General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPelosi Warns Democrats: Stay in the Center or Trump May Contest Election Results
By Glenn Thrush
May 4, 2019
WASHINGTON Speaker Nancy Pelosi does not believe President Trump can be removed through impeachment the only way to do it, she said this week, is to defeat him in 2020 by a margin so big he cannot challenge the legitimacy of a Democratic victory.
...
Sitting in her office with its panoramic view of the National Mall, Ms. Pelosi the de facto head of the Democratic Party until a presidential nominee is selected in 2020 offered Democrats her coldblooded plan for decisively ridding themselves of Mr. Trump: Do not get dragged into a protracted impeachment bid that will ultimately get crushed in the Republican-controlled Senate, and do not risk alienating the moderate voters who flocked to the party in 2018 by drifting too far to the left.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/us/politics/nancy-pelosi.html
Dennis Donovan
(18,770 posts)Again, I ask, what is the "far left"? Medicare for all? College debt relief? Both poll well with independents.
zaj
(3,433 posts)It's a mix of new policies that feel too good to be true, and a a tone that feels overly tribal left.
This isn't simple, unfortunately.
TheBlackAdder
(28,072 posts)CanonRay
(14,036 posts)Amishman
(5,540 posts)Best case scenario the seat flips
Worst case they get extra publicity and fundraising. Just look at the green party money grab after the 2016 election.
JHB
(37,128 posts)...a blowout will produce accusations of sweeping, massive fraud.
All baseless, but when was that last a concern to Republican? The Ford administration?
Rambling Man
(249 posts)Repubs will do and say anything. They are a radical right wing movement and have no basis in fundamental decency, adherence to truth, or anything remotely moral.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Apple Fritter
(131 posts)But other stuff too but mostly that.
enough
(13,235 posts)outcome of the election. It empowers him.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)She's warning about it.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,110 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)triron
(21,914 posts)uponit7771
(90,225 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Bayard
(21,802 posts)We can't live in fear of this criminal.
But we can be strategic.
shanti
(21,670 posts)They always seem to be one step ahead of us.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)shanti
(21,670 posts)at his disposal, not just Ghouliani.
KPN
(15,585 posts)Apple Fritter
(131 posts)triron
(21,914 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Trump out of office or making a point?
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Either our government follows through on its commitment to the constitution, or it is complete bullshit.
Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)
Post removed
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)Democrats must exercise the power they have thanks to their present House majority.
Democrats must discharge the Constitutional responsibilities they swore to uphold and defend in their oaths of office.
Pelosi is wrong about impeachment and future election prospects.
She was unfortunately wrong about impeachment over the Iraq war lies in 2006. Had Bush/Cheney been brought to justice, would we have had the housing crash? Would we be saddled with Justice Alito had inquiries into impeachment begun in January 2006? Would mainstream media in 2019 be talking about Bush/Cheney with a tinge of "good old days?" We'll never know.
[ON-EDIT - My timeline is mistaken in the paragraph immediately above, as Alito was confirmed in January '06, while Pelosi did not retake the Speaker's gavel until January '07 {thanks to Trumpocalypse for pointing this out just below}. My postulate that robust House push back against Bush/Cheney could have prevented other problems stemming from the late Bush/Cheney years stands.]
What I know right now, is that elections have been manipulated, and the Trump lust for power and secrecy is insatiable. Conducting business as usual like the days of Tip O'Neill is a grievous mistake (heck, it was a bad idea when O'Neill was doing it).
The House is all that Democrats have right now. If Pelosi shrinks from her own responsibilities again, I fear for our country.
-app
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)when she took impeachment of Bush off the table. In 08 Dems won the Presidency and increased majorities in both Houses of congress.
watoos
(7,142 posts)We won in 08 because of the disastrous Iraq war that we were lied into. Keep telling yourself that we did the right thing by not prosecuting war criminals.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)didnt lead to a loss in 08 as many claimed back then. The same lame and false argument that many are making now. But the win in 08 did lead to the ACA, the end of Dont Ask, Dont Tell, etc.
And if the choice is a useless impeachment of Bush or millions mote having Healthcare, Ill chose the latter.
watoos
(7,142 posts)who cost us the public option of Obamacare even though we had majorities in both Houses for 4 1/2 months.
Moving to the center will alienate millennials and younger voters and the only way we lose in 2020 is if we don't show up to vote. We won in 2018 because we ran as FDR Democrats and because the moderates wanted a check on Trump. Moving to the right in 2020 will be the end of the Democratic party.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowich are all war criminals and should have been prosecuted for war crimes. They couldn't even travel to certain countries because they would have been arrested by countries who would have prosecuted war criminals.
How many Republicans voted for Obamacare?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)She said center-left. And no one ran in 2018 as an FDR Democrat. At least I don't remember anyone supporting segregation or the internment of Japanese Americans. And if you look in to it, more districts were flipped from red to blue by moderate candidates not by far left candidates.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)forming a Watergate-esque special committee to investigate trump's impeachable offenses like the Senate did with Nixon?!?!!!??
So, it appears our Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on anymore, we all know there will be more sophisticated election interference by Putin, probably MBS and China in 2020, and IMO we are losing our moral compass.
According to Pelosi, we are not even going to try to do the right thing for our country and we should support only Democratic candidates who are centrist.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)All the investigations can be done through existing House committees which is happening. So stop slandering one of the best speakers weve ever had. She has been right far more often than shes been wrong.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)He cant be impeached. And the worst case scenario is that when the Senate votes not to impeach, Trump claims exoneration. Sure, we dont care what MAGAs think, but what many voters we need will think is that Dems go for show. And it would be nothing but a show since the same hearings can be held without calling for impeachment.
Pelosi is also right when she says we need a landslide. Between more and better Russian help, voter suppression, the usual voter fraud, no paper trail and antiquated or rigged election machinery, the only way Repugs cant pull off yet another election steal is if our candidate is an unambiguous winner across constituencies, a big winner.
Celerity
(42,645 posts)There is then a trial in the Senate. The Senate can either convict and remove, or vote to acquit.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)they wont vote to impeach.
Celerity
(42,645 posts)If you cannot even get basic definitions right, it makes your argument look uninformed.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)When you put words in someones mouth that they never said, that is slandering.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)when the slandering ends.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)You OK with Dems being slandered?
wryter2000
(46,016 posts)We need several committees all working at the same time, and we have that. Granted, their stonewalling is frustrating, but we can keep up the pressure. it seems as if some new bombshell lands every week, like Mueller's letters to Barr.
Oneironaut
(5,461 posts)They don't care in the least bit about Trump colluding with Russia, or filling the government with flunkies. It doesn't affect their life in any way. They're not paying attention.
What they really care about is their healthcare, jobs, and safety. If you begin to have hearings, they'll just tune us out.
American society is also increasingly cynical about politicians. Most people legitimately believe there is very little difference between Trump and any other politician. They're all bad in their minds. Trying to convince them that Trump is a scumbag is telling them something they already know. They just don't care.
Lock him up.
(6,873 posts)Not in November, not never.
Moreso if the price of gas keeps going up, as it will surely do if Bolton & Co have their sick way, bombing Iran.
Sales taxes up to 25% on every product imported from China (dumph's stoopid tariffs).
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)There is no event in history that is so clear cut that we could not argue about what would have happened if people did something different. That's with full hindsight. When you are acting in the now, the future is even less clear. Pelosi has no crystal ball, neither do you. Her responsibility is to guide us through this difficult time. Not to do things she believes are counterproductive because someone thinks she "must" do it. Excuse me, "must."
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)"We'll never know," is not an excuse to break a sworn oath of office.
We can have a friendly debate about the best course of action in 2007, but it would be purely academic at this point. Debating the best course of action of 2019 is considerably higher stakes. Congress has the explicit responsibility to conduct oversight and (via powers of the purse and legislation) even control of the Executive Branch which, if you had not noticed, has been completely rogue, corrupt, and autocratic since 1/2017. Trump is ignoring subpoenas and defying oversight right now. Pelosi needs to have a better plan at hand than she did in 2007, because matters are much more urgent now than then.
-app
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And as long we are DEBATING the best course of action, we are agreeing it is not a requirement.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)In 07 many made the argument that by not pursuing impeachment against Bush would dishearten Democrats and depress turnout in 08. Many are making the same argument today. But we know that didnt happen in 08 so we can discount that argument now.
watoos
(7,142 posts)You are assuming that because we didn't try criminals for war crimes that is the reason Obama won in 08.
My explanation is that people were pissed off that Republicans lied us into a bloody war and that's why we won in 08.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)we can win in 20.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)shanti
(21,670 posts)whether he loses big or small. Count on it.
Even if he wins he'll claim the margin of victory should've been larger.
hatrack
(59,439 posts)Guess what, he's going to keep on doing stupid/illegal shit until the day he keels over.
Stop operating on the basis of fear of what he might do.
LiberalFighter
(50,491 posts)Work on getting support for progressive ideas from the majority. That moves the center to the left.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)Autumn
(44,748 posts)emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)Pelosi said Own the center left, the mainstream.
I have yet to see evidence that the mainstream is all in for all of the progressive agenda.
We ignore that mainstream at our peril.
Autumn
(44,748 posts)the lies that he was going to protect SS, no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid, promised great health care, one trillion on infrastructure, drain the swamp and a few others. We knew he was full of shit, The rubes believed him. If you haven't seen any evidence that the mainstream likes a lot of the progressive agenda, like MFA you missed a few things.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)And theres support for other alternatives. Clearly, most Americans want universal coverage, but how to get there will still be debated as more is revealed:
https://apnews.com/4516833e7fb644c9aa8bcc11048b2169
LiberalFighter
(50,491 posts)More people are likely to be to the left of center then is thought. Because of that the center is losing it's center to the left.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)When Pelosi was facing a challenge to the speakership, DUers rallied around her touting her wisdom and experience and how much they trusted her judgement.
Now many of those same DUers calling her out for her strategy of playing to the middle.
Response to Jake Stern (Reply #25)
Generic Other This message was self-deleted by its author.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)far more than I trust the judgment of anyone on DU.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Started out begrudging her for not going after Shrub and her not-so-hidden hostility to some things that are sought by the left but as time has gone on and I've come to agree with her middle path stand.
How quickly folks forget that many of those 2018 House victories were in conservative districts where they can easily be flipped back into the Trump column.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)I was definitely having concerns, and now I'm seeing what I was worried about.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)It's not wrong to let her know we don't think this is the right way to go.
RandySF
(57,617 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Pelosi said "left of center" not middle-of-the-road center
Own the center left, own the mainstream, Ms. Pelosi, 79, said.
robbedvoter
(28,290 posts)emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)MFM008
(19,776 posts)jalan48
(13,797 posts)KG
(28,749 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Pelosi said Democrats have to "own the center-left", not stay in the center.
There's a big difference.
Sid
standingtall
(2,785 posts)the more the house delays flexing it's constitutional muscle the more they will turn off their own base while making the lies of Trump look more credible to moderate voters. If there is sure way to botch the 2020 election it is to look weak and we are flirting with that now.
TwilightZone
(25,342 posts)She said that it's not likely to remove Trump, which is correct. The Senate will not vote to convict.
watoos
(7,142 posts)as long as our base turns out. When we fail to do our Constitutional duty and impeach a criminal president that is not going to invigorate our base to turn out.
Trump is not playing defense, he is investigating the crooked FBI and Democrats (Hillary) who waged a witch hunt against him. Since we don't impeach that will allow Trump to control the narrative that he was the victim of a witch hunt.
Making the reason for impeachment strictly political will backfire on us, it will depress our voter turnout. All we need to do to beat Trump is to turn out our base. Trump won in 2016 because our base stayed home.
Not impeaching Trump legitimizes everything he did, in my way of thinking, just like it was wrong when we didn't prosecute war criminals in 2009.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Do you think most Americans an keep up?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)It proved to be wrong then and is wrong now.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)for one thing most elected Democrats voted for the Iraq war. Which would've made it hard to for them to justify voting to impeach Bush despite the fact the Bush administration lied to get us into war. Presidents have been lying to get us into war sense forever very few people seriously thought Bush was going to be impeached or that Democrats should've seriously considered impeaching him. Besides that our nominee was Obama a once in a generation candidate we have great candidates for 2020, but none of them are even close to Barrack Obama nor will they be. Taking impeachments off the table will make Democrats look weak just like voting for the Iraq war made them look weak in 04.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)about Dems looking weak by not impeaching Bush. It was BS then and its BS now.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)again apples and oranges. There was no two year investigation into Bush by the FBI and there were no serious Presidential candidate calling for Bushes impeachment. If Democrats don't impeach Trump they will look weak even if they manage to squeak out a win in 2020. Which will not be a sign of political strength or wisdom, but a revelation of just how deeply unpopular Trump was.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)doesnt make it true either. Do you have any evidence that your opinion has any credibility?
standingtall
(2,785 posts)Do you have anything to refute those facts? Other than to repeat the same assertion without anything to support your assertion.
marlakay
(11,370 posts)When I hear advice from any politician no matter who, that are very wealthy telling me to stay in the middle I admit I get suspicious why they say that.
She is tough and has worked hard for the party for many years but she is rich.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)one of the few people to be elected to speaker twice.
How times have you been elected speaker?
Rambling Man
(249 posts)Tip O'Neill?
Both elected speaker more than once.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Rambling Man
(249 posts)who get elected to Speaker of the House.
Are they exempt from having an opinion because they've never been elected to Speaker?
That would be MOST people.
Kind of a dumb question.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Who has more credibility on political strategy? Someone who has been elected Speaker twice or or someone sitting anonymously behind their computer at home.
Rambling Man
(249 posts)who is not in politics who would never have a shot at being Speaker can't say anything because they have no credibility?
Sounds very "Dear Leader" and totalitarian to me.
Kinda like the way they do things in North Korea.
What's next? are we going to be told the Speaker doesn't go to the bathroom or created the sun or some shit like that?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)They can say what they want. But if they want to put their political judgement up against that of someone who has been elected Speaker twice, they should be expected to be called out on it.
Rambling Man
(249 posts)" . . . someone sitting anonymously behind their computer at home."
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Rambling Man
(249 posts)have a blessed day.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)robbedvoter
(28,290 posts)would be nice if people read the article before jumping.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)And far more than anyone posting on DU.
doompatrol39
(428 posts)But will if we nominate a liberal?
Jesus Christ.
And is there a single bit of evidence that it was moderates who "flocked to the party in 2018"? Or are we just supposed to take that on faith?
And the thing I don't get about all of this "WE MUST NOMINATE A MODERATE/CENTRIST!!!!" is that it is built on a foundational logic that Hillary lost in 2016 because she was......too liberal?
I mean I know our party's logic is that if we lose it's always because of progressives/liberals/the left, and that moderate centrism can never actual fail it can only be failed by the dirty hippies.....but hearing her say it out loud is even more disheartening than normal.
TwilightZone
(25,342 posts)A point that was rather clear, though the NY Times managed to mangle it in the headline.
And she didn't say "centrist", she said "center-left". They're not remotely the same thing.
watoos
(7,142 posts)and have been voting for Democrats all of my life and I have never heard this strategy that we have to win by a large margin or our win will be deemed tainted by the loser. To me that attitude is defeatist. That's like saying that my sports team has to win by 2 touchdowns, my baseball team by 6 runs, my basketball team by 25 points. That's defeatist if you ask me. I'm sorry but when my sports team wins by 1, I celebrate, and when my opponents team cries they were cheated I just laugh at them for being sore losers.
doompatrol39
(428 posts)If we win, we win. As someone else already responded, if you win by 1 you still win regardless of how poor a sport the other team is.
The fact that she is putting this arbitrary goalpost up there sends a terrible message, that Republicans get to call the shots and Republicans get to set the parameters. Almost as bad as her message that we shouldn't take any risks in holding Trump accountable.
And again, it also presupposes that Hillary was somehow less of a "center-left" candidate than Obama was. People can revise history all they want, but the fact is that regardless of what happened after he took office, Obama's 2008 campaign was quite liberal, and Hillary's 2016 campaign was very "center-left". I'm not sure why that lesson is conveniently always lost in these discussions. We were told we needed a moderate candidate like Hillary in 2016 in order to win, she got the nomination, and lost the electoral college. Now revisionists want to claim that she was too liberal and we need to move more to the center?
Rambling Man
(249 posts)since FDR.
Rambling Man
(249 posts)is everyone and everything compromised?
There won't be a free and fair election in 2020. Just like the last one.
The republicans will act in bad faith NO MATTER WHAT. You can't pin the life of our republic on potentialities that may never materialize.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)So a "moderate" Democrat might vote for Trump? I just don't know what they want.
watoos
(7,142 posts)from the corporate controlled right wing M$M.
The issues that Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Andrew Yang espouse when taken issue by issue are all popular with the American people. What the M$M calls the far left is popular with the majority of Americans.
We won in 2018 because we ran as FDR Democrats. Sure, all politics is local, there are some areas of the country where we need to be more centrist, but overall we won a blue tsunami by not running as moderates.
The only way we lose in 2020 is if we don't turn out to vote. Not impeaching Trump is not going to inspire our base to turn out.
Put Maxine Waters in charge of the impeachment committee and give her 12 freshman Congresspersons and let the fur fly, if we do that I guarantee that we will bury Trump in a landslide, and maybe get 50 Senate seats in the process.
Rambling Man
(249 posts)not because Democrats wanted to become more Reagan-like.
BeyondGeography
(39,278 posts)Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 07:14 AM - Edit history (1)
Trump isnt worth impeaching.
Trump has to be defeated in a landslide, or else.
Democrats need to be mainstream center left or they will blow it.
What is to be gained by any of that? These are Pelosis personal opinions, each is highly debatable, highly disputed within our party and can easily be turned into a Republican talking point. Her statement about the election margin is even borderline reckless. Defeatism and learned helplessness are what I hear. Not anything resembling strong leadership thats for sure. Would that the Speaker spent less time educating Democrats on their limitations and more attacking Republicans.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)more than she's been wrong.
duforsure
(11,882 posts)And he and putin could be planning an event to distract, a major event would not surprise me now, or trump just declaring the election is illegally done,when he was illegally doing things all along. Cyber attack to the infrastructure? A war breakout? They could pull something off here before this election so trump could declare martial law to bypass everyone. They're capable of doing anything. HE has too much to lose if he loses the election.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)Offer the voters an actual progressive platform, highlight how different it is from conservatism. That is how you attract voters, as we saw in 2018.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and in 18 purple districts were flipped with moderate candidates.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)him and Barr there will be no consequences for their actions while Trump is on the phone with Putin doing god knows what and the entire executive branch and part of the legislative will do the same. In five years the judiciary will rule they were wrong if by some miracle they still exist. Apologies for the run on sentences. The time to act is now.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Maybe you should go back and read the entire article.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)And what is your evidence of what are a winning and losing strategies?
wryter2000
(46,016 posts)Otherwise, I'm in total agreement with her. Impeachment won't remove him from office, and that's the main goal. If he can't be taken out in handcuffs, he's in office until January of 2021.
Keep up the investigations. Keep up the pressure. Show him to be the liar and tyrant that he is right up until the presidential election. 38% of the vote won't win it for him.
In the meantime, impeach Barr.
pbmus
(12,418 posts)Everyone talks about Nixon, Nixon, Nixon....
The Big Con is Not Nixon....
He is 100 times worse
And has a political apparatus that will mow down impeachment proceedings...
We must continue on this investigations process with ...
Every week a new scandal...
wryter2000
(46,016 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,366 posts)All of which is to to say that the "centrist" model for a Democrat has it exactly backwards. If the goal is to win over swing voters in Midwestern states, the winning strategy isn't to back an economically centrist candidate like Biden, but a Democrat who appeals so strongly to these voters with progressive economic policies that they're willing to set aside the racial resentment that led them to vote for Trump.
[snip]
What these elections demonstrate is that voters aren't really inspired by playing it safe or moving to the center. Instead, candidates do better by convincing voters that this election is a historic moment and they don't want to be left on the sidelines. There are a number of 2020 candidates who have that juice for different reasons: Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg and Kamala Harris all seem to be generating excitement at their rallies. It could be catastrophic if Democratic voters, laboring under the panicky delusion that only a "centrist" can win, blow their chance to beat Trump by nominating exactly the wrong kind of candidate
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)She said center-left. Dishonest of that columnist not yo point that out.