How on Earth do horse racing fans

[Codeine]

rationalize the fact that their entertainment is built on a foundation of animals being physically destroyed and subsequently put down? Seemingly multiple times a week some poor horse shatters a leg for no reason other than to excite spectators and enrich betting services.

This isn’t the same as humans being injured in sport; those are rational beings with agency deciding to accept that risk; animals don’t have that ability or understanding.

This “sport” needs to disappear.

[hlthe2b]

1. It desperately needs to reform. My qualms about it disappearing is that

Last edited Tue May 21, 2019, 01:22 PM - Edit history (2)

ALL horses will become a basic rarity and the providence of the ultra-rich only. Owning a backyard horse is becoming increasing cost-prohibitive for most people. Even ranchers in CO, WY and other parts of the West are raising fewer horses to do the day to day work with some (regrettably) turning to all-terrain vehicles and other motorized vehicles.

If horse racing goes because we can't provide for the safety of these beautiful animals, so too goes many or most of the other horse events. Barrel racing and competitive jumping are arguably even more dangerous in many venues--to both horse and rider.

Already the foals being produced and sold at major events like Saratoga have dramatically decreased--down nationwide to its lowest levels in 53 years.

So, maybe racing should go away, but largely too will the prevalence of horses in this country if there cease to be money-producing events to bolster them.

I'm conflicted. Santa Ana Raceway should surely close though. Enough. Safety before everything else should be the rule.

[A DAY IN THE LIFE]

9. Outlaw horses and only outlaws will have horses

Sorry, couldn't resist

[hlthe2b]

16. I'll make a deal. SInce you now realize you were responding to the wrong poster,

I will self-delete my responses to you if you will do the same. Otherwise other posters (like the poster from MT) will be equally confused and I'm tired of being falsely attacked.

[Maru Kitteh]

10. There are almost as many horses as people in Flathead County Montana, I think

And we are NOT rich folk out here, for the most part. They are a part of life here.

That being said, if horses are only here to be abused and destroyed - they should go.

[A HERETIC I AM]

40. "Sarasota"? Did you mean "Saratoga"?

[hlthe2b]

44. Yes... Sorry. I have Florida on the brain today... More good news comes out of NY, so

not a good mistake to make...

[Cartoonist]

2. Add bullfighting and boxing

I don't buy the rational being excuse for boxing.

[USALiberal]

3. At least boxers have a say in it. Nt

[Codeine]

18. People have the freedom to do dumb things to themselves.

I wouldn’t encourage anyone I know to box, but who am I to tell them they can’t? Animals aren’t choosing to subject themselves to this level of specialized breeding and subsequent dangerous activity.

[Cartoonist]

37. Choices

I don't mean to stereotype boxers. I could be all wrong, but when someone lives in reduced circumstances, and the only opportunity to get ahead is to be a boxer, I can see that choice. I still don't like it.

[VOX]

34. I think Muhammad Ali's long, visible decline was the death-knell for boxing.

Ali himself once said (without his usual bravado), “When I quit boxing, the game died, didn’t it?” He was right. It’s staggered along since, too many belts, flame-outs like Mike Tyson, venues narrowed down to gambling centers like Atlantic City and Las Vegas.

[Harker]

42. It seems as though some people will pay

to see someone else hurt, whether it's a human or a horse.

[VOX]

63. Yes. That, and a general lack of empathy.

Years ago, I used to be a big boxing, horse racing, and football fan. But as I matured, I began to perceive the pain, damage and physical breakdown caused by these “sports.” I no longer care to support (even by passively watching) these destructive diversions.

[Harker]

79. Agreed.

There's no legitimate reason for full-power contact sports or animal abuse.

[Ferrets are Cool]

82. And yet, the extremely brutal "sport" of MMA is thriving...

when the ONLY thing being attempted is to give the other person a concussion or worse. And there are idiots who pay to watch that. Much of humanity is no more mentally advanced now than in the 3rd century BC when gladiatorial combat is though to have begun.

[TommyCelt]

56. Add greyhound racing as well...

These poor dogs are raced for maybe 3 years, and then unceremoniously put down. There are some great greyhound rescues organizations out there (a couple here on Long Island NY), but the dogs who make it that far are the lucky ones.

[EarnestPutz]

80. Idaho had Greyhound racing at Stateline a few years back. When someone...

....found a dozen dead dogs at the county landfill, destroyed because they too old to race, at three years. There was quite a backlash. They fought it for a while with an "Adopt a Greyhound" program, but the track folded eventually.

[Submariner]

14. Paso Fino horses

I was watching a Paso Fino competition on TV in Latin America and was very impressed at how the horses trotted so quickly, and they trotted on a wooden plank flooring in the arena, which gave a synchronous clopping sound as they moved down the track.

What I was told later was many of those horses undergo a lot of abuse to train them to high step like that, and that they develop painful lag injuries.

I think we need to stop torture training techniques with our friend the horse.

[Codeine]

19. That's just awful.

Someone is getting rich on that abuse.

[cwydro]

20. There are some of those fans here on this board.

Somehow I doubt they’ll answer your question.

[TeamPooka]

50. Why bother answering when their mindset seems baked in.

[Codeine]

55. I really am genuinely curious.

Obviously we aren’t going to agree, but if you’re a fan how do you feel about the fact that it’s so common for injuries resulting in death to be baked in to the sport?

[TeamPooka]

57. Your question comes arcoss as totally condemning, not "curious." as does this reply

Enjoy your high horse.

[Codeine]

58. Suit yourself.

I’ve got no power over you, and my difference in opinion shouldn’t be meaningful enough to shut down a conversation, but you do you.

[Mosby]

21. I read an article about french horse racing recently

They don't have any of the problems like we do here in the US, the horses are so healthy some can still race at 10 years old.

The main differences was longer races, softer tracks and the French don't allow drugs like lasix.

Eta:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/05/15/i-train-racehorses-france-they-live-long-love-their-jobs/

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

22. Check out this short documentary from The Atlantic

A look at the Kentucky Derby:

[Coventina]

23. Agreed. I notice that no fans are able to defend the practice.

Because there is no defense.

[oldsoftie]

24. Florida recently outlawed dog racing for much the same reasoning.

Finished by 2021.
I've never been a fan of animals used for sport, since they have no say in the matter

[Codeine]

25. Nice!

Weird that it hung on as long as it did.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

26. ITA.

[maxsolomon]

27. All sports destroy the bodies of their athletes.

Except, I guess, non-sports like darts. But I bet dart players wind up with chronic wrist and arm injuries.

Collectively, society has decided that it's worth the cost. All you can do is refuse to participate.

[Codeine]

29. And destroying your body for a sport

is fine as long as you’re the one making the decision. There was a time I thought I might be good enough to participate at a professional level in a sport, but I peaked early and suddenly everyone outdeveloped me and I was left in the proverbial dust. I’d have happily chosen the inevitable damage to compete at that level.

But horses (and dogs, bulls, fighting fish, whatever else people get up to when they’re bored and they’ve got some poor animals around) don’t have agency. We shouldn’t risk their lives for literally a moment of our fun.

[maxsolomon]

31. good point.

nt

[Doremus]

85. I agree and take it a step further to say that we shouldn't take their lives for selfish desires.

We slaughter millions upon millions of cattle, pigs, chickens, lambs, and all sorts of other sentient beings because we have a craving for a steak.

To paraphrase your last sentence, we shouldn't risk their lives for literally a moment of our selfish wants.

[Codeine]

86. Absolutely!

I love compassionate DUers!

[in2herbs]

28. This statistic may be a few years old but here is some info: "The 2012 candidate for the Triple

Crown, I'll Have Another, was pulled from the history of racing because his injuries could no longer be medicated away. A comprehensive disclosure of the physical condition of this young horse appeared in a July 11, 2012 article in The New York Times written by Joe Drape and Walt Bogdanich. A few of the article's findings bear repeating and remembering, to wit: "Those officials are aware that American racing continues to be among the world's leaders in catastrophic breakdown of horses . . .". "Twenty-four horses die each week at the nation's racetracks, according to an analysis in the The Times and they break down or show signs of injury at the rate of 5.1 per 1,000 starts. This past winter, 30 horses died at Aqueduct racetrack in New York, a 100 percent increase in the fatality rate over the same period the previous year."

According to statistics 2,128 Thoroughbred foals were born in 1919, as compared to 32,187 Thoroughbred foals in 2009. And, of those 32,187 Thoroughbred foals, only 20 earned enough money to qualify for the Kentucky Derby.

Thoroughbreds love to run. I'd hate for the sport to disappear, but I do want the money and tax advantages to disappear and I firmly believe that no horse should race until the age of 5. When Merv Griffin was an owner he absolved himself of all financial duty to the horse when the horse could no longer run. All race horse owners should be required to financially care for the horse beyond it's racing years.

If I remember correctly, a few years ago, one of the Triple Crown horses was located in Japan, ready for slaughter. Luckily it was rescued.

[CloudWatcher]

30. "This isn't the same as humans being injured in sport"

I might take exception to that. I'm still waiting for kids being allowed to play tackle football to be considered child abuse.

[Codeine]

35. That's maybe more complicated

but I’m inclined to agree with you.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. The sport is terrible on jockeys, as well.

[lunatica]

33. I'm in total agreement with you

All animal abuse should be stopped. Period. End of discussion. If training an animal requires abuse then that training should be outlawed.

[SCVDem]

36. Simply put

If you eliminate racing, you have also eliminated the need for a Thoroughbred.
The horse is bred to run and without a need for racing, there is no need for the breed.

You aren't advocating equine genocide, are you?

[Coventina]

39. Equine genocide? Are you being serious right now?

Nobody is going to kill Thoroughbreds en masse.

Or, if you are suggesting that they would kill them, without horse racing, that's a tell in itself.

It again suggests that there is no value in the horse itself, beyond entertainment for humans. How cold. How cruel.

Horses exist in a rainbow of breeds, most artificially created by us. (Like dogs).

Sure, Thoroughbreds as as breed would diminish and maybe even disappear, but that doesn't mean horses will.

And if people are going to kill their horses because they can't race them, well, that shows them for the monsters they really are.

[SCVDem]

61. Don't hurt yourself stretching.

I only meant that minus the money, t breds will not be bred and there would be little incentive to spend so much on a breed which can only run. So much for retirement farms.
See also greyhounds.

[Coventina]

64. Thanks for proving my point. It is only about human greed. n/t

[SCVDem]

66. What isn't?

We traffic in humans?

Always greed!

[Coventina]

69. Human trafficking is illegal, as should horse-racing be.

[Codeine]

41. I'm a regular Horse Hitler.

[LanternWaste]

51. Doesn't fit within the parameters of the United Nations Genocide Convention.

"You aren't being purposefully obtuse, are you?"
(six of one, half a dozen of the other... and each as without merit as the other)

[Ferrets are Cool]

83. You must be joking.

The rules here will not let me say what my mind is thinking.

[3catwoman3]

38. Animals should not have to perform...

...in order that humans might be entertained.

[Liberty Belle]

43. I've refused to go to local group's events held at the Del Mar Racetrack,

which has also had way too many horses euthanized and should be shut down.

I told the organizers of the groups, which included a local Democratic club, why I objected and urged them to find a new venue to hold their social gatherings in the future. This is animal abuse, pure and simple.

If they could regulate it as the French do to prevent injuries or keep the number very minimal, I would rethink that. But the problem seems to be worse and worse each you. It has to be mainly drugs -- the track here is the same length its been since the Hollywood heydey when stars like Jimmy Durante frequented the track.

I also believe bullfighting should be banned everywhere, as it's even worse--a "sport" where the intent is to torture then kill an animal.

[Texin]

45. I refuse to watch horse racing or go to the track.

The quarter horse racing world is especially brutal to the animals. I used to have an Arabian that we would show at halter in competition. Working with the horse in training at stables exposed me to trainers and handlers who had horrific stories about how quarter horses (and thoroughbreds as well) were treated in the racing world.

The horse's most delicate anatomical point are their legs and hooves. Racing can and frequently does result in life-ending injuries, and the most humane thing for the animal is humane euthanasia, though there are some owners who try to save them through some pretty extreme medical procedures (usually because some of them are valuable for breeding if they are from champion bloodstock or they themselves are successful). Many racers are genuinely competitive - they aren't "trained" that way. A horse loves to run and they can and do injure themselves from their own exertions completely outside any track. It's the nature of the beast, but they are definitely exploited and very often maltreated by owners and handlers. It's a cutthroat business. That's a fact.

[watoos]

46. You aren't going to like bull fighting either.

[Coventina]

47. Nobody with a conscience does. n/t

[watoos]

53. Oh, I agree,

have you ever seen how they hunt wild boar with pit bulls?

[Coventina]

59. No I haven't, but the depths of human depravity have no bottom. n/t

[Codeine]

52. At least the bulls get to gore someone occasionally. nt

[johnnyknj]

48. As a longtime racehorse owner and racing fan

I have to say that there is no true justification. Race horses are bred to race, and often get hurt or even die racing and training. The reasons for this are many, and the discussion of why American racing is more dangerous than European or Asian is long and complicated. We can and must improve safety in the U.S., but horses will still get hurt and die. It boils down to what are you willing to accept - should animals be used for the pleasure or profit of people? Most in racing are intellectually dishonest about this - they talk about how well the horses are treated, etc. and about doing "what's best for the horse". In truth, what's best for the horse is living in a big paddock with plenty of forage and good care. Anytime you start using animals for human purpose, whether it's dog shows, pleasure riding, cock fighting or food, you have left what's best for the animal far behind. The issue is a can of worms to be sure.

[Codeine]

54. I have great respect for your honesty.

No attempt at obfuscation or half-assed rationalisms.

[Blue_true]

87. You gave a well thought out answer.

I agree that anytime an animal is used for work, sport, pleasure events like riding, catching frisbees, food, the issue is no longer what is best for the animal because as you pointed out, what's best for the animal is to be fed and given water and walk around at it's own pace for life. So using animals for anything but what is best for them boils down to giving a rationalization to justify the other uses.

I am a meateater. I try to justify that by buying "humanely" treated animal products, like something living only a tiny fraction of it's natural life is humane. I see the moral contradiction, I trully do, but I have conceptualized it and seldom think when I eat a piece of chicken or eggs.

[RainCaster]

49. The genetics are AFU

In Shutzhund, genetics plays an important role. If your Champion develops displasia, s/he is no longer allowed to breed. In horse racing having a stable full of mares that create fragile limbed progeny is an acceptable investment.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

60. I'm inclined to believe that the inbred nature of the thoroughbreds

is a very large part of the problem. Every single one can be traced back to something like two or three ancestor horses several centuries ago. I once read that a huge problem is that the breeding has produced thinner and thinner legs, which cannot tolerate the racing.

Many purebred dogs are likewise in dire straits because of the breeding.

As for backyard horses, they may still be around, but feeding a horse is so expensive that abandoned horses became a huge problem at least here in New Mexico during the Great Recession.

[Fresh_Start]

62. how on earth do football fans

rationalize the fact that their entertainment is built on the foundation of lifetime brain injuries?

It is as bad...the fact that some humans are desperate for the attention does not excuse it.

[Coventina]

65. Not a football fan, but it's not the same.

Humans are desperate for attention because they've prioritized that attention over their own safety.

That's a choice that they have made.

The horses are not given that choice.

[Fresh_Start]

70. I don't think that someone who's been brainwashed since peewee football

is making a choice.

They are brainwashed.

[Coventina]

71. What you are saying is hogwash. Adults are responsible for their decisions except under

very specific, legally defined circumstances.

[Fresh_Start]

72. People do not start football as adults.

they start football as children...frequently pre-teen children.

so the decision was made BEFORE they were adults.

[Coventina]

76. And the Vast Majority of them QUIT when they become adults.

The ones that don't make a CHOICE to continue.

Your assertion that football players are hypnotized zombies is absurd!

I worked with an NFL / Arena Football hopeful. He tried out for a number of teams, including going through professional training and practice games, etc.

He was extremely bright and was fully aware of the risks he was taking. To him, it was worth it because he loved the game and loved playing it.

He eventually quit trying out because he developed another health problem, unrelated to football, and had to accept that his playing days were over due to that.

Horses love to run, but they are NOT fully informed of the risks they are taking by "going pro". It is not the same at all.

[Codeine]

67. I draw a distinction between people

exercising free will and animals forced to perform but I can appreciate the view of those who feel both are wrong. And that being said, I can’t watch sports like football or boxing. I still watch Formula1 but that has become amazingly safe since the Bad Old Days of multiple drivers being killed every season.

[Coventina]

68. Off topic, but did you hear about Niki Lauda passing yesterday?

I was unexpectedly moved by the news.

[Codeine]

74. Very sad, but on the other hand

he did manage to tear 40+ years right out of the Grim Reaper’s hands by dint of sheer bad-assery.

[Coventina]

77. Very true. He was a really remarkable person, and I think his life experiences led to the many

changes in Formula 1 that make it such a safe sport now.

[Codeine]

78. Yep. He and Jackie Stewart saved a lot of lives. nt

[Fresh_Start]

73. I don't expect children to make mature informed decisions

in particular for male children, they brain maturity is even further lagging than female children.

Virtually all people who play football start as children.
They made the decision (or their parents made the decision for the child)....without the emotional or other capability to make an informed decision.

[Codeine]

75. This is true

and complicates the issue immensely. I wouldn’t allow my children to play football. On the other hand my daughter plays full-contact roller derby, so I am perhaps a lesser parent than I would admit.

[leftyladyfrommo]

84. Here is one excuse I have heard.

Well, they live the good life while they are in training.

That one absolutely floored me.

I hate the idea of any animals being used for gambling sports. Whenever money is involved the animals lose.

[Ferrets are Cool]

81. The same way that Greyhound racing is allowed to exist...

and after they stop winning, they are put down in many cases.

It's despicable.

[Mendocino]

88. Iditarod,

rodeo, fishing tournaments, live pigeon shoots...the endless suffering of animals under the guise of sport.

[Codeine]

91. You're 100% correct.

It seems like we’re coming to a tipping point with a lot of these things though. Perhaps a sea change is at hand.

[GulfCoast66]

89. I love watching horse racing. Hate the drugging which causes many of the problems.

Thoroughbreds are all descendants of 3 horses. We made them to run and they love to run and race.

Can and should we make it safer. Of course and it will have to happen.

But any riding of horses increases the chance of injury to the animal. Even trail riding has its risk, albeit much lower than horse racing.

I know I am in the vast minority on this thread, but I don’t like the idea of not stating my views because I might get beat up.

With very few exception every horse breed was created by man for a specific purpose.

And unlike bullfighting the goal is not to harm the animal. Quite the opposite. Does it happen, sadly yes.

And since this is a political site wanted to point out horse back riding or even racing is not a partisan issue.

[Demovictory9]

90. Plus 1000

[marble falls]

93. Probably does need to go. I HATE rodeos, circuses and zoos. But I love watching horses races.

... and they seem eager to race. We always had horses and my sister was a rated hunt rider in Ohio.

One of her horses was Vray's Bid. Just a great thoroughbred who didn't make it in racing. He was a proud performer in the ring and in a five gaited competition, he'd have to be held back at the gallop or he'd try to race.

It's not the track or horses that's the dirty part: it's the trickery, "doctoring" , the insurance scamery, abuse and murder of horses by humans that is inhumane and sickening.