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Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:56 AM Apr 2019

ONCE in the last 150 years a President was impeached but then not removed from office

That's not a whole lot of precedent to go drawing sweeping conclusions from. Yet I see that one instance cited as evidence that a political party that fails to remove an impeached President from office then goes on to suffer at the polls in the following election.

Once is merely a data point. No one can even attempt to connect the dots because there is only that one dot. Period. One event does not a pattern make. One event can be explained by any number of theories. Mine? Republicans were caught blatantly playing politics with the most solemn of constitutional obligations. They deployed a nuclear weapon to punish a jay walking violation. They moved to nullify a national election based on "smoking gun" evidence such as Bill Clinton's famous assertion that "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is."

Republicans turned a sordid private sexual liaison between two consenting adults into a full blown constitutional crisis. A case could certainly be made that a President dallying with an intern showed poor judgement, or even an abuse of power on a personal level, fully separate from the discharge of his presidential duties. Essentially that's it. Bill Clinton was impeached in large part for lying under oath about a personally embarrassing matter. Worthy of a Congressional censure? Perhaps. Worthy of removing him from office? I think the American people gave a clear response to that question at the ballot box.

Nothing Bill Clinton did in office even remotely rose to a level that justified the forced removal from office of an American President for the first time in American history. Bill Clinton did not obstruct justice. He agreed to testify under oath to a grand jury, quite unlike the current President. Hell Donald Trump didn't just lie about an embarrassing sexual dalliance, he engaged in a criminal conspiracy to cover it up using hush money and shell companies, and he did so in direct violation of Federal laws regarding campaign finances and disclosure. Individual One is already an unindicted coconspirator to a Federal Felony that already led to the conviction of the man he directed to commit the crime. And that is the least of the High Crimes and Misdemeanors strong evidence points toward him committing.

Republicans suffered a stinging electoral rebuke after failing to remove Clinton because they played brutal politics with the most grave of constitutional responsibilities. The trial of Bill Clinton in the Senate was a joke, because the entire effort to remove him from office was a bad joke on America to begin with, and that was obvious to the American public from day one. Republicans allowed political calculations dictate their judgement when it came time to uphold the U.S. Constitution, and the voters called them on that.

The impeachment of a President and the subsequent removal from office of a President should never be determined by a preset political agenda, whether that agenda is to remove a rival from office, or to best position one's party for an upcoming political contest. The evidence must speak for itself, and do so boldly. And the evidence must dictate the course of action undertaken, be that to impeach or to not impeach. Republicans played politics with impeachment before. Democrats should not now. Republicans were punished for doing so last time. And if the legitimate case against Donald Trump is strong enough, but Republicans circle their partisan wagons around him anyway, they will be punished by voters for doing so again come the 2020 elections.

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ONCE in the last 150 years a President was impeached but then not removed from office (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 OP
another data point from the clinton impeachment rampartc Apr 2019 #1
A certain degree of "grandstanding" seems built into politics. Call it "background radiation" Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 #2
Both Johnson and Clinton impeachment did NOT help their party in nearest election. Based off uponit7771 Apr 2019 #3
The impeachment vote was in December 1998 NewJeffCT Apr 2019 #4
I think this is your core argument, yes? "the impeachment fired up the Republican base" Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 #5
Part of that was because NewJeffCT Apr 2019 #6
Agreed. Rpublicans will be on the defensive for months. Democrats will be red hot Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 #8
100% Buffalo Soldier Apr 2019 #7
Thank you n/t Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 #9

rampartc

(5,373 posts)
1. another data point from the clinton impeachment
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:05 AM
Apr 2019

the main repubs involved - gingrich and livingston had to quit in disgrace. bob barr and lindsey graham were also obviously grandstanding.

our guys will not act like that, will they?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
2. A certain degree of "grandstanding" seems built into politics. Call it "background radiation"
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:09 AM
Apr 2019

Everyone is used to a bit of that and the public calibrates their needles accordingly. But the Democrats have some outstanding public servants in Congress who are capable of building a narrative around facts, not fiction. And it the facts that are dangerous to Trump, not partisan posturing.

uponit7771

(90,301 posts)
3. Both Johnson and Clinton impeachment did NOT help their party in nearest election. Based off
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:09 AM
Apr 2019

... the facts it looks like the reasoning against impeachment is falling apart

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
4. The impeachment vote was in December 1998
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:18 AM
Apr 2019

The senate trial was in 1999. Democrats picked up a handful of seats in November 1998 in the House, but the GOP still maintained the majority.

Then, in 2000, the media kept telling Al Gore that he needed to distance himself from the "tainted" Clinton despite a good economy and stock market and relative peace in the world. Gore embraced that line of thought and also nominated moderate "straight arrow" Joe Lieberman as his vice president to further set himself apart from Clinton.

The base was underwhelmed. Yes, Clinton was too moderate for many Democrats, but he was far better than Bush or Dole and he also gave us RBG. Maybe a more liberal VP would have inspired the base? Gore received about 3 million more votes than Bill Clinton did in 1996, but George W. Bush received 10 million more votes than Bob Dole did in 1996.

It never should have been that close. Yes, you can stay Bush and his brother stole Florida and/or that Gore ran a bad campaign, but the impeachment fired up the Republican base and Gore distancing himself from the popular Clinton and the Clinton economy depressed the Democratic base. The economy, while showing signs of weakness, was still good.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
5. I think this is your core argument, yes? "the impeachment fired up the Republican base"
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:24 AM
Apr 2019

That they remained fired up even though that impeachment wasn't sustained by the Senate. That it spurred Republican turnout in 2000. That's an interesting observation.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
6. Part of that was because
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:36 AM
Apr 2019

Fox News was hitting its stride by 1999/2000 so they were leading the GOP base around by the nose by that time. Rush Limbaugh was doing that before, but Fox took it to another level with multiple hosts, pretty graphics and pretty hostesses.

Democrats don't always march to the same tune like Republicans, but sustained hearings on Obstruction of Justice, Witness Tampering, National Security/Collusion and more (financial fraud if tax returns come out over the next year...) will keep Democrats fired up and focused on stopping Trump.

It will also give free air time to leading Democratic candidates, as the media will ask Biden, Bernie, Beto, Buttigieg, Harris, Warren, Klobuchar, etc about the new revelations.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
8. Agreed. Rpublicans will be on the defensive for months. Democrats will be red hot
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:23 PM
Apr 2019

And nothing will stop Democratic candidates below the presidential level especially from bringing up and focusing on bread and butter issues etc. also.

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