the recruiter in the interview and tell the interviewer what the truth is (and maybe suggest they don't work with that recruiter anymore)
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)When I was a freshman in college, I had an assistant coach talk to me about walking on to the football team, of course other suggestions were made about pulling strings for me when I told what I was setting up to study there. I had freshman required PE with two football recruits, one became a pretty good NFL player, I did ok in the running and throwing drills relative to them, the assistant coach was the class instructor. If I had fell for the sham and things blew up, then I should have been kicked out. But say my parents were rich and the coach was paid to approach me before I even left high school and I knew nothing about what was going on, if I took the offer and things blew up, I should have gotten a slap on the wrist for lack of questioning about what was going on, but otherwise be allowed to continue school as long as my grades met standards.
Coventina
(26,874 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)RandySF
(57,661 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)The college admittances were essentially ill-gotten gains.
They could reapply, see if they can get in by their own merits.
RandySF
(57,661 posts)There could be legal jeopardy
Demit
(11,238 posts)That's a separate question from whether they get to keep the benefit of their parents' crime.
If your parents had stolen a lot of money & then gave it to you, you wouldn't be able to keep it. Regardless of whether or not you knew where it came from.
Response to Demit (Reply #118)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Otherwise, I think equating the rescinding of a college acceptance to the deporting of young people to countries they never knew is a specious comparison. These wealthy and very privileged children have painless alternatives, don't they?
Paladin
(28,204 posts)Let those students derive any further benefit from the crooked means of their getting into school---regardless of their lack of personal culpability---and desperate and/or wealthy parents will continue the cheating.
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)I'm not sure if we had a crew team when I was at USC in the '80s. But if so I guarantee I angered the coaches with a flippant remark or several in the Daily Trojan.
It was remarkable how those coaches found reason to be paranoid about everything, like the track coach when I wrote that the long jump was a dirty event.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Response to Devil Child (Reply #117)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
elleng
(130,156 posts)Mike Nelson
(9,903 posts)...YES. Even if some are nice people and did not know... anything less would be absurd... Educators must set a good example.
Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #129)
Post removed
Mike Nelson
(9,903 posts)
I was answering about the recent news story... it involved William Rick Singer and very wealthy clients. There were a couple of actors involved, also. I assumed the OP question was about that news story.
Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #166)
AncientGeezer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Raven123
(4,716 posts)aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)MichMan
(11,790 posts)The punishment for cheating the system with bribery to get their kids in elite colleges can't be to pay a little more $$ while their kids still benefit from the whole scheme.
Turin_C3PO
(13,650 posts)Theyll be fine, they come from $$$.
Afromania
(2,767 posts)should both pay that back and be fined at least as much as it would have cost for a student that deserved the spot. We'll never know how much the cost opportunities were for hard working students screwed over by this.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Which Im sure many did, then yes either expell them or make them transfer to another school. The people who they bribed in the college must be dealt with as well. It wont take care of the legacy donations etc. But at least it will send a message that you cant cheat your way into a school by fraud.
liberal N proud
(60,302 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)real investigation into all the universities admission departments with indictments ready to be issued
SHRED
(28,136 posts)aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)mainer
(12,013 posts)Anyway you look at it, the kids are either clueless or complicit
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)Some should be re-evaluated.
Each of the students should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Blanket solutions are rarely a good idea in matters of justice and punishment
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)with a degree, who benefitted from this.
You just know it's been going on for a long time.
Yank their degrees?
samplegirl
(11,415 posts)helped fund this!!!!