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Sun May 26, 2019, 07:58 AM

wasupaloopa (4,516 posts)

Just about every Memorial Day I have made an OP like this one. I did not fight in

Vietnam for your freedom. I fought to keep myself and my friends brothers alive.

The thank you for your service messages started after the Wall was built in Washington. I am glad for the change in tone toward us Vietnam vets because before the Wall we were not treated well.

Yet to thank me for fighting for your freedom is to not recognize that the Vietnam war as are Iraq and Afghanistan wars not about our freedom. They were wars of opportunity and never should have happened.

So we go on year after year lying to ourselves because we can’t admit that we are not fighting for honor and glory and a just cause. We need to tell ourselves that we do.

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24 replies	Author	Time	Post
Just about every Memorial Day I have made an OP like this one. I did not fight in (Original post)	wasupaloopa	May 2019	OP
K&R. n/t	rzemanfl	May 2019	#1
I'm too young to have fought (or be drafted)	Dennis Donovan	May 2019	#2
One of the first guys to figure that out was General Smedley Butler.	3Hotdogs	May 2019	#3
Precisely	Sherman A1	May 2019	#4
And, General Butler blew the whistle on the attempted coup against FDR	Dennis Donovan	May 2019	#5
Thank you for your honesty	FakeNoose	May 2019	#6
Excellent post. I really don't think we've had a war about freedom since WWII.	Hoyt	May 2019	#7
The warmongers drape themselves in the flag ...	Martin Eden	May 2019	#8
Yes	TimeToGo	May 2019	#9
It is all the more sad because those we morn would still	wasupaloopa	May 2019	#12
Truly	TimeToGo	May 2019	#13
Bullshit	Dutchman99	May 2019	#10
Ah, I see you failed to actually read wasupaloopa's post. Try again. nt	Hekate	May 2019	#16
This message was self-deleted by its author	HopeAgain	May 2019	#11
Message auto-removed	Name removed	May 2019	#14
Thanks, upa, for making it home and for reminding us of the truth...	Hekate	May 2019	#15
Dulce Et Decorum Est -- from 101 years ago	Hekate	May 2019	#17
Ever notice that we now only ever pick on people we think won't fight back?	Aristus	May 2019	#18
You should post it on Veteran's day	pintobean	May 2019	#19
I do	wasupaloopa	May 2019	#20
But what if they could speak to you from the grave.	wasupaloopa	May 2019	#21
You don't speak for them.	pintobean	May 2019	#22
Maybe the dead like for him to speak for them, you don't know	Beringia	May 2019	#24
USAF 1974 - 1982.	akraven	May 2019	#23

Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:04 AM

rzemanfl (28,536 posts)

1. K&R. n/t

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:04 AM

Dennis Donovan (18,687 posts)

2. I'm too young to have fought (or be drafted)

My older brother was called up, but had an extra bone in his foot, and didn't have to serve. Interestingly, our father (WW2) and grandfather (WW1) also had that "extra bone" (per their enlistment records), but both had to fight in their respective wars.

Thank you for this OP.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:10 AM

3Hotdogs (5,586 posts)

3. One of the first guys to figure that out was General Smedley Butler.

"War is a Racket."

There should be a movie about him.

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Response to 3Hotdogs (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:19 AM

Sherman A1 (33,659 posts)

4. Precisely

I would certainly like to see more about him.

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Response to 3Hotdogs (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:30 AM

Dennis Donovan (18,687 posts)

5. And, General Butler blew the whistle on the attempted coup against FDR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

The Business Plot was an alleged political conspiracy in 1933 in the United States. Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler claimed that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow President Franklin D. Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormack-Dickstein Committee"

on these claims. No one was prosecuted.

At the time of the incidents, news media dismissed the plot, with a New York Times editorial characterizing it as a "gigantic hoax". While historians have questioned whether or not a coup was actually close to execution, most agree that some sort of "wild scheme" was contemplated and discussed.

</snip>

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:50 AM

FakeNoose (17,294 posts)

6. Thank you for your honesty

I was a Vietnam War protester. As a woman I didn't have to worry about getting drafted, but that didn't blind me from seeing how wrong that war was. America's freedom was never at stake in Vietnam.

Why did so many lives have be destroyed when only a few companies profited? Why did the United States feel it was necessary to prop up an evil, corrupt government in South Vietnam for the sole reason that they weren't communist? If the Vietnamese people voted for communism, if they elected Ho Chi Min to be their leader, who were we to say they can't have him? It was all so wrong. But I never disrespected the young men (boys my own age) who were sent to fight in that horrible war.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 09:02 AM

Hoyt (47,877 posts)

7. Excellent post. I really don't think we've had a war about freedom since WWII.

One of my favorite songs in the 60s had this verse:

A sad old soldier once told me a story
About a battlefield that he was on
He said a man should never fight for glory
He must know what is right and what is wrong.

My Uncle -- Chris Hillman, Gram Parsons

Vietnam was a tough time, barely 20 years from WWII. I have the upmost respect for those drafted into that war and those who joined up to keep from being drafted (I was in that process -- #31 -- when the draft ended).

Similarly, I respect those who realized all the gung ho crud from WWII was not the truth of VN (or Iraq, etc.). I consider John Kerry a hero for coming home and speaking up. But, the "I risked my life for your freedom crowd", get little respect from me (maybe some sympathy).

I do think the way those returning from Vietnam were treated was uncalled for and almost criminal, even if they weren't drafted. Patriotism, the "irrational" fear of communism at the time, greed, etc., lead a lot of people into our Military Industrial Complex and attempts to militarily dominate the world.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 09:44 AM

Martin Eden (10,547 posts)

8. The warmongers drape themselves in the flag ...

... and shout SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.

When, in fact, they are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Sending our young people to be killed or maimed for the lies of politicians and the profits of the military industrial complex is a criminal abuse of power and the antithesis of true patriotism.

Memorial Day does indeed belong to members of our armed services who made the ultimate sacrifice.

To properly honor those lives and give meaning to this day, we must be ever vigilant in our duty as informed citizens to hold our government officials accountable to ensure that lives are not sacrificed in vain.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 09:51 AM

TimeToGo (1,134 posts)

9. Yes

Yes, but it isn't Veterans Day. Memorial Day honors those who died . That's important, and I resist the idea that it's about veterans. We have that day.

I am a veteran.

But, this is different.

Death. Memorial Day is about dying. Dying in service to the country. War comes with death and we need to remember that always.

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Response to TimeToGo (Reply #9)

Sun May 26, 2019, 10:57 AM

wasupaloopa (4,516 posts)

12. It is all the more sad because those we morn would still

be alive

And the veteran suicides to come will not have happened.

No it is not about us living vets it’s about us living who have the ability to talk about it. The dead can’t speak from the grave.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #12)

Sun May 26, 2019, 11:03 AM

TimeToGo (1,134 posts)

13. Truly

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 10:09 AM

Dutchman99 (4 posts)

10. Bullshit

I spent more than one year in Vietnam ('68-'69)... I was not fighting for anyone's freedom. I was fighting in an illegitimate undeclared war solely because I was a scared shitless 19 year old who was drafted while others got deferred with bone spurs. The same is essentially true for the Korean "Conflict" (WAR) and the undeclared wars in Iraq and Afghanistan... the first was to validate a total and complete George Bush lie and the second because the US had to kick somebody's ass after 9/11. Both of those wars escalated violence and terrorism and have NOTHING to keep the US "free".

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Response to Dutchman99 (Reply #10)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:12 PM

Hekate (67,150 posts)

16. Ah, I see you failed to actually read wasupaloopa's post. Try again. nt

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

HopeAgain This message was self-deleted by its author.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:10 PM

Hekate (67,150 posts)

15. Thanks, upa, for making it home and for reminding us of the truth...

"The old lie: Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori "

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:25 PM

Hekate (67,150 posts)

17. Dulce Et Decorum Est -- from 101 years ago

Dulce et Decorum Est
Wilfred Owen - 1893-1918

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:27 PM

Aristus (54,400 posts)

18. Ever notice that we now only ever pick on people we think won't fight back?

And when they do, we become so indignant. "How dare they fight back just because we invaded their country!!! Don't they know we're liberating them? They're all just a bunch of terrorists!"

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:32 PM

pintobean (18,101 posts)

19. You should post it on Veteran's day

Memorial Day is for remembering and honoring people who have died while serving. Regardless of the politics, we should honor all who gave everything.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2019, 05:54 PM

wasupaloopa (4,516 posts)

20. I do

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Response to pintobean (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2019, 05:55 PM

wasupaloopa (4,516 posts)

21. But what if they could speak to you from the grave.

They can’t

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #21)

Sun May 26, 2019, 06:01 PM

pintobean (18,101 posts)

22. You don't speak for them.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #22)

Mon May 27, 2019, 12:22 AM

Beringia (3,950 posts)

24. Maybe the dead like for him to speak for them, you don't know

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Response to wasupaloopa (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2019, 12:12 AM

akraven (1,975 posts)

23. USAF 1974 - 1982.

I got your back.

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