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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe reality: Trump is better positioned than Nixon was prior to the televised senate hearings...
There's those who believe the hearings alone will shift the narrative and put the Democrats on solid footing when it comes to going after Trump with impeachment. I think it's important we step back and survey the current climate and landscape - but also not get caught up with what happened to Richard Nixon because, really, the situations aren't all that comparable.
It is true that Nixon saw a plummet in his approval ratings between the start of his second term (1/73) and that summer when the hearings into Watergate began in the Senate and were televised nationally - but we need to understand that much of the damage Nixon saw in the early months of '73 was already happening even before the hearings.
For starters, Watergate was playing out during the 1972 election, as Liddy, Hunt and the Watergate burglars are indicted by a federal grand jury just two months before the election. This didn't seem to penetrate Nixon's support, however, as he won reelection in a landslide over George McGovern.
Days before his second inauguration, however, Liddy and James W. McCord Jr. are convicted after the trial over their role in Watergate. Nixon is inaugurated a second time, and his approval jumps to 67% - this is important.
A month after the inauguration, hearings begin into appointing L. Patrick Gray as permanent Director of the FBI. However, during this hearings, Gray admits to the Senate that John Dean probably lied to FBI Investigators and that he was asked by Dean to keep him updated on the Watergate investigation. This is where things start to fall apart for Nixon.
In March, McCord writes a letter to a judge stating that the Watergate burglary was not a CIA operation and, in fact, involved other government officials. This begins the interest of the investigation into the White House's role.
In early April, John Dean begins cooperating with federal Watergate prosecutors.
Nixon's approval at this point has dropped ten-points, and now sits at 58%. Still, it's strong.
On 4/27, after evidence comes to light that Gray destroyed Watergate files from E. Howard Hunt's safe, Gray resigns. This also ties the investigation further to the White House. Three days later, White House counsel John Dean is fired. H. R. Haldeman, Nixon's Chief of Staff, is forced to resign.
On 5/7, ten days before the televised Watergate hearings begin, Nixon's approval is now at 45%. In just three months, Nixon's approval has gone from 67% to 45% - a decrease of 22 points. It's by far one of the quickest, and largest approval drops in modern American history.
I focus on this timeline for two reasons:
1) Nixon was bleeding support before the televised hearings. His support didn't drop because of those hearings. I'm sure they played a role - no doubt - but Nixon was on a collision course with bad approval throughout most, if not all, of 1973 - exactly what we saw in the wake of the resignations and the fact the Watergate scandal tied directly back to the White House. In comparison, Trump's approval has largely remained steady for the TWO YEARS. I've mentioned this before, so, I won't rehash his numbers, but his approval today isn't much different than his approval a year ago and the year before that. What this tells me is that, despite the indictments, the opening of the initial Mueller Report, all the hubbub over the release of the report, and what it implies, Trump has been immune to two things - tanking polls and rising polls. He just stays there, lingering around 40-44% approval.
2) There was a lot that drove down Nixon's numbers (and fast) before an actual senate hearing took place. That was a direct result of resignations, flipping and lying. But what we have is a situation where Nixon's own staff was caught in lies and forced to either resign or, as was the case with Dean, they were fired. So far, there's nothing to indicate that level of 'oh shit' with Trump and his administration. Beyond all that, we've seen more complacency and acceptance of Trump's crimes from within his administration than existed with Nixon. Compare the actions of Elliot Richardson, who was the Attorney General at the time, and William Barr. Does anyone think Barr as near the integrity that Richardson had when Nixon ordered him to fire Archibald Cox?
My concern with impeachment is that the players in all this do not fear the rule of law. We've already seen the idea of Trump officials openly defying subpoenas. We have a Senate that won't convict. Trump will stonewall and stonewall until it gets to the point that people move on to something entirely different due to losing complete interest in the hearings. The fact that, after two years, and multiple indictments and negative stories about corrupt campaign officials, Trump's approval has still barely budged, also tells me Americans just may not care - or enough of 'em to make the political fight worth it.
Earlier this past week, CBS News released a poll that showed a solid majority of Americans wanted congress to drop the investigation into Russia:
58% of Americans have heard enough about the Mueller Report - only 37% want to hear more:
What does this mean? I think Democrats run the risk of burning the American people out on the investigation and then it becomes less effective and less a problem for Trump - especially if the end-game is to force impeachment.
As it is now, I think they should have hearings - and Mueller should testify. But if his testifying doesn't result in a devastating revelation, or further support for the idea the administration obstructed, then the political clout behind impeachment just might not be there and, yes, the act risks emboldening Trump.
Do I think the Democrats should impeach Trump? I guess in the most basic legal sense, yes, if Trump obstructed, he probably should be impeached - just as Bill Clinton was. But as someone who wants Trump gone at all costs? I believe impeachment might not be the best avenue solely because, beyond some other bombshell revelation, I don't think obstruction is strong enough to justify the politics of it - just as it was with Bill Clinton in 1998.
Either way ... it's not an easy issue. I think both sides of this argument have legitimate concerns. I get why Nancy Pelosi is playing it safe right now because once you go down the path of impeachment, there's no coming back. It will either devastate Trump, shining a light into his lies and corruption, or it will be a political spectacle the American people tune out and does more damage than good. It's a risk and I can see why some Democrats are just okay with defaulting to the 2020 election because they can play up Trump's corruption and obstruction, but not potentially giving him what he wants - vindication by senate.
I know a lot will disagree with my take, and I accept that. There are no easy answers here when we know the end-game is almost certainly going to end with the Senate acquitting Trump.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)famously said in the 1992 Prez campaign - 'ITS THE ECONOMY STUPID!' It was certainly a key factor then.
Not mentioned in the OP above is the economy against Nixon '73-74. The DJIA lost about 1/3rd value [6100 range in Nov. '72. 4200 range in June '74]. The economy was certainly no help, and thought be a significant factor by many.
The current DJIA is 'overheated' by special, unprecedented corporate buybacks, etc. and just may 'correct' before November 2020.
Could be a significant factor in the impeachment strategies.
sop
(10,177 posts)He's got FOX News on his side, a McConnell-controlled Senate, AG William Barr running interference and launching offensive investigations, and an armed, violent mob supporting him.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... I don't know where people are getting the polling averages
Initech
(100,070 posts)Trump also has the support of a willing populace, a clergy who is convinced that he was appointed by god, and a 24/7 news network that constantly kisses his ass. Nixon didn't.
This is Nixon 2.0 that we are dealing with here. The GOP learned from their mistakes this time around.
world wide wally
(21,743 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)...is if the charge is brutal and indefensible. Obstruction? Eh. Bill Clinton obstructed and was impeached for it and nothing really happened. In some ways, impeachment on obstruction grounds might be seem as toothless.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)uponit7771
(90,336 posts)NEW YORK (Reuters) - The number of Americans who said President Donald Trump should be impeached rose 5 percentage points to 45 percent since mid-April, while more than half said multiple congressional probes of Trump interfered with important government business, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Thursday.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The point is whether the Democrats should go full-force into impeachment? I think the polling reflects that it's a potential landmine issue for the party.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... high for impeaching Trump.
I don't think we should impeach right now, a long drawn out investigating with trickle of reveals hurts an incumbent always.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Nixon won nearly 61% of the popular vote in 1972. America's landscape was entirely different back then than it is today. With the partisan divide so significant, having 45% of the country supporting impeachment is not surprising - as that 45%. In fact, in 2014, 35% of Americans supported impeaching Obama:
45% won't be enough with Trump's approval. If 45% support impeachment, it's likely the same 45% who've opposed Trump since Day One. If impeachment breaks 50% - or pushes 60% - then by all means, we can discuss the importance of the polls. But Bush had similar impeachment numbers and that wasn't going to happen, either.
Also, this poll done a couple weeks ago shows that a majority of America does not want impeachment:
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/442028-poll-two-thirds-of-voters-oppose-impeachment-proceedings
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... Trump impeached now how in the world is Trumps ... HIGHER ... impeachment numbers not something to consider?
Impeachment without the hearings never pushed above 50% with Nixon that's why I said post Saturday Nigh Massacre.
We're ... PRE ... Saturday Night Massacre with Trump and before hearings
There's some logic that's missing here.
Also, this poll done a couple weeks ago shows that a majority of America does not want impeachment:
THAT's ... NOT ... relevant either... a majority of Americans didn't want impeachment with Nixon either before dems started impeachment procedures... but Red Don's impeachment numbers are CURRENTLY higher
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Roughly the same amount of people wanted Obama impeached in 2014, according to a CNN poll, who wanted Nixon impeached after the Saturday Night Massacre - so, by your faulty logic, the GOP had pretty strong grounds to impeach Obama.
Your argument is kind of all over the place. An impeachment poll isn't relevant and yet, here you are pushing an impeachment poll. This makes no sense. What makes sense is that Trump's approval is stronger today than Nixon's was throughout most of 1973 - at the height of the Watergate scandal. What did Nixon in was the fact his approval was abysmally bad and he lost the GOP, which meant he knew, if impeachment actually happened, there was a good chance he would be removed from office.
But I agree with you that impeachment polls are irrelevant. Why? Because the dynamics of the country are completely different today than when Nixon was president. You know, Nixon last served nearly fifty-years ago. A lot has changed. America is far more partisan today than it was in the 1970s. This is why I pointed out the fact Nixon received over 60% support in his reelection campaign. That fact alone is why polling is stupid and meaningless - because that 40% of the country who support impeachment are probably going to support impeachment of any Republican president - just as the 35ers who supported impeaching Obama. The partisan divide IS real and it makes impeachment even less likely since, unlike with Nixon, where Republicans openly abandoned him, there's no chance in hell of the Senate voting to remove.
Unless there's a massive smoking gun out there - pushing impeachment on obstruction charges won't change the tide and is a failed fight for the Democrats.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... so Red Don's numbers are ... WORSE ... than Nixon's !!
I don't see how that can be confusing !?
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Fact: America's electorate is more divided today than it was in 1973. Nixon won reelection with 60% support - Trump barely broke 45% nationally in his election. It stands to reason that there's a huge segment of the population that would support impeaching Trump no matter what - just as there was a huge segment of the population who supported impeaching Obama in 2014.
Fact: Nixon's approval was abysmal. He lost the confidence of the nation - and more importantly - the GOP. This led to his resignation.
Fact: Trump's approval is far more stable than Nixon's was prior to the first televised hearings into Watergate. Nixon saw a 20-point drop in approval prior to the hearings - long before impeachment was even being floated around - in a matter of less than six months. Trump's approval today is at the same level it was in 2018 and slightly better than it was at this point in 2017.
Fact: The GOP won't convict Trump and remove him from office.
Fact: Republicans turned on Nixon, which forced his resignation.
Fact: Long before impeachment began, Nixon was bleeding out - having needed to fire the White House Counsel due to their destroying evidence, accepting the resignation of his Chief of Staff over a connection to that destroyed evidence and accepting the resignation of the head of the FBI over those same accusations.
Fact: Only Gen. Flynn has resigned from the Trump administration due to anything associated with the Mueller Investigation.
Fact: Impeaching for obstruction is about as toothless of a process as you can get. See: Bill Clinton.
Fact: Mueller's own report doesn't state Trump obstructed - only that they couldn't conclusively determine that no criminal conduct occurred.
Fact: 66% of Americans in a Quinnipiac poll say Trump should not be impeached.
Fact: Most Americans concede Trump committed a crime.
Fact: The fact most Americans believe Trump committed a crime but don't think he should be impeached suggests that there's a strong possibility, beyond a much larger crime than obstruction, that the American people won't just march toward removal - which means impeachment could just draw partisan lines: see, Bill Clinton.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... not from me.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)So, at best, we have a split situation - not nearly as much a slam dunk as you pretend.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I'm sure, in that four days, nearly 20% of Americans changed their mind on impeachment.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)So I won't laugh at your poor attempt to troll.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... which as I've said before is a red herring.
Either way, the most recent polling on the matter has Trumps impeachment at or over Nixon's post SNM
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Your dismissing this really indicates your poor understanding how polling works. You're like those who point to Rasmussen as proof Trump is actually okay.
Well they have his approval at 47%, and since it's the most recent, it's gotta be correct!
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)...within less than a week of each other, which suggests there might not be a definitive figure, therefore comparing it to other polls could increase the probability of it not being accurate.
Bottom line: Nixon faced far bigger issues than Americans wanting him impeached - he faced dismal approval and Republicans who abandoned him long before impeachment became a thing. Trump has neither.
rockfordfile
(8,702 posts)It's not just trump. It's gop members in the Senate and House that should be investigated as well.
Most Americas are there with his impeachment and for him to be indicted. Democrats need to continue that those GOP members that continue to obstruct and that the American people will go after them in the 2020 election.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The top issue in the 2018 campaign, according to exit polls, was healthcare. Here's how it broke down:
41% put healthcare as their most important issue
23% immigration
21% the economy
11% gun policy
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/midterm-exit-polls-2018-n932516
And most Americans are not there with impeachment. I can't find one credible poll that shows a majority of the country supporting impeachment - at least nothing recent. In fact, the most recent poll I found shows Americans, by a large majority, don't support impeachment:
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/442028-poll-two-thirds-of-voters-oppose-impeachment-proceedings
maxrandb
(15,330 posts)designed to get a certain response.
The first one would be like asking someone with a rotted molar if they would "rather continue with the root canal, or move on to other things"?
Suppose instead you asked; "would you like to get your tooth fixed or let it rot"?
The other question would be like asking someone who has been listening to the "Easy Street" song for 40 consecutive days if they; "have heard enough of that song or wanted to hear more"?
The way poll questions are asked makes a difference.