Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 08:07 PM Aug 2012

Lid blowing off Romney tax secrecy

Lid blowing off Romney tax secrecy

by Kenneth Thomas

Gawker (via Eman at Daily Kos) dropped a bombshell Thursday when it released over 950 pages of confidential documents from 21 Bain Capital-related investment vehicles, all of which Mitt or Ann Romney invested in. It made all 48 documents into a single searchable one here so that others could take a look and see what nuggets it might contain.

Romney previously claimed that his Cayman Island funds had to be located there in order to attract foreign investors, who invested via the Caymans so they would not be subject to U.S. taxes on their earnings, and that he did not reduce his tax bill as a result of his Cayman holdings. The newly released documents confirm that among these 21 funds, two set up a total of five so-called "blocker corporations" which allow U.S. non-profit entities to legally pretend to be foreign (i.e., Cayman) corporations in order to avoid the 35% "unrelated business income tax, which was created to prevent nonprofit groups from undertaking profit-making ventures that compete with taxpaying companies," as the New York Times reports. The still-unanswered question is whether Romney's huge 401-k, valued between $20 million and $102 million on financial disclosure forms, is one of the entities that invested in a blocker corporation, which would then refute Romney's assertion that his Cayman investments had not reduced his tax.

The two Bain funds with blocker corporations are Bain Capital Asia Fund LP (mentioned in the Times article; 3blockers) and Bain Capital IX Coinvestment Fund (2 blockers).

A second issue that has been raised is that various Bain entities converted management fees to carried interest (via Ryan Grim). While people know that the carried interest loophole (which makes management compensation into capital gains) exists and is legal, the issue raised by Professor Victor Fleischer of University of Colorado Law School is that private equity firms have come up with a way to make fees that are unarguably management fees subject to ordinary income (35% tax) into capital gains (15% tax) by "waiving" the fees in exchange for virtually certain future profit, so that the extremely slight economic risk is disproportionately small compared to the tax gain. Fleischer argues that this is flat out illegal and concludes: "Mitt Romney has not paid all the taxes required under law." Not all experts agree. We can look forward to more argument on this issue in coming days. Even if it is legal, it is morally even less defensible than the carried interest loophole.

In the end, we are still left with the fact that the tax system for the 1% is different from that for the rest of us. Whether Romney releases more tax returns or not, that issue is not going away. And the drip, drip, drip of new information makes me think he will eventually cave in.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/25/1124179/-Lid-blowing-off-Romney-tax-secrecy


Gawker Posts 950 Pages Of Bain Documents (updated 2x)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021186310

“If challenged in court, Bain would lose."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021189869


55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Lid blowing off Romney tax secrecy (Original Post) ProSense Aug 2012 OP
Truth will out malaise Aug 2012 #1
May the Light of public exposure a geek named Bob Aug 2012 #2
Amen! davekriss Aug 2012 #15
Usually, I'm not a Fire and Brimstone kind of guy a geek named Bob Aug 2012 #17
In this case truebluegreen Aug 2012 #23
and I was SO a geek named Bob Aug 2012 #26
Napalm and agent orange would be better. xtraxritical Aug 2012 #31
didn't CNN say there was nothing to this? arely staircase Aug 2012 #3
Yes, they sure got the scoop on that story, didn't they? The Claptrap News Network. freshwest Aug 2012 #20
I prefer Aerows Aug 2012 #28
That's better. freshwest Aug 2012 #34
:D Aerows Aug 2012 #49
Until this spoiled rich kid shows his tax returns rustydog Aug 2012 #4
Also, amen!! davekriss Aug 2012 #16
It would be truebluegreen Aug 2012 #24
Please let this become BIG NEWS!! gateley Aug 2012 #5
That would be great! red dog 1 Aug 2012 #43
I'd like to know who these "non profit entities" are who pretend to be foreign--Rove's Crossroads wordpix Aug 2012 #6
there we go k&r closeupready Aug 2012 #7
No wonder Ann Romney said if they release more tax returns we'll find illegalities. Auntie Bush Aug 2012 #8
I doubt she knows specifics but she knows enough to know... it will ruin her family CabCurious Aug 2012 #11
which may be why she didn't want him to run in the first place. firehorse Aug 2012 #18
yeah she knows no more about what the accountants put in her tax returns than arely staircase Aug 2012 #33
Ah, they're Mormon, that's his family, not hers. RC Aug 2012 #38
K&R n/t Tx4obama Aug 2012 #9
Never in my life have I wanted somebody to get in trouble so badly... CabCurious Aug 2012 #10
They're Still Gonna Try To Play Out The Clock... KharmaTrain Aug 2012 #12
Shouldn't that be 72 days and counting? red dog 1 Aug 2012 #44
And I believe the IRS has been going after those "blocker corporations" BlueStreak Aug 2012 #13
K & R !!! WillyT Aug 2012 #14
From Jay Bookman's blog: sad sally Aug 2012 #19
Thanks for the link. n/t ProSense Aug 2012 #25
+ 1 red dog 1 Aug 2012 #42
WOW! "Mitt Romney has not paid all the taxes required under law." n/t Coyotl Aug 2012 #21
The real kicker here... icarusxat Aug 2012 #22
He probably sleeps better than most people. Sociopaths don't usually bother with worthless... Kalidurga Aug 2012 #27
More Money for Mitt...so he can sit on Cha Aug 2012 #47
He is NOT avoiding truthinss! He is tblue37 Aug 2012 #53
Mitt Romney has not paid all the taxes required under law. CountAllVotes Aug 2012 #29
Right before the convention. R. Daneel Olivaw Aug 2012 #30
Repeatedly in Western history, we see this pattern. JDPriestly Aug 2012 #32
He must be so proud libodem Aug 2012 #35
Romney: ProSense Aug 2012 #36
.. Cha Aug 2012 #48
Even if all he did was legal, it should still be used to question his patriotism treestar Aug 2012 #37
Even more unpatriot standingtall Aug 2012 #40
Yes there's more than initially meets the eye!! Truth OUT! hue Aug 2012 #39
While I'm not tax/finance savvy, I am educated. And yet... Beartracks Aug 2012 #41
Thanks ProSense, thanks Gawker, thanks Eman at Daily Kos red dog 1 Aug 2012 #45
Second that, red dog 1 WCGreen Aug 2012 #46
Can't wait for it to hit the fan!!!!!!!! rury Aug 2012 #50
Is the media noticing this yet? get the red out Aug 2012 #51
let it blow, let it blow, let it blow.... spanone Aug 2012 #52
Kick! n/t ProSense Aug 2012 #54
Kick! n/t ProSense Aug 2012 #55
 

a geek named Bob

(2,715 posts)
17. Usually, I'm not a Fire and Brimstone kind of guy
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 09:59 PM
Aug 2012

But I'm about ready to lay down a great smiting, upon some unholy Conservatards...

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
3. didn't CNN say there was nothing to this?
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 08:34 PM
Aug 2012

is this about to be their follow-up to the ACA Supreme Court coverage?

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
4. Until this spoiled rich kid shows his tax returns
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 08:57 PM
Aug 2012

We can speculate just as wildly as Fox "News" personalities maintain Obama is foreign born, muslim until he proves otherwise

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
6. I'd like to know who these "non profit entities" are who pretend to be foreign--Rove's Crossroads
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 09:21 PM
Aug 2012

group, maybe?

Auntie Bush

(17,528 posts)
8. No wonder Ann Romney said if they release more tax returns we'll find illegalities.
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 09:39 PM
Aug 2012

She knows they cheated and it can be proved. LIARS!

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
33. yeah she knows no more about what the accountants put in her tax returns than
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 12:28 AM
Aug 2012

she knows about what mixture of sh*t her gardener(s) put in her flowerbeds. that's for "you people" to take care of.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
12. They're Still Gonna Try To Play Out The Clock...
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 09:48 PM
Aug 2012

The Rmoneys have stood this scrutiny before and figured that its worth the political risk to not disclose and try to make it look like their privacy is being invaded. I've long suspected Willard has army of well paid accountants who as a bookkeeper friend of mine likes to say "makes the money go away"...or to reduce taxes to next to nothing.

The mittens gamble here is to let his critics harp about taxes and hope the corporate media gets tired of the topic and thus not only will ignore it but discount anyone who brings up the topic. We shall see...with 85 days and counting. I'm willing to bet a bright shiny dime that Willard will never fully disclose ANY tax return and will come up with some excuse not to disclose his 2011 taxes after his extension expires on October 15th. The money means more than the power to them...they're hoping to hoodwink voters into "trusting" them. From where I come from when someone uses the word "trust" like that, it always means bullshit!

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
13. And I believe the IRS has been going after those "blocker corporations"
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 09:55 PM
Aug 2012

as the same kind of abusive shelter as Romney's "Son of Boss" scheme. This guy was apparently using every tax evasion scheme in the book.

sad sally

(2,627 posts)
19. From Jay Bookman's blog:
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 10:32 PM
Aug 2012

“Big business is doing fine in many places – they get the loans they need, they can deal with all the regulation. They know how to find ways to get through the tax code, save money by putting various things in the places where there are low tax havens around the world for their businesses.”
– Mitt Romney

And as we’re confirming through leaked internal Bain documents, Romney’s statement this week to a group of wealthy donors amounts to expert testimony. When it comes to “find(ing) ways to get through the tax code, sav(ing) money by putting various things in the places where there are low tax havens around the world,” such as Switzerland, Luxembourg and the Caymans, Romney knows his stuff.

Those leaked documents also have cast light on a highly controversial and perhaps illegal strategy used by Bain Capital to slash the tax burden of Romney and its other partners.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/08/25/romney-bain-dancing-at-outer-boundaries-of-tax-law/

icarusxat

(403 posts)
22. The real kicker here...
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 10:53 PM
Aug 2012

is that Mitt has probably stiffed his own church. God and loopholes? Buy into being legitimate and mainstream? Why do so many people have their fingers in their ears? What is that humming sound? Avoiding taxes is one thing, avoiding truthiness...? How do you sleep at night Mr. Mitt?

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
27. He probably sleeps better than most people. Sociopaths don't usually bother with worthless...
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 11:30 PM
Aug 2012

emotions like guilt.

Cha

(319,076 posts)
47. More Money for Mitt...so he can sit on
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 04:23 PM
Aug 2012

top of it and cackle like a maniac at his own greed.

Just so it isn't in our White House.

tblue37

(68,436 posts)
53. He is NOT avoiding truthinss! He is
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 08:53 PM
Aug 2012

deliberately creating (shoveling) truthiness (i.e., plausible sounding BS). What he is avoiding is truth, which is the opposite of truthiness.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
32. Repeatedly in Western history, we see this pattern.
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 12:21 AM
Aug 2012

In France, for example, prior to the French Revolution and even in the 14th century when France and England were emerging from the Middle Ages and struggling to establish their boundaries, peasants and the middle class revolted due to tax policies similar to those we see in the US and Europe now. The rich wanted war and the wealth and glory it brought to them but did not want to pay the taxes to cover the costs of the war. Oh, no. They pushed that burden on the poor and middle class.

On his deathbed, one of the French kings during the 14th century became worried that his violent enforcement of unfair taxes on the poor and middle classes would condemn him to eternity in hell. To avoid that fate, he issued an edict stating that the people would never again have to pay those taxes.

The Republicans claim to be Christian, but they don't seem worried about spending eternity in hell because of their horrible tax policies. I guess we can't expect to have fair taxes.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
35. He must be so proud
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 02:38 AM
Aug 2012

To be defrauding his county this way. Surely he would not want to invest in this government for the people by the people democracy thingie we got goin'on.

No he wants to pave the way to a Plutocracy where it's for the rich, by the rich, all the time. What do you think he went to France, for? To study the Aristocracy and how to win the revolution this time.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
37. Even if all he did was legal, it should still be used to question his patriotism
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 09:57 AM
Aug 2012

He wants to be President of this country. He should love it enough to prefer to pay taxes and keep his money here rather than do this stuff. Even if legal, it's still the choice he made.

standingtall

(3,148 posts)
40. Even more unpatriot
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 11:44 AM
Aug 2012

Is his admission that he helped foreign investors cheat the United States out of tax revenue.

Beartracks

(14,591 posts)
41. While I'm not tax/finance savvy, I am educated. And yet...
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 12:49 PM
Aug 2012

... the ins and outs of this explanation seem a bit impenetrable to me. The bulk of Romney supporters are going to hear this (if at all) like it's just a trumped up, meaningless, esoteric accusation. And even if they do get wind of it, they'll still be thinking, "What's the big deal? He made money, he did it legally, and he's going to do the same for me and the country. Yeee-hawww!!"

Well, that's my concern anyway. The true believers aren't going to see this for what it really is: greed, selfishness, and moral bankruptcy. Instead, they'll believe (and it will be reinforced by talk radio) that none of it matters. So even if the wheels fall off Romney's campaign car, he'll always have a rabid pit crew trying to keep it going.



=========================

red dog 1

(33,063 posts)
45. Thanks ProSense, thanks Gawker, thanks Eman at Daily Kos
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 03:32 PM
Aug 2012

This cheers me up. ...It will be interesting to see what if any of the mainstream media covers this.

get the red out

(14,031 posts)
51. Is the media noticing this yet?
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 07:07 PM
Aug 2012

Or is this just on various blogs? I am really hoping the media picks this up, but I've seen them ignore crap on the GOPers too many times.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Lid blowing off Romney ta...