All 9 people injured in shooting near NY's Empire State Building were wounded by police gunfire

[The Straight Story]

"Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/new-york-empire-state/index.html

[Jackpine Radical]

1. A terrible tragedy. I can't fault the police here.

It could have been much worse if they hadn't acted as they did.

[sarisataka]

37. Are you sure...

the shooter had one target who he had already killed and was walking away.

I fault the training more than the individual officers, but they should be held to the same standards as civilians who carry. If they hit others rather than the criminal they should be held accountable to the same degree.

[WinkyDink]

50. I have a feeling the legal system will disagree with you.

[DeSwiss]

55. Or not. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

58. This is one where I could easily be wrong.

I didn't--and still don't, really--have full details on the incident.

[FarCenter]

2. The NY Police amaze me by the number of shots fired and the few times the target is hit

Apparently they only have to qualify once a year. It's unclear whether they are required to practice regularly with their sidearms.

[Grave Grumbler]

4. One problem is the "New York trigger" that NYC police have on their handguns.

A 12 pound trigger pull is not conducive to accuracy.

[kelly1mm]

10. exactly. +1

[RC]

44. 12 pound pull?

A normal pull is be half that. The intended target was supposedly only 10 feet away. No wonder they had trouble hitting him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Go to the FBI and check national statistics

They ate not outliers.

[RagAss]

6. They train with "aimed" shooting and under stress resort to point shooting......which is natural....

training should emphasize point shooting for close quarters encounters. Often the first time someone uses point shooting is during a real life encounter like this was. Tactical situations will of course still require aimed training fire.

[FarCenter]

16. This video appears to show that the police had time for aimed fire

Here's The Moment The Empire State Building Shooter Pulled A Gun On Police And Got Shot

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/empire-state-shooter-police-2012-8

[RagAss]

17. They may have had time - but they lost the finite motor skills to do so...

Adrenaline will do that....perhaps this incident will help them to look at new training methods.

[kelly1mm]

9. NYPD issues weapons with a 12 lbs trigger pull. The recommended trigger pull and most other agencies

use weapons with 4-7 lbs trigger pull. That high of a trigger pull helps against accidental discharge but strains most shooters ability and results in a shift of the muzzle away from the target.

[X_Digger]

38. They overcome one training deficit (NDs) by introducing a feature that makes them less accurate.

*sigh* I bet someone ran the numbers and figured it was cheaper to pay out for misses compared to additional training to prevent negligent discharges (NDs).

[Poll_Blind]

20. I watched the video and they appear to fire those shots in an extremely short period of time.

Which would be something like pulling the trigger as fast as you possibly can. Having done this exact thing at the end of dozens of shooting sessions at a firing range (no time left, still have a clip or two worth of ammo), anything after the first or second bullet is going to be a wild shot. I've had paper targets at almost that same distance (as the shooter was to the policemen) and fired off a clip that quick (.40 automatic, full frame) and regularly only had one or two bullets actually hit the target. Once, with the target at about 10 feet or so, I fired 10 rounds and only one of them hit the target and that was a clip on the far edge.

IMO, it's hard enough to actually hit anything with a pistol when you're taking your time in the structured environment of a gun range.

Just a nightmare to imagine that many bullets flying around on an open street with hundreds of people. Really scary.

BTW, I don't mean to imply the police did something wrong...per se. The video is pretty clear that the shooter draws on the police. That's just a lot of bullets and I'd be surprised if training formally supports using the weapons like that. There's a huge difference between pulling the trigger as fast as you can and even taking a half-second to aim between shots.

PB

[2pooped2pop]

52. they've been spending all their training hours on pepper spraying

techniques it would seem.

[lpbk2713]

3. The gang that couldn't shoot straight.

Just like chimps at typewriters. Throw enough lead in the
air and you're bound to hit the right thing sooner or later.

[Logical]

7. I hope these people sue and get money to cover their injury.

[otohara]

13. Imagine If Bystanders Had Guns A Blazing

how many more folks would be in NYC hospitals.

This is their argument - more people with guns out in public is a good thing, or is it.
And who would they sue?

[treestar]

8. Big training issue

A cop should be a good shot. It's only practical. Though I've heard they rarely end up firing and can get through a whole career without firing. Still, since it might have to be done, no reason they should not practice every day.

[mythology]

11. If the cops can't shoot straight

doesn't that indicate random people who may or may not have any actual firearms training would be at best ill-equipped to use a firearm to prevent crime?

[RagAss]

15. The majority of folks who carry handguns have no training at all....

I live in Florida - the CCW requirements are a joke. I know at least 15 people who carry that I would under no cirumstances even shoot next to at the range.

[CrispyQ]

18. That's the scariest post I've read in awhile.

Yikes.

After the Aurora shooting a few weeks ago, I looked at my fellow bus riders & wondered, "Who is carrying & are they competent, both mentally & with use of the gun?"

[cali]

25. In Vermont anyone can conceal carry no permit needed

and it's been that way forever. we don't have a lot of gun violence.

[X_Digger]

39. Not quite.

Almost all states (including Florida) require a pistol class, which includes shooting, safe handling, and safe storage. Many states require a live fire exercise as part of the license qualification.

[Grave Grumbler]

12. If someone carrying concealed had injured 9 bystanders,

how many of those defending the police would do the same for a civilian shooter in this situation?

(Just for the record, this is not an attack on the police in question)

[aquart]

34. I would want to kill the concealed carry self-important moron.

The last thing we need in New York are gunslingers.

[summerschild]

14. I just hope the "If only someone carrying had been in that crowd" folks

notice that even highly trained law enforcement officers cannot guarantee they won't hit bystanders.

"Wyatt Earp-wanna-be's" probably aren't.

[Lizzie Poppet]

22. "highly trained law enforcement officers"

A whole lot of cops fire their weapons about once a year (for their annual qualification). Many civilians (those who are actual shooting enthusiasts) put in many times the hours at the range than the average cop. The police, in general, are not expert shooters.

[obamanut2012]

23. It's because they AREN'T highly trained

The "secret" is that most LEOs aren't all that skilled with firearms. Many departments have NO qualifying standards or training after the initial qualification. I have 10+-year cops in my own family that haven't fired a sidearm in over a decade. They go hunting with long guns. I have a cousin who shoots about 200 rds. once a month, but he is unusual.

I shoot one to three times a month, as many rounds as I can afford, because I believe if you have a pistol and a CCW, you should stay trained. I have also had training in both aimed and point shooting, and bet good money I am better trained with a pistol and a better shot than many, if not most, LEOs out there.

This doesn't surprise me at all. If a civilian did that, we would be arrested and charged with a felony.

[summerschild]

29. You probably are better trained and a better shot.

My statement probably generalized too much regarding police training. Perhaps more should be required for them.

If all CCWs were as diligent as you, I guess that concern wouldn't loom. My guess is that most are not, and even you would be nervous if you found yourself in a situation where you weren't the defending civilian doing the shooting in a crowd.

[FarCenter]

35. Police on foot patrol should probably carry weapons with longer barrels and sighting planes

HK UMP, for example. Similar weapons are more commonly carried in other countries.

[Egalitarian Thug]

41. "Highly trained" is exactly what police are not. NYPD is toward the bottom end of the scale, but

no city cops are even close to what can be accurately described as highly trained.

[woo me with science]

43. Yet increasingly armed like the military. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

45. The sheeple like to be told comforting lies so they don't have to think about unpleasant things,

like being "protected" by a bunch of untrained thugs running around with automatic weapons and a license to kill. Does NYPD still issue .38 wheel guns?

Never mind, I looked it up.

[dixiegrrrrl]

19. apparently the shooter got ONE person, cops did the rest of the damage

Wonder how many lawsuits for medical costs and damages there will be?

[baldguy]

21. Just imagine if there were 20 people shooting at the guy, instead of only two.

[obamanut2012]

24. If they weren't cops, odds are they woulod have done betetr

LEOs are notoriously bad shots because they are so undertrained in firearms.

Like any hand-eye skill, you have to train in shooting, including offensive and defensive shooting, and aimed and pointed firing. If you don't train,then your sidearm should be taken away, and I include cops and military in that statement.

[baldguy]

26. Yeah, you keep promoting the RW talking points.

And people keep getting killed.

[obamanut2012]

30. Except I'm far from a RWer, as people on here know

And, stating the truth isn't a RW talking point. Police are notoriously bad shots and bad at gun safety. They suck, because they don;t get training and have little o no accountability.

[baldguy]

40. The TRUTH is those cops did better than the majority of people would have in the same situation.

And the average person would have done a whole lot worse. And you want the average person to be able to carry a gun. Which is simply nothing but a recipe for disaster.

And your blanket condemnation of ALL police EVERYWHERE is a RW talking point. It's the same old & tired - and tiresome - lie that public servants can't do anything right, ever. Stop demeaning yourself and stop making the rest of us put up with the pretense that it isn't.

Is the average cop a worse shot than the average gun fetishist? I'll concede that - because for cops, a gun is merely a tool for the job. It's not something to be worshiped.

[Egalitarian Thug]

42. I think you've confused right-wing with dirty fucking hippie.

Don't make them send you back to remedial stereotyping.

[baldguy]

46. .

Twist it like a Republican.

You know, I've never heard a "dirty fucking hippie" describe themselves as such. And guns weren't generally a problem during the Occupy protests, either. As you well know, it's the RW that's contemptuous of any and all forms of public service. And it's the RW that's most contemptuous of any and all forms of gun control as well. This is what I've been criticizing to the mis-named poster above.

[Egalitarian Thug]

48. It's the DFH's that traditionally hate the cops. The reich-wingers love cops and eagerly

genuflect and offer up their children and women on the altar of "Law and Order". The Thin Blue Line that stands between us and the complete chaos of the Mad Max, Red Dawn fantasies are RW myths.

Personally, I've always had better luck dealing with criminals than with LEO's. The criminals can be honestly dealt with and are generally more accepting of the deal and the consequences of breaking it. They can be trusted to act in their own best interests, and as such, one can pretty well ensure compliance through careful planning. Cops OTOH can't be trusted at all.

[Paladin]

27. Prove It. (nt)

[obamanut2012]

31. I know I am a better shot than 27 police officers

Including a SWAT captain.

Why? Because I make sure I regularly train and also adhere to proper gun safety. Unlike what the majority of LEOs are made to do. Generally because of budgets, so they have to use their own time and money, and most won;t do that.

[CreekDog]

36. More guns won't make us safer

If you could assure that they were fired by robots or marksmen, then, yes -but that's not the option. More guns mean more guns at the lowest common denominator.

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. And they were what, 8 feet from the guy?

Read with interest the above posts about types of training and the heavy trigger. Thanks to all who contributed - that was interesting. I hope NYPD makes the appropriate adjustments.

[obamanut2012]

32. The reason most law enforcement agaencies won't

As per what I have been told by actual LEOS:

1. budget -- no money for the rounds, training, range time, etc. Most cops are expected to do it on their own if they want to, like teachers have to buy supplies.

2. time -- there is no time to do this on regular sgifts, and making it means paying OT. See #1.

3. no requirement -- they don't have to do it, so why should they?

I am not slamming them too much for any of this, because of TPTB don't care, that attitude trickles down to th4 employees. It's a shame, not only for others' safety, but their own. They could get shot before they are able to properly return fire.

One of my uncles gets my cousin to clean his gun, because he doesn't know how to strip it down properly. A cop for 27 years.

[Ruby the Liberal]

47. Lovely.

People like you and I are required to complete x hours of CE every 12-24 months. Is it too much to ask that LEO is required to have ongoing WEAPONS training/practice? Especially when the weapons used may not be all that "used" in the line of duty...

And on edit - I have never fired a weapon in my life, but I like to think that I could drop a target that wasn't but 8 feet from me without wounding 9 people NOT in my line of fire in the process. That video is really damning.

[X_Digger]

54. For a real test, you'd have to have someone shoot a gun behind you without telling you..

.. when they were going to (or that they even *were* going to), then turn around and see how you shoot.

Adrenaline dump, heart rate explodes, hands start to shake, loss of fine motor control, you're hyperventilating, tunnel vision closes down what you see, and your perception of the flow of time starts going wonky.

If you've ever had a close call in a car, or almost been ran down as a pedestrian- it's *that* kind of reaction that you'd want to elicit before comparing oneself to cops in a shootout.

The solution? Muscle memory- training, training, training. It can't completely ameliorate the physical effects of stress, but muscle memory (and we're talking 1,500 - 2,000 repetitions here) will likely cut down on the misses. Why? It will be.. not instinctual, but maybe reflexive to get into the position most likely to result in hitting the target (and therefore lowering the chance of a miss).

I looked at the video someone else posted of the shootout- the officer on the left almost stumbles over his own feet, shooting flat-footed and on one foot it appears, and never gets a good shooting stance- that's where muscle memory would help. The officer on the right (from the video's perspective) keeps his feet, gets a good stable crouch, but he overextends his arm. Training would definitely help both officers.

And here's the sad thing. It's not super expensive, SWAT-like "tactical" training they need. Just shooting more frequently at the police range would be a good start. Make that shooting stance and arm position reflexive. *Then* work on shooting while moving. Get the fundamentals down first.

[Ruby the Liberal]

56. Exactly.

Dude was in spitting range, they unloaded both weapons and 9 people (not in target) were wounded.

Training at a bare minimum and thank God the streets weren't full of additional untrained CCW there to "help".

[X_Digger]

57. Here's the thing though..

Most people who have a CCW license (outside of places like NYC that only grant them to celebrities and politicians) train far more than most police do.

And the numbers bear it out. There are about 700k police officers in the nation, and about 7 million CCW holders. It's quite rare to hear of a CCW holder missing and shooting a bystander.

To be fair to the police, they're more likely to encounter a mean stack of paperwork, or have to deal with a drunk driver than participate in a shootout. It's something the average officer might encounter once in his or her career.

eta: double negative corrected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. That is why my local cops have to go to the range

every so often and recert, goes double for SWAT.

As to your uncle... he does not know how to clean his own GUN? Small department, rural at that, must be. I know more than one cop, and they not only go to the range REGULARLY, but they know how to clean and care for their guns.

Damn it, for the generalizations. Now if you told me that his squad car is falling apart, yup, pretty much... that is what budget constraints have done. You told me he is chasing the radio, sure I believe you, since yup it is happening in this town. But fire arms training is still pretty much mandatory, and this town is the lowest paid urban PD in the state.

[aquart]

33. Oy.

I understand it. But now they have to look at ways to avoid this outcome.

[WinkyDink]

49. Oh, there are lawsuits a-coming!

[laundry_queen]

51. For all those 'they are terrible shots' people on this thread

On Canadian Tv they said most people that were injured were injured with bullets that had ricocheted off of the planters, or from fragments that had bounced off of other things. So they may have been better shots than it seems...bullets may have went through the targeted guy or *just* missed him and hit a light pole or planter behind him and bounced off and hit people.

BTW...whoever said cops don't have much training with shooting is right - SIL said that their training with guns and self-defense was pretty crappy...a lot less training than she expected when she got hired (not NYC BTW)

[justanidea]

53. There are two main problems.

1. The horrible 12lb trigger that is installed in the NYPD Glocks.

2. The fact that most cops aren't very good shots simply because they don't practice. Most aren't "gun people" and have no interest in target shooting. They view it as a chore, rather than a hobby. As a result, cops end up rarely practicing their skills. Most gun enthusiasts on the other hand love shooting (that's why they're gun enthusiasts in the first place!) and as a result, they love to go practice regularly.


Point #2 probably explains why I outshoot 99% of the cops that visit my local range.