"libertarianism"

[DirtEdonE]

I had the rather revolting experience of exchanging words with someone who considers themselves to be both a Democrat and a "libertarian" - two mutually exclusive terms, IMO, and in reality. I believe "libertarianism" is just another excuse for pure, unadulterated, repulsive, destructive human greed.

Think ayn rand and john galt. But with Democratic approval - as abhorrent as that specter may appear.

For those confused youngsters (age notwithstanding - you're a mental infant if you believe the "libertarian" crap) here are a few reasons you should reconsider your errors in judgment and humanity.

Four Reasons to Reject Libertarianism

1. Libertarian values are repellent

2. Libertarianism is intellectually myopic

3. Libertarianism is utopian

4. Libertarianism is politically hopeless

Read the rest and, for you "libertarians" - WAKE THE FUCK UP. This isn't a game anymore. If you're aligned with the type of greed repubicans represent then just call yourself what your really are, not a "libertarian" - an ayn rand repubican.

Get with the program already. We're DEMOCRATS. "libertarians" aren't.

IMO.


Read the rest.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/1/17/1055627/-

[Ohiogal]

1. I read a comment

many years ago .... "Libertarianism is like Republicans on steroids."

[DirtEdonE]

2. Yep. And yet today we have members here who identify as libertarian.

I spoke with one who lives in his mommy's basement but he's all for keeping all of his wealth - as soon as his parents die.

Typical libertarian.

[Wounded Bear]

5. I've used that one many times...

AFAIC, it's entirely true. In it's purest forms, libertarianism is anarchic and borderline nihilistic.

[DirtEdonE]

10. libertarianism, like republicanism, sounds more like a mental disease than anything else. nt

[TygrBright]

3. Libertarians believe no one lives downstream. WTF? n/t

[Bernardo de La Paz]

9. Wrong. Greedy objectivists don't care about downstream because they are not libertarians.

Many people conflate anarchists, objectivists, and libertarians all together. That is an error.

[DirtEdonE]

11. You seem to be a real defender of the "libertarian" cause

You're going to realize when and if you ever grow up that you live downstream from someone too.

We all do. Except for the ultimate greedy libertarians who get to the top. Like trump.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. tRump is not a libertarian or even an Objectivist. He is a gordito.

He is a stupid greedy man with no wisdom. That does not even qualify him as an Objectivist, let alone much else.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. You write: "if you ever grow up".

You write:

if you ever grow up

Do you impress many readers and win many arguments that way?


Post in total:

You seem to be a real defender of the "libertarian" cause

You're going to realize when and if you ever grow up that you live downstream from someone too.

We all do. Except for the ultimate greedy libertarians who get to the top. Like trump.

[DirtEdonE]

20. I seem to have struck a discord with your unflailing "libertarian" mental miasma

I believe people who fall for cheap economic tricks are rather "youthful" in their acceptance of whatever dogma they're being fed.

I was just commenting on the apparently "youthful" underdevelopment of their supposed economic theory.

In other words, I believe "libertarianism" is rooted in simple human greed and if simple human greed is all someone is about they should just be up front and say so instead of hiding behind some ridiculous patina of "libertarianism" as an excuse for their greed.

The saga of human improvement as a race is a saga of cooperation. If we lived by "libertarian" standards we'd still be living in caves.

Or basements.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. My "mental miasma", huh. And "discord" does not mean what you think it does. . . . nt

[DirtEdonE]

24. Bernardo de La Paz ...

Isn't that character like the lunar John Galt?

Yeah, he is.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

31. Nope. Not at all. Not one bit. . . . nt

[DirtEdonE]

38. Yep. He's the Lunar Bernardo de La Galt. Moonchild of ayn rand.

There is a basic fallacy in that lunar revolution story of your hero namesake. "libertarians" never would be able to reach the moon in the first place.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

40. You are trolling. You are wrong. The character specifically states in the novel he is NOT a Randite.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. That would be a signal to most people they should stop.

[DirtEdonE]

41. "libertarian" equals "randite" IMO

And in reality too.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't give you the right to call them a troll, does it?

I don't agree with you but I'm not calling you a troll. Perhaps it is you who should stop.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

42. It's not disagreement. It's the WAY you disagree. DU members will read & know. nt

[DirtEdonE]

43. LOL - how can anyone tell someone else how to disagree?

That's the antithesis of disagreement, no?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

4. The OP completely misunderstands libertarianism, sets up straw man and knocks it down with fallacies

Then the OP proceeds to insult most DU members since most members are younger than the OP who styles himself as 1950s Democrat.

To start, Ayn Rand is not a libertarian. She is an Objectivist and there is a huge difference. Paul Ryan is not a libertarian.

It's very easy to set up Objectivists and call them libertarians if you want to make a back-handed attack against libertarianism and that is what the (old) article the OP quotes from. It's the old straw man approach and not reputable.

[DirtEdonE]

6. Yawn. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

12. You're right-- the two are often confused but libertarianism is all about freedom of thought...

and action. The first ten amendments are all about libertarianism and how it must be enforced when society and/or the government become oppressive.

Responsible freedom, of course and it is a foundation of democracy. Unfortunately, too many alleged libertarians have confused it with anarchy and given it a bad name.

Objectivism is simply that you're on your own and tough shit if you can't make or take it.

[DirtEdonE]

16. "libertarians" in America today have as much to do with their pure philosophy

As the so-called "Christians" in the "religious" right.

They're perverted their entire belief system in an orgy of self-prostitution to rampant capitalist greed.

IMO.

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Many who call themselves libertarian have, but that's no reason to...

continue to spread the misinformation about it.

[DirtEdonE]

22. ayn rand spread more misinformation about it than I ever could.

But hers is the accepted "libertarian" dogma now.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

32. Two wrongs don't make a right. Stop spreading the disinformation. . . . nt

[DirtEdonE]

35. Oh man. Defending ayn rand!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

37. I'm not defending Ayn Rand, as all readers here can see. You are just trolling. Stop. . . . nt

[DirtEdonE]

39. Now you speak for "all readers"?

How libertarian of you.

LOFL

[Kurt V.]

7. read the virtues of selfishness by rand with an open mind.

That's some sick shit. we aren't wolves. no offense to wolves

[DirtEdonE]

8. I remember seeing the rand interview with Mike Wallace

It was an exercise in sociological/economic/humanist destruction.

ayn rand's face reflected her sick and tortured soul and now our nation, including some who call themselves Democrats right here on DU, reflects that horrid, nightmare face as well.

IMO

For those who don't know, watch the interview and see for yourselves.

[FakeNoose]

13. Believe it or not, a lot of people have no clue who Ayn Rand was

... especially the younger ones who managed to get through high school and college reading very few actual books.

This chart is over-simplified and I don't like the fact that it shows Libertarians in the BEST POSSIBLE way. But it does demonstrate many of their core beliefs and where they differ with liberals and conservatives.



The important thing to understand is that 35 or 40 years the Libertarian Party turned a corner and went rogue. They'll stop at nothing to overturn our US Constitution and our laws, if they think it will help in their quest to pay no taxes and take no responsibility for government.

[TygrBright]

17. Could you get me an introduction to this "The Left"?

Never met anyone who believed in all of that shit, it might be interesting.

amusedly,
Bright

[DirtEdonE]

25. You have to realize, it's a "libertarian" chart

Their ideas are a little, shall we say, ASKEW.

Even if they are "self-styled" - lofl.

What's trump? A "self-styled repubican"???

LOFL!

Acceptance of a greed-driven philosophy like "libertarianism" leaves little wiggle room.

[FakeNoose]

26. You'll have to ask a Libertarian

They're the ones who devised this chart.

[Igel]

33. It's what comes from trying to

explain in your framework what those living in a different framework believe.

You don't recognize yourself in how (L) present you to yourself; they won't recognize themselves in how (D) present (L) to themselves.

The last talks I had in depth with any libertarians occurred a while back. But he had such "toxic" and "un-Democratic" views as freedom of speech, legalization of controlled substances, legalization of same-sex marriage, all on the same basis as (D) did: Keep government from controlling what you did in private or, if there was no overt harm, in public.

Most of his views are now dubbed "progressive." Not all. Some were "conservative". If all you see is one part of his views, he was a RWer; if all you see is another part, he was left of many progressives. Without the "government has to remake society and force this to happen so please, give me all the authority over others that I need" approach.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. Yes, many self-styled Libertarians are not libertarians (small ell). . . . nt

[qazplm135]

28. Libertarianism is like communism

on paper you can make an argument for it, but in real life it fails horribly.

[Kurt V.]

34. +1

[KG]

23. libertarians: even dumber than republicans if that can be imagined.

[DirtEdonE]

27. repubicans love libertarians

Especially when they can use them against us. They really wind up helping the repubicans every election year.

Which is just about all you can be expected to accomplish as a libertarian.

[Hortensis]

29. If we all take care of ourselves, what happens to

all those suffering from our current temporary (effects of transition period between old ways and healthier future) but humongous epidemic illnesses, such as kidney and lung disease?
Carrying that thought to its natural conclusion brings us of course to mass death. But few care to. Loss of a lot of jobs also. No need for all those dialysis clinics or nursing homes that have sprung up all over.

Typical oldER problems? Gallbladder disease plus bone spur removal? How many people's retirement savings would last to retirement?

What about what it would do to us socially? When keeping or losing one's job would mean life or destitution and then death for many, how many firings would an employer agonize over before toughening up?

[vlyons]

30. I too reject libertarianism

Your reasons for rejecting it are not very helpful, because they don't explain what libertarian values are in the first place. You are correct in identifying the values of Ayn Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness" as a great motivating factor for libertarians. Libertarians would like to do away with as much gov as possible, except may the military, do away with taxes, and base wealth on the gold standard. Privatize everything that isn't nailed down. So you need a fire dept to save your house, if you aren't a subscriber of that service, too bad, Want to drive any where? Pay a toll for every mile you drive.

[DirtEdonE]

36. I'll post them from the link

I posted the link for explanation. Here are partial excerpts. Much more at the link below.

1. Libertarian values are repellent--Libertarianism celebrates greed and selfishness. Of course not all libertarians follow Ayn Rand in saying that openly, but that’s really what it’s all about. Am I being unfair? After all, libertarians sincerely believe in the wonders of free markets, and it just happens that greed and selfishness work well with free markets. So, you might argue, libertarians don’t necessarily have different values from you and me, just different beliefs about what works and what doesn’t. I don’t buy that. The plain fact is, libertarians by and large are simply not much bothered by social and economic inequality: their hearts bleed for the rich and successful, not for the underprivileged.

2. Libertarianism is intellectually myopic--Libertarians cherish freedom above all, but their concept of freedom is constricted and myopic. They understand freedom almost exclusively in terms of freedom from government, not recognizing that unfettered capitalism--the libertarians’ beloved free market economy--can be as great a threat to freedom as government action.

3. Libertarianism is utopian--An active state is a universal feature of advanced societies. The minimal government society that libertarians envision doesn’t exist anywhere in the industrial or post-industrial world, and never has, for good reason. Advanced capitalism simply doesn’t function without a fairly active, interventionist public sector.

4. Libertarianism is politically hopeless--You might well agree with me on the three preceding points but still feel that libertarianism has to be reckoned with politically--hasn’t Ron Paul shown that his creed has real popular appeal? My short answer would be that Paul’s ability to garner the vote of 20% of Iowa and New Hampshire Republican Party enthusiasts says very close to nothing about libertarianism’s mass appeal. My longer answer is that libertarians can never achieve mass appeal because libertarians, unlike conservatives, are hobbled by their principled consistency. Libertarian and conservative economic programs basically serve the interests of a relatively small portion of the population.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/1/17/1055627/-