Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies

[lapucelle]

As a mother of six and a Mormon, I have a good understanding of arguments surrounding abortion, religious and otherwise. When I hear men discussing women’s reproductive rights, I’m often left with the thought that they have zero interest in stopping abortion.

If you want to prevent abortion, you need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Men seem unable (or unwilling) to admit that they cause 100% of them.

I realize that’s a bold statement. You’re likely thinking, “Wait. It takes two to tango!” While I fully agree with you in the case of intentional pregnancies, I argue that all unwanted pregnancies are caused by the irresponsible ejaculations of men. All of them.

You can read the rest here.

https://humanparts.medium.com/men-cause-100-of-unwanted-pregnancies-eb0e8288a7e5

[Laffy Kat]

1. I've always said this: No ejaculation no pregnancy.

It's so simple but they insist it's the woman's fault. They need to be called out and reminded every. single. time.

[lapucelle]

2. One of the guys at work actually said

No, it's a woman's responsibility because it's her body."

Ye, indeed. It's her body.

[2naSalit]

5. And...

"her body" only gets pregnant after a male uses her body for pleasure.

[lapucelle]

20. Her body...her choice. N/T

[2naSalit]

147. Exactly...nt

[Laffy Kat]

9. I would have a difficult time not smacking that co-worker.

[smirkymonkey]

47. You are too kind.

I would have been a bit more "convincing".

[Farmer-Rick]

14. It is her body but....

Only when blaming (someone for an unwanted pregnancy).

It's No Longer Her Body when it becomes pregnant because of what a man did. Once it's pregnant, the body belongs to the state (and the religiously insane criminals who currently rule it). Then the state will prevent the woman from using her body to get a medical procedure that only requires a couple of pills. Talk about government control over our lives.

So, it seems the state, especially the poorest, owns a woman's body. So, is it hers or is it the governments? You can't have it both ways.

[pazzyanne]

28. The thing that really "gets my goat" is that the party

bringing the government into people's personal lives is the "small government" party - republicans. They can't have it both ways is right!

[Arazi]

35. That guy freely gave away his sperm. Once he gave it to her she gets to decide what happens

Because he's right, it's now in her body. He gave it away and now he has zero rights to whatever she decides to do with it

[CousinIT]

54. BINGO! That's my take on it too. n/t

[2naSalit]

148. ...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

4. Wrong. Your premises are both wrong. Anytime someone says "it's so simple", be sure that it is not.

1) There is in vitro fertilization.

1b) There are women who take sperm donation at a fertility clinic.

2) No ovulation no pregnancy.

Before people get too bent out of shape, please also read my first post in this thread.

[2naSalit]

7. Horse pucky...

women to do not create sperm which is required to fertilize an ova, it is that simple. If sperm is placed inside her body, a pregnancy can occur... at least it has been that way throughout known history. How it gets there is quite often not the woman's choice which is where unwanted pregnancies come from, it's that simple.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. :eyes: Men do not create ova, which is required. It is that simple.

Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

Then you go and equivocate and agree with me by using the word "often" allowing as I wrote that it is sometimes the woman's choice to have an unwanted pregnancy, which the man might not want or the couple together might not want or the woman.

[2naSalit]

15. This isn't about what men want...

it is about women choosing what they do with their own bodies. Equivocation is making the claims you have. Please avoid making this red herring argument... many men, and some women, are out to make mandatory men's ability to control every aspect of a female life without consent of the female. That is what this is about, the biological factors make male dominance over women easier, that is all. Until females are actually equal to males in all law and social norm, this will continue to be the issue and an ongoing travesty.

[mountain grammy]

27. Well said. Excellent response.

[pazzyanne]

30. Right on target!

Could not have said this better myself. Thank you 2naSalit!

[smirkymonkey]

49. Hear, hear!

Thank YOU!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

56. Women's control of their own bodies is paramount. But the OP is wrong.

Both your posts use the word "some" or "often" meaning that you disagree with the 100% responsible claim in the OP.

Look, we are agreed that women have the right to choose what they do with their own bodies. The OP damages our common position with a provocative but factually and logically wrong statement. It is emphatic about 100% and binary thinking like that is less than useless.

[Farmer-Rick]

18. But obviously the pregnancies are all wanted by the state

Otherwise they wouldn't be in the process of ending the right to a simple medical procedure that would end those pregnancies. So, in the end, it really doesn't matter what the sperm donor or egg donor want.

It is all in the control of the government.

[lapucelle]

21. You just said "It is that simple" in support of your own claim.

Men do not create ova, which is required. It is that simple.

and then you claimed:

Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

57. Whoosh. The post I was replying to was simplistic and I was mocking it. . . . nt

[lapucelle]

93. Uh huh

[Bernardo de La Paz]

98. A lesson in mocking that you missed

2naSalit wrote wrote a simplistic statement:

women to do not create sperm which is required to fertilize an ova, it is that simple.

Then I wrote a statement mimicking that style, with a followup editorial comment making it clear (to almost all) that I was mocking the statement:

:eyes: Men do not create ova, which is required. It is that simple.

Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

Notice how the "it is that simple" is in quotes. Now, take your time and find that text in 2nasalt's excerpt. Notice how my reply title mirrors the structure and content of 2naSalit's sentence.

For your second exercise, notice the ":eyes:". It was in the Reply Title. If typed in a text body it comes out as a green emoji with blinking eyes that look up.

But, regardless, my commentary is a truism: Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

[lapucelle]

106. Have you figured out yet where donated sperm comes from?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

111. The point about donated sperm went over your head too. . . . nt

[lapucelle]

118. Thev "point about the donated sperm" didn't go over my head. You made a mistake.

Either you confused "ejaculation" with "intercourse" or you don't know the method of procuring sperm for donation.

I've always said this: No ejaculation no pregnancy.

It's so simple but they insist it's the woman's fault. They need to be called out and reminded every. single. time.

Wrong. Your premises are both wrong. Anytime someone says "it's so simple", be sure that it is not.

1) There is in vitro fertilization.
1b) There are women who take sperm donation at a fertility clinic.

2) No ovulation no pregnancy.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12128991

You also failed to consider that both instances you cite (in which you mistakenly conclude there was no ejaculation) are examples of wanted pregnancies.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

123. The mistake is in the article you endorsed by posting it unqualified. The article ignores other ways

[lapucelle]

128. Other ways of what? N/T

[Bernardo de La Paz]

130. Your other ways. . . . nt

[lapucelle]

131. "The article ignores other ways"... of "[my] other ways"? Other ways of what?

[LanternWaste]

170. Yeah.... that's the excuse I'd use as well. nt (part II)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

171. Oh don't be silly. There was no "excuse".

2naSalit wrote wrote a simplistic statement:

women to do not create sperm which is required to fertilize an ova, it is that simple.

Then I wrote a statement mimicking that style, with a followup editorial comment making it clear (to almost all) that I was mocking the statement:

:eyes: Men do not create ova, which is required. It is that simple.

Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

Notice how the "it is that simple" is in quotes. Now, take your time and find that text in 2nasalt's excerpt. Notice how my reply title mirrors the structure and content of 2naSalit's sentence.

For your second exercise, notice the ":eyes:". It was in the Reply Title. If typed in a text body it comes out as a green emoji with blinking eyes that look up.

But, regardless, my commentary is a truism: Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

[KentuckyWoman]

107. You are wrong.

Factually you are wrong. You are also wrong headed.

I understand. I really do. I am older and raised with blame women for it all. It is wrong. Flat wrong.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

110. The post you are replying to states that men don't create ova. You say this is factually wrong.

About that bit "that simple" I was using language that another poster used, to mock them. As the body of my post makes clear.

2naSalit wrote wrote a simplistic statement:

women to do not create sperm which is required to fertilize an ova, it is that simple.

Then I wrote a statement mimicking that style, with a followup editorial comment making it clear (to almost all) that I was mocking the statement:

:eyes: Men do not create ova, which is required. It is that simple.

Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

Notice how the "it is that simple" is in quotes. You can find that text in 2nasalt's excerpt. Notice how my reply title mirrors the structure and content of 2naSalit's sentence.

Notice the ":eyes:". It was in the Reply Title. If typed in a text body it comes out as a green emoji with blinking eyes that look up.

But, regardless, my commentary is a truism: Anytime someone says "it is that simple" be sure that is not.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

112. I wrote elsewhere in the thread "Women's control of their own bodies is paramount." Wrongheaded.

Why do you think that is wrongheaded?

I wrote that in a Reply Title so that it would be prominent.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

113. What is wrongheaded about this support for women's rights that I wrote IN THIS THREAD?

1) If a woman requires the man to use contraception, she can insist on it. Otherwise it is rape (non-consensual penetration). If the man lies about it (just as women have lied about it some times), it is a kind of a crime I think, though I'm not sure what the charge would be. Some amount of child support would be a minimum response.

2) If a woman wants a man to use a condom, she can insist on it. Otherwise it is rape. If there was coercion it is rape.

3) However, if a woman consents to unprotected or uncontracepted sex, then it is not 100% the man's responsibility. At the point, with her consent she is placing a bet and taking a risk. Otherwise, if she does not give consent, it is rape. If there was coercion it is rape. But the man is also taking a risk because he is still responsible for some amount of child support and the rest.

4) At any point in the pregnancy up to the Roe v Wade point, it is the woman's choice whether or not to continue or terminate. Period. Men do not have a right to force a birth nor to force an abortion. Period.

[zanana1]

142. Please consider this.

Woman have been oppressed for thousands of years. Just give us this one.

[ehrnst]

165. +1000.(nt)

[Texin]

45. The original poster was specifically talking about UNWANTED pregnancies.

Obviously, if a woman (or couple) seek in vitro fertilization, the pregnancy if it results is wanted.

If a woman seeks on her own to become a mother and avails herself to fertilization by seeking a donor at a sperm bank, pregnancy is desired.

And more obviously, ova do not magically become fertilized on their own.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

58. Yes. Read my first post in this thread, #3. I am specifically talking about UNWANTED pregnancies. nt

Last edited Sat May 25, 2019, 12:08 PM - Edit history (1)

[lapucelle]

86. Where did the donated sperm come from?

How do you think fertility clinics and sperm banks get the sperm?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/sperm-donation/about/pac-20395032

[LAS14]

137. Can't find a post from you earlier than this one. Note that the OP was referring to UNWANTED pregs.

[SunSeeker]

138. Neither of those instances involve unwanted pregnancy.

The article is about unwanted pregnancy.

[ehrnst]

144. No, the premises are supported by science.(nt)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

145. So, woman 100% cause wanted pregnancies, man 100% cause unwanted? Science? Not.

Or is it, as others in the thread would have it, that a man is always 100% the cause of pregnancy and woman has no agency? Not.

Or is it that woman is 100% cause of wanted pregnancies and if she decides after intercourse that she does not want a child after all, then the man is instantly 100% the cause? Not.

No, it seems that the thread is infested with ideology and emotion. In that way logic and science are ignored.

[ehrnst]

146. ....

[Bernardo de La Paz]

157. So, which group do you fall into? Scientifically?

Do you think:

A) 100% of all pregnancies are caused by women.

B) 100% of all pregnancies are caused by men.

C) 100% of all pregnancies are caused by both women and men.

D) 100% of wanted pregnancies are caused by women and 100% of all unwanted pregnancies are caused by men.

E) 100% of wanted pregnancies are caused by both women and men but all 100% of unwanted pregnancies are caused by men.

F) Most wanted pregnancies are caused by women and men together and some unwanted pregnancies are caused by women and most unwanted pregnancies are caused by men.

Selection partly depends on whether you believe children should be planned for by both people or not.

Absolutism is almost always ludicrous and can be disastrous.

[ehrnst]

160. .....

The False Dilemma fallacy occurs when an argument offers a false range of choices and requires that you pick one of them. The range is false because there may be other, unstated choices which would only serve to undermine the original argument. If you concede to pick one of those choices, you accept the premise that those choices are indeed the only ones possible. Usually, only two choices are presented, thus the term "False Dilemma"; however, sometimes there are three (trilemma) or more choices offered.

This is sometimes referred to as the "Fallacy of the Excluded Middle" because it can occur as a misapplication of the Law of the Excluded Middle. This "law of logic" stipulates that with any proposition, it must be either true or false; a "middle" option is "excluded". When there are two propositions, and you can demonstrate that either one or the other must logically be true, then it is possible to argue that the falsehood of one logically entails the truth of the other.

https://www.thoughtco.com/false-dilemma-fallacy-250338

[Bernardo de La Paz]

161. Not intended as one, but if you find it so, propose your own category G. . . . nt

[ehrnst]

164. ......

[Bernardo de La Paz]

162. As it turns out, the 100-percenters in this thread are the ones guilty of exploiting False Dilemma

They such as the OP make statements like

Causality here is an all or nothing proposition: in the present case, either one thing is the cause of something else or it is not.

That is posing a false dilemma.

[ehrnst]

163. I wasn't one of those people.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

166. I know. I had hoped for more than cute pictures. . . . nt

[ehrnst]

167. I had hoped for a challenging and thoughtful discussion.....nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

168. Write thoughtfully and you'll get one. I did my part. . . . nt

[ehrnst]

169. lulz

Last edited Tue May 28, 2019, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

172. Now we know why your journal is empty. . . . nt

[ehrnst]

173. Lulz.

mansplaining
/ˈmanˌsplāniNG/
nounINFORMAL
the explanation of something by a man, typically to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.

[2naSalit]

150. IVF is a willful act which the woman makes...

and a male willfully GAVE UP their sperm for the action.

You can take your ignorant premises someplace where they might be appreciated. Women, most pf us, aren't buying the thin arguments and "whataboutisms" you are offering here. AKA, shitstirring.

[MoonRiver]

34. Yep, even in the case of rape or incest.

Last edited Sat May 25, 2019, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)

[MiniMe]

65. Unfortunately, not quite true

As long as the penis has contact with the woman, some sperm can leak out, so the man does not need to ejaculate to cause pregnancy. Learned that in a sex-ed class. I'm sure many girls have gotten pregnant that way.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Sorry, while you might be right in spirit, you are wrong in fact. Plus you have a premise wrong.

Your premise is that only woman have unwanted pregnancies. In a hetero couple, the man might not want a child or another child while the woman might.

Some unwanted pregnancies are caused by women. Most are not caused by women.

Sometimes a woman changes her mind after sex and hopes she does not get pregnant after all.

Sometimes a woman makes a mistake with birth control. Miscounting days, missing a pill, poor placement of vaginal devices

Sometimes a woman lies in order to get pregnant. In that case it is the man who does not want the pregnancy.

[malaise]

6. Yes - there are two sides to this

I know more than a few women who decided it was time to have a child and there was no discussion with their partner or even casual date.

[lapucelle]

26. That would be an intentional pregnancy.

'It takes two to tango!” While I fully agree with you in the case of intentional pregnancies

,

[malaise]

40. But if there are intentional pregnancies

Last edited Sat May 25, 2019, 10:54 AM - Edit history (1)

initiated by women then men cannot be blamed for 100% of pregnancies

[lapucelle]

48. "Cause was the word used by the author, not "blamed". N/T

Last edited Sat May 25, 2019, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)

[malaise]

51. So how is a man responsible for a pregnancy when the woman

decided she wanted that man's child? I actually know two women who told their boyfriends that they were using the pill.
I accept that men not using condoms are responsible for lots of unwanted children but I will not accept that men are 100% responsible.

[MrsCoffee]

67. If the man really doesn't want a child, he will wear a condom regardless of whether she is on

the pill. They may not be 100%, but pretty damn close.

[lapucelle]

74. "Men Cause 100% of UNWANTED Pregnancies" is the title. N/T

[malaise]

83. How do you know the man wants the pregnancy the woman wants?

Or do only the women's views on this matter. When a woman tells a man she's on the pill and then shows up pregnant, clearly only one party WANTED that pregnancy?

[lapucelle]

85. What's your point?

The men didn’t want the pregnancies and they were “tricked and lied to” by their partners/wives?

Did their partners confirm that to you?

[JimGinPA]

152. I Think The Point Was Pretty Obvious

And if you've never heard of an instance of a woman having relations with someone with the intention of "trapping" them, let me assure you it happens.


100% is usually a pretty high threshold. Much more often it's just hyperbole.

[lapucelle]

153. What does your claim that women have sex with men in order to "trap" them

have to do with men causing 100% of unwanted pregnancies?

After the women have "trapped" the men, what do they do with them?

[JimGinPA]

154. If You Want To Get Into Specifics...

We can talk about my grandson.

My son's high school girlfriend certainly wanted to get pregnant when she told him it was "safe" because she took birth control when she really wasn't. At 17 that was certainly an unwanted pregnancy from his prospective.

"After the women have "trapped" the men, what do they do with them? "

In his case collect monthly child support.

So to reiterate malaise's point, if unwanted only pertains to the woman's point of view, you should change you OP to reflect that. Otherwise you point is flawed.

[lapucelle]

155. Yes, but it was a wanted pregnancy on her part.

What did the judge say when he/she learned that the girlfriend lied to and tricked your son in order to trap him? Why did the court order a high school boy to pay child support?

In any case, any boy/man who does not want to cause an unwanted pregnancy should take his own precautions. And the fact remains that your son did cause the unwanted pregnancy.

The OP is an quote from an article that I didn't write, so I'm not sure what you expect me to change. There is no flaw in the point.

[JimGinPA]

158. "There is no flaw in the point."

Not that you're willing to accept anyway.

The statistic in your OP is provably incorrect. Your argument is flawed & your unwillingness to accept reality shows me your only purpose here is to keep your bogus thread kicked up.

Have a nice Holiday!

[lapucelle]

159. Your son caused the unwanted pregnancy.

His 17 year old girlfriend did not cause the pregnancy by telling him she was on the pill.

Here's the reality:

Your son caused the pregnancy by ejaculating inside his girlfriend without wearing a condom. He could have put one on. And if he didn't have one, he could have walked away. He chose not to.

Just out of curiosity, how much child support does a court order a high school boy to pay? Did the amount increase once he became an adult? Does he have visitation rights?

And one last thing, you kicked the thread by posting a comment that I then responded to. Had you not commented, no kick. You are 100% the cause of the thread being kicked. Why would you claim that I'm responsible for something you did?

It is your reasoning that is bogus, not the thread.

[HuskyOffset]

10. Want to avoid an unwanted pregnancy as a male?

Wear a fucking condom.

[NickB79]

24. I have a friend who was on birth control and her boyfriend was wearing a condom

Her daughter is 5 yr old now.

One in a million chance, I know, but man that was one hell of an oops!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

62. Obviously. . . . nt

[zanana1]

12. You can't deny this basic fact of biology.

Sperm, sperm, sperm. Wear a rubber.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

63. You can't deny this basic fact of biology.

Ova, ova, ova. When both parties don't want a pregnancy, wear a rubber.

When one party doesn't want a pregnancy, wear a rubber or use effective contraception carefully.

[lapucelle]

87. If it is the man who does not want a pregnancy,

a vasectomy is his best option.

[zanana1]

114. I got pregnant with an I.U.D. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

115. Yes, it can happen. Probably you did not blame the man. Similarly in this thread ...

... a couple got pregnant when the woman was using birth control and the man was using a condom.

I don't think they said "the man is 100% responsible".

[Farmer-Rick]

19. It seems the government wants all pregnancies.

Since ending a pregnancy, even with a simple pill, is not a decisions man or woman are allowed to make once the religiously insane and criminals have passed all their laws.

So once the Supremes have ruled against a medical procedure, there will be no unwanted pregnancies, the state will want all of them.....unless you are rich and you payoff a doctor or go to another country or buy a pill over the internet (India sells the abortion pill over the counter).

[lapucelle]

23. First of all, I didn't write the piece,

so whatever your are positing as my premise is not my premise.

Sometimes a woman changes her mind after sex and hopes she does not get pregnant after all.

Sometimes a woman makes a mistake with birth control. Miscounting days, missing a pill, poor placement of vaginal devices

Sometimes a woman lies in order to get pregnant. In that case it is the man who does not want the pregnancy.

Women change their minds, make mistakes, and lie?

Well, bless your heart.

Oh, and ova is plural. Your sentence should read

Men do not create ova, which i⃫s⃫ are required

[Bernardo de La Paz]

64. You endorsed the piece in your OP by posting link and excerpts with no negative comment.

When a woman changes her mind after sex (as is her right with regard to pregnancy) the pregnancy becomes unwanted. But in that case of the unwanted pregnancy, the man is not 100% responsible.

Thanks, you are correct, the verb should agree with the subject as to plurality.

Women change their minds, make mistakes, and lie?

Sometimes they do. Well, bless your heart. If you had a point on that issue you would have made it, but you don't.

[lapucelle]

76. That still doesn't make the author's premise my premise.

What part of the piece are you (mistakenly) calling “my” premise?

[lapucelle]

78. If she wanted to get pregnant, then it was a wanted pregnancy. N/T

[mountain grammy]

33. I honestly believe you didn't read the article..

Did you see this paragraph?

Discouragingly, a promising study on a new male contraceptive was canceled in large part due to… (wait for it)… side effects. To be clear, this list of side effects was about one-third as long as the known side effects for commonly used women’s contraception. There’s a lot to unpack in that story alone. I’ll simply point out that, as a society, we really don’t mind if women suffer, physically or mentally, as long as it makes things easier for men.

Or this one?

Why would men want to have sex without a condom? Because, for the precious minutes when they’re penetrating their partner, not wearing a condom gives them more pleasure. So… that would mean some men are willing to risk getting a woman pregnant — which means literally risking her life, her health, her social status, her relationships, and her career — so they can experience a few minutes of slightly increased pleasure. Is this for real?

Yes. Yes, it is.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

61. Re: contraceptives & condoms

Neither of those excerpts prove in any way that a man is 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies.

1) If a woman requires the man to use contraception, she can insist on it. Otherwise it is rape (non-consensual penetration). If the man lies about it (just as women have lied about it some times), it is a kind of a crime I think, though I'm not sure what the charge would be. Some amount of child support would be a minimum response.

2) If a woman wants a man to use a condom, she can insist on it. Otherwise it is rape. If there was coercion it is rape.

3) However, if a woman consents to unprotected or uncontracepted sex, then it is not 100% the man's responsibility. At the point, with her consent she is placing a bet and taking a risk. Otherwise, if she does not give consent, it is rape. If there was coercion it is rape. But the man is also taking a risk because he is still responsible for some amount of child support and the rest.

4) At any point in the pregnancy up to the Roe v Wade point, it is the woman's choice whether or not to continue or terminate. Period. Men do not have a right to force a birth nor to force an abortion. Period.

Clear enough? Yes.

[mountain grammy]

72. Yes, clear enough.. you make it sound so simple

you must be male.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

73. A little bit of touche' :) but if I had more time I'd have made it shorter :)

Also, for example I was being unavoidably simplistic about the definition of rape which should more properly be called sexual assault of course and does not require penetration though at least one kind of penetration is topic A in this thread. I am not a lawyer.

[lapucelle]

75. What about men who make mistakes putting on the condom?

Or men who buy the wrong size condom?

Or men who use old or cheap condoms that fail?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

103. whataboutism? What is you point about that?

[lapucelle]

109. I know you hold yourself to be an expert,

but you might want to take a refresher course in "mocking".

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12128985

[Bernardo de La Paz]

117. The post you link to was obviously not mocking. Here you deflect when asked if you have a point. nt

[lapucelle]

119. Hmmm...perhaps the linked post, rather than being mocking, was being mocked.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

120. Okay, reference was not clear because it was in a different large sub-thread. Still, your point?

Men make mistakes sometimes or are stupid or in some cases assaultive like that Mississippi law maker arrested for punching his wife for being too slow undressing.

That has not been disputed.

Nobody has said "men are responsible for 0% of unwanted pregnancies", which would be just as incorrect as saying men are responsible for 100% of unwanted pregnancies.

[lapucelle]

122. The piece linked to is not about blame and only partially about responsibility.

It is primarily about cause.

I can understand why some men might become immediately defensive, especially given the fact that while many might read "cause" they may process "are to blame for".

Pregnancies happen when men have an orgasm. Unwanted pregnancies happen when men orgasm irresponsibly.

snip================================================

Don’t like my ideas? That’s fine. I’m sure there are better ideas, and I challenge you to suggest your own. My point is we need to stop focusing on women if we’re trying to get rid of abortions. Think of abortion as the “cure” for an unwanted pregnancy. To stop abortions, we need to prevent the “disease” — meaning, the unwanted pregnancy itself. And the only way to do that is by focusing on men, because irresponsible ejaculations by men cause 100% of unwanted pregnancy.

The purpose of the piece is to posit the idea that it might be time for legislatures to focus on the male role if their goal is to prevent or reduce the number of abortions rather than to "blame" anyone for unwanted pregnancies.

If you’re a man, what would it take for you to never again ejaculate irresponsibly? A loss of money, rights, or freedoms? Physical pain? Ask yourselves: What would it take for you to value the life of your sexual partner more than your own temporary pleasure or convenience?

Men mostly run our government, and men mostly make our laws. In theory, men could eliminate — or drastically reduce — abortions within months without ever touching an abortion law or even mentioning women. They’d simply need to hold men accountable for irresponsible ejaculations, and legislate accordingly.

To reduce or eliminate abortions, stop attempting to control women’s bodies and sexuality. Because unwanted pregnancies are caused by men.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

124. No. "cause" is wrong. Assigning a cause assigns blame implicitly unless qualified. It wasn't.

To say that men "cause" 100% of unwanted pregnancies is dismissive of the woman's role.

It assumes she has no agency. It assumes she is incompetent to give or withhold consent in 100% of the cases. It assumes that women have never lied or been incompetent or that there have been material failures.

It assumes that women never change her minds about wanting a pregnancy. Which is their right.

By taking away women's agencies it denies them their rights.

Women are always assumed under modern law to be competent agents unless proven otherwise by evidence. Changing their mind is not evidence of incompetency.

---

Regarding "stop focusing on women if we're trying to get rid of abortions": it is an excellent point. However the thread title you chose and the "100%" binary thinking sabotages that point, badly.

[lapucelle]

125. Assigning a "cause" does not assign a "blame" implicitly.

In what way does saying "men cause 100% of unwanted pregnancies" assume that at women "have no agency" or that a "woman is incompetent"? It seems to me that this is a pseudo-feminist framing of the blame/responsibility point that you are so focused on.

The thread title *I* chose is the title of the article I linked to. Causality here is an all or nothing proposition: in the present case, either one thing is the cause of something else or it is not.

The author's "100% binary thinking" does not sabotage the point. It makes the point.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

129. By your logic, a woman is never a cause of a pregnancy. You deny them agency even for that.

You state:

Causality here is an all or nothing proposition: in the present case, either one thing is the cause of something else or it is not.

and you invoke:

"men cause 100% of unwanted pregnancies"

with arguments that can only mean men cause 100% of all pregnancies.

Since your logic would require a rational person to argue (if they followed your logic) that when there is 100% cause, then there are 0% of the women who cause pregnancies.

Which is nonsense.

So it is the case that one of your premises you have claimed/invoked is wrong or both.

In this case it is both.

[lapucelle]

132. There's no problem with the proposition that men cause 100% of unwanted pregnancies.

It is a fact.

You seem to be assuming that once a cause has been established, there can be no ancillary causes as well.

Similarly, if men cause 100% of pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies are a subset of all pregnancies, then guess what? Do the syllogism. Draw the Venn diagram.

Those who made uncomfortable and defensive by having to think about an issue in a way that they have never thought about it before should probably just slow down and think a bit before making blanket judgements that misstate basic components of an argument.

I deny women agency for nothing, dear. Trying to shift the argument in this way will not work with me.

[lapucelle]

108. You might want to reread the piece.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies

not

[Neither of those excerpts prove in any way that] a man is 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies.

responsibility
1. the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.
2. the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something.

cause
a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.

Did you intend to modify the word "responsibility" or did you misplace the quantifier "100%"?

[lapucelle]

77. If a man doesn't want a pregnancy

And he’s afraid his partner may lie to him, be mistaken, or change her mind, he should have a vasectomy.

If man chooses not to have a vasectomy, and he impregnates a woman, he the cause of the pregnancy he didn’t want.

[malaise]

99. Your premise is that only woman have unwanted pregnancies.

100% correct

[Bernardo de La Paz]

100. I think your reply is intended elsewhere or is malformed. You replied differently to me to same post

Previously you replied:

6. Yes - there are two sides to this

I know more than a few women who decided it was time to have a child and there was no discussion with their partner or even casual date.

[malaise]

101. I thought I replied to the OP

Read my comments on the thread - women sometimes decide they want a child and deliberately get pregnant.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

102. Yes. Your comment(s) incl this make points against the OP. Then you post that you agree 100% with OP

I was the one who wrote to the OP that

Your premise is that only woman have unwanted pregnancies.

That premise is false.

[malaise]

104. My only premise on this thread is that men are not always responsible for

unwanted pregnancies because sometimes women decide they want a child and lie to men about using birth control. That pregnancy is unwanted by the man in the vast majority of those situations.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

105. Yes. . . . nt

[lapucelle]

133. "Unwanted" on the man's part, "wanted" on the woman's part.

Any man who absolutely wants to ensure that he avoids unwanted pregnancy should have a vasectomy.

[zanana1]

11. And what about all the sperm...

wasted in Kleenex?

[Eyeball_Kid]

38. Sperm well-wasted. We're overpopulating the earth anyway. n/t

[IronLionZion]

13. I wish the ACA had mandated coverage for vasectomies

considering the side effects of female birth control.

People like sex. If anyone thinks it's only for men's pleasure, they're not doing it right.

[2naSalit]

17. The untold truth is...

women don't matter but as long as it feels good to make use of them, it's all good as long as they aren't allowed to complain about that pesky consent and thinking they have rights business.

[SunSeeker]

25. For a substantial portion of men, sex is little more than masterbating into a woman's body.

What they are doing cannot be called "making love" to a woman, and their few minutes of pumping are certainly not making women orgasm. They know nothing about the clitoris. And they don't care.

[kag]

16. This truly needs to be mandatory reading for ANYONE who wishes to vote on an abortion law.

YES! I know a lot of MEN who would prefer a law mandating vasectomies over one criminalizing abortion.

Thank you for posting this, lapucelle. I'm sending the link to a bunch of folks I know.

[SunSeeker]

22. Love this piece. I wish ever Republican would read it. nt

[HuskyOffset]

29. We'd need to allocate a lot of additional funding

for dealing with the sudden deluge of burst blood vessels and exploded heads, but I think you're right, it would be worth it.

[mountain grammy]

31. This is an excellent article.

I read it last week and thought, that's what I've been thinking for years, but this woman found a way to express it.

[Pepsidog]

32. She's correct. My wife and I met in high school and always wanted 4 kids. After the 4th I had a

vasectomy. After all, she carried the children in her body so I felt it was my responsibility to prevent further pregnancies.

[lapucelle]

82. That's my idea of a great guy

And a true man.

[Pepsidog]

90. Thank You!

[Perseus]

36. I think women who have partners who support the craziness of repubs should go on sex-strike

Two weeks of sex-strike and it will change their partners' mind, they will be asking for forgiveness. I am a man, by the way, I just happen to be a great supporter of women and detest stupidity like the ones the repubs spew every day.

[Eyeball_Kid]

37. Yes. Anti-choice truly is about punishing women for the deeds of men. n/t

[Nitram]

39. Good point.

You are, however, leaving out those situations where a man has been told his girlfriend is on the pill and the unwanted pregnancy that occurs was unwanted by him. That in no way excuses the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies that occur because a man just doesn't consider the consequences of unprotected sex.

[Loki Liesmith]

41. lol this again

[lapucelle]

94. Uh huh

[sarisataka]

42. Isn't this just a reworking

Of sex is for procreation only paradigm using abortion as the magician's cape so you don't notice?

[SunSeeker]

46. Not at all. In fact, she points out that unlike men, women's orgasms don't impregnate anyone.

In other words, women's orgasms are only for pleasure, whereas men's orgasms also impregnate women:

As a general rule, men get women pregnant by having an orgasm. Yes, there are exceptions — it’s possible for sperm to show up in pre-ejaculate — but in most cases, getting a woman pregnant is a pleasurable act for men. But men can get a woman pregnant without her feeling any pleasure at all. It’s even possible for a man to impregnate a woman while causing her excruciating pain, trauma, or horror.

In contrast, a woman can have nonstop orgasms with or without a partner and never once get herself pregnant. A woman’s orgasm has literally nothing to do with pregnancy or fertility — her clitoris exists simply for pleasure, not for creating new humans. No matter how many orgasms she has, they won’t make her pregnant.

Her point is, it's men's orgasms that are the issue here. Women's orgasms don't cause any problems, and their very existence demonstrates that sex is not just for procreation, since women's orgasms don't cause pregnancy. Only women have an organ, the clitoris, that exists solely for pleasure. Too bad so many men don't know their way around a clitoris...nor care to know.

[sarisataka]

52. Yet she does point out

the fact sperm may be present before ejaculation. Condoms may fail, the pill may not work and so on; pregnancy is possible without penetration. Any sex that produces male fluid includes the chance, however remote it may be, of pregnancy.

The only way a male may be 100% sure he is not responsible for an unwanted pregnancy is to decline to have sex.

It does leave open the possibility to bring his partner to orgasm but he must only have intercourse, and definitely have an orgasm, if pregnancy is an acceptable result.

[SunSeeker]

59. Saying only male orgasms cause pregnancy is not saying sex is only for procreation.

Particularly since sex does not have to involve intercourse (penetration). Couples can engage in oral sex, with no risk of pregnancy...and with the added bonus that the woman is much more likely to have an orgasm that way.

[sarisataka]

68. The sex is for procreation only

has always included a wink and a nudge, especially for the man, for sex other than intercourse. If the P didn't go in the V you didn't have sex.

[SunSeeker]

81. So lesbians don't have sex? nt

[sarisataka]

84. Personally, I strongly suspect

They do. I also suspect very, very few of those who promote the position that sex is only for procreation approve of any sexual activity between same sex partners.

That, however has nothing to do with the OP.

[lapucelle]

97. "If the P didn't go in the V you didn't have sex". N/T

[lapucelle]

96. Men can have vasectomies. N/T

[zanana1]

116. Pregnancy can easily occur without a male orgasm. nt

[SunSeeker]

134. Not easily. It could occur from the pre-ejaculate fluid. Or harvested sperm.

Last edited Sun May 26, 2019, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

But that is pretty rare compared to babies created when a man has an orgasm.

And the article is about UNWANTED pregnancy.

[zanana1]

143. When a man thinks he "pulled out" in time...

It usually means he didn't. Any Sex Ed teacher will tell you that sperm is just as plentiful in pre-ejaculate fluid.

[SunSeeker]

149. Not just as plentiful, but enough. nt

[lapucelle]

95. He can have a vasectomy. N/T

[Bernardo de La Paz]

69. Actually, I think women orgasming during sex has been determined to help pregnancy occur.

I do not have a credible link and it would hard to find

https://www.verywellfamily.com/does-female-orgasm-boost-your-odds-of-getting-pregnant-1960265

Further, most men's orgasm do not get a woman pregnant (masturbation, protected sex, contracepted sex, wrong day of month, etc.).

[SunSeeker]

80. Hell, even a little wine "helps." But no woman gets pregnant without a man ejaculating.

Whether it's in her or at a clinic.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

121. That does not make the man 100% responsible. And there are pregnancies without ejaculation. . . nt

[SunSeeker]

135. Well, no woman gets pregnant without sperm from a man. There is no emaculate conception.

And sure, there are the rare instances when pre-ejaulate fluid contains sperm and impregnates a woman, even if the man "pulls out." And there is the creepy case of the parents of a dead West Point cadet who want to use his sperm to make a baby. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1203763001

But these instances are so rare as to be insignificant in terms of how women are normally impregnated.

The point of the article is that men cause unwanted pregnancy, as a practical matter. So, preventing unwanted pregnancy should involve men, since they cause it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

141. Yes. However doctrinaire 100 percenters sabotage your excellent last sentence.

So, preventing unwanted pregnancy should involve men,

Indeed men are an important factor in unwanted pregnancy and must be a much greater part of prevention than heretofore.

However the 100%-ers deny women any agency in their own pregnancy, which is bizarre, radical, and antithetical to their own cause. While no woman gets pregnant without sperm, no couple gets pregnant without ova. So since the woman is essential, who "causes" pregnancy?

Both. And since any woman can change their mind about wanting a pregnancy, with your and my support for that right, the 100%-ers would like to pretend that before exercising her right she was the cause and agent, but if she decides the pregnancy is unwanted it is instantly 100% the man's fault.

We are talking couples, inextricably linked if a pregnancy occurs because factors like child support (which could flow either way), wealth inheritance, and hereditary health effects are involved.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

71. Rick Wilson just said a great line on the Joy Reid Show

"Three things one should never rush in life: SEX, COOKING RIBS AND IMPEACHMENT."

He advocates impeachment by 1000 cuts—investigations, hearings, testimony, subpoenas, court rulings giving access to documents and so on.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212129437

[FBaggins]

43. So we get credit for 100% of the WANTED pregnancies too, right?

Just sayin'

[CousinIT]

55. Yes.

Here's a picture of Al Sharpton's little grandbaby - so cute with his little hat and little blue booties:



EVERY child should be WANTED. When they're not and childbearing is forced, that's where we get into big trouble.

[mcar]

66. LIttle Muffin

[keithbvadu2]

44. Pro-life is a myth.

Republicans are in favor of killing living babies and have done so.

Pro-life is a myth.

The supposed pro-lifers cared naught when the state of Texas (republican gov, republican Prez) deliberately killed living baby Sun Hudson against the mother's wishes because he was an inconvenience to the state.

It is not a matter of life to the supposed pro-lifers.

It is a matter of control.

[smirkymonkey]

50. K&R

[CousinIT]

53. Posted here earlier:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212090888

BUT - this thing should be posted here every DAY!

[qazplm135]

60. it's misguided

1. focusing on "responsibility" is pretty silly when the focus should be on bodily autonomy.
2. placing responsibility on the man presupposes that a woman is not in control of her sexual situation. That's she's powerless to make decisions, which is pretty much fucking the opposite of what we want. That birth control is only a male choice.
3. We have birth control that the woman and the man can use. A woman might choose the pill vice the condom. Plenty do. A woman might choose an IUD over a condom. And of course, condoms break, or are worn incorrectly.

This may all feel good (hey you men suck) but it's counter to what the reality is and should be. And lest we forget a significant portion of anti-choice Americans are women.

[Buckeyeblue]

70. In anti-choice states child support should be increased

Don't make it solely based on income. Make it based on the actual costs of raising a child with a minimum amount that is fixed.

[roamer65]

79. It's why I am pro-vasectomy.

No sperm, no baby.

If the man really wants a kid, the sperm can be extracted.

[fescuerescue]

88. I'm glad she was able to solve this 10,000 year old mystery

Only took 6 tries.

[lapucelle]

89. What 10,000 year old mystery?

The impression I had of the author was that her six children were the result of intentional pregnancies.

[fescuerescue]

91. That's part of the mystery!

[lapucelle]

92. ...

[democratisphere]

126. BS.

It takes 2 to tango.

[Nuggets]

127. Mmmmm no.

Woman forced ex to have sex holding machete to his face: cops
By Jeremy Layton

A Montana woman broke into a man’s house with a machete, ordered him to take off his clothes and forced him to have sex with her, police said.


Woman forced victim into slavery for 2 years, tried to impregnate her with boyfriend’s sperm
https://myfox8.com/2017/03/28/woman-forced-victim-into-slavery-for-2-years-tried-to-impregnate-her-with-boyfriends-sperm/

Reproductive coercion.

[SunSeeker]

136. Neither of the two incidents you bring up resulted in pregnancy. nt

[Nuggets]

139. Are you

trying to miss the point?

Reproductive coercion is a real thing, but then you couldn’t blame men for 100% of unwanted pregnancies , and that appears to really bother you.

[SunSeeker]

140. No. The article asserts that men cause unwanted pregnancies.

You seek to contradict the article by citing two instances that did not involve unwanted pregnancies, but rather sexual assault, by women. If anything, it proves how difficult it is for a woman to physically force a man to impregnate her. However, tens of thousands of women in the US are involuntarily impregnated by men through rape each year. Women know all too well the reality of reproductive coercion, compounted by anti-abortion laws that make it difficult if not impossible for poor women to obtain abortions.

[nycbos]

151. Every Sperm is Sacred

[lapucelle]

156. Dr. Strangelove - Precious Bodily Fluids

Right back atcha.