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aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:24 PM Mar 2019

Should the students who benefited from deceit be expelled?


97 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Yes
78 (80%)
No
8 (8%)
Other
11 (11%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
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Should the students who benefited from deceit be expelled? (Original Post) aikoaiko Mar 2019 OP
Yes freepotter Mar 2019 #1
USC (Lori Lauglin) University Policy. TheBlackAdder Mar 2019 #57
If they knew? Yes. Otherwise no. Just MHO. Adrahil Mar 2019 #85
There's no way those kids didn't know mommy & daddy were sprinkling their college with wads of cash! TheBlackAdder Mar 2019 #90
Totally agree. Chin music Mar 2019 #103
"Mom, Dad... I had no idea I was accepted on USC's crew. What the fuck is a crew?" TheBlackAdder Mar 2019 #113
"Look it you little shit bird...Mom and Dad paid BIG BUCKS for you to get into Chin music Mar 2019 #115
Doesn't have something to do with wreaking. democratisphere Mar 2019 #187
Policy enid602 Mar 2019 #137
Wanda Austin is the interim USC president Zorro Mar 2019 #178
Yes caraher Mar 2019 #2
That screws Biden's run for POTUS right? AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #154
Does it? caraher Mar 2019 #169
He's got palgerism issues that have ruined 2 POTUS runs. AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #170
Then it was already a problem independent of this case caraher Mar 2019 #177
Depends, those who knew yes... those who didn't no 4139 Mar 2019 #3
C'mon, kids know if they were exceptional students or slackers. procon Mar 2019 #27
The few that didn't know, didn't do anything wrong. lostnfound Mar 2019 #29
How could they not know? Bad Thoughts Mar 2019 #31
Because they're fucking stupid. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2019 #60
lol. Joe941 Mar 2019 #82
Every student knows their grade points and SAT test scores. procon Mar 2019 #35
Rich kids go to private schools unitedwethrive Mar 2019 #41
That is not necessarily true about private schools Dream Girl Mar 2019 #159
Not if the proctor changed some of the answers FBaggins Mar 2019 #84
It wasn't a few -- the FBI stated almost none were aware obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #53
Doesn't matter... getagrip_already Mar 2019 #157
They had to have known mercuryblues Mar 2019 #181
Most of them would have known... meadowlander Mar 2019 #43
By and large, they did not get scholarship - Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #175
If they knew and acquiesced, yes. Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #4
Not if they didn't know about it beforehand... ADX Mar 2019 #5
A GPA of 3, And They Didn't Know? ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #14
Not necessarily... ADX Mar 2019 #18
They Should, Shouldn't They? ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #48
The reporting indicates that some of the kids did not know. FBaggins Mar 2019 #78
there is also the possibility that some of the kids were actually smart... Javaman Mar 2019 #87
According to the prosecutors, some kids did not know MaryMagdaline Mar 2019 #107
When my kids were accepted to their colleges FM123 Mar 2019 #6
i voted yes, assuming they knew about it Takket Mar 2019 #7
Their degree, if any should be revoked..they should have to test and apply - n/t asiliveandbreathe Mar 2019 #8
If they didn't know, let them finish the year and not be allowed back. AJT Mar 2019 #9
Well if their getting in was by deceit, it would seem they need to reapply Beringia Mar 2019 #10
Yes. In all cases they are taking the place of another student The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #11
Absolutely YES Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #92
Not sure how they compare? Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #95
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #100
I believe that your answer is provided in post 98 Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #109
It dreamer kids parents were as rich as these kids parents are, GulfCoast66 Mar 2019 #98
Your trolling is tedious DBoon Mar 2019 #139
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #143
Msybe he's learning his lesson because he's deleting all his posts. defacto7 Mar 2019 #190
Definitely Yes ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #93
Not Comparable ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #185
the daughters of Lori L had to know... they were admitted as fake members of a sports team Demovictory9 Mar 2019 #15
One of Lori L's daughters sounds like she didn't even want to be there in the first place crazycatlady Mar 2019 #68
This is amazing jberryhill Mar 2019 #71
Just what we need...another round of clueless Khardashian types. Chin music Mar 2019 #116
I ask because at first I was a Yes for expulsion if they knew, but now I'm just a yes. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #16
kick them out and make them re-apply DBoon Mar 2019 #17
Ditto! BigmanPigman Mar 2019 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #132
of course not, just to one who commit admissions fraud DBoon Mar 2019 #134
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #145
I'd be surprised if it isn't automatic. And no refunds. nt Hekate Mar 2019 #19
Did our "athletes" claim it on their applications? Bad Thoughts Mar 2019 #20
Of course. Codeine Mar 2019 #21
If they knew, yes happybird Mar 2019 #22
If they had no part in the fraud, they should be allowed to finish the semester LuvLoogie Mar 2019 #23
only if they willingly participated in these schemes. nt msongs Mar 2019 #24
If the students should never have been accepted... Lancero Mar 2019 #26
And the tuition refund would probably go to customerserviceguy Mar 2019 #33
there is no reason to refund tuition if the kids were going there JI7 Mar 2019 #34
If the student did the work to earn their degree, how do you hughee99 Mar 2019 #37
When the students filled out applications... Bad Thoughts Mar 2019 #39
Why is it almost impossible they didn't know? hughee99 Mar 2019 #40
The students themselved would have to report false info Bad Thoughts Mar 2019 #46
Not all of the applicants required cheating on tests hughee99 Mar 2019 #56
If they cheated to get into the school, meadowlander Mar 2019 #45
I did hear on NPR that happened. cannabis_flower Mar 2019 #58
I don't think the kids get to stay. MissB Mar 2019 #67
Not all of these students required fake scores, and not all of them hughee99 Mar 2019 #61
So much data is transmitted electronically nowadays MissB Mar 2019 #66
How can one be sure mercuryblues Mar 2019 #69
So are you assuming academic fraud and assuming they should have known? hughee99 Mar 2019 #70
As I said mercuryblues Mar 2019 #72
In some cases, all the parent bought was a coach from hughee99 Mar 2019 #77
So on the application the sport was listed mercuryblues Mar 2019 #79
No. The kid played the sport for school and listed it. hughee99 Mar 2019 #81
That's why they were photoshopping mercuryblues Mar 2019 #88
I see the cnn story did not have this part hughee99 Mar 2019 #89
I wonder if this is the case the FBI was working mercuryblues Mar 2019 #104
I went to public school in a rural area. Less than 400 kids in high school. hughee99 Mar 2019 #122
If your parents rob a bank and put the money in a trust fund for you meadowlander Mar 2019 #94
So are you not a fan of DACA and want to deport the children hughee99 Mar 2019 #96
Kids in DACA aren't given citizenship. meadowlander Mar 2019 #99
The kids in DACA have an advantage toward citizenship over the children hughee99 Mar 2019 #101
I don't think it's okay for them to benefit, meadowlander Mar 2019 #186
You keep saying stolen goods like they stole an education. hughee99 Mar 2019 #188
See post 43 meadowlander Mar 2019 #191
While I agree that for students that did the work, a fair hughee99 Mar 2019 #192
My job is largely working with young adults preparing for high stakes testing Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #179
Expelled defacto7 Mar 2019 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #108
BY definition, Dreamers are transparent about their status and working on legitimate means of access aikoaiko Mar 2019 #114
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #119
I thought we were talking about college admissions. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #123
My point is that Dreamers did not deceive college admissions processes. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #130
Did these kids? AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #138
Their parents paid six to seven figure bribes to get into the country? kcr Mar 2019 #182
No, not at all. Those are two completely different subjects. defacto7 Mar 2019 #124
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #126
You need to explain how you can ask the question. defacto7 Mar 2019 #131
Post removed Post removed Mar 2019 #136
Sorry. There's no double standard. defacto7 Mar 2019 #144
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #146
Ok... one more time... defacto7 Mar 2019 #147
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #148
I'd think the kids would want to withdraw and go elsewhere or take time off Hoyt Mar 2019 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #149
Old Geezer, go oil your gunz. Tell your buddies on the Discussionist, "Hoyt said Hi." Hoyt Mar 2019 #156
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #158
Must be in a bad mood today, OldGeezer. Got any comments on politics? Hoyt Mar 2019 #161
I can say I'm not "OldGeezer".....that's something else you got wrong AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #163
No Loki Liesmith Mar 2019 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author geralmar Mar 2019 #44
Agreed -- there is a lot of meanness in this thread obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #54
I have sympathy for the innocent students, but allowing them to stay delegitimizes admissions aikoaiko Mar 2019 #97
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #172
Its a different situation. I know you love this analogy. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #174
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #176
I agree. Fortunately, the colleges are deciding quietly, case-by-case, it seems. Chemisse Mar 2019 #164
That's good news Loki Liesmith Mar 2019 #165
I get the compassion for the kids, but its compassion for fraud, too. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #193
Yes, they are benefitting from fraud. fleur-de-lisa Mar 2019 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #125
Yes, but BlueSpot Mar 2019 #38
Yes. I have zero hesitation in that belief too. I don't care if they didn't know and I SweetieD Mar 2019 #42
Yes, regardless of whether the kids knew or not. Captain Stern Mar 2019 #47
Yes, no exceptions. zazfan Mar 2019 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #171
If the kid knew about it definitely yes. If the kid didn't know about it and is serious and doing Vinca Mar 2019 #50
Unfortunately, Yes dlk Mar 2019 #51
They didn't fraud anyone, their parents and other adults did obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #55
Almost none of the kids knew -- the sins of the fathers and mothers isn't a thing obamanut2012 Mar 2019 #52
It's not about punishing the students. It's about not tolerating fraud. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #141
Absolutely Not RobinA Mar 2019 #59
The issue isn't a lack of merit. The issue is fraud. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #62
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #120
Correct response Loki Liesmith Mar 2019 #65
Exactly rusty fender Mar 2019 #75
They should be stripped naked, tattooed... jberryhill Mar 2019 #64
Sounds like a fine party you have planned. But after the festivities, ... JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2019 #73
How many otherwise-undeserving students are at a university ... JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2019 #74
The issue isn't whether non-merit considerations were used, but was fraud involved. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #106
If I lied on a job application and was hired based on the lie DBoon Mar 2019 #76
If it is proven that they were unaware, no. If so, yes. Blue_true Mar 2019 #80
Yes, but they should not be made to pay any tuition back. n/t Coventina Mar 2019 #83
LOL Blue_Tires Mar 2019 #86
NO....Not if they weren't party to the deciet..Fraud. If they were...yes. AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #91
Are any of them accomplices? RandySF Mar 2019 #102
They got a benefit they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. Demit Mar 2019 #111
But any of them went into college at 18 knowing what happened RandySF Mar 2019 #112
Sure, but that's a matter for a DA, if there's enuf evidence to bring charges. Demit Mar 2019 #118
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #173
District Attorneys decide whom to prosecute, not you and I, so that's an odd question. Demit Mar 2019 #180
Expelling them is the only way to end the cheating. Paladin Mar 2019 #105
The USC students should be forced to transfer to UCLA Awsi Dooger Mar 2019 #110
Absolutely, expulsion is a natural consequence for fraud n/t Devil Child Mar 2019 #117
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #128
No, their parents should be! elleng Mar 2019 #127
BIG... Mike Nelson Mar 2019 #129
Post removed Post removed Mar 2019 #151
huh? Mike Nelson Mar 2019 #166
This message was self-deleted by its author AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #168
I'd rather make their parents pay the full ride for other displaced students Raven123 Mar 2019 #133
If only it were a just world. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #135
The parents are filthy rich MichMan Mar 2019 #160
Yes. Turin_C3PO Mar 2019 #140
No, but their grades should be audited. If they wer ein on any sort of scholarship the parents Afromania Mar 2019 #142
If they knew Meowmee Mar 2019 #150
No but, they will carry that scar with them throughout their career liberal N proud Mar 2019 #152
absolutely and any that who have a diploma/degree needs it rescinded ASAP and a beachbum bob Mar 2019 #153
They signed the paperwork didn't they? SHRED Mar 2019 #155
Presumably. aikoaiko Mar 2019 #162
If they didn't know, they're too dumb to be there mainer Mar 2019 #167
Some should. Some shouldn't fescuerescue Mar 2019 #183
I wondering about students who have already graduated fescuerescue Mar 2019 #184
Yes the taxpayers samplegirl Mar 2019 #189

TheBlackAdder

(28,076 posts)
57. USC (Lori Lauglin) University Policy.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:30 AM
Mar 2019

.

11. Behavior Violating University Standards and Appropriate Sanctions General principles of academic integrity include and incorporate the concept of respect for the intellectual property of others, the expectation that individual work will be submitted unless otherwise allowed by an instructor, and the obligations both to protect one’s own academic work from misuse by others as well as to avoid using another’s work as one’s own. All students are expected to understand and abide by these principles. Faculty members may include additional classroom and assignment policies, as articulated on their syllabus.The Student Conduct Code articulates violations that are most common and readily identifiable. Conduct violating university community standards that is not specifically mentioned may still be subject to disciplinary action. Where conduct under any provision of this Code involves student sexual, interpersonal, or protected class misconduct, a separate policy applies.The following are examples of violations of these and other university standards.

11.17 Falsification, alteration or misrepresentation of official or unofficial records or documents including but not limited to academic transcripts, academic documentation, letters of recommendation, and admissions applications or related documents.

11.21 Any act that gains or is intended to gain an unfair academic advantage may be considered an act of academic dishonesty.




https://policy.usc.edu/files/2018/07/SCampus-2018-19.pdf

.

TheBlackAdder

(28,076 posts)
90. There's no way those kids didn't know mommy & daddy were sprinkling their college with wads of cash!
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:54 PM
Mar 2019

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
115. "Look it you little shit bird...Mom and Dad paid BIG BUCKS for you to get into
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:18 PM
Mar 2019

school, so....GET YOUR FANNY PERPENDICULAR and get to class."

enid602

(8,524 posts)
137. Policy
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:46 PM
Mar 2019

You forgot section 12 of the USC admissions policy, namely ‘if it’s still warm it’s welcome.’

Zorro

(15,691 posts)
178. Wanda Austin is the interim USC president
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:43 PM
Mar 2019

She has an impeccable reputation for integrity as the former president of the Aerospace Corporation.

I think Ms. Laughlin will be shown the door.

caraher

(6,276 posts)
2. Yes
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:28 PM
Mar 2019

At one school where I taught a student had admission revoked when, at some point over the summer following admission, the school discovered plagiarism in an application essay for an honors program. It would be very hard to trust that the work they turn in would be their own if they participated (at a parent's direction or not) in an effort to misrepresent themselves in admissions.

caraher

(6,276 posts)
169. Does it?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:36 PM
Mar 2019

You're alluding to something I am unaware of. Also, my view on this is independent on its impact on any single politician, whether it's someone I support or not.

4139

(1,893 posts)
3. Depends, those who knew yes... those who didn't no
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:30 PM
Mar 2019

But if they stay at the school it would be socially real hard

procon

(15,805 posts)
27. C'mon, kids know if they were exceptional students or slackers.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:14 PM
Mar 2019

They know. These kids might be suffering from Influenza, but they know money got them into a top notch school, not their crappy academic record. They might not know the details, but they have some inkling that someone, someplace, was manipulating the levers of power to finagle a spot for them a prestigious university. They know they didn't work for it and they don't deserve the opportunity, and will probably not do any better at a university than they did in high school.

Why should they have squatters rights simply because their families are wealthy enough to buy them an acceptance letter when there are kids with brilliant academic records who got the door slammed in their faces because their parents weren't rich enough to bribe the right officials.

lostnfound

(16,139 posts)
29. The few that didn't know, didn't do anything wrong.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:26 PM
Mar 2019

If they flunk out, fine. If they quit from embarassment, fine.

Bad Thoughts

(2,514 posts)
31. How could they not know?
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:33 PM
Mar 2019

Did they enter fake dates and scores for SATs or ACTs on applications?

Did they talk about athleticism on applications?

procon

(15,805 posts)
35. Every student knows their grade points and SAT test scores.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:59 PM
Mar 2019

These aren't dewy eyed Pollyannas fresh from the turnip truck, they know is needed to get into a good school. It's a ridiculous assumption to say that any kids are clueless about how they suddenly earned a place at a prestigious school despite their D- academic records. Maybe they are stupid, or so stoned they couldn't care less about getting an education. More than likely they know that Mommy will grease the wheels and take care of everything just as she usually does.

They know.

unitedwethrive

(1,997 posts)
41. Rich kids go to private schools
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:44 AM
Mar 2019

Private schools inflate grades, since they are being paid lots of money to get their graduates into good colleges. Likely that all the kids in question had decent GPA's but because they coasted through school, never learned what they needed to succeed on standardized tests. So many kids think that their SAT scores are much more due to luck than they actually are.

 

Dream Girl

(5,111 posts)
159. That is not necessarily true about private schools
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:37 PM
Mar 2019

Some are extremely rigorous with highly demanding college level curriculums

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
84. Not if the proctor changed some of the answers
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:14 PM
Mar 2019

Also - I doubt that most of these are D- students faking A+ records.

I'm not familiar with all of the schools involved, but I know that you can have awfully close to a 4.0 and 1300 SAT scores and still not get in to Wake Forest.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
53. It wasn't a few -- the FBI stated almost none were aware
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:24 AM
Mar 2019

Loughlin and Mossimo's girls knew, and a couple others, that's it.

getagrip_already

(14,250 posts)
157. Doesn't matter...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:28 PM
Mar 2019

It's fruit from the poisoned tree. They can't be allowed to benefit from a crime meant to enrich them.

Dismiss them, revoke their diplomas. Let the apply somewhere else.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
181. They had to have known
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:13 PM
Mar 2019

there was something hinky going on. The process is too involved for the kids not to have known. It's worse than doing taxes.

Any thoughts on the #1 kid on the wait list who had their spot stolen from them?

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
43. Most of them would have known...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:04 AM
Mar 2019

where did they think their test scores came from? The SAT fairy?

And it's not like you would get into college on a rowing crew scholarship without ever setting foot in a boat and then just turn up to the first day and say WTF.

This is as much about the kids (who are legally adults) cheating as the parents.

Even if they didn't know, they didn't earn the spot and should have to reapply on their merits. The kids who did know should be straight up expelled and not allowed to reapply.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
175. By and large, they did not get scholarship -
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:39 PM
Mar 2019

Their applications were just held to a lower standard because the admissions team was told they were athletic recruits.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
4. If they knew and acquiesced, yes.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:33 PM
Mar 2019

It is a harder question for the many students who apparently did not know.

I would be inclined to re-evaluate their application without parental influence and let them stay if it appears they would have been admitted anyway. If their application depended on the expectation that they would engage in a certain sports activity - I'd give them the option: participate in it or transfer. Same thing with any performance-based expectation.

 

ADX

(1,622 posts)
5. Not if they didn't know about it beforehand...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:36 PM
Mar 2019

...and they're maintaining at least a 3.00 GPA without any disciplinary or ethical infractions...

ProfessorGAC

(64,427 posts)
48. They Should, Shouldn't They?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:03 AM
Mar 2019

They're the folks headed to school!
Obliviousness is not a good trait for a college student.

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
78. The reporting indicates that some of the kids did not know.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:47 AM
Mar 2019

It's true that they should know their test scores, GPA, etc. and should be aware of the application that they're supposed to fill out themselves.

However, they wouldn't know that some coach put them on the recruit list for the crew team... or if a bribed proctor changed answers for them on a test.

I think that the school should do a quick review of the original application for those students to evaluate whether the student could have gotten in... combined with a review of their success while at the school. If they didn't know and there's reason to believe that they can be successful at the school... I'd let them stay.

But a reevaluation of any merit-based scholarships is also warranted.

Javaman

(62,444 posts)
87. there is also the possibility that some of the kids were actually smart...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:25 PM
Mar 2019

but didn't cut the mustard to get in on their own merits.

the parents worked it to get their kids that extra "something" to get in. And the kids were happy and thought they made it on their own.

but then, of course, there are the "dumber than a bag of rocks" kids that should at least be, "well how the hell did I get in? I didn't even pass recess" and realized that something was up, but then again...

MaryMagdaline

(6,849 posts)
107. According to the prosecutors, some kids did not know
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:43 PM
Mar 2019

One kid did not understand why the college guidance counselor said he got in through sports. It was in his record. He said no, never did sports.

One mother said if her kid did not make a 35 she was going to keep studying and take it again! Mother and crooked prompter were freaked out that she doesn’t know he’s changing her answers and she thinks she should keep studying. That girl’s sister told her parents not to tell the younger sister what was up.

Kids probably knew mom and dad pulled strings, but there are so many legal strings ... calling someone who is a trustee, getting a letter from someone , contributing to school ... they know they are privileged but not necessarily cons.

But yes, bring them all before honor counsel. Give them their due process and see who gets to stay.

FM123

(10,050 posts)
6. When my kids were accepted to their colleges
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:37 PM
Mar 2019

they were told that one false move, and those acceptances could be rescinded!
They couldn't let their grades drop, couldn't get in trouble, etc etc so I am thinking that having parents pull money strings should be reason enough for rescinding those acceptances and expelling those kids.

Takket

(21,425 posts)
7. i voted yes, assuming they knew about it
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:38 PM
Mar 2019

hard to believe the cases with the "fake sports recruiting" could have gone down without the kid knowing.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
11. Yes. In all cases they are taking the place of another student
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:48 PM
Mar 2019

Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:30 PM - Edit history (1)

who actually qualified to be at that school. If they knew or participated they should be expelled; if they didn't they should be offered a place at another school for which they would have qualified, and given the opportunity to quietly transfer. It would be too humiliating for them to stay at the original school even if it wasn't their fault they got in. The parents have really screwed up these kids' lives.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
12. Absolutely YES
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:50 PM
Mar 2019

Whether they knew or not, they were admitted under false pretenses and got a slot that someone else may have gotten. They should be shown the door and sent packing.

Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #12)

Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #95)

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
98. It dreamer kids parents were as rich as these kids parents are,
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:01 PM
Mar 2019

There would be no Dreamer kids. Being kicked out and having to go to a less prestigious college won’t kill them and might actually help them in th long run.

Let them stay and their parents win.

DBoon

(22,288 posts)
139. Your trolling is tedious
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:46 PM
Mar 2019

You have tried to hijack this thread to spread right wing nonsense

Your posts serve no useful purpose

Response to DBoon (Reply #139)

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
190. Msybe he's learning his lesson because he's deleting all his posts.
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:36 AM
Mar 2019

Or he's just doing a hit and run. Bizarre.

ProfessorGAC

(64,427 posts)
13. Definitely Yes
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:50 PM
Mar 2019

Smart enough for college, smart enough to figure out what was going on!
These "kids" were complicit!

Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #13)

Demovictory9

(32,324 posts)
15. the daughters of Lori L had to know... they were admitted as fake members of a sports team
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:53 PM
Mar 2019

they were admitted as member of the crew. You can't keep that secret from the kids.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
68. One of Lori L's daughters sounds like she didn't even want to be there in the first place
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:15 AM
Mar 2019

Jezebel and Buzzfeed both did a piece on her-- Olivia Jade (as she's known on social media). She wants to be a social media influencer and didn't take class seriously while at college-- it was more for the Instagram backgrounds.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
16. I ask because at first I was a Yes for expulsion if they knew, but now I'm just a yes.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:53 PM
Mar 2019

The message from universities has to be that if you go to these fraudulent extremes then your adult child will be expelled. Otherwise, there is still incentive to do it.

The message from these universities has to protect the admissions process.



DBoon

(22,288 posts)
17. kick them out and make them re-apply
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:54 PM
Mar 2019

under a pseudonym.

Go through the whole admission process all over.

Response to DBoon (Reply #17)

DBoon

(22,288 posts)
134. of course not, just to one who commit admissions fraud
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:41 PM
Mar 2019

Dreamers has nothing to do with this thread?

Why did you even make that comment?

Response to DBoon (Reply #134)

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
21. Of course.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:59 PM
Mar 2019

There’s no way they weren’t aware, and I don’t give two fucks about some spoiled-ass rich kid anyway.

happybird

(4,516 posts)
22. If they knew, yes
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:02 PM
Mar 2019

All of the articles I've read say the majority of the students were unaware of their parents' actions.

LuvLoogie

(6,855 posts)
23. If they had no part in the fraud, they should be allowed to finish the semester
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:03 PM
Mar 2019

And then be required to reapply.

Lancero

(2,984 posts)
26. If the students should never have been accepted...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:13 PM
Mar 2019

Then they should be stripped of what ever degrees they earned, and if they're still in school they should be removed with any credits earned invalidated.

That said though, if the school accepted students in violation of their acceptance policy then the school has no right to any paid tuition money which should be refunded, while any bribes should be seized as evidence against their parents.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
33. And the tuition refund would probably go to
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:36 PM
Mar 2019

the parent who paid the original bribe. Perhaps the amount of dirty money used to pay tuition for these students should go into a fund for emergency help for legitimate students at each of the affected schools.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
37. If the student did the work to earn their degree, how do you
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:59 PM
Mar 2019

“Strip” the students of that degree? I don’t think anyone is alleging that their parents bribed the school for passing grades, just for admittance, which the students themselves may or may not have been aware of.

Bad Thoughts

(2,514 posts)
39. When the students filled out applications...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:20 AM
Mar 2019

they would have to include fallacious information. It is almost impossible that they did not know.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
40. Why is it almost impossible they didn't know?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:16 AM
Mar 2019

There are lots of smart, well qualified students who apply to these schools and don’t get accepted. If the student was smart enough to graduate, they were probably smart enough to at least be in contention for a spot at the school. The kids who weren’t smart enough to be there in the first place likely didn’t get a degree. Do you think the parents bragged to them that they bought their way in?

Bad Thoughts

(2,514 posts)
46. The students themselved would have to report false info
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:16 AM
Mar 2019

... on the Common Application: test dates and scores and extracurricular activities.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
56. Not all of the applicants required cheating on tests
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:30 AM
Mar 2019

Or lying about extracurricular activities. In some cases it was just a matter of a coaches assessment of how good they were at some sport. The more they paid, the more egregious violations you’ll probably find, though.

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
45. If they cheated to get into the school,
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:38 AM
Mar 2019

what makes you think they didn't cheat their way through it? I used to teach at a university and I busted kids for plagiarism all the time.

And as I said above, most of these kids would have known. If you don't sit your SATs and then get something in the mail saying you got a 1400 - that's not going to raise alarm bells?

Ditto all the kids who didn't play sports but got in on sports scholarships.

We're not talking about babes in the woods. These are 17 and 18 year old basically adults who were perfectly happy to take these spots away from kids who actually earned them.

The only possible scenario where the kid wouldn't know would be the parents bribing test scorers to change the answers.

cannabis_flower

(3,764 posts)
58. I did hear on NPR that happened.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:34 AM
Mar 2019

There was at least a couple of test administrators on the list. I heard that some of the students had taken the test and someone went in behind and changed their answers. In that case, the student might not have known the scores weren't real. In this case, I think the student should be allowed to stay as long as they made satisfactory grades.

The ones that had someone else take the test for them or who said they were athletes and they weren't. They knew and they should be expelled. In fact, I think they should be prosecuted along with their parents.

MissB

(15,800 posts)
67. I don't think the kids get to stay.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:32 AM
Mar 2019

I do actually fee quite bad for any of the kids that didn’t know. But the universities cannot reward this behavior, otherwise some parents will still feel it is worth the risk. The penalty has to be complete.

And it’s all on the parents. They really screwed up. It’s tragic that some of the kids may actually have been unaware, but I find it more sad that qualified students were denied a spot. Imagine being that kid that worked their entire young life to become really good at a sport they were passionate about, only to lose out to some kid of a rich parent that used photoshop to show their kid’s fake abilities. Getting a good score on the SAT is not easy; having it done for you is a disservice to what college is suppose to be all about.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
61. Not all of these students required fake scores, and not all of them
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:47 AM
Mar 2019

Got scholarships for sports they didn’t play. In some cases, the academics were in the neighborhood of what they needed to be, and it was just a matter of a coach evaluating the athlete as being better than they were at some sport. Are you suggesting that those students must have known, or must be academic frauds, or do you think that this should be evaluated on a case by case basis like I do?

MissB

(15,800 posts)
66. So much data is transmitted electronically nowadays
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:27 AM
Mar 2019

My kids are still in college (and we didn’t have to bribe anyone to get them in to their respective colleges) so I’ve had a bit of recent experience in how college applications happen.

I actually can imagine a scenario where a kid wouldn’t know. SAT score results aren’t mailed anymore, and haven’t been since at least my kids were in middle school and sat for their first SAT. You sign up for an ID/account and then all your test results are available for viewing on that account. It’d be relatively easy to set up an account for a student.

Similarly, applications are electronically submitted. Any one can submit that on behalf of someone else; I’m guessing that may have been/is part of the service for really wealthy folks that are used to having staff do mundane tasks for them.

I never saw my kids’ college applications or essays. They told me where they were applying but I didn’t get to proof read a darned thing. All of my kids’ acceptances were electronic too- either through email or by signing on to a university portal. Scholarship and housing info was about the only stuff that came thru the mail.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
69. How can one be sure
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:22 AM
Mar 2019

that they did not get their grades on their own? Did they buy their term papers, tests, pay someone to do their homework? having gone through the application process with 3 kids, there is no way those kids did not know there was something amiss.
Many got extra time to take the SAT by claiming they had a learning disability. The kids knew they did not have a learning disability and participated in the scam. This special testing enabled the paid off proctor to change their answers for a better score that qualified for admission. In some cases students had someone else take the SAT for them. A kid knows if they took the SAT or not.

All of my kids had a score that was within reason of their GPA and grades. if they scored abnormally high, they would have known. They also would have known if they played tennis or not.

This was theft. they stole a spot for a kid that worked towards acceptance and didn't. They stole that kids future.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
70. So are you assuming academic fraud and assuming they should have known?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:32 AM
Mar 2019

Are you suggesting that these students (the ones who graduated) should ALL be stripped of their degrees because even though we don’t know if they cheated on their grades, their parents broke the law to get them in that school in the first place? If they went on to a post-graduate degree, do they lose that too?

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
72. As I said
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:55 AM
Mar 2019

Any one's kids would know if they were on a sports team, had a learning disability, scored abnormally high on a SAT or ACT test, or took it at all. So yes, they absolutely knew.

They willingly went along with the fraud. What else were they willing to do once in the school to perpetuate it? The get away driver gets charged in a crime even if they had no foreknowledge of the crime. So yes. they should. If they want, they can go back to college and earn an honest degree.

How do you feel about the kids who were #1 on the wait list? You know, the kids who didn't get in and had their futures altered because of it?

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
77. In some cases, all the parent bought was a coach from
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:46 AM
Mar 2019

That school to say the student was a better prospect at a sport they actually played then they really were. No fake test scores or made up activities were used.

In that situation, should a student be stripped of a degree because their parents bribed a coach to say their child was a sports prospect? The child certainly may not have known in that case.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
79. So on the application the sport was listed
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:54 AM
Mar 2019

as an extra curricular activity, but the kid did not know that was a lie?

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
81. No. The kid played the sport for school and listed it.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:58 AM
Mar 2019

The coach made that out that the student was better than they really were. There are plenty of kids that are stand-out athletes in high school but still wouldn’t get any interest from these sort of schools for athletics.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
88. That's why they were photoshopping
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:35 PM
Mar 2019

the kids faces on photos of athletes.

Because of that, a second part of Singer's scheme was to bribe college coaches and athletics officials. In exchange, they would recommend to admissions officials that certain students be accepted, even if the student didn't play the sport and had false athletic credentials.
"I was bribing coaches for a spot. And that occurred very frequently, your honor," Singer said in federal court.
The case of Lori Loughlin, who played Aunt Becky on "Full House," illuminates this aspect of the alleged scheme.

<snip>

The couple allegedly agreed to pay bribes totaling $500,000 in exchange for having their two daughters designated as recruits to the University of Southern California crew team.
The daughters were recruited as coxswains even though they did not row competitively or otherwise participate in crew, the complaint says. The parents sent Singer photos of each of their daughters on an ergometer, the rowing machine, the complaint states.
Singer then facilitated bribes to Donna Heinel, the senior associate athletic director at USC, who got the students into USC as recruited athletes, according to the complaint.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme-how-it-worked/index.html

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
89. I see the cnn story did not have this part
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:41 PM
Mar 2019
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/03/13/dozens-indicted-alleged-massive-case-admissions-fraud

“Philip Esformes is a Florida business executive facing numerous federal charges of Medicare fraud related to the nursing homes and assisted-living centers he has owned. In July, he was charged with bribing a basketball coach at the University of Pennsylvania to help get Esformes's son admitted to Penn. The indictment said that Esformes paid $74,000 in cash. While the son did play basketball in high school and was admitted to Penn, he never played on the team there. The coach is Jerome Allen, who led the Penn program for six years and is now an assistant coach of the Boston Celtics. A Penn spokesman said Tuesday that a university investigation into the allegations is ongoing.”

Coach gets bribed to push the kid as a prospect, the kid doesn’t make the team in college, but that does get him in the door to the school.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
104. I wonder if this is the case the FBI was working
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:32 PM
Mar 2019

that led to this case.

So you have a kid who went to a small, (less than 600 students K-12) private religious school,think he was being considered for one of the most elite college teams.

Claims can't be made that these kids were smart enough to get into these colleges on their own merits but too dumb to figure out something was amiss.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
122. I went to public school in a rural area. Less than 400 kids in high school.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:23 PM
Mar 2019

The schools we played were roughly the same size. From our league we’ve had a number of kids go to big time D-1 schools for athletics and some have seen significant playing time. We’ve even had a number of professional players, though mostly minor leagues. Our schools are slightly bigger than this (my whole school system had roughly 1000 kids when I graduated), but it’s not automatic that those kids didn’t deserve those opportunities.

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
94. If your parents rob a bank and put the money in a trust fund for you
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:07 PM
Mar 2019

You don’t get to keep the money even if you weren’t in on the crime. You also don’t get to keep all the shit you might have bought with that money.

This is fraud and theft. And it sucks for the kids who didn’t know. But they shouldn’t get to reap the rewards anyway (what kid with actual character would want to?) and it’s important to set an example that will deter other parents and kids from trying this in the future.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
96. So are you not a fan of DACA and want to deport the children
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:47 PM
Mar 2019

Of parents who did not immigrate legally?

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
99. Kids in DACA aren't given citizenship.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:21 PM
Mar 2019

They're given a path to citizenship that they can earn. For example, they can't have a criminal record and have to prove that they are contributing members of society (e.g. by being enrolled in college or serving in the military).

And the same thing should happen here. The kids should be expelled. If they didn't know they should be allowed to reapply to the same school. Otherwise, not.

If they already have a degree it should be taken away but they still have an opportunity to earn another one - perhaps by keeping some of their credits but having to reapply and take some additional courses or tests to prove that they earned it.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
101. The kids in DACA have an advantage toward citizenship over the children
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:29 PM
Mar 2019

Of people who did not come to this country in an illegal manner (parents who are just now trying to legally immigrate and maybe have been for years) I thought you didn’t think it was okay for children to benefit from a parent’s illegal activities.

Personally, I don’t think you should take their degree away unless you can show that they didn’t do the class work necessary to earn the credits, or that they were personally involved in fraud on the applications.

And what do you do if they are working on, or have earned, a post-graduate degree based on the degree you want to take away?

Sometimes you can’t just put the toothpaste back in the tube.

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
186. I don't think it's okay for them to benefit,
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:23 AM
Mar 2019

but as you say sometimes policies have to be pragmatic. That doesn't mean looking the other way though or removing any deterrent. Or do you think it's fine for kids to receive stolen goods as long as they don't know they're stolen?

I'd also note that the severity of the consequences needs to be factored in. A kid whose parents could afford a $500,000 bribe to get them into college isn't going to end up on the street because they were expelled and had to reapply. Or, *gasp* had to finish their degree at a state school instead. Even if they never finish college, it's a good bet that they're going to land on their feet somewhere.

A kid whose parents entered the country illegally should not, as a moral imperative, be split up from their family and packed off to some other country where they potentially don't know a soul and may not speak the language and where their future could be irrevocably damaged because of a crime that they didn't have an ability to consent to their participation in.

That's fundamentally different to the consequences that these kids face because of their parents cheating and I think that's were the analogy falls over.

DREAMers should be given a path to earn citizenship (because the alternative is a moral abomination) and these kids should be given a path to either re-earn admissions or re-earn their degree (because the alternative is sort of unfair to them). If they already have a degree and have moved on to post-grad work, the degree should be rescinded and the kids can work with their post-grad programme on some way to re-earn the lower degree at the same time as the higher one. If they've already proven that they legitimately deserve the spot, most programmes would probably be accommodating.

There's no way, practically, to confirm retrospectively that the kids didn't cheat in their college classes. The university doesn't keep records of their work. So they should have to prove that they earned the degree by taking some additional classes or writing a thesis or passing standardised exams in their field.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
188. You keep saying stolen goods like they stole an education.
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 10:08 AM
Mar 2019

You can’t “steal” an education. If you could, that would make this a lot easier. You could take it from one person, give it to someone else, and call it done. Educations have to be earned, what was “stolen” was the opportunity to earn one, and in the case I’m talking about, the child may not have even known. The opportunity is gone forever. The people on the wait list have moved on with their lives. By all means, punish the parents, and if the student was complicit (fake scores or lying on the application) punish them too. There is your deterrent.

I don’t believe in punishing people if you don’t even know if they did anything wrong. Let’s be honest, taking a diploma away from a student is nothing other than punishment. It doesn’t undo an injustice, the person on the waiting list doesn’t get it instead. I also don’t believe that we should decide who does and does not deserve punishment based on their identity rather than their crime.

As far as saying there’s no way to know if they actually did the work, I don’t get that leap at all unless you are looking to further punish, specifically, the student. The student would have gone through 4 years of classes, tests, presentations, projects, etc... if the faculty has no idea if any of the student’s work is genuine, then why couldn’t you make the same argument for any student at all? Eddie’s parents bribed a coach to say he a decent sports recruit, how do we know his work was his own? Teddy’s parents donated a building to the school, we have no reason to question his integrity.

It’s interesting that at the beginning, you were very rigid in your belief that crime shouldn’t be rewarded, while I was willing to look at things on a situational basis. I had a feeling after mentioning DACA, your position on that was going to “soften”.

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
191. See post 43
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:12 PM
Mar 2019

I said from the beginning if they didn't know, they should be provided with a pathway to make things whole again. And that's what I'm still saying.

But from a practical standpoint, it's very hard to prove whether they knew or didn't know. And therefore almost impossible to say whether they went on the cheat again in their classes.

If I was in that situation, I would welcome the opportunity to prove that I did actually earn my degree fair and square. Having to sit a test or provide some extra work isn't actually that big of an imposition considering that the student also benefits in terms of clearing their reputation and reasserting the value of their degree.

And I maintain that DACA is a really weak analogy. The reason an exception was made for those kids was because the alternative was genuinely unthinkable and would ruin their lives. That's not the case for these kids who, at worst, would be slightly inconvenienced.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
192. While I agree that for students that did the work, a fair
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:34 PM
Mar 2019

Assessment of what they should know shouldn’t be a big deal. My issue is that if they went 4 years (or maybe more) without professors questioning their integrity, is it right to question it now? And if so, why only THESE students? Their parents may have committed fraud, should you test any students whose parents committed any fraud? They may not have gotten into the school based on their own merits, should you test any student who may not have gotten in on their own merits (legacy students, big donor children, celebrities) just to make sure they also did their own work? If the kids are off working somewhere or in grad school, do you make them come back to test or threaten to revoke their degree, based on the idea that they could possibly have cheated, without any actual evidence of it?

As for the DACA comparison, the reason I think it was an effective analogy was because you seemed very black and white on whether people should benefit from illegal activity, and after I brought up a clearly more sympathetic situation, you seemed to move to more of a gray area. I get it, and I agree that it’s much easier justify DACA, but again, I don’t believe in punishing someone for actions that are out of their control. I don’t think if you don’t have evidence that the student, personally, lied or cheated, you should punish them “just in case”. And in the end, if you argue that a student can cheat their way to a 4 year degree at a big time university and no one will catch him, you’ve got a much, MUCH bigger integrity problem than a few dozen parents who cheated the admissions system.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
179. My job is largely working with young adults preparing for high stakes testing
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:50 PM
Mar 2019

Higher stakes than the SAT or ACT - and when they are typically 7-8 years older than these kids

It is more frequently the ones at the top of the class who underestimate their abilities. Those on the lower end don't have the ability to accurately estimate their own abilities and - by and large - they believe they are hitting all of the marks and are shocked when their scores come out as low as they do. The same deficiencies that keep them at the bottom of the heap also prevent them from accurately assessing their skill level.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
28. Expelled
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:26 PM
Mar 2019

Sometimes things seem unfair and those who didn't know what was happening got pulled into an unfortunate situation. They need to take up their losses with whomever was resposible for putting them in that situation. It's not up to the school to judge blame, just compliance.

Response to defacto7 (Reply #28)

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
114. BY definition, Dreamers are transparent about their status and working on legitimate means of access
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:17 PM
Mar 2019

I really don't see a good comparison with these students who benefited from fraud.

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #114)

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
121. I thought we were talking about college admissions.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:21 PM
Mar 2019

Sure, their resident status is a mess and they could get kicked out.

But as Dreamers in college, they have declared their status accurately and sometimes pay out of state tuition even though they graduated from in-state high schools.

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #121)

Response to defacto7 (Reply #124)

Response to defacto7 (Reply #131)

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
144. Sorry. There's no double standard.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:59 PM
Mar 2019

You're just reaching for a conclusion that has no validity.

If you want to create a logical fallacy trap I don't need to go there. If you really, truly don't know the difference I can't help you. In your own mind you exonerate yourself by stating you were not disappointed as a diversion. If such a diversion makes you happy, have fun.

Response to defacto7 (Reply #144)

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
147. Ok... one more time...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:13 PM
Mar 2019

The discussion here has nothing to do with dreamers. There is no connection between these two situations. Both have their own places. The subject of Dreamers is even off topic as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to take a final stab at this, feel free. I won't comment further. The floor is yours.

Response to defacto7 (Reply #147)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
30. I'd think the kids would want to withdraw and go elsewhere or take time off
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:28 PM
Mar 2019

to think about their privilege and future.

Response to Hoyt (Reply #30)

Response to Hoyt (Reply #156)

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
163. I can say I'm not "OldGeezer".....that's something else you got wrong
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:48 PM
Mar 2019

Politics...what do you want to discuss...something else I can show you wrong about.

Response to Loki Liesmith (Reply #32)

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
54. Agreed -- there is a lot of meanness in this thread
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:26 AM
Mar 2019

Most of the kids are also victims -- very, very few knew about this. The complaint even has some of their parents mocking them -- this has to be, at best, embarrassing for them.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
97. I have sympathy for the innocent students, but allowing them to stay delegitimizes admissions
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:56 PM
Mar 2019

Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

The point would not be to punish the students, per se, but to punish those who commit fraud to gain admissions.

The message would be clear, your students will still benefit from your fraud even if you are caught.

Yes, the students would be a heave consequence, but when adults commit crimes sometimes the punishment does include hardship on the entire family (like houses, cars, and other properties being seized).

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #97)

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
174. Its a different situation. I know you love this analogy.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:31 PM
Mar 2019

But bringing a kid over the border for a better life for all and keeping families together is very different from rich families committing fraud to get into schools when they could easily go to other good schools (albeit not their preferred schools).

You see the difference, right?

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #174)

Chemisse

(30,793 posts)
164. I agree. Fortunately, the colleges are deciding quietly, case-by-case, it seems.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:58 PM
Mar 2019

Hopefully they will show compassion toward those kids who did not know and who have tried their best since being enrolled.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
193. I get the compassion for the kids, but its compassion for fraud, too.
Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:31 PM
Mar 2019

The parents did these things to ensure the student made it into a particular school. Letting them stay in the school sends the message that it worked even if caught.

The parents, like Huffman and Loughlin, will likely pay big fines and maybe just a little jail time, but if their children stay in it will have been worth it.

Its shame when innocent family members get hurt because others commit crimes, but it happens.

fleur-de-lisa

(14,616 posts)
36. Yes, they are benefitting from fraud.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:30 PM
Mar 2019

And they are depriving deserving applicants a chance to attend, students who should be their because they earned it.

Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #36)

BlueSpot

(851 posts)
38. Yes, but
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:27 PM
Mar 2019

If they want back in, they should go through the same application process they skipped the first time around.

Beyond that, I don't really expect 18 year olds to make the smartest life choices, especially if they were led down that path by their parents (who, to an 18 year old, should seem like reliable people). Forgive them for following bad adult guidance and let them back in if they qualify.

The adults who drove it all should be held accountable. I am not versed in law so I don't know what is appropriate. I don't know that they need to go to jail but they do seem to have plenty of money. Maybe pool it (matching what they paid or maybe that times whatever) to create a foundation that pays for the education of deserving kids.

SweetieD

(1,660 posts)
42. Yes. I have zero hesitation in that belief too. I don't care if they didn't know and I
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:46 AM
Mar 2019

Dont care if it isn't fair. Life isn't fair which is obvious from this scandal. These kids parents obviously have financial means. Thesm kids won't be destitute and can apply somewhere else on merit. And that may mean they have to retake SAT tests or redo admission applications.

Captain Stern

(2,197 posts)
47. Yes, regardless of whether the kids knew or not.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:54 AM
Mar 2019

The kids wouldn't be getting punished. They'd simply be giving back something that they shouldn't have had in the first place.

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it would be kind of like if their parents had given them a stolen car for Christmas. When discovered, wouldn't the car be taken away, and returned to it's rightful owner?

 

zazfan

(31 posts)
49. Yes, no exceptions.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:18 AM
Mar 2019

Make them all pay. Doesn't matter if they knew about it or not, it doesn't change the fact that they have unrightfully gotten what they don't merit. This shit has to stop.

Response to zazfan (Reply #49)

Vinca

(50,172 posts)
50. If the kid knew about it definitely yes. If the kid didn't know about it and is serious and doing
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:06 AM
Mar 2019

well, maybe they should let them stay. It's a shitty spot their parents have gotten them into.

dlk

(11,438 posts)
51. Unfortunately, Yes
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:14 AM
Mar 2019

Allowing them to stay would be the same as letting them to keep stolen property. If these students were poor, would we even be asking this question?

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
55. They didn't fraud anyone, their parents and other adults did
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:28 AM
Mar 2019

The FBI stated only a few kids knew -- teh ones that did can be booted. The rest did NOTHING wrong.

The sins of the parents is not a thing in the US, and the responses on this thread are shameful. Most of these kids are also victims. They did nothing wrong.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
52. Almost none of the kids knew -- the sins of the fathers and mothers isn't a thing
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:23 AM
Mar 2019

If they are doing well legitimately, there is no reason they should also be punished.

Loughlin and Mossimo's two daughters knew, so they should get the boot.

Weirdly judgmental posts towards these kids on here. It isn't there fault.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
63. It's not about punishing the students. It's about not tolerating fraud.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:11 AM
Mar 2019

Kind of a fruit of the poisonous tree thing.

To not expell the students is to ok false admission submissions by saying even if you’re caught the student can remain.

The students can start over somewhere else.

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #63)

RobinA

(9,878 posts)
59. Absolutely Not
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:35 AM
Mar 2019

We aren't talking about people who jumped the list for a heart transplant here. People have been getting into elite colleges by means other than merit since the first elite college was invented. What's next, yanking degrees from everybody who got in because they were a legacy? Their parents were high-powered and said pretty please? Someone donated a field house? A lab? They were the illegitimate son of George Washington? Bogus "community projects" on the application? SAT prep? Professional help writing the essay?

Surprise! Getting into an elite college often (usually) involves a lot more factors than merit. Start with whatever the definition of "merit" is at any given moment. It's a fact. Try to make the process more focused on integrity, but let's keep the focus on real problems. Or, here's a thought, let's be a little less impressed with where people went to school. I think we can all name people who really aren't that smart who went to elite schools. [cough, cough] And if you regularly work with people who went to elite schools, you probably already know from personal experience that the actual quality of the graduates is all over the map. Let's adjust perception to reality and move on.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
62. The issue isn't a lack of merit. The issue is fraud.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:05 AM
Mar 2019


Even a presidential admission exception due to a large donation is more transparent and legitimate than what happened in here.

To not expell the students is to ok false admission submissions by saying even if you’re caught the student can remain.

The students can start over somewhere else.

Response to aikoaiko (Reply #62)

 

rusty fender

(3,428 posts)
75. Exactly
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:25 AM
Mar 2019

Many factors go into who gets accepted into a college, and colleges have various standards for aacceptance.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
64. They should be stripped naked, tattooed...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:14 AM
Mar 2019

...and marched naked through the streets.

I’m surprised our resident experts haven’t suggested that yet.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,283 posts)
73. Sounds like a fine party you have planned. But after the festivities, ...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:07 AM
Mar 2019

... after the hangovers are cleared and all participants bailed out, then what?

They might be expelled, but they'll have some cool new tattoos to enjoy.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,283 posts)
74. How many otherwise-undeserving students are at a university ...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:14 AM
Mar 2019

... because they have parents who graduated from there? More qualified applicants were pushed aside to make room for "legacies". How many seats are semi-occupied by uninterested "students" who are there because they can kick a soccer ball? How many students were given a boost (or a roadblock) because of gender, race, country of birth, attributes that have little to do with prediction of academic success?

Stop the fraud, punish the perpetrators, and leave the kids in school to succeed or fail on their own.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
106. The issue isn't whether non-merit considerations were used, but was fraud involved.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:36 PM
Mar 2019

Most universities have things like race, ethnicity, legacy status, extracurricular activities, athleticism, musical ability, etc in the admissions process explicitly.

It's even within the rules at most universities for a president to make use his/her discretion for a presidential admission exception for any reason (like a big donation).

But fraud is different. To let them stay is to send the message to parents that fraud will benefit your student even if you're caught.

I get, I'm sympathetic to the hardship of being expelled, but I can't see a university tolerating fraud in the admission process.

DBoon

(22,288 posts)
76. If I lied on a job application and was hired based on the lie
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:34 AM
Mar 2019

I would expect to be fired promptly

I've used recruiters who, without telling me, "stretched the truth" in resumes. I would always call out the recruiter in the interview and tell the interviewer what the truth is (and maybe suggest they don't work with that recruiter anymore)

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
80. If it is proven that they were unaware, no. If so, yes.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:55 AM
Mar 2019

When I was a freshman in college, I had an assistant coach talk to me about walking on to the football team, of course other suggestions were made about pulling strings for me when I told what I was setting up to study there. I had freshman required PE with two football recruits, one became a pretty good NFL player, I did ok in the running and throwing drills relative to them, the assistant coach was the class instructor. If I had fell for the sham and things blew up, then I should have been kicked out. But say my parents were rich and the coach was paid to approach me before I even left high school and I knew nothing about what was going on, if I took the offer and things blew up, I should have gotten a slap on the wrist for lack of questioning about what was going on, but otherwise be allowed to continue school as long as my grades met standards.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
111. They got a benefit they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:06 PM
Mar 2019

The college admittances were essentially ill-gotten gains.

They could reapply, see if they can get in by their own merits.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
118. Sure, but that's a matter for a DA, if there's enuf evidence to bring charges.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:33 PM
Mar 2019

That's a separate question from whether they get to keep the benefit of their parents' crime.

If your parents had stolen a lot of money & then gave it to you, you wouldn't be able to keep it. Regardless of whether or not you knew where it came from.

Response to Demit (Reply #118)

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
180. District Attorneys decide whom to prosecute, not you and I, so that's an odd question.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:01 PM
Mar 2019

Otherwise, I think equating the rescinding of a college acceptance to the deporting of young people to countries they never knew is a specious comparison. These wealthy and very privileged children have painless alternatives, don't they?

Paladin

(28,204 posts)
105. Expelling them is the only way to end the cheating.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:36 PM
Mar 2019

Let those students derive any further benefit from the crooked means of their getting into school---regardless of their lack of personal culpability---and desperate and/or wealthy parents will continue the cheating.

 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
110. The USC students should be forced to transfer to UCLA
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:03 PM
Mar 2019

I'm not sure if we had a crew team when I was at USC in the '80s. But if so I guarantee I angered the coaches with a flippant remark or several in the Daily Trojan.

It was remarkable how those coaches found reason to be paranoid about everything, like the track coach when I wrote that the long jump was a dirty event.

Response to Devil Child (Reply #117)

Mike Nelson

(9,903 posts)
129. BIG...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:34 PM
Mar 2019

...YES. Even if some are nice people and did not know... anything less would be absurd... Educators must set a good example.

Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #129)

Mike Nelson

(9,903 posts)
166. huh?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:15 PM
Mar 2019

… I was answering about the recent news story... it involved William Rick Singer and very wealthy clients. There were a couple of actors involved, also. I assumed the OP question was about that news story.

Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #166)

MichMan

(11,790 posts)
160. The parents are filthy rich
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:38 PM
Mar 2019

The punishment for cheating the system with bribery to get their kids in elite colleges can't be to pay a little more $$ while their kids still benefit from the whole scheme.

Afromania

(2,767 posts)
142. No, but their grades should be audited. If they wer ein on any sort of scholarship the parents
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:49 PM
Mar 2019

should both pay that back and be fined at least as much as it would have cost for a student that deserved the spot. We'll never know how much the cost opportunities were for hard working students screwed over by this.

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
150. If they knew
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:12 PM
Mar 2019

Which I’m sure many did, then yes either expell them or make them transfer to another school. The people who they bribed in the college must be dealt with as well. It won’t take care of the legacy donations etc. But at least it will send a message that you can’t cheat your way into a school by fraud.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
153. absolutely and any that who have a diploma/degree needs it rescinded ASAP and a
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:18 PM
Mar 2019

real investigation into all the universities admission departments with indictments ready to be issued

mainer

(12,013 posts)
167. If they didn't know, they're too dumb to be there
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:17 PM
Mar 2019

Anyway you look at it, the kids are either clueless or complicit

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
183. Some should. Some shouldn't
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:39 PM
Mar 2019

Some should be re-evaluated.

Each of the students should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Blanket solutions are rarely a good idea in matters of justice and punishment

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
184. I wondering about students who have already graduated
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:48 PM
Mar 2019

with a degree, who benefitted from this.

You just know it's been going on for a long time.

Yank their degrees?

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