Snowy (my dog) and I were attacked this morning

[mnhtnbb]

on our regular morning walk. Now that weather is warmer, more homeless people are sleeping on the streets and out early in the morning. We have a regular morning route here in downtown Raleigh that goes from the apartment building up to Fayetteville Street and on up and around the State Capitol Building if Snowy is feeling like she wants to walk that far.

There are people out and about. Other dog walkers. People going to the YMCA to work out. Getting coffee. Going to work. City workers cleaning up the streets.

We had just passed the Y and I noticed a homeless woman I've seen on our walks. She was sitting at a metal table and chairs next to a pizza restaurant. All of a sudden she stands up, picks up one of the other chairs and starts toward us, then heaves the chair up over her head and throws it at us! I barely jumped out of the way but didn't pull Snowy fast enough. The chair just touched Snowy coming down, but didn't hurt her. I yelled at the woman not to do that! She turns around, picks up another chair and starts heading toward us. I hollered at a guy coming towards us from across the street--with his phone out--to call 911 and we took off up the street. Didn't have my phone with me. Went in to the Raleigh Times (a restaurant) asked to use their phone and called 911.

We waited outside the restaurant for the police--saw 3 police cars going down one street over--but couldn't wait any longer because Snowy needed to finish her walk! When we were walking back, I saw a police car stopped at the plaza where this woman attacked us, so I went over and made the report. They had arrested her. She was known to them. She had taken off the other direction and someone with a phone followed her.

One of the public workers who cleans up the streets came up to me after I'd left the Raleigh Times and gave me his name as a witness.

About 30% of homeless are mentally ill. Most of them are not violent. This woman was one of the few who is dangerous. I told the officer that she was probably in need of a 72 hour hold to be evaluated. Off her meds? Or never had any meds? Or has no family to monitor she takes her meds?

It's really a very sad situation.

We were no threat to this woman and probably weren't even closer than 20 feet to her, but she still attacked us.

Be careful out there!

[femmocrat]

1. Thank God you weren't hurt!

You had great presence of mind though. I hope Snowy wasn’t traumatized by the attack.

[mnhtnbb]

3. Nothing phases Snowy.

She is very chill. People want to pet her and tell me how pretty she is. I had hopes of training her as a therapy dog when I adopted her (she's a rescue), but she is somewhat indifferent to attention. She really didn't have the personality.

When we were talking to 2 police officers and a third security type person who patrols downtown, Snowy just stood by my side. The security guy bent down to pet her and she was fine with it. They could all see the dog was no threat. It's possible seeing the dog was what triggered the woman, even though there wasn't a hint of aggression from Snowy.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. This sounds like a great opportunity to think about what alternatives to a police response

might look like in a similar situation.

[mnhtnbb]

4. The people on the street came to help

while Snowy and I got away. I think the man with the phone followed the woman so she couldn't elude police. The city worker who flagged me down when I left the restaurant wanted me to know he was willing to be a witness for a police report.

The police were on it. They are really present downtown.

The barrista in the restaurant brought me a bottle of water while I was waiting outside for the police. He even brought out a cup for Snowy!

And the police drove up to the scene waiting to see if I'd return, which I did.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. I mean having the police not be involved at all, since mental health response is neither their

mission nor their expertise.

[Oneironaut]

24. I'm not sure if there's an alternative, though.

I see what you’re saying, as cops are essentially a hammer coming in to hit things that aren’t necessarily nails, but short of restraining someone like that, what are you supposed to do? They aren’t in their right mind, and they might have a knife or something. It’s not like you can walk up and reason with them.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

29. A mental health crisis response team could be a good start.

[kag]

27. I'm not sure the goal needs to keep the cops out of it.

I think the goal should be to teach cops (and the rest of the CJ system) how to deal with mentally ill individuals without making matters worse for the victim OR the offender.

At least, that's my take.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Dealing with people struggling with mental illness through an inherently violent and

oppressive frame of the incarceration industrial complex helps no one.

[Hortensis]

40. Urban cops all become pros in dealing with mentally

ill people on the streets, and most would have had some training. After all, who would come to know the people who are mentally ill on their streets and their situations better than them, especially the ones prone to interactions with people with phones? They work every day with the reality of chronically desperately underfunded mental health services and the realities of mental illness that cannot be cured.

[H2O Man]

38. That may depend

upon what state you are in. Because of the overlap in mental illness and criminal behaviors -- with the instance in the OP being an obvious example -- numerous states do provide serious trainings for police on dealing with people suffering from mental illness. Indeed, this often includes dealing with situations where no law has been broken, but the individual has been deemed a potential threat to themself of others, and law enforcement is tasked with bringing them to a facility to be evaluated. I taught state, county, and local police in upstate New York through the State University. It is considered an important part of their job duties.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

41. A week of training doesn't change the mission of the police force.

I don't believe reform is possible and would rather see a complete dismantling of the police as we understand it.

[H2O Man]

43. Right.

A week wouldn't.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

45. What was your curriculum?

[H2O Man]

46. I taught dealing

with the mentally ill in the community, especially those with severe and persistent mental illnesses. It was similar to the semesters I did with graduate students, except I often took those folks out in the field on crises calls. Of course, there are some differences between mental health crisis workers and police when approaching someone at their home ....we generally try to get inside, whereas the police want the person to come outside their house/apartment, for example.

I'm retired now, but over the years I went on calls with regional police, or called them to some homes. It can be easier if those police know and trust a social worker, although there can come a point where my role was rapidly reduced. If a person had a gun, for example, I stayed back.

Other police were curious. In the classroom, a few questioned if I was "really" a crises worker, since I had long hair. Really. Others had difficulty accepting that taking a person to a hospital for evaluation is distinct from a criminal arrest. And some were simply cruel. Bullies with a badge.

When I was teaching, I also tried to provide a general knowledge of the major mental illnesses, personality disorders, and the comorbidity of substance abuse.

[Mariana]

42. In this case, the person is clearly dangerous

and in fact has committed a violent crime. Calling the police is the correct thing to do, regardless of the mental health status of the attacker.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

5. I do some volunteer work at a local homeless shelter.

I'd guess that 30% of homeless being mentally ill is an underestimate. Even if someone becomes homeless when in perfectly good mental health, long term it seems hard to hold on to normalcy.

That is just by personal, non professional opinion.

[mnhtnbb]

7. Here is an article with some current estimates

I was married to a psychiatrist for 33 years. We were living in L.A. when we got married. So these statistics seem to still hold for there. They might be different in other parts of the country.

https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-mentally-ill-homeless-20170807-htmlstory.html

I have not felt threatened by homeless here in Raleigh. I have been living here in downtown Raleigh for over a year, walking the dog several times a day. Nothing has been disturbing until this last week. We were aggressively panhandled by a white guy one morning, but we just walked away. Most of the homeless on the street are men. Yet it was a woman who attacked us. Only 2 blocks away is a restaurant run by women which promotes itself as dedicated to ending homelessness for women.

https://www.carrollskitchen.org/search

[Hortensis]

39. Somewhat under half was my personal notion in SoCal urban areas,

weighted toward mostly...just homeless and without support structure, but there are vast ranges of mental disabilities of course. And my experiences were scattered and on streets, not at a homeless shelter.

I was overtly threatened only a couple of times or felt in possible danger a few more, and neutral/positive interactions with seemingly rational people far outnumbered them. Including the two times I parked because my car was developing trouble, and homeless men came over to see if they could help. And did.

I'm glad the woman in Mnht's encounter was able to save herself from him, poor thing. She must be very brave.

[Delmette2.0]

6. We really need to help people as much as we can.

I realize that some people will refuse assistance, but we need to keep trying.

[irisblue]

8. It might be time to carry your phone with you on walks

Consider what could happen if you wrench a knee or ankle.

I'm very glad this turned out with no loss of life or permanent injury to Snowy or you

[mnhtnbb]

12. It's part of life in the city.

People are around and helped. People are friendly. It's the south.

There's no way I could have handled the phone and the dog until I'd gotten away from the woman. But, yes, you are right. If I fell, someone would probably be there to help before I could get my phone out of my pocket. It's the city and there is always someone on the street.

[irisblue]

19. That is good to know.

When I walked my dogs, it was daily past many houses who were at work,
and on the weekend, in city parks with lots of others around.

I'm glad you & Snowy are good

[elleng]

9. :sad:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. Omigod, my dear mnhtnbb!

I'm horrified at what happened to you and Snowy, and extremely relieved that you both are OK.

You sure stayed level-headed and calm, and that is very good.

I hope the woman gets the help she obviously needs.

[smirkymonkey]

11. So sorry for your ordeal!

Sounds like you and Snowy had quite a fright! I am glad that you are both ok.

I hope this woman gets the help and care that she needs.

[demigoddess]

14. Maybe if we had universal health care these mentally ill would be put in a

hospital and evaluated and treated. Then with help they could get their lives together. Mentally ill people with no treatment can't manage in this day and age.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Mental health parity is paramount.

It is just as important as coverage for physical illness, but insurance companies don't want to pay, or pay very little. It's is an issue we really need to address in this country because there are too many people suffering with no safety net. It's so tragic.

[demigoddess]

22. seems to me that living on the streets, mentally ill, no money, job or

access to bathrooms would lead to many physical health problems. Getting them into healthy living situation would save health care money, whether it is physical or mental.

[smirkymonkey]

25. I agree. Both are important. But mental health problems often lead to

physical problems. These people are often unable to take care of themselves, so addressing their mental health is also important. They need all the help they can get. If it were up to me, I would support opening back up the state mental institutions, although with much better, more humane care. It would address all of their issues.

[mnhtnbb]

13. Snowy is totally unaffected.

She is napping.

[smirkymonkey]

20. Awww!

Snowy is so adorable! I'm glad she (he?) is sleeping peacefully.

[JudyM]

32. Direwolf?

[mnhtnbb]

33. She's my white wolf!

[JudyM]

34. A beauty.

(Hug her for me).

[Vinca]

16. That must have been terrifying. Glad you're both okay.

[Skidmore]

17. Noting

that whether you were a threat or not, if she was decompensating and violence is part of her behavior at such times, she was not in a space to think rationally. It was good she got help. We need treatment programs and funding desperately.

[Ferrets are Cool]

21. Thank you Ronald Raygun, you fucking piece of chit...

stuff like this is on YOUR hands.

[mnhtnbb]

31. It really is.

It really started with him changing the treatment model. Then you add the Vietnam War with all the vets coming home who needed both physical and mental health services. Many of them ended up on the streets. Sprinkle in a recession or two with high unemployment. Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Domestic violence. Racism.

It's a mess with no satisfactory way to handle homelessness or mental health needs.

[Ferrets are Cool]

35. It began in California, when he was Governor...

and continued unabated during his 'reign' as President. This piece describes it pretty well...

"One month prior to the election [in 1980], President Carter had signed the Mental Health Systems Act, which had proposed to continue the federal community mental health centers program, although with some additional state involvement. Consistent with the report of the Carter Commission, the act also included a provision for federal grants “for projects for the prevention of mental illness and the promotion of positive mental health,” an indication of how little learning had taken place among the Carter Commission members and professionals at NIMH. With President Reagan and the Republicans taking over, the Mental Health Systems Act was discarded before the ink had dried and the CMHC funds were simply block granted to the states. The CMHC program had not only died but been buried as well. An autopsy could have listed the cause of death as naiveté complicated by grandiosity."

You can read the rest of the sordid story here if you want:

https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/

[mnhtnbb]

36. Yes. My husband was a practicing psychiatrist in California at the time.

He finished his residency in the early 1970's. His practice was part time as clinical faculty from UCLA assigned to the Sepulveda VA and part time private practice until 1988 when we moved out of California.


This is an interesting review of the mental health treatment issues of the 50 years from 1950 to 2000, but it does not address homeless people with chronic mental illness.

Abstract


The last half-century of psychiatric services in the United States is examined through developments and trends reported in the 50 years of publication of Psychiatric Services. The journal, earlier named Mental Hospitals and then Hospital and Community Psychiatry, was launched by the American Psychiatric Association in January 1950 and marks its 50th anniversary this year. The author organizes his review of psychiatric services largely around the locus of care and treatment because the location of treatment—institution versus community—has been the battleground for the ideology of care and for the crystallization of policy and legal reform. He uses "dehospitalization" to describe the movement of patients out of state hospitals, rejecting the widely used term "deinstitutionalization" as inappropriate; one reason is that the term wrongly implies that many settings where patients ended up were not institutional. Also covered in detail, as reflected in the journal, are community care and treatment, economics, patient empowerment, and the interface issues of general hospitals, outpatient commitment, and psychosocial rehabilitation. The author notes that some concepts, such as outpatient commitment and patient empowerment, emerged earlier than now assumed, and that others, like psychosocial rehabilitation, recurred in slightly different forms over time. He concludes that even after 50 years of moving patients out of state hospitals and putting them somewhere else, mental health policymakers and practitioners remain too myopically focused on the locus of care and treatment instead of on the humaneness, effectiveness, and quality of care.

https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/ps.51.1.41

[Ferrets are Cool]

37. +1

[Hekate]

49. My first MIL worked at Atascadero State as a psychologist part of her career...

To the end of her days she never forgave Ronald Reagan for what he did.

She's been gone some 40 years -- I'm glad there are others to remember.

"Saint Ronnie" my ass.

[Solly Mack]

23. Hugs to you both. I'm so sorry!

[redstatebluegirl]

26. Glad you were not hurt!

We have closed so many mental health hospitals and shelters that the mentally ill are forced to the street if they don't have family who can handle them.

I have a nephew like this, thankfully my sister is a saint and takes care of him, tries to make sure he takes his meds etc. There is so much that needs to fixed in this country regarding mental health issues you can't list them.

Once again, glad you and your fur baby are ok.

[steventh]

28. your phone is as important as shoes before you go out

Take it from one who has worked with the mentally ill for decades. I know your neighborhood. Very well. Take your phone. Your life and Snowy's are precious.

[Catherine Vincent]

44. Thank you

I am always weary of the homeless because some of them are mental. I try not to get too close or make contact. Glad that you and your dog are ok. You just never know. An incident happened recently in my city where this elderly lady and her daughter were exiting a grocery store and passed a homeless guy in a wheel chair. As they passed him, he reached out and hit the woman and knocked her over. He stood there a while and left the scene. So far he has not been found.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/video-man-punches-88-year-old-woman-outside-houston-h-e-b

[davsand]

47. I work across the hall from a social service agency.

They serve clients who are in dire need--homeless people are regulars, and it's a good day when somebody gets off the street or into treatment. EVERY single person in that office is there because they truly believe in the mission of helping when possible. They rarely call the police because they know full well that a lot of the folks they see have no resources for bail money and quite possibly have a "history" of unfortunate contacts with police.

I watched a woman facing eviction notice going off the rails at one of the staff next door. I saw him (he stands over 6 feet tall, and grew up pretty hard) step back into the office and lock the door leaving that woman in the entryway screaming. She wasn't screaming words, mind you. She was simply screaming as loud as she could while standing with clenched fists. It was truly a disturbing and pathetic thing to see.

They didn't call the police. They let her scream herself out, then they unlocked to door and went out to talk to her. Last thing I heard was she still got evicted, but they were able to get her into a clean safe place. They knew that it was quite probable that without some mental health care she'll end up evicted again. They tried to set her up with some help and she never showed up at any of those appointments. Involuntary commission is a really difficult bar to clear, and it was the opinion of her caseworker that it was just not enough documentation of her issues to get her into a forced help situation.

So, this lady--who was clearly a danger to somebody at one point in time, and who remains a danger to herself, is still walking around out there.

[mnhtnbb]

48. I have not changed the route for my morning walk BUT

I think I saw the same woman two days ago and this morning sleeping/sitting on one of the park benches (bolted to the sidewalk). I had no intention of getting close enough to be able to identify her. Snowy and I crossed the street long before we were near her in order to continue our walk.

I have since the incident last week thought that I may have had another interaction with the same woman several weeks ago in a different location and time of day when out with Snowy on her noon walk. It may not be the same woman, but the same height/build/general description would fit. IF it is the same woman, it was the dog which set her off. Several weeks ago, we were walking along and a woman got very upset and yelling at me to keep the dog away from her. I always do control Snowy--because some people have a fear of dogs--but we never go out for a walk that someone doesn't want to pet her or ask me her breed or tell me how pretty she is. That wouldn't matter to someone with a deathly fear of dogs--maybe bitten by a dog--or just with an irrational fear of any dog.

It could have been the same woman. I don't know. Seeing the dog could have triggered her. Or it might not have been the same woman and she just decided to take after us. I don't know.

I'm not taking any chances again getting close to anyone resembling the woman who attacked us. I have my eyeballs peeled in the morning for her.