21 years in prison for 77 murders.

[11 Bravo]

Anders Brevik will spend the next 21 years in a three-cell suite of rooms furnished with a TV, laptop, and exercise equipment. That comes to less than 4 months per victim.
Putting aside your feelings about the death penalty, what do you think of his punishment?

[dsc]

1. that isn't quite accurate

he actually got an indefinite term of prison that is at least 21 years. If he is ruled still a danger after 21 years, and presumedely he will be, he will stay in prison. He got a life sentence.

[lunatica]

2. I don't see a problem with that

What I find reprehensible is the overcrowded and inhumane way we treat prisoners and the fact that we do nothing to rehabilitate them so that when they do come out they're even more hardened and vicious. What do we get out of making sure they're lives are as full of misery as is possible? It's more than enough to make sure they're away from society. What do we, as a society gain by being vicious to criminals who are locked away?

[arely staircase]

12. though bad, not as bad as gunning down 77 kids

eom

[lunatica]

13. So you think society should commit a crime against the criminals who are crazy psychopaths?

[arely staircase]

16. no

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[gopiscrap]

30. I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!

[Demonaut]

45. true, he'll be unable to hold a gun or shoot straight a the the ripe old age of 53

seriously!?

[ZombieHorde]

3. I don't think prisons should be used to punish people.

I think prisons should be used to keep very dangerous people away from the rest of us.

I am not a Christian, but I do like Jesus' idea that we should be nice to prisoners.

[backscatter712]

11. I think you're exactly right.

Prisons in general are used for three purposes: Punishment, isolation and rehabilitation.

Punishment of criminals has never been very effective. Making their lives super-spartan is a punishment, maybe well-deserved, but again, not much of a deterrent. More effective is the taking away of his freedom - Brevik is imprisoned, and even with every luxury in the world, he is still in prison, that's plenty of a punishment right there. I think almost everyone here agrees intellectually, even if the emotional side demands blood-soaked revenge, that the death penalty takes things way too far.

Isolation is a legitimate reason to lock Brevik up - when he's in that prison, he can't be out in society shooting people, can he? I'm for him being in prison for that reason. His conditions are irrelevant - the Norwegians value being humane to prisoners - that's cool. If he's playing video games or watching TV or working out in his cell, that's no skin off everyone else's back as long as he's locked up. And hey, such toys are useful when made into revocable privileges, so if he acts out or gets difficult with the guards, they can take his toys away - good for encouraging him to behave.

And finally, there's rehabilitation. My biggest gripe with the prison system in the US is that with the exception of a little lip-service, there is almost no attempts to rehabilitate anyone who's in the justice system. We're obsessed with punishing criminals, which again, doesn't work - doesn't act as a good deterrent, so all we're doing is making criminals miserable, thus resentful, depriving them of means to regain legitimacy to rejoin society, so they do what they feel they must do - become "better" more vicious criminals.

Personally, I think Brevik's crimes are so severe and vicious that I'm writing him off - I don't think he can be rehabilitated, therefore that leaves isolation to be the single and best reason to keep him locked up for the rest of his life. If he gets some toys in his cell, that's fine by me. I don't care, as long as he never breathes free air again.

For other criminals, who have committed less serious crimes, I think we need to be working far more on rehabilitation.

[NightWatcher]

4. he'll die of old age in prison, in 21 years they'll "re-evaluate". I dont see him getting better

and yes, it's much better than the death penalty

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. He will never get out.

That sentence can be extended in 5-10 year increments if he is still considered a danger to society. Which he almost certainly will be. Norway's presumptive maximum sentence of 21 years will not be his actual sentence.

And I don't care if he's comfortable. If you've ever seen the inside of any prison, even a "nice" one, you'd know you don't want to be there. Retaliatory punishment is kind of meaningless in this case - even if Norway had the death penalty they couldn't execute him 77 times. Seems to me the important thing is that he's locked up where he can't do any more damage. He has no internet access and all his mail is monitored, so he can't even communicate with similarly minded dirtbags.

Norway has a far more sane criminal justice system than we do, IMO.

[whatchamacallit]

6. It chafes a bit, but it's better than

the approach taken by the US aka the Prison Industrial Complex.

[Egalitarian Thug]

7. Civilized nations recognize that revenge has no place in a justice system.

And your subject line is misleading.

[backscatter712]

8. The judge did throw the book at him.

Under Norwegian law, that's the maximum sentence.

And I don't doubt that his sentence will be extended repeatedly, probably for the rest of his life, certainly until he's old and gray and has nothing left to do with his life but spend a pension check on Preparation H.

[Ellipsis]

9. It doesn't really matter what we think... the victim's survivors are satisfied.

At least the ones I heard on the radio were. Incarcerating someone and putting them in environment where they go crazy is fucked up. Sane and lonely thats a fair deal.


With the mitigating circumstances he will never be released. They have laws on the books to adjust his sentence for life after the 21 years.

[11 Bravo]

10. That to me is perhaps the most astounding thing about the entire episode.

To hear the father of a murdered daughter simply state that, "Now we won't hear from him for quite a while and we can have peace and quiet", or to hear a wounded survivor opine that, "If at the end of 21 years he is deemed not to be dangerous anymore, then he should be released", bespeaks a grace and a generosity of spirit that I don't believe I could ever hope to possess.

[Logical]

14. You didnt read the story did you? Read more. Get back to us.

[Posteritatis]

19. It's kinda appalling how many people are just kneejerking at the "short" sentence...

...without actually reading any of the thousands of articles about Nowegian law that all state that a sentence of confinement is not just that.

But no, I suppose people need to get their Nancy Grace froth on instead...

[11 Bravo]

21. 1. Yes I did. 2. There's nothing more to read. 3. Why would I conceivably want to get back to you?

Breivik was sentenced to 21 years in prison. That is a statement of incontrovertible fact. His sentence may be increased in five-year increments, however that is by no means a certainty.
But thanks for playing.

[Logical]

23. LOL, now you look silly......

You said "Anders Brevik will spend the next 21 years".

You have no fucking idea how long he will spend in jail. Because you didn't read the story before you posted. You could of easily posted ONE DAMN SENTENCE about the 5 year extensions. And you know it.

I love people who create drama out of nothing.

[11 Bravo]

25. Oh, shit, I surrender! You "LOL'd" me. Who can stand up to that degree of incisive wit?

"You said 'Anders Brevik will spend the next 21 years'," Yes, I did. And that is an indisputable fact.
"You have no fucking idea how long he will spend in jail." Yeah, I do. He will, without a doubt, spend the next 21 fucking years in fucking jail. You, on the other hand, have no fucking idea whether or not any five year extensions will be imposed.
"I love people who create drama out of nothing." Self-awareness ain't your strong suit, is it?

[Logical]

36. LOL, LOL, LOL, everyone called you out. So I guess you were wrong. n-t

[Ellipsis]

42. He/she is provoking conversation not a position. It's all good. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

15. I find the sentence to be emblematic of an evolved society.

In that 3 room suite with an internet connection he will go mad only slightly more slowly than if he were in a single cell.

His sentence was essentially for life. He must serve at least that 21 years and then he gets reviewed. No unlike parole, he has to be found no longer a threat to society. In actual fact, his sentence, apart from the nature of the prison, is not unlike that of Charles Manson.

For the record, I oppose the death penalty in any circumstances.

[LAGC]

33. He doesn't get Internet access. That's been widely mis-reported by right-wing blogs.

He gets a laptop, but no connectivity to the outside world.

He can write a diary, but that's about it.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. That means he goes mad slightly more quickly.

[moondust]

17. Don't know what will happen in 21 years.

They could continue giving him 5-year sentences until death.

Or, I suppose some weak-kneed judges could let him go in 21 years.

Or, he could get cancer and be set free for humane reasons at any time.

Remember the case of al-Megrahi in Scotland?


One potential problem is that the Norweigians apparently don't have much experience with serious criminals and may therefore tend to show leniency if a serious criminal puts on a good rehabilitation act.

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. In the US, you get 21 years in prison for 77 grams.

[hifiguy]

20. He will never get out of a lockup of some sort.

And prison is still prison. Under Norwegian law, he can be kept in the clink if he's still considered dangerous after 21 years.

Charlie Manson ain't getting out anytime soon either, though he's technically eligible for parole every few years.

[Quantess]

22. We have a resident Norwegian citizen at the DU

He is certain Breivik will be locked up the rest of his life. So, it sounds like your assertion is not accurate, given that Norway operates a little differently than in the US.

[KitSileya]

44. More than one Norwegian here, actually.

And I am also certain that he will be locked up for the rest of his life.

Since the high school I teach at also is responsible for the education of the prisoners in our regional prisons, I value the corrective element of the Norwegian prison system more than most - as I see prisoners finally achieve a high school diploma, and craft certificates as plumbers, carpenters, chefs and what have you, I know there's a better chance they will manage to right their lives. But do not think us Norwegians stupid! We know that some will never be rehabilitated, and have mechanisms in place for those cases. We just think society will benefit more if prisoners are not destroyed mentally by their time in prison, as so many American prisoners are, with your horrific conditions, and downright torture of prisoners (what is prison rape but torture?) I am just glad that so many agree with me on this here on DU.

[Quantess]

47. Hej. Yes, now that I think about it,

I can remember 2 other active DUer Norwegians who live in Norway, and one who may or may not currently live in Norway.
I currently live in Sweden but unfortunately the only other swedish DUer that I am aware of was recently banned.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. 21 years is the maximum sentence allowed under Norwegian law.

But in Breivik's case it will mean "life".

The indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment. If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

[Speck Tater]

26. Do you want vengeance, justice, or rehabilitation?

Pick one, and then the answer will be self-evident.

Vengeance says eviscerate the bastard.
Justice say lock him up forever.
Rehabilitation, if it were possible, would aim to turn him into a useful member of society.

I don't think we have the psychological know-how for rehabilitation, so we will have to settle for justice or vengeance. Reader's choice.

[LeftishBrit]

27. In fact he will probably be in prison for the rest of his life.

21 years is the maximum sentence they can give, but after that he can be detained further if he is judged to pose a continuing danger to society. I assume that he would be thus judged.

[RandiFan1290]

28. I trust Norway knows how to handle this.

I am not concerned.

[Nye Bevan]

29. If he is a model prisoner for the 21 years, it may be hard to prove that he still poses a danger

to society.

Norway should really allow longer sentences for exceptional crimes like this, to remove any doubt. (I do oppose the death penalty BTW).

[joeybee12]

31. Since Norway is a much safer country than the USA

I doubt what we think is relevant since their justice system apparently works better than ours. It's not based on some outdated Biblical idea of retribution.

[Live and Learn]

32. I'm fine with it.

No amount of punishment will bring back the victims. The guy obviously has problems that should be addressed and perhaps we can learn something from. Killing him would prevent us from learning anything and makes society killers too.

As far as your complaint regarding his comfort, I don't see placing people in extreme discomfort as a humane thing to do. He has lost his freedom. That alone is a terrible thing but is necessary to protect society. I doubt you would want to trade places with him just for the free care.

[zuzu98]

34. as a career public defender and opponent of the death penalty, i just want to say

thank you to everyone on this thread for your thoughtful responses rather than rising to the bait of the OP. It can be so disheartening to constantly read and hear the simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key" or, worse, "fire up 'Old Sparky'" type comments whenever there is a discussion about crime. Some people, like Brevik, do need to be separated from society but many, many people in the United States are incarcerated for drug crimes and other non-violent offenses and our current "justice system" (sic) perpetuates more problems than it solves.

[ellisonz]

35. +1000

[PDJane]

37. I live in a country without the death penalty, and I approve of the rooms and the sentence.

Last edited Sun Aug 26, 2012, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

You see, while we don't have the death penalty, our system of confinement is no more generous than the US.

The cell that holds Paul Bernardo, for instance. He will live out his entire life in a cell the size of a walk in closet. My galley kitchen is larger than his cell, and inside that cell is a bunk, a desk, and a toilet. The cells are closed in not only with bars, but with plexiglass. It's a stupid and cruel thing to do to people, no matter how evil they are. Think of living in that cage, 24 hours per day, no exercise, a rare shower, nothing to divert your attention, for years at a time. Bernardo is serving 'at her majesty's pleasure' ....which basically means that her majesty forgets about you and someone throws away the key.

It's a vicious, demeaning, and ultimately evil treatment; men and women incarcerated this way have no chance to get better at all. Putting them in this kind of cage is crueller than anything I can imagine, and will ultimately drive these people even further into madness.

It is, ultimately, as evil as the deeds that got these people there in the first place.

[yardwork]

38. It's interesting that Norway has so few people in jail they can afford to treat prisoners decently.

First, as many others have pointed out, you may have misunderstood the sentence. He will likely spend the rest of his life in prison, safely contained, unable to kill anybody else.

Second, think about this for a minute. Norway has a much lower crime rate than we do, and a much lower percentage of people in prison. Because of this, the country can afford to treat their few imprisoned with some decency. Isn't that better than our situation, where we have so many people in prison for drug crimes and other non-violent crimes, and we treat them all terribly?

I think that the Norwegian system is better than ours. Their crime rate seems to indicate success.

[LadyHawkAZ]

40. I think every Norwegian that's spoken up about it

has shown faith in their system, so I probably should too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Gee, I wonder how long Bradley Manning's sentence will be for whistleblowing.

[NYC Liberal]

46. I had the same thought as you, HOWEVER...

I read more and he will spend the rest of his life in prison. He can be held longer after 21 years if he is deemed to be a danger to society at that point, and I have little doubt he will be.