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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBottom line: This is a disaster for Democrats.
This isn't pearl clutching. It's the reality. The headlines are damning, and it's not just to the obstruction charges.
There's two stories here and neither are going to be favorable in the coming days, and weeks, for the Democrats.
1) Mueller admits to not finding evidence that Trump colluded with the Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign.
Link to tweet
This is a devastating realization because that was what the whole investigation was predicated on when it began in 2017. The #NoCollusion tweets by Trump were laughed at, mocked and a sign of a panicked, and desperate man. Now, after Democrats have spoken of Mueller as some beacon of truth and justice, the ruling there is that we don't have evidence Trump actively colluded with the Russians. How can Democrats reconcile their praise of Mueller for the last two years with the fact he just basically admitted that the President was right and there's not enough evidence, or any evidence at all, that Trump colluded with the Russians? That puts these same Democrats in a very tough spot because now, if they want to investigate further, they've got to deal with the fact that Mueller himself, the guy they all praised and lauded the last two years, couldn't find sufficient evidence of collusion - so, what are they going to find and how is this NOT a witch hunt?
And that leads to the second issue...
2) Mueller admits that there isn't sufficient enough evidence to conclude that Trump committed obstruction. Now he also admits that there isn't enough evidence to suggest he didn't, either, but herein lies the problem: IF Point 1, that there wasn't enough evidence to point to Trump colluding with Russia, was a direct result of Trump obstructing and obviating, then point two would have more meat. But Mueller is saying they couldn't determine, either way, which suggests they concluded their first point in spite of the potential of obstructing, so, Mueller is essentially stating they didn't reach their first conclusion because of obstruction. There just wasn't enough evidence that he colluded with Russia.
This is a double-whammy for Democrats. Because the first point DOES exonerate Trump and because the second point is in doubt, and Mueller doesn't state they failed to reach a determination on the first point because of obstruction, there really is very little ground for the Democrats to stand on. They can push for obstruction charges but the narrative is set: Mueller didn't find evidence Trump colluded with Russia, which was the initial meat of the investigation. If he didn't collude, then the investigation WAS a witch hunt and any continued investigation, whether into obstruction charges or not, would be overkill and needless since Mueller determined, the same Mueller Democrats have been praising for two years now, that they couldn't find evidence of the President colluding.
This is a nightmare scenario for the Democrats. The fact Mueller couldn't find enough evidence that Trump colluded, and that isn't a direct result of Trump obstructing justice (which, had it been, there would be evidence of that obstruction, but instead we're told there isn't sufficient enough evidence the president committed a crime), means Trump has the narrative now.
And that means any additional investigation will be tainted in the court of public opinion of Democrats really conducting a witch hunt.
So much was riding on this report that there's no walking back from it. We were told for two years there was enough evidence for collusion and Mueller couldn't even reach the conclusion that they couldn't effectively determine collusion because the President was obstructing their investigation at every turn...even that would have been devastating for Trump.
But none of that happened. Mueller basically said that, while Trump may have committed a crime, we don't have enough evidence to determine either way. Well if you determined there wasn't enough evidence that he colluded, and you've also determined there isn't enough evidence that he obstructed justice, then the whole investigation exonerates the President of collusion.
Expect a shit-ton of "I WAS RIGHT" tweets. He was vindicated. Democrats have a very steep hill to climb now. Fortunately, this came out in 2019 and not 2020, so, by then, maybe most of America will have forgotten about this farce.
But here's a warning to Democrats: Don't overplay your hand. You do, and you'll lose it all.
Now I see why Pelosi wasn't keen on impeachment. It all makes sense now. She probably saw this coming.
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StarryNite
(12,116 posts)
writes3000
(4,824 posts)Excuse me if I don’t trust the corruption as if it’s anything but.
blm
(114,658 posts)Don’t act the way Barr hoped you would act.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The collusion point is the devastating one: unless Barr is lying, Mueller didn't find any evidence of collusion. If Barr is lying, then the whole house of cards will fall. I don't think Barr is lying, though.
blm
(114,658 posts)That letter is ALL weasel words carefully chosen.
trueblue2007
(19,251 posts)
k8conant
(3,038 posts)"The Special Counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion -- one way or the other -- as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction." ...
"...Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel's investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense." [Emphasis mine]
https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/AG%20March%2024%202019%20Letter%20to%20House%20and%20Senate%20Judiciary%20Committees.pdf
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)If they couldn't garner enough evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, or anyone in his campaign for that matter, because of obstruction, then that would be sufficient enough evidence of obstruction. The fact neither is a claim tells me there's not enough evidence, either way, on collusion.
blm
(114,658 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The writing has been on the wall for a minute now. It just all came together today.
This explains why, despite a Mueller memo from April, 2017, suggested Paul Manafort was colluding with Russians when he was working for the Trump Campaign, he was never brought up on those charges TWO YEARS later. Rosenstein wanted Mueller to investigate the collusion claims ... yet no actual charges were filed in regards to those initial claims. It also answers the question why most the indictments weren't actually centered around collusion.
blm
(114,658 posts)So diligently working for your cause.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)kcr
(15,522 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)These were legit questions asked a good amount of times. Great, Mueller got these crooks...but why isn't it because of Russia? Manafort was alleged to have colluded with Russia during his time with the Trump campaign according to a released DOJ memo from 2017. Why, then, did Mueller fail to even charge Manafort with it?
The writing was on the wall. If there was collusion, Trump's pals did a great job of not getting charged over it.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)IT'S FITZMAS, EVERYONE!
WOOT!
Thekaspervote
(35,820 posts)Personally, it makes me even more determined to do everything I can to rid our country of this stain
RHMerriman
(1,376 posts)I don't see this as a win for the Trump Administration...
Mueller punted to Barr, and Barr punted to Congress. Neither one was a profile in courage, obviously.
The only patriots in all this are the Democrats in Congress, and given the insight into how Trump does business, they have plenty to go after.
Bottom line, Trump hired a national security advisor, campaign chair, deputy campaign chair, personal attorney/national party finance co-chair, and a dozen other losers who have consistently proven themselves untrustworthy for the positions they were given - and the GOP as an institution and organization have accepted that bottom line, which indicts them as just as much as it has Trump, Pence, McConnell, etc.
Comes down to the reality that Trump is surrounded by crooks that he hired... "I'm not a crook" didn't work for Nixon; I don't see that as really a winning slogan for Trump.
Using Nixon as the template, it's worth remembering Nixon won re-election in '72, despite multiple scandals and the debacle in SE Asia; and yet he didn't finish a second term.
Keep the faith, and keep up the fire
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Mueller did not find evidence Trump colluded with Russia. The narrative is lost now. Any additional investigation into Trump will look 100% political.
RHMerriman
(1,376 posts)"collusion" is not a crime listed in any applicable criminal code in the US; if you're going to argue the law, argue the law, not made-up words from propagandists.
Politics is entirely different, and as said, "I'm not a crook" didn't work for Nixon - I see little liklihood it works for Trump.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)going forward.
I'm afraid there was already fatigue setting in on this matter, and we were told to be quiet and trust Robert Mueller, so we did.
If our leadership continues this, it will likely be viewed as nothing more than wasting time and resources on a confirmed dead issue.
No, I don't agree, I still believe Trump is dirty and that confidential report spells it out. But this is what we are left holding and I don't think it can be fought without taking on serious damage.
We must find another way, and it can't be about Russian anything.
orangecrush
(30,261 posts)
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)that the dozens other impeachmentable deeds get brushed over. no more.
at140
(6,251 posts)When there is no evidence found of a crime actually happened?
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I mean, there might be evidence to suggest potential collusion, and maybe the entirety of the investigation wasn't realized due to possible obstruction. But it's also possible the obstruction came from other avenues not tied to the collusion part ... like Trump's tax returns or other business dealings that Trump knows is illegal.
Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)
Post removed
Buckeyeblue
(6,352 posts)The Republicans did. The House didn't flip because of the special counsel, it flipped because 45 is a shitty president. He remains a shitty president.
Oh, and the person that is pronouncing the final "verdict" is the presidents own AG.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)They didn't appoint him - but he certainly gained their support.
blm
(114,658 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Eventually, the report will be released, in full, and I'm doubtful there's enough meat there for me to believe they found collusion evidence.
blm
(114,658 posts)varies as needed. You had one helluva lot of personal analysis in your original post that had ZERO doubt of even one weasel word written by Barr.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)That's not spin, that's an outright conclusion. The spin part only comes in regards to obstruction. But the whole foundation of the investigation was that Trump colluded with Russia and Mueller didn't find evidence to point to that.
blm
(114,658 posts)That’s why he wrote it that way. Cooked up special for headlines and fools. Swallow away.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Buckeyeblue
(6,352 posts)What if it says there is good reason to believe that collusion exists but not enough evidence to go to trial. The report refused to take a stance on obstruction. Maybe those were the instructions given.
There is a lot we don't know.
dalton99a
(94,140 posts)under Republican administration with Republicans controlling the White House, the House, and the Senate.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)I know, but it's still there and we have to manage it properly.
We can't simply hammer on the same thing unless it specifically points to an illegal cover-up. We need public perception on our side in order to progress.
I'm afraid we are going to have to find another way, and that may include facing the idea that we might just have to live with this POS for 2 more years. At that time we already know he's done for, he can't survive another election.
RHMerriman
(1,376 posts)Yeah, DI is apparently the kind of individual who makes judgments absent evidence.
At this point, exactly NOTHING has been made public of the SCO's findings.
Barr's 4 page letter doesn't even quote Mueller's documents, as far as I can see...
qazplm135
(7,654 posts)The Dems were smarter than some folks in their base. They tamped down all the impeachment talk and made it more about oversight.
IF they'd be full bore on impeachment, then yes, this would have been a disaster.
But since they have not been, all this means is what it was always going to mean...Dems have to beat him at the polling booth to get him out of office.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)But it also means any continued investigation may appear as an actual witch hunt.
blm
(114,658 posts)the Mueller report because YOU swallowed Barr’s spin whole.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I will.
And meanwhile, let's keep beating a dead horse about collusion that doesn't appear to be there. That's a winning ticket!
blm
(114,658 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)This does explain why Mueller never indicted anyone directly linked to Russian hacking/interference, though, or why no one in the Trump campaign was actually indicted for collusion claims.
qazplm135
(7,654 posts)There's a ton more out there to investigate other than "collusion."
regnaD kciN
(27,640 posts)We denounced Trump because he had "colluded with Russia." Now that the report comes out establishing that he did NOT collude with Russia, is anyone going to take it seriously when we suggest that the REAL big-ticket item is, instead, that he overvalued his properties years before going into politics?
The fact is that, in the public eye, Trump is now in the clear and Democrats look like fools. I suspect that, barring a major recession next year, Trump is guaranteed to be our president through 2024.
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)Jesus Christ, you people are driving me crazy with this defeatist bullshit.
This is so annoying that I'm highly tempted to start blocking people. I've done that maybe once in all the 14 years I've been here.
qazplm135
(7,654 posts)I surely didn't. I've said from the start as many others have that beating him in the next election is the only way we beat him. Impeachment and indictment were pipe dream fantasies.
It's good this happened now, and not say a month before the election.
Guaranteed? FFS, grab some courage and get to work.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)There are plenty of ongoing investigations. Mueller punted to the States, NY and VA.
PLENTY STILL COMING.
Kingofalldems
(40,279 posts)Democrats? Don't think so.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)blm
(114,658 posts)without showing a shred of doubt?
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I'm tired of being told, "just wait..."
That's all I heard during the 2016 campaign when I questioned close poll numbers. That's all I've heard since Mueller's investigation began. Now I'm hearing it after the investigation has concluded. Let me guess, when it's released, and Mueller states there's no evidence of collusion, we'll be told to wait until the Democrats get done with their investigation!
Spare me. We spent two years on this and the narrative is completely gone.
blm
(114,658 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I believe Mueller's findings are muddled at best but without a strong declaration of obstruction, and the fact he may have found no evidence of collusion, really undermines this entire investigation.
This all makes sense, though. How many indictments did we see directly in response to Russia hacking/collusion?
blm
(114,658 posts)Yep - you’re Barr’s target audience
Good of you to share how concerned you are. .
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I had hopes it'd eventually lead to indictments based on election tampering/hacking/colluding, but that never happened. Hell, look at Manafort. Mueller alleged Manafort was colluding with the Russians when he worked for the Trump campaign ... but no charges were ever filed in regards to that claim. Manafort's attorneys say Mueller never found evidence of that collusion. And why shouldn't I believe it? That memo was released in April, 2017. It's now nearly April, 2019, two years later, and no charges were ever made on that collusion claim.
blm
(114,658 posts)Sure, DI.
Sure.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)blm
(114,658 posts)Barr’s words whole and then immediately advise Dems to stop investigating any further for FEAR that it might look bad.
Sure, DI. Sure.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)If there's ample evidence in his report that Trump colluded with Russia, then there would have been charges made to people like Manafort, especially since Mueller was given the green light to investigate those charges.
Curious, after two years, and many indictments, only a couple actually dealt with Russian connections, and one, Flynn, wasn't even directly linked back to Trump and more due to him being a foreign agent. 
blm
(114,658 posts)You claim there are questions yet you don’t want Dems to ask them of Mueller and Barr during sworn testimony.
Sure, DI. Sure.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Mueller couldn't find enough evidence to prove Trump colluded with Russia.
blm
(114,658 posts)You swallowed and you brought it here to regurgitate. And added ADVICE to Democrats to not pursuit answers because Barr’s weasel words are authority enough.
Sure, DI. Sure.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The investigation wasn't a secret. We saw the indictments. Maybe you weren't paying attention. I was. Now, maybe you will going forward.
The writing was on the wall. I'm sorry you refuse to see it. Have a good one.
keith sw
(45 posts)And I hope I’m wrong. We lost, plain and simple. That was the whole reason Barr got the AG job. To make sure we would lose
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,853 posts)I demur from your conclusion that it's a disaster. Trump is an underdog in the gaming markets. If he becomes the favorite in the next couple of weeks I'll concede it's a disaster, for the moment.
blm
(114,658 posts)making the claim that Mueller is ADMITTING there is no evidence to make a conclusion, which is a subjective use of word since one ADMITS when they are coming clean.
Not trusting Barr’s weasel words or anyone directing Dems to drop the pursuit of the truth.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,853 posts)Arazi
(8,887 posts)allgood33
(1,584 posts)
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)I mean if we’re screwed why bother?
maryellen99
(3,798 posts)Were screwed.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)Arazi
(8,887 posts)I'm not sure why you are jumping to the erroneous conclusions that I'm not going to be active for 2020. That's fucked up
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)Arazi
(8,887 posts)Here:
This is a nightmare scenario for the Democrats. The fact Mueller couldn't find enough evidence that Trump colluded, and that isn't a direct result of Trump obstructing justice (which, had it been, there would be evidence of that obstruction, but instead we're told there isn't sufficient enough evidence the president committed a crime), means Trump has the narrative now.
And that means any additional investigation will be tainted in the court of public opinion of Democrats really conducting a witch hunt.
Snip
But here's a warning to Democrats: Don't overplay your hand. You do, and you'll lose it all.
I'm not in the mood to deal if you aren't going to read what people are saying. Feel free to have the last word
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)Which was nothing more than alarmist twaddle.
You wrote “Dems are screwed”. Which begs the question, if that is the case, why bother?
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)Rub some dirt on it, walk it off and get back in the fight. or get out of the way.
I have no response to the OP because it’s not worth it. That would be like trying to comfort a teen who has their heart broken for the first time. They’re convinced it’s the end of the world, that they will never love again. Nothing can be said to assuage their grief. The same nonsense is being espoused in the OP. No need to bother trying to refute it.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)
underpants
(196,504 posts)Breaking: Trump responds to Mueller’s findings: ‘Complete and Total EXONERATION.’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/republicans-and-democrats-brace-for-renewed-battles-over-mueller-report/2019/03/23/56d9f214-4db3-11e9-b79a-961983b7e0cd_story.html
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)
keith sw
(45 posts)Mark my words, nothing will come of this. We lost, the bad guys won, in America the bad guys often win. Unfortunately, Money wins in America
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)That’s life’s cruel reality.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)I don't think it is, not by a long stretch.
But this needs managed properly.
Right now I think the best approach is a low-noise, active push to see the actual report under the premise of transparency.
With enough pressure, we can get that. And when we do, it will be quite heavily redacted. THAT is what people need to see for themselves. then the questions will arise... "what the heck is all blacked out here?"
That is our ticket moving forward I believe. But then again, no one ever accused me of being an expert in politics either.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)I’m all for that. I’m also for moving on to 2020 while other people deal with it.
k8conant
(3,038 posts)
misanthrope
(9,495 posts)
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)Thank God for that midterm election.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)2020 here we come. We need the Senate and the WH.
stonecutter357
(13,045 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)I am bookmarking the doom and gloom threads for mockery at a later date, however.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)From what I heard re the news It said he is not exonerated but there is not enough evidence to prosecute. Anyway if it does say that we know that is bs. Hopefully someone leaks the report or dems get it without most of it missing for some bogus reason. The disaster is mueller, rosenstein and barr are essentially doing nothing about this. Mueller punted this and is a coward, he could have done more. The other disaster is alot of the news are playing dump exonerating himself. And a lot of people are going to believe it. I just saw dana bash laughing about it with rudy g. They think this is funny😳
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)But there wasn't evidence of collusion. That's pretty damning because, after two years, you'd think there would be enough evidence to make a point.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)subpoena Mueller and the report. At the least he should have recommended prosecution for obstruction.
regnaD kciN
(27,640 posts)What it temporized on was whether there was enough to prosecute on obstruction. But, as DI points out, the obstruction case hinged on the notion that Trump fired Comey to keep him from uncovering collusion. If it turns out there was no collusion at all, how could Trump be obstructing justice by firing Comey? Lest he uncover a non-existent conspiracy?
What this comes down to is that we need to see the report. Not just the conclusions, but the findings of fact. If it turns out that Mueller uncovered a lot of evidence of coordination, but not enough to reach the "beyond a reasonable doubt" test to bring charges, that's one thing. If he reports that any evidence suggesting coordination was non-existent or the result of misinterpretation, that's another thing. But, until (if) we get the full report and can examine it, we only look like hyperpartisan idiots if we suggest anything other than that Trump is, de jure, "in the clear" on these matters, and thus deserving of the presumption of innocence we would insist on for anyone else.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Maybe I confused it with the statement about obstruction. Bottom line is we all know he is a criminal on so many levels. I don’t believe there is no evidence of collusions. It is still obstruction of justice I think whether he actually was guilty of a crime / collusion etc. I’m not concerned about appearing paritsan. That is partly what got us in this mess.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Walter Shaub
@waltshaub
1/ Thread: With Barr having delivered a bare bones summary of the Mueller report to Congress, let’s remember that what we already knew about Trump is so terrible that any other president would have been impeached and removed from office.
he goes on to list all the shit (its a long thread) trump can be impeached for right now. as i said at the time, pelosi has erred in not getting the ball rolling on impeachment.
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)Just yesterday, I read a story about they're selling shitty merchandise with the White House on it at his hotels. They're profiting off him being president which is, of course, illegal.
But nobody does a fucking thing about it for some reason. 
inwiththenew
(997 posts)I see people trying to spin it but Trump is going to take a two to three month victory lap on this. Hell he'll be talking about this after he's left office. We probably just lost independents on this too as OP pointed because the MSM is running with the no evidence of collusion narrative. Any future investigation by Congress is going to look like the Hilary email investigation.
Terminally_Chill
(76 posts)again
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)'Again'.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2019, 06:22 PM - Edit history (1)
obliviously
(1,635 posts)it isn't quite like Beto making his wife eat baby poop and calling it an avocado. How do we catch up in a political atmosphere like this?
Initech
(108,783 posts) BlueStater
(7,596 posts)You realize his approval ratings are still in the toilet, right?
still_one
(98,883 posts)obstruction were left to the AG Barr. He made that decision, not Mueller.
This is neither a disaster or victory, it is a push
One thing for certain is because one person made this decision is why the full report needs to be made public, and the court of public opinion will decide
I do agree 100% with you that the Democrats should NOT over play their hand. Pelosi won't. She is way to savey for that. Which is another reason why you don't have an amateur as speaker. Thank goodness she is in charge.
While I think most Congressional Democrats are prudent, in my view there are some freshman Democratic Representatives who are over-playing the hand. Coming out with, "we are going to impeach the MF", and the like, does not do us any favors.
The full report needs to be made available regardless, and let the court of public opinion make its judgement
At least that is how I view it, and not this isn't a disaster.
Perhaps you are unaware, but regardless, of the puffing up about the economy, things are not doing swimmingly well. Much of that due to the tariffs, and trade war policies. There are a lot of other issues that this administration has messed up big time, both internationally with our allies, and economically, especially with the stupid tax bill, which I believe is going to hurt them in 2020, among middle class independents
Time will tell
Turbineguy
(40,077 posts)where it was before.
Trump will work hard to be as disgusting and despicable as possible. Republicans will still try and steal the election. Russians will help them. Everything continues as before.
still_one
(98,883 posts)starting to have an adverse effect, I think this is going to come back and haunt them.
andym
(6,066 posts)By drawing suspicion on himself with his actions (firing Comey), he invited an investigation that he knew would exonerate him (although I don't think he was smart enough to realize this at first). He then repeatedly called it a witch hunt. He can now use the Mueller investigation as political ammunition to offset other suspicions of wrongdoing, which are probably true crimes or unethical behavior like the Trump Foundation's corrupt behavior. The Russians never really needed the Trump campaign's help to accomplish their mischief: hackers, Wikileaks and targeted social network manipulation were entirely within their power to carry out independently. However, the possibility of favorable relations with Russia in return for help with Trump's businesses (canceling of loans etc) would be the real problematic behaviors to look for. Why is Trump so palsy-walsy with Putin? The outstanding question remains, which crimes had he committed that required Comey's firing?
misanthrope
(9,495 posts)There's a big difference, like confusing "innocent" with "not guilty."
at140
(6,251 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2019, 07:32 PM - Edit history (2)
NY City in real estate business.
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)He probably wasn't certain he would skate this time. But there were undoubtedly numerous previous situations in which he let it play out and it worked in his favor, despite all the wrongdoing.
I probably understood the potential for this more than most because I saw examples so often in Las Vegas. The famed sports bettor Billy Walters is an absolute crook. He doesn't do anything without a manipulated advantage. I could provide one example after another dating to 1989. I know plenty but I'm sure sure I don't know a fraction of all Walters' wrong doings. The feds tried to nail Walters time and again and never succeeded, not because they weren't correct but because they couldn't prove it. Walters had so much money and influence he learned how to cover his tracks and surround himself with people who wouldn't squeal. Walters expanded into business and got shady land deals all over the place. I guarantee they were all crooked.
Fortunately Walters finally got nailed a couple of years ago on an insider trading charge. He was in absolute disbelief. His mistake was not understanding that the people who research stock transactions were a big step above the idiots who had no clue about sports wagering chicanery.
I can only hope that Trump meets similar fate at the end. All it takes is one. A ballot box defeat would sting most.
Socal31
(2,491 posts)bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)This is a marathon, not a sprint.
Fat lady hasn't showed up yet.
Bloviating Ignoramus
(2 posts)I respectfully beg to differ.
First of all we don't yet really know what Mueller found or didn't find. We just have Barr's cherry picked cliff notes. And we know that Barr believes the president is above the law. That especially applies to the obstruction part. So no I don't think Democrats are overplaying at all. They are demanding the complete report from Mueller himself. Not the bastardized version of a partisan hack.
As for Mueller himself being above reproach, it's like so many things in life, he is, until he isn't. I would seriously question why he didn't subpoena Trump and capitulated to Rudy Giuliani and accepted Giuliani's terms of obstruction off the table.
And what of all the co-operating witnesses who copped lenient sentences? What were they co-operating on? And all the court filings with page after page redacted, suggesting ongoing investigtions. I'm not convinced that Mueller was not told to wrap it up or it will be wrapped up for him.
Collusion is and always was just the tip of the iceberg. The real question always was and still is ... why did Putin want Donald Trump to be president so badly? Bannon raised the issue of money laundering and that has yet to scratch the surface. Anyone who sees that as a witch hunt in all likelihood was saying that from the outset. And anyone that would vote for a twice admitted scammer who does not take the presidency seriously and believes the country serves him and not the other way around, just to teach Democrats a lesson is a blithering idiot
So yeah by all means concentrate on constructive issues, healthcare, income inequality, climate change. Don't go all in on impeachment, but a simple "nothing is off the table" would have sufficed from Pelosi.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)
Doremus
(7,273 posts)