Rolling Stone: "If Trump isn't worth impeachment, who is?"

[Laura PourMeADrink]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pelosi-trump-impeachment-807291

Jamil Smith, Rolling Stone
Snip
If the House obtains evidence that implicates Trump in criminal acts — either through their own investigations or through Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s — and still don’t go forth with the process as stated in the Constitution, they are not only in abdication of their duties, but they violate their own standards.

They ask voters to believe in a system of government, then ignore those rules when it suits their political convenience. All the while, the marginalized communities who suffer most under this president, the ones who cannot assume that they’ll have their vote counted in 2020, sit powerless as the House majority performs an elaborate show that will ultimately result in very few, if any, consequences for this president.

Not only does Pelosi’s statement mean that Trump has little to fear from actual impeachment, but he can now go on the stump and lie, as he has done countless times before.

[PTWB]

1. There is no reason to impeach at this point.

The Senate will not convict and the failed impeachment will rally his base while demoralizing ours. If the Mueller report changes that likely outcome, then we should proceed.

Pelosi knows what she is doing.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

4. Exactly the point of article..politics over what's right???

[SlogginThroughIt]

17. And when a failed impeachment nets us 4 more years?

Even a successful impeachment would get us Pence. That would be disastrous for women and lgbtq community. A failed impeachment would embolden Trump like nothing else. He wouldn’t do the Bill Clinton let’s move on thing. He would feel enabled and boast and feel as though he had the green light to do whatever he felt -even more so that he already does. It also would likely kill support for the ongoing investigations. Impeachment right now would be awful. And I say that as someone that wants him impeached as soon as possible.

[ProfessorGAC]

43. Pence Is Not The Concern

We disagree on his impact. I believe that he would amount to little more than a pile of dirt.
Almost nobody voted in 2016 for him.
He's nothing but a lapdog, and if he took over from a disgraced potus, he would the teeth of an earthworm.
Zero influence, zero clout.

[SlogginThroughIt]

63. Who would detooth him? Republican senate?

Pence has a whole caucus that would embolden him and any judicial appointments would follow suit to what we have now as well. It also gives him a head start into the next election.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. Reality

Ford was nothing, and he was an honorable man without enemies until he became a national joke, because of Nixon resigning in disgrace.
The Senate is irrelevant. Being a leftover does not make for a gourmet meal.

[SlogginThroughIt]

72. are you assuming he doesn't win a second term?

He will not be removed from office so we are basically putting a campaign issue on the table for him. A failed impeachment would be worse for democrats than it wpuld be for him. it legitimizes his absurd witch hunt claimes. How does that help anyone?

[treestar]

20. If it would have him a 2020 victory, that is not what's right

[Laura PourMeADrink]

22. I agree - that's the risk. But, in my view, the offsetting risk of inaction, we are seeing ACTUALLY

play out today is worse. It is really impossible for me to imagine that Trump will evoke voter sympathy when X number of actual crimes and misdemeanors are articulately and succinctly enumerated in a formal setting. Because, isn't that what you are actually fearing? That people will feel sorry for him and vote for him?

[treestar]

23. Perhaps. That is why proof is necessary

Though the Senators who would vote who are such partisan Rs would have to have really, really good proof not to be embarrassed to vote to convict the Dotard. We know how attached they are to their alternate facts and excuse theories. We tend to be excited about things that come out to show Dotard is guilty, but need to be a bit more circumspect as to whether there is proof to convince the R Senators they'd look like fools ignoring it. There could be proof that even they would have to admit he's guilty. That's what we want to be sure we have.

[beachbum bob]

2. Rolling Stone missing the entire message of what Pelosi said,

[Chickensoup]

7. Actually I think you may be missing

the point as well. What we have is
challenge to our way of life not just
a passing fade. It will be a long struggle
to put the gene that trump released
back in the bottle. It is not about wining
elections only, it is about resisting
Evil ideology because it is the Right thing
To do to save our country and what
it stands for.

[still_one]

51. Not to be critical of the point you are making, but at this particular moment in time it is about

winning elections.

We are on the precipice of some very dangerous things happening if we don't

I also think the RS article is being fair to Pelosi's strategy. She is not taking impeachment off the table, and in fact said as much.

The reality is that impeachment is a political process. It is whatever Congress determines is an impeachable offense, and it requires 2/3 of the Senate for conviction.

I think when we finally have the Mueller report, plus any other evidence through the House investigations, we will see where to go from there.

While some have argued that you cannot indict a sitting president, I am not so sure that the courts would agree with that, and if the evidence from these reports and investigations is compelling enough, that might just be the path taken.

While there are so many things that can happen, I think in the end the only sure way trump can removed from office will be at the voting booth

[stonecutter357]

3. " he's just not worth it" , House Speaker Nancy Pelosi .

[LiberalArkie]

21. That is the problem in my thinking..

The police seldom pull over rich white people but will pull over someone in a old beat up car. Why?

It isn't worth it to ticket the rich person as they have lawyers and will fight it.

The poor can't afford lawyers and have no influence..

Pelosi is just reflecting how our legal system works. I think they like it like that.

[Zoonart]

5. This is intellectually dishonest.

They ask voters to believe in a system of government, then ignore those rules when it suits their political convenience.

Our concern with marginalized communities is that if MF45 remains in office past 2020, they may never recover.

When you shoot at the King you cannot miss. Impeachment in the House and acquittal in the senate is a huge GIFT to tRump.

Recent history will tell you.... the impeachment of Bill CLinton in the house and acquittal in the senate handed the Democrats the biggest election victory in twenty years. This cannot happen to us in 2020.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Of course in a just world he is "worth" impeachment, but this is not a just world, and...

there are extreme risks. As others have noted here, the biggest risk is that if it fails it just gives him a larger platform and more power.

Since we have had one disgraced president resign and only one other impeachment in over a hundred years, we have very little experience with the process. As usual, though, the calls for impeachment come from corners that will take no responsibility if it fails.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

13. Guess you have to weigh the two outcomes...the known...that trump's actions have been

Legitimized...nothing to see here...guess he’s ok...if they aren’t going to punish him? Vs. an unknown possible political outcome. Hardly a comparison...a lying about sex vs. the mountains of trump sins.

[area51]

60. This is one of the things that concerns me,

that if our allies -- and our enemies -- see that we do nothing about a mentally-ill president suffering from dementia, who has committed multiple crimes, will they ever trust us again? If nothing else, hopefully Trump will be fired in 2020, but I'm not sure what lies ahead for the US in terms of relations with other countries. Our allies might say, "thank God Trump is gone, but why did they not try to remove him from office?"

[Laura PourMeADrink]

69. Good points. But think about how much more magnified it will be when the Mueller report comes

out and we let that slide too.

Bet the headlines will be...”you knew about this and did nothing?

[TreasonousBastard]

74. Trump's actions have not been legitimized yet, but they will be if he is...

impeached and survives.

As with Nixon and the tapes, he will best be impeached when we reach a tipping point that erases his Republican support.

[58Sunliner]

8. I agree. We will never know until we do make the effort what the consequences will be.

It is demoralizing. And a demoralized electorate does not turn out to vote in the numbers that we need. The assumption that there will be nothing but negative consequences, that it will somehow bolster or empower DT, is just fear mongering. And I don't think people voted in a blue wave just to have people sit in fear.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

15. Perfectly stated!!!! Bottom line...how do you inspire when your position is that you

Will look the other way because you are worried about how the politics will affect your future?

[58Sunliner]

61. Amen.

[Blues Heron]

9. What are the dem leaders waiting for - an engraved invitation?

Impeachment is never to be taken lightly, but this situation is begging for it. Stop playing 9 dimensional simulated chess.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

11. The biggest harm of not impeaching, to me, is that it legitimizes his actions! Just like

Bush/Cheney ! They conducted a war where hundreds of thousands died, all originally based on fake info. Yet noooooooo, no impeachment.

It is no wonder why what we stand for, to our core, has been diluted

[fescuerescue]

53. Double so

If he is acquitted in the Senate.

[Blues Heron]

57. Let it be on their hands then

That's their problem. We need to do what's right with what we have, which is the house. We won't know what the senate does until we act. You seem to think doing nothing is a fine option.You would be wrong.

[fescuerescue]

58. Yes. 50 of them will feel bad

When they enable Trump to a second term. But they'll still be super wealthy, have top-tier healthcare along with a guaranteed job for another 2 to 6 years. It'll be on their hands. That's really comforting. The other 50? Well they get all those benefits plus the joy of victory over us.

Yes I could be wrong. I could be right too. In any case it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong.

It matters what Nancy Pelosi thinks and she is the one we elected to deal with Trump.

Personally I think she's right.

[Blues Heron]

56. +1

Totally agree re. Bush/Cheney

[madville]

10. The window is closing

Pelosi is not going to allow impeachment in 2020 during the primary and general election campaigns.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

12. Sadly, that is probably true.

[mnmoderatedem]

14. Bill Clinton of course

because hanky panky with an intern is far more problematic than everything that is going on with this administration.

#sarcasm

[c-rational]

16. I personally believe the dumpsterr is seriously damaging our county and its social fabric, and if it

can be proven that he has committed high crimes and misdemeanors he should be impeached. That said, impeachment is a political process and thus the political situation needs to be considered. I think Pelosi is doing a fine job with leadership and I will follow her lead.. Another factor against impeachment at this time is the complete skewing of M$M to the right. We heard about BC's bj 24/7. We are not hearing about the Dumpster's policies destroying our country on a daily basis. We need to win all three branches of government in 2020 and make some serious structural changes.

[kacekwl]

18. The 1st sentence states what

Nancy Pelosi said. I really don't get the problem. If we have evidence and proof is the key.

[treestar]

19. If the Republicans were not so unashamedly partisan

they would have a point. But we know that with what we have now, or even more, they will make excuses and vote to acquit him in this Senate.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. Think the author made a good point. Not impeaching is a gift to the GOP - they can

run without having to justify his actions.

Reporter: "Should we be impeaching?"
GOP: "No"
Reporter: "So, you think it's OK to commit X, Y, Z ? "
GOP: "Uh.....????....."

[spike91nz]

25. Rollingstone

Rollingstone is spot on. We are in a fight for the republic. We must demonstrate that the president cannot ignore the constitution and bring corruption to the heart of the people’s government.

[whopis01]

73. How does having the President acquitted by the Senate

demonstrate that he cannot ignore the Constitution?

[njhoneybadger]

26. Speaker Nancy Pelosi has an obligation to do what is best for the country

Cut the bullshit Mr. Smith. Don't base an entire article on a quote you don't even understand

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. Problem with the logic is that Pelosi was also

against impeaching Bush on his
war crimes. In retrospect, that is outrageous. With all due respect due to all who agree, don't understand why one person who personally finds impeachment distasteful gets to decide.

[yaesu]

27. Is it a choice or a duty?

We all know he has committed impeachable offenses. The House also has the power to censure a president. I know they fear not having enough votes but any measure will go on the record, that they tried, that the orange Nazi is a POS & that repugs let him get away with it.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. It's obviously a choice. There in lies the travesty of

looking the other way. Trump can run in 2020 and we tacitly approve of him and telegraph our acceptance of his behavior by not acting, as per our duty and for what what is right.

[JoeOtterbein]

28. Trump and the GOP will claim we want to Impeach him anyway, so we should...

...Impeach!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. Best argument yet !!!!!!

[JoeOtterbein]

41. Thanks!

Now I think I'll have a drink to celebrate!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. Yes, your job is done! No point in making us

lesser minds feel inferior .

[BeyondGeography]

29. Failure to impeach carries a much higher risk of defeat than playing it safe

The impact of public hearings, even if they don’t sway enough Senate Republicans, will drive home the scale and depth of Trump rot, in a way that campaigning won’t even approach. It will also put much more pressure on the 20-plus Senate Republican apologists running for re-election in 2020.

The risks? He gets off, but not without impeachment for obstruction of justice and multiple felonies connected to the 2016 election. The case is already there and the Mueller Report will only strengthen it.

Failure to impeach will quickly and successfully be repackaged as vindication by Trump and all Republicans running in 2020. Democrats who think they’ll be rewarded for sticking to the public’s business and avoiding a messy confrontation are kidding themselves.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

42. To add, congressional hearings WILL uncover more dirt

Undisputably. Yet, it diffuses the impact since the average citizen is not keeping up with it. They don't have time. An impeachment would wrap it up into a package and piling up crimes together always has more impact. If we are worried that citizens think we would spend too much time on impeachment what about too much time on hearings?

[LakeArenal]

30. I think we need Mueller's report.

But I also think the real problem is that an impeachment would take probably two years and a gazillion dollars.

Meanwhile the focus of Dump will overshadow the candidacy of our great
candidates.

Not to mention the huge divide making folks RABID for each side.

That being said, “He’s not worth it.” Is more to get under Dumps skin. I think anyway. Unfortunately, under our skin as well.

If the Mueller Report comes out. There may be a new Congressional decision.

[Ferrets are Cool]

31. This is gonna "sting" here at DU

But it is the truth, like it or not. WE HAVE CHILDREN IN FUCKING CAGES BY ORDER OF THE POTUS!!!!

[democrank]

39. Thank you, FaC.

I read so much about how we’re playing chess while Trump and his people are playing Candyland. There are still children in cages. Trump needs to be stopped....now.

[Ferrets are Cool]

67. +1

[Kurt V.]

32. K&R.

[pdsimdars]

33. That's one of the things I thought . . reacting to that statement

[jalan48]

35. Trump would be impeached, but not convicted by the Senate. I don't understand how impeachment

hearings in the House would hurt Democrats. It seems we would benefit from the public, fact-finding process.

[panfluteman]

38. After Reading the Whole Rolling Stone Article,

I'll have to throw my hat in the ring for impeachment. The bottom line is that you can't argue against the article's central premise. If Trump isn't worth impeachment, then our entire system of government stands for nothing, is worth nothing. In contrast to a president who is not only a master charlatan and con man, but also a sociopath and shameless opportunist who doesn't give a rat's @$$ about our democracy, NOW is the time to stand by our principles and put our democracy to work, in direct defiance of this criminal president. Trump's greatest strength is his uncanny, killer political instincts for shamelessly and ruthlessly exploiting the weaknesses of our body politic, and if he feels that he is immune from impeachment, he will continue to take advantage of the political situation and push the envelope to the breaking point. The Democratic house should go forward vigorously with the investigations, because the results of these investigations form the basis for impeachment. I think that, rather than worry about the political consequences, Democrats should be showing more spine and backbone in standing up for the basic principles and institutions of our democracy, and enforcing the rule of law whenever they can. I sensed intuitively even back during the 2016 election campaign, and all throughout the Trump presidency so far, that the further we continue to kick the can down the road, the greater the violence and discord will ultimately be for our nation. When faced with a president who is absolutely rogue and lawless, and exactly like an opportunistic cancer upon our nation, the only solution that will work is his removal from office ASAP. Once Democrats start to show some spine, and to back up their words with action, that will force the Republicans to show their true colors for all to see: Are they merely the Trump mafia, serving the interests of one man and his crime family, or are they going to uphold their oath to protect our nation, and the constitution? I don't give a rat's @$$ if Pence becomes acting president after impeachment - he's nothing but a sniveling sycophant to this criminal president anyway, and he won't dare to do anything out of line if Trump is impeached. And even if the impeachment is unsuccessful in the Senate, the battle lines will have been drawn, provided the investigations are thorough, and turn up incontrovertible proof of Trump's high crimes and misdemeanors, which I am 100% confident that they will. This will propel the Democratic candidate on to victory in 2020. We should all heed Cohen's final words about Trump not accepting a peaceful transfer of power if he loses in 2020 seriously and literally. Heck, even during the 2016 election campaign, Trump said he would accept the results of the election only if he won. We need to investigate and work as fast as we can to get Trump out of office before the 2020 election, or at least to disqualify him from entering the race. But removal from office is by far the best option, IMO.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. Yes, yes to the nth degree. Start drafting articles ASAP or

start amending whatever anyone's written so far. Leave blank spaces to drop in articles that are sure to come from Mueller report. Boom.

I can't imagine how that could hurt us. It's impossible to believe that more people would feel sorry for him and vote for him than the number of people who would be turned off by hearing all his crimes enumerated.

If the former wins, then there is no hope for our society.

[dalton99a]

40. Kick

[DFW]

47. DUH. Of COURSE he's worth impeaching. No one disputes that. The question is:

Once he's impeached, and acquitted by the Republican-dominated Senate, is it worth it to have him strut around like a male peacock as "vindicated" after the Democratic "witch hunt," which failed, since he was so beloved?

Let Mueller release some solid evidence so damning, even Republican Senators feel their re-elections are imperiled if the vote for acquittal. Other than than, an impeachment is a one-off shot of adrenaline. It'll feel good while it lasts, but when it wears off, you'll feel worse than before. Just ask Newt Gingrich.

[BeyondGeography]

49. Philippe Reines covered that

and he disagrees with you:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211915402

[DFW]

54. And I disagree with Philippe Reines. His word is no more gospel than mine is.

He thinks that a Republican Senator's vote for Trump in an impeachment trial is a liability to that Senator's re-election in 2020.

In what state? Our best shots at flipping Senate seats as things look now are probably Maine, Colorado, Iowa, and North Carolina, and Arizona, and none of them are absolute locks. Voters in those states, with the possible exceptions of Maine and NC, won't make a vote on a Trump conviction a main issue. And in many states, a vote against convicting trump will even be an asset. That's how polarized the country has become. Reines seems to think we have much to gain, even if we impeach and fail to convict. His arguments for that did not convince me. Like German foreign Minister Joschka Fischer told Donald Rumsfeld when Rumsfeld presented arguments to convince Germany to join the Iraq invasion in 2003: "you have not convinced me."

[BeyondGeography]

55. His main point is impeachment was not a net negative for Republicans

and they had much less to work with than we do. If you’re basing your argument against impeachment now on what happened in 1998, which you seem to be doing, and the essence of your case is, “see what happened to Gingrich,” that’s not very compelling.

[DFW]

62. Not just Gingrich. Clinton came out smelling like a rose for his vindication

That was certainly not the goal of either Gingrich or Henry Hyde. The impeachment of Bill Clinton was to impede and distract a popular and effective president. They failed at impeding his presidency, and only mildly distracted him, in that he needed a defense at the trial.

Trump's presidency is already a failure, and with his attention span of 30 seconds or so, trying to distract him is almost beside the point. Therefore, the only two goals accomplished in 1998-99 are already done deals. A failure is a failure. You can't execute a dead man.

What I do NOT want to see is Trump doing the happy dance of vindication after the inevitable acquittal by the current Republican Senate with the currently available evidence.

THAT is the "essence of my case," and if you don't find it very compelling, we'll just have to disagree on what compels whom. You have the more difficult task, as Nancy Pelosi doesn't seem to have been compelled by your argument so far, either.

[BeyondGeography]

64. No need to wait on the happy dance of vindication

That’s already happening:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/pelosi-impeachment-trump-russia-collusion-mueller-guilty.html

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Geez, they sure do stick together!

“For two years, the Democrats’ plans to impeach Trump were evidence the Russia scandal was supposedly a hoax. Now, the Democrats’ plan not to impeach Trump proves the Russia scandal is a hoax.”

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. Very good History Channel piece on why Clinton survived impeachment

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.history.com/.amp/news/clinton-impeachment-lewinsky-scandal-nixon-resigned-watergate&ved=2ahUKEwinmsGq9onhAhUDO60KHTMQAk0QFjAPegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3HM375UUHFRPH51_OwL3K-&cf=1
Snip
"Scott Basinger, an associate political science professor at the University of Houston, says the betrayal of Nixon’s allies contributed to his downfall, as well, while Clinton had fewer "co-conspirators," such as his secretary, Betty Currie. And, he adds, the type of scandal was also different—“personal immorality of a sexual nature rather than abuse of political power"

[BeyondGeography]

66. Near-term survival, yes

But what do you think Bill’s campaign schedule will look like next year? Not to mention Trump’s ability to deflect from the Access Hollywood tape in 2016 by trotting out Ken Starr’s greatest hits. One could easily argue that after the 1998 midterms we’ve been losing ever since on that deal, starting with W theming his 2000 presidential campaign on restoring honor and integrity to the a White House and Gore feeling boxed into naming Lieberman, the anti-Bill on morals, as his running mate. Impeachment and all that came with it put us on our heels.

[treestar]

71. +1

[aikoaiko]

48. That was one poor sentence in an otherwise ok statement.

I wish she had included [at this point] after the first part and left off the last sentence.

“I’m not for impeachment [at this point],” Pelosi told the Post, saying she had been giving it some thought. “Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he’s just not worth it.”

[fescuerescue]

50. Anyone who commited impeachable crimes and IS convictable

That's who.

[triron]

52. And continue committing TREASON.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

59. how many will stay home on election day because of no impeachment?