Some thoughts on the outrage over the (so far) 1 billion euro raised to restore Notre Dame

[Siwsan]

I definitely understand the outrage that is triggered by that kind of money being raised to restore an old structure, but could likely never be raised for social issues (homelessness, hunger, etc). Truly, I get it.

My architecturally ignorant mind thinks that what is being raised is likely more than it is going to take for the restoration work.

I am assuming the restoration company has had to give back that 5 million euro they were paid to do the work, and who knows how much insurance money or even law suit settlements will be involved. Once that is put back into play, and adding in what additional funds, from what's been raised, it will take to complete the project, it would be ideal to see the surplus funds go into those social programs. Of course, the whole process would need stringent oversight, and the distribution of the excess funding would be politically tricky, but I don't THINK the problems are insurmountable.

Places like Notre Dame bring in a whole lot of tourist dollars from foreign visitors. And, despite how it may irk some people, it is an historic building that means a great deal to a great number of people, both on an historic and religious level. It can't be left to stand, as is. If not restored, it would have to be razed.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Perhaps my thinking is naive.

[Thekaspervote]

1. Good thoughts..thx!

[ucrdem]

2. If there's leftover euros they will probably go to other decrepit patrimony structures.

France has 85 other cathedrals and the ones that haven't already been rebuilt, and even those, are desperately in need of maintenance and fire protection, and there are thousands of other such structures that await the fate of NDP if they don't get some assistance.

The reason the pledges are big (I hadn't heard the 1b figure but it sounds reasonable) is partly due to tax advantages accruing to such donations, which for upkeep and renovation are fairly new, as after 1905 care of religious structures fell to local governments, always pinched, and for Notre Dame, to the city of Paris, which is more well off. But apparently its fire alarm system was woefully inadequate.

In other words, 1B is but a drop in the bucket sadly.

[Siwsan]

4. Yea, I didn't even think about more remote structures

I heard the 1b figure on NPR, yesterday.

I'm feeling fortunate to have visited many cathedrals, chapels, and other historic buildings in the UK. Even for those of us who are not particularly religious, the historic majesty of those buildings can leave one absolutely awe struck. Especially for someone, like me, who has spent a lifetime studying history.

[ucrdem]

10. Right now France spends $360 million annually on all those structures put together

so each cathedral gets a couple of hundred thou annually per the NYT here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/world/europe/notre-dame-france-monuments.html

That's not enough for major renovations let alone basic security and fire alarms. At the moment patrimony structures aren't wired to alert local fire brigades when alarms go off; it requires a personal call from someone who has checked out the alarm and can confirm that there's a fire. Welp, that's why Notre Dame now lacks a roof and a spire. So the need is great.

[Marthe48]

3. I'm happy that people unite for something

There are international, national, regional, civic, and personal projects and needs that each of us is hyper-aware of. Too many times in the present, projects and needs that need support fall by the wayside because there are so many opinions about the right and wrong, good and bad and so on, that people get discouraged and don't do anything.

Notre Dame was created by a mostly anon. workforce who united to make a monument for the glory of God. Or to put food on their tables. But it is heartbreakingly beautiful.I visited Paris in 2005 and saw Notre Dame. For no reason except that it is a symphony played in stone, tears ran down my face. I saw my adult daughters standing by me were also moved to tears. This piece of art, made by many human hands, is one of the best-known buildings in the Eurocentric world. The outpouring of support after this horrific fire is proof that we need Notre Dame in our world. How many other things bring so many humans together? How many things anchor us to a common reality?

In this tragedy, no human lives were lost, and we can be thankful. And if we are so moved, we can send money to help restore Notre Dame to a semblance of what it was before the fire. Or we can point out that the Church is rich, and take this time to mention climate change, refugee crises, Flint, Michigan water, church fires in La, starving and homeless people. If you have a few dollars, send a donation to a good cause that isn't a giant cathedral in another country. But take a minute to reflect on the humanity that built Notre Dame, and how it is so powerful that it touches us a thousand years later. And how badly we need touchstones like that as one generation follows another.

[Siwsan]

6. I love what you've written, and not just because I'm a native born "Flintstone"

and I have family and friends who have been struggling through the water crisis for far too long.

I am awe struck, walking through structures like cathedrals. I've never been to Notre Dame, but I've spent endless hours in places like Westminster, York, Bath, Wells, Salisbury Cathedrals. It is mind blowing to think of the labor it took to build them. (And, I thought the same about Stonehenge. I was fortunate to visit there when you could still walk around the site, rather than around a barrier that keeping you out of it.)

You have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

[Marthe48]

11. I hope that Flint is resolved soon

I was so happy to see news this week that the city is getting $77 million in federal funds, and that they can sue the government. When we were first married, we lived in a house with no running water. It had a well, and we loved it. But after that year, I don't take water for granted.

I first learned of Notre Dame in high school art history. Our teachers loved what they taught and planted the desire to know more. I was lucky to travel and see some of the art we learned about. We visited Stonehenge in 2005 on the same trip. My husband and I loved Bath, but we didn't see the cathedral. We saw the Roman baths and the Royal Crescent.

Thank you for taking a few minutes to read. There is so much on my mind lately. Here's to a happier future!

[Nitram]

5. The work will be very expensive for two reasons. 1) Much of it will consist of hand-carved

wood and stone work that needs to be replaced. There is no cheap and easy way to do that, and there are not many artisans who still have those skills.

2) Shoring up and strengthening a stone edifice of that age and size without further damage being done and without the supports being visible will be difficult and expensive.

Our own National Cathedral has still not been fully restored since earthquake damage in 2011.

https://cathedral.org/earthquake/eq3/

[Siwsan]

8. It seems like every time I've been to Westminster, they are doing more restorations

The air pollution has caused so much damage to the stonework. I'm always impressed, watching the stone masons do such precise work. But that's a long cry from doing massive restoration/repairs on the grand scale involved with Notre Dame.

I now have a George Harrison song playing in my head: "All Things Must Pass".

[Marthe48]

13. It'll be hard to match the carving

and the workmanship. I think techniques have evolved since Notre Dame was constructed. I didn't even think of the supports and such. Maybe the fire didn't do extreme damage to the stones (maybe it didn't burn hot enough or long enough to crack the stones)

[Nitram]

30. Articles have said they don't know yet, but that fire can damage stone and weaken its structure.

[tavernier]

7. Internet outrage

What a shock.

[Siwsan]

9. I was listening to a show on NPR, when I hear this

I was driving, at the time, so I couldn't note any specifics of who it was that was speaking or what group(s) she represented.

[madinmaryland]

12. Why in the fuck should local and federal governments support the rebuilding

of these buildings? Shouldn’t the Catholic Church be taking responsibility either through insurance or their own vast wealth?

Why should governments be responsible for bad wiring in s church. This pisses me off to no end.

[ucrdem]

14. It's a result of a 1905 law meant to laicize public education

and guarantee freedom of religious worship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State

[Siwsan]

15. I have no idea as to the division of financial responsibility

No doubt the RC Church has some financial responsibility for the maintenance of the building. It's also a national historic site so there could be an overlap of state/church responsibility. But that's just a guess.

I do agree that the Vatican should maybe start selling off a WHOLE LOT of their treasure, and use those funds to take care of their religious structures and, more importantly, people.

[GulfCoast66]

23. I've been fortunate enough to see 3 of Frances great Cathedrals

If I remember correctly, they are all owned by the state and Roman Catholics get to use them. The French I know, not much of a sample I’ll admit, see them more as a part of their cultural heritage than religions institutions.

And the separation between church and state there is more dramatic than here. They are a secular republic.

The Church was hand in hand with the aristocracy that the revolution was against.

[Totally Tunsie]

37. See #36 below...

[Atman]

16. I would think it's self-insured

With the kind of money The Church has, just filling out insurance paperwork must be a nightmare.

[Totally Tunsie]

38. See #36 below...

[suffragette]

17. It would be great to see young and blue collar people trained to help with the restoration.

Some kind of paid apprenticeship program that would give them valuable skills, both in preserving older works and incorporating modern techniques to enhance through safety and other aspects.

At the same time, they would be taking part in a major cultural work there, which would provide them with knowledge and a good resumé base.

And the people who donated would know their funding went toward preserving this amazing structure and helping to create a new generation of artisans and crafts workers.

I think there is a strong opportunity here, if they have the will to explore it.

[Siwsan]

18. Great idea!

I know there is a small but very talented and busy group of stone masons who help maintain the historic buildings in the UK. The adherence to detail, both in materials and technique, are amazing.

[suffragette]

20. Enrich the youth with those skills, with the depth of that knowledge of history and new techniques.

Then imagine what they could impart to France’s present and future.

Something I have found striking in reading about the challenges with Notre Dame is how important and delicate the balance of the structure itself is. All the elements depend on each other to provide the strength and beauty of that building. There is much to learn, just from that fact and how to think and work to accomplish it.

I think people really do want to contribute, and will, if given the chance.

[GulfCoast66]

24. I recently read an article on this. Sorry, no link.

It was about how despite what you might read on the Internet, there is actually quite an industry in Europe built around preserving and restoring these old buildings. And that there are good jobs to be had.

It was by the guy who helped redo Windsor Castle when it burned.

It actually talked about what a golden opportunity this was to train new apprentices and stonemasons.

It also talked about how these kind of incidents have always happened in they presents a Chance to uncover long lost techniques we did not know about. I wish I could find the article.

I’ve been fortunate enough to go to quite a few cathedrals in Europe. The only one that I remember not having work being done on it was the Duomo in Milan. That was in 1998. And it’s the only cathedral I’ve seen that and impressed me more than Notre Dame. Of course it was also the first one I had ever seen. I remember being speechless at how big that thing was. And wondering how did they build that 700 years ago. But I have yet to see Saint Peter’s in Rome.

I was in Venice last fall, and St. Mark’s had scaffolding all over. Look like a major rehab. The only thing I found impressive about that cathedral, and this was in 1998, was how the floor undulated from repeated flooding.

[suffragette]

25. If you ever find the article, please send me a link. Good point about discovering long lost

techniques. I’m sure there will be some found here as well, tucked into the niches that weren't accessible before. It makes absolute sense that Europe can and must support such an industry given how important tourism is to the economy. And some who are trained in such techniques could bring old/new energy to new design as well. That solar bicycle path that emulated Van Gogh’s Starry Night comes to mind.

I read an article that was written before the fire about reconstruction needed then that stated some of the stones from the last major reconstruction in the 19th century were crumbling more than older ones. So, something to learn from there and address as well.

I’ve traveled a bit as well. Thinking on St. Mark’s now, I can’t recall actually going inside. I did enjoy resting a bit in the square.

There is always repair work to be done. When I visited Florence, Botticelli’s Primavera was being restored. I would very much have liked to have seen it, but I appreciate that it must be done.

[GulfCoast66]

27. You didn't miss much by skipping St Marks. Not if you've been to Florence. I'm Jealous!

If ever back in Venice go to the San Donato Church on the island of Murano. The glass place.

Small but something funny. Saint Donato supposedly killed a dragon and brought back the bones which assured his Sainthood. The bones are actually displayed in the church. The nicest Whale rib bones you will ever see! Hucksters then, Hucksters now. But it is a 10th century church worth seeing. And there is a restaurant just across the canal from it. Looks like nothing. Totally off the tourist route. Only went in because my buddy had to pee! But has a hidden huge tree shaded courtyard in the back. Best meal I have had in Italy.

[suffragette]

39. Those small discoveries can make a trip special. If I ever get to Venice again, I will seek that out

Florence is amazing. Wish I had been able to stay longer than three days, but very happy I was able to go there.

[artislife]

21. What did we do with the twin tower site?

There's your answer.

A place is only sacred if people believe it to be so.

I like how the burned by arson Black Churches have received money by our questioning this further. Not that the two are comparable, one is an accident and the other is pure evil brought to physical form.

[GulfCoast66]

28. And that $2,000,000 will mean more to those parishioners

Than the Billion to Notre Dame.

Don’t get me wrong. I love Notre Dame as does my wife. We are not religious but that place has meaning.

And I have no problem with the gifts by rich folks there. They paid way more taxes on their income than they would have in the US. Had Steve Jobs or Bill Gates paid 70% income or capital gains tax they would still be Billionaires. And I would then have no problem with it. It’s when they pay less than me, an upper middle class member who really should pay more, that I have a problem.

[UniteFightBack]

22. Maybe those deploables clad in yellow vests can get themselves some work there and put their

weekend time to better use.

[democratisphere]

26. Construction costs today are ridiculous and if the Church is restored

largely to its' original specifications and materials, it will probably cost more than a billion euros.

[ucrdem]

29. I suspect you are right.

It's not just the roof, and the spire, but also the wiring, pews, restoration of art works, sound system, organ restoration, insurance, security, hopefully an adequate fire safety system that doesn't rely on a security guard climbing a winding staircase to check out each alarm before it can be reported, etc. The money will flow into the economy, so it's well spent, but yeah a billion E will go fast

[GulfCoast66]

31. We don't even know it's original specifications! No records were kept.

The spire that fell was ‘only’ 180 years old. The interior was totally redone 200 years earlier.

And I sincerely hope they don’t use the same methods as in the 11th century. I actually got to tour the upper reaches of Notre Dame in 2017. The size of the beams was astounding. But it was necessary to support a lead roof. The trees that those beams came from sprouted in the 8th and 9th century.

I hope they use a carbon fiber or similar beam system with a titanium roof. That would be in keeping with the long history of the cathedral. Even better if they use recycled materials. Realize, unless you take a special tour none of this is visible to the average visitor/worshiper.

The real jewel of Notre Dame is the windows. And due to the training and bravery of the firefighters they apparently survived.

I hope I get to see it rebuilt.

We attended Mass there on a Monday in 2013. So few people we sat in the Choir which is usually off limits. I’m an ex-Baptist Freethinker! Mass was in French which I’m limited in. But it was a moving experience. Not from a religious standpoint but the historical.

[democratisphere]

32. Fortunately a 3D laser measured model was recently done

and this data and model should provide architects with huge assistance for construction restoration specifications. Check this out here:

https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/notre-dam-reconstruction-04323/

[GulfCoast66]

33. Yeah, I saw that. Very cool.

Hopefully this will spur the French on to keep all their cathedrals in good shape. Maybe those billionaires will help out. Maybe there will be a Billionaires Cathedral tax! Tell the they get a fast pass to heaven! Ok. A man can dream.

The cathedral in Reims is impressive as hell as is the one in Chartres. I hear Amiens is also great.

My goal is to see all the great French Cathedrals before I die. Well, one of my goals!
.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

34. I wonder if the people "outraged" over the money raised to restore a priceless

piece of cultural history are as outraged over the insane sums of money spent on political campaigns.

[intelpug]

35. outrage

Well, as far as outrage over the money involved,, then,, by that logic no money should be in good conscience given to any restoration anywhere at anytime. Notre Dame by any standard is a timeless and beautiful icon of western European culture and if people freely give to restore it well then, what of it? its not the place of others to priorize the charitable intent of doners to their own causes however worthy they may be. Having grown up catholic I can already see that there will be much more than money involved here, for any 20 something going on their first trip to Europe {like where they bicycle the length of Europe and stay in those youth hostels on a shoe string} there will undoubtedly be an organized volunteer program where people can assist the work for say a week or so carrying supplies running errands for the workmen, manual labor sort of things and many people with nothing better to do at that time in their lives will consider it a very great honor to look back later in life and say " yes that summer", Thats the summer me and my college roomates toured Europe and for two weeks in France we got to help with the restoration of Notre Dame.

[Totally Tunsie]

36. Notre Dame is not covered by an insurance policy!

It is actually owned by the country of France - not the Catholic Church - and, as such, is self-insured by France itself.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/notre-dame-has-no-insurance-policy-2019-04-16

The vaunted cathedral has no insurance, a spokesman for the French Consulate in New York City told MarketWatch.

France owns Notre Dame, just like it owns all religious buildings erected before 1905, he said.

“The French State is self-insured for Notre Dame. It has no insurance. It is supposed to cover its own costs,” spokesman Paul Gadel said.