What Michelle Goldberg, NYT columnist just said !!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

"Imagine if Democrats do nothing and don't impeach. And Trump wins
reelection. They will have to face the humiliation of their own cowardice."

[BigmanPigman]

1. It may disgust people to the point of not voting at all.

[Kurt V.]

22. this is the correct take. when trump can commit crimes with no consequences the anger will only grow

[INdemo]

25. and it will...the main reason the Democrats lost the House in 2010

and turned it over to the T-Party is because they show no back bone. The Republicans beat the hell out of the Democrats blaming them for the huge Bush deficits. Allowing the Repukes to misinform the voters about the new AFC, The Democrats acted like and were cowards in 2010 election.
Im telling ya if they don't impeach voters will not forget and we can kiss our Democracy good- bye because Republicans will retake the House in 2020

[Laura PourMeADrink]

66. Good take. I think this may be something that has been ignored -- the many, many

demoralized Dems who just won't feel as motivated in 2020 as they could if we stood up to the dictator.

I have Democratic ideals in my DNA, my mom and dad, my immigrant grandparents who escaped from Russian oppression on a boat to come here. I was shocked, sad, and irate that Bush got away with a war based on false premises and was never held accountable. But, this is (hope not) would be strike two for me. Never in a zillion years would I ever think I would feel that way. Of course, no where to go, and everyone knows that

[wasupaloopa]

108. You say if trump isn't punished people will hand him a second term,

Makes no sense since we need the Senate to punish him.

[bigbrother05]

134. Investigate and bring impeachment will solidify the Dems

My view is that the House leadership are playing a timing game. Following due process to bring witnesses and documents before the committees is appropriate. They are winning the expedited court rulings and any delays in the process are because Trump is stalling.

In a few weeks, after more court wins to enforce subpoenas, the scope of obstruction will justify going to an impeachment inquiry that should override most of the obstructive behavior and allow the release of Grand Jury evidence w/o Barr's involvement.

Expect to see full on televised hearings by this Fall and the issuance of Articles of Impeachment by the Spring. We all know McConnell will blather on about a coup and election year, but will delay a Senate trial until after the election.

All GOP Senator candidates up for election will have to answer about their position on impeachment. They will be tied directly to Trump's maladministration with nothing to show their voters from this do nothing Senate.

What better way to bring out our voters to support their Dem Representatives and Presidential ticket while ousting any GOP lackeys?

[LiberalLovinLug]

147. And I'd go even further. They have to ALL row hard in the same direction.

And at least act like you are passionate about it. Stop hand-wringing and the internal debates. Unify in your commitment to impeachment. Stop looking like you detest the idea of impeachment, but that it MAY be necessary in some undisclosed imaginary future.

It may already be too late. Because everyone will know that Nancy and Chuck were dragged into it. I hate to say anything positive about the GOP but at least they all can sound angry, passionate, even if manufactured. Lindsay Graham can go from calling Trump unfit during the primaries, to vehemently defending him, even supporting that he is being unfairly persecuted. And he does it with froth spilling out the sides of his mouth and his eyes bugged out, and his veins popping on his neck.

Cautious pragmatism is NOT going to win an election! This is a new age of reality TV. And that is the one arena that Trump is master of. Everyone loves the villain on the island. At least they want to keep watching with him on it, if the alternative is the quiet minion that just goes along to get along.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

148. Absolutely the most perfect statement

You

And at least act like you are passionate about it. Stop hand-wringing and the internal debates. Unify in your commitment to impeachment. Stop looking like you detest the idea of impeachment, but that it MAY be necessary in some undisclosed imaginary future.

[real Cannabis calm]

152. Not quite... HERE IS THE ACTUAL, CURRENT, NEWS:

MUELLER BREAKS FROM BARR ON TRUMP INVESTIGATION!!!
National Security [section] New York Times
May 29 at 6:21 PM
Mueller’s statement highlights key differences with Barr on investigation of President Trump
By Devlin Barrett
Reporter focusing on national security and law enforcement

Departing special counsel Robert S. Mueller III finally spoke publicly Wednesday, and his carefully chosen comments highlight the ways in which he disagrees with his boss, Attorney General William P. Barr, about the facts and the law surrounding the investigation into President Trump.

“If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so,” Mueller said Wednesday.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212143385

[Trumpocalypse]

30. So people who hate Trump so much

that they want him impeached will sit home in 20 and let him get re-elected? That makes no sense.

Heard the same ridiculous argument in 07 when the Dems didn't impeach Bush. It was wrong then and wrong now.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. Think there are gradations to that. Motivated enough vote, probably. Motivated enough

to work your fingers to the bone on a campaign, maybe not.

[Trumpocalypse]

97. Still not buying it nt

[Laura PourMeADrink]

102. Well, I am only one person, blue DNA, and I feel that way.

[Trumpocalypse]

110. And don't assume that everyone thinks or

feels exactly as you do. If they did Trump wouldn’t be president in the first place.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

144. You are right I may be the only person here who is completely demoralized

Because our party chooses not to act on impeachment. But I reckon it is highly possible there may be others among the 10 million who signed the impeachment petition on move on who could feel the same way.

[Trumpocalypse]

149. So are you planning to stay home on election day

and let Trump get re-elected?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

150. No, doubt that. I think some don't realize the devastating effect that not announcing

we are impeaching is having on me and people who see it as clear as day here, and the 10 million who signed the move on petition. You have got to see that??? the ardor, the certainty that it is the correct, moral, and just path to take. If not, at least acknowledge that there are good Dems who think that way ???

[Trumpocalypse]

151. Lots of people sign move on petitions

for all sorts of things. And they don't have an emotional breakdown if the petition doesn't happen

[Laura PourMeADrink]

153. Largest number of petition signers in US history

https://www.newsweek.com/impeach-trump-now-advocates-say-they-deliver-over-10-million-signatures-1421434

[Trumpocalypse]

154. So what

Polling still shows most of the people don’t support impeachment.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

155. Dems do. We know Republicans don't. Probably never

Will unless he murders someone.

[Trumpocalypse]

156. And even then they would still support him

But there are as many independent swing voters in the middle. We need for them to support impeachment or risk losing them in the next election.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

157. You are right- sometimes it's hard to remember that.

I am starting to think that the most important thing is to make sure those middle of the roaders KNOW in a simple, succinct way, exactly what he did wrong with regard to obstruction. This alone, since there are other courts looking into other crimes.
I'd like to know more about censure.

[Trumpocalypse]

158. They need to follow the Watergate model

The Senate Watergate hearings are what turned public opinion against Nixon. The same kind of televised House investigations of Trump will hopefully do the same.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

159. I agree. But what do you think about scope? Strikes

me that we are probably light years away from laying out a case for anything other than obstruction and Stormy payment. Especially given the roadblocking on docs and witnesses. Congress doesn't even have financials, tax returns, unredacted report, counter intelligence data?

[Trumpocalypse]

160. Wait for the court rulings

So far they have been in favor of Congress.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

162. Its the only thing we can do if we don't impeach based

solely on Mueller report. Because everything else will take time, I am starting to think take the Mueller findings on obstruction with the underlying evidence we are supposed to get and censure him now. Because it's then on the record and shows we don't approve and is close in timing to Mueller report. Will force repukes to go on record that they approve of his conduct and we can move on.

[Trumpocalypse]

163. I'm ok with censure

But want more investigations. Mueller only scratched the surface of Trump’s crimes.

[maddiemom]

139. Exactly how I feel about it.

[barbtries]

43. anyone who doesn't vote

needs to own that. i have begun to relax a bit lately more confident that impeachment will happen. the case is building. the democrats have to try as much as possible to be able to make the case to the american people that it's not a political bullshit impeachment like Clinton's was. many of us know that only too well, but a large minority of americans are just not in touch as we are. the media is very little help. they still report on trump as if he's a legitimate president and not a wholly corrupted mentally ill criminal who made his way to the WH illegitimately.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

70. I seriously need good news. When you say, the case is building...what has

happened? Haven't looked at the status of Mueller testifying. Of course, there's always hope that the other investigations will yield something people will actually care about?? Like they didn't care that he didn't pay taxes or lost a billion.

[barbtries]

87. i hear you.

it's maddening. they just keep getting away with everything. but here is some good news: trump has been losing in court. he will continue to lose in court. it's too slow for me too. but my frustration level is just too high. my outrage meter has been blown. i have to trust the democrats.

i just have to at least right now. i can hardly watch the news at this point. twitter used to be my outlet but for a couple days i can't engage there. too much bad news. plus i can't find a job and am struggling with depression for that reason and so.

i just have to trust them for a minute. what i can NOT believe right now is that impeachment will not happen prior to the 2020 election. i too hope it is sooner than later, but just recognize that the case that is brought will have to be overwhelming and persuasive, so that even if the republicans in the senate refuse to convict, the public at large will know of his guilt.

recently i argued with Rep David Price (NC-democrat) about impeachment. he agreed that trump has committed impeachable offenses, but told me, dead serious, the republicans will never convict. i think he actually said something to the effect that if i thought there was any chance they would, he felt sorry for me.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

95. Like it matters now, thought we should have pounced IMMEDIATELY at the point the

Mueller report was released. Most people trusted him and knew he had worked for a very long time. Plus, he was considered non-partisan. We had to tie our line to his boat !

But, we have a second chance - if we can get him to testify - BOOM do it.

I hear you. We are being bombarded every day and don't see anything that will stop it. His approvals are rising since Mueller report. Just turn tv and DU off for awhile - it helps to recenter. And you can make believe everything bad to trump happened while you were away.

[barbtries]

109. the things i wish on him

i cannot say aloud. sigh

[ehrnst]

114. Why no link to the source of the quote? Because she calls Pelosi's case "incoherent?" (nt)

[JI7]

67. that makes no sense . sounds like something the asshole God that so many worship would do

[BigmanPigman]

88. A lot of people vote based on their emotions.

Not me, but many do. I know Dems who do not think before they vote too. Have you met people (Dems) who didn't vote for Hillary in 2020? I have, and for different reasons. The overall electorate doesn't think like DUers do.

[JI7]

89. they all preferred Trump. and if they don't vote this time the same will be true

they prefer trump

[BigmanPigman]

90. In 2016 they were so sure that Hillary would win that some of the Bernie

people didn't vote or voted for Bernie as a write-in. People are strange...Jim Morrison was right.

[Me.]

2. Yes Ari Is Doing Another

and what are the Dems doing shows. Funny, I don't hear them calling out the Cons. Has Ms. Goldberg done anything aside from pointing a finger?

[UniteFightBack]

5. I've HAD just about enough of this BULLSHIT. nt

[wryter2000]

10. Me too!

From supposed liberals, no less.

[Me.]

13. Fight Back

let him know [e-mail]

[Perseus]

33. If Ms Goldberg is right, and God forbeed the buffoon wins a 2nd term

A lot of people will be sorry they did not support those who are trying to push the Democratic leaders to do the job they were elected to do, and that job right now is to impeach Barr, Pence and the buffoon.

If these people do not get impeached the entire country, even those MAGA people, will be very sorry because things will get really bad, nothing like giving a drivers license to a 12-year-old, he/she will have a few accidents the first three months.

Many of you have not seen first hand what happens when you let a bunch of crooks loose and do not contain them, the chaos is inevitable, I have seen it. I really don't understand it, anyone who loves this country, who is paying attention should be enraged that the Democratic leaders are not moving faster to impeach, the other side is moving fast to destroy.

Sending emails and whatever to Ari, and Goldberg is the same as killing the messenger.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

60. amazing that move on could get 10 million + petition signers and you have to work

so hard to convince people here to start impeachment. Seems to me that sending emails to Ari that you didn't like Dems and sympathetic press speaking up for what they truly believe in seems so antithetical to what we are.

[ehrnst]

123. Ms Goldberg called Pelosi's case "incoherent" in the article that the OP doesn't want to link to.

Do you agree with that as well?

[redstateblues]

6. It's Groundhog Day on MSNBC

[Me.]

14. See Above

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. Thank god there are people standing up for what is right ! And "pointing a finger" ??

We have our leadership saying NO....and, it all depends on them. It's not like we are voting or anything, or the petition with over 10 million mattered. They are the only ones to look to. Like what the other panelist said, didn't catch his name, but the gist was - JUST STAND UP - win or lose, politics no politics, what trump will say or not say, just get it on record. And, I would add - move on to protecting the 2020 election - which TRussia WILL try and steal again.

[watoos]

26. I just posted a thread about Ari's show which you are citing from

I hope you don't get in trouble for this post, I did for saying something similar.

There was a lot more in Ari's show, he showed a clip from Republican Justin Amash's town hall and when Amash bashed Trump and said that he needed to be held accountable, he got a standing ovation.

Did you see former Congressman Steve Israel arguing against impeachment and a former Republican Congressman (forget his name) laying out an intelligent argument for impeachment?

[dhol82]

51. Yeah, saw that

It’s sad that only republicans who don’t care about reelection can speak the truth.

[Me.]

81. And Did He Also Have Traitor Trump Ally Scaramouche On

What...Nunberg busy?

[redstateblues]

106. LOL!

[Me.]

84. So You Think The Dems Are Not Doing Right/Standing Up

because they are not doing what you think should be done when you think it should be done? And that they deserve to be called cowards?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

96. I don't know what to say. If you don't feel the injustice at the core of your being it

can't be coaxed or convinced out of you. If you can't explain how going the political expediency route vs. standing up to a monster, just have no clue how to fix that. All I do know is that I am one of the 10 million who is for impeaching the MF ASAP

[Me.]

135. Of Course We ALL Feel The Injustice

don't be silly. But I also think that kicking around our Dem leaders who are working to find the very solutions you want is both counterproductive and allowing anger to be a guide. 10 million is not even a plurality just as those who claim lots of House members stand with them never mention that the number is only 10%. You are entitled to your thoughts on how to proceed but insulting our House members and basically calling them out for what you consider to be a dereliction of duty is not going to get anyone anywhere,

[BeyondGeography]

3. Playing it safe can be quite the gamble, yes.

[Perseus]

39. Playing it safe is a huge mistake

I find there is a lot of miscalculation, not sure if its out of fear, but not impeaching will only leave the door open for the crooks to take everything with them, but will encourage other crooks to seek office, and then we will become the USA of BANANA REPUBLIC.

We already have a lot of crooks in office because they are not made accountable enough, imagine if the buffoon and Barr get away with all they are doing, the USA will become fair game for crooks, and mafia.

[BeyondGeography]

44. I fully agree

If all we stand for is the next election people can be excused for thinking we stand for not much, and in a two-party system that’s dangerous, particularly when the other party has already gone down the path of nihilism.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

98. Good point BG ! With the economy perceived as good, an incumbent who seems

to own all news, and not enough air to establish our differences, it can totally seem like our party is no different, and why change (to the low political voter) Especially dangerous with TRussia influencing the vote.

[ehrnst]

125. So you think that Democrats are 'encouraging' other crooks to seek office

because they have not already impeached Trump?

Really?

On what do you base that accusation?

[redstateblues]

4. If the House impeaches and the Senate doesn't convict

And Trump wins the outcome is pretty much the same. Imagine Trump parading around claiming victory when McConnel refuses to bring it to the floor.

[Thomas Hurt]

7. impeachment investigations should be held as oversight...

which is already started even if slowly.

Every time that fascist pig spews another narrative, House should be investigating it, and exposing his lies on tv.

[wryter2000]

11. Agreed with your last sentence

Let's get seven or eight investigations going at once with subpoenas flying and contempt charges to follow. Do NOT cancel all that so we can hold one set of impeachment hearings that will have no effect except to exonerate him in the Senate.

The Republicans announced today there will be no trial in the Senate. It'll be a quick acquittal with no hearings.

[Perseus]

40. Can McConnell be impeached?

If so, then he should become a target...There has to be so much trash in McConnell's closet, he should be easy to investigate and prosecute.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

75. Recall? Good luck on that in Kentucky

[ehrnst]

126. A GOP Senate Majority leader removed by a GOP Senate? Nope. (nt)

[uponit7771]

16. Except with the first dems do the right thing? tia

[Sucha NastyWoman]

24. They've got over a year to get the message out that if

Republicans in the Senate won’t convict Trump after all that is in the Mueller report, that would just prove that the Republican Party has lost its moral authority to lead our country

[watoos]

27. I believe that voting starts in February (Democratic primary)

After that all we will see on cable news is Steve Kornacki.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

72. Exactly. If we had a simple unified message. TRUMP TRIED TO GET PEOPLE

TO BREAK THE LAW 11 TIMES !! And, the Republican led Senate said, "nothing to see here."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. He may - but hell, he's already doing that ! He started the day the report dropped.

He's two months in - parading around saying he was exonerated.

I am trying to look at all sides, honestly. It just seems to me that impeaching makes more sense when you analyze all pros and cons.

If you don't impeach
Pros
- Some indeterminate # of people will NOT say - oh no, I will punish the Dems and not vote for a person because they are Democrats. (Not sure how many in the middle would think and vote this way though? I would think most people vote for people)
- We are not wasting time on impeachment when we should be doing the nation's business. (Although they are already saying this because of hearings in which we look weak because people and docs aren't showing up).
- Trump can't gloat and brag and say "see I won - I didn't get convicted !"

Cons
- Trump can say, see, there was nothing there, they didn't try to impeach me. (Although already saying this and that he is exonerated. Have had a Republican tell me just this point and have read this on sm.)
- Dems aren't standing up for what is right and holding him accountable. Win or lose. This makes us look weak. And like Michelle G said, what if he wins in 2020? We will look so bad for not doing something.
- Trump deserves to be impeached. There are 11 instances of him trying to get people to break the law. If we don't stand up against that - what will we stand up for?
- Trump does not want to go into the history books as the fourth president to get impeached. His brand is way to important to him.
- Impeachment will allow the general public who are so bombarded with info, to stop and listen to cogent, defined, cumulative crimes. Who knows, maybe even a MAGAhat would hear and think "duh, goll-y, I didn't know that."
- Impeachment will motivate the 10 million of us who signed the move on petition and make us so proud of our party for standing up for something that is wrong.
- Not impeaching rationale considered veiled and political and may not hold up much longer. Makes us look very indecisive.

[tonedevil]

80. Impeachment...

is a political process that looks like a legal one. If it goes to the Senate and they don't vote conviction that will be an official acquittal. donald right now is saying he was investigated and found innocent. That is OK as far as it goes, but most people know there's some controversy about what the Muller Report contains so it is a wobbly position. Being able to say I was tried and acquitted is a much more solid one.
There is a lot of investigation going on in Congress now. They need to double and triple down on that. If it goes to the Senate they acquit and any further discussion of the matter will be considered Democrats harassing donald.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

99. I hear you. Yet, at least, if we go down, we go down in history for standing for what is

right and that we tried to hold him accountable. But, doubt Senate would try anyway. If they did - you've got, 50 something that have to explain, on record, that it was alright, what Trump did.

What controversy is in the Mueller report that people are saying isn't true?

Unless something's changed, all the investigations are being hampered by people and docs not showing up and we enter into trump's only expertise - dragging shit out through the courts. Hope that changes.

[ehrnst]

127. +1000. (nt)

[ehrnst]

117. I think that decades of experience and the confidence of her Democratic peers

makes Pelosi way more qualified to judge the lay of the land and the consequences.

You quote Michelle Goldberg without linking to what "she just said" - nearly a week ago.

Is it because she called Pelosi "incoherent" in the same article you conveniently didn't link to?

Clever.

[FoxNewsSucks]

82. There's something even worse than that

Moscow Mitch McChinless has already announced he'll let MF45 off the hook.

If Democrats continue to hold investigations, and follow up with consequences up to and including impeachment, for MF45 and his corrupt administration, the public will see the evidence. Then when McTurtlefuck lets the criminals go it will be obvious that it is republicons who are complicit co-conspirators. MF45 can and will claim victory, and innocence. People who pay attention will know better.

If Democrats do not do this, MF45 will parade around braying that he's "so innocent they didn't even try, couldn't find anything wrong on me!!!! NoCollusionNoObstruction!!!!!!!!" and how will we argue that if in fact, they don't try? Not even to lay out the evidence to the public?

[CrispyQ]

145. And if the House dems don't start the process he will tweet that even they don't think he's guilty.

Either way he will claim victory. It's what he does.

[OnDoutside]

8. Weak evidence to use Michelle Goldberg as a rock to build your argument !!!

[watoos]

28. Why? She gave the same opinion as Rachel Maddow.

Didn't realize she isn't reputable.

[qazplm135]

35. she's reputable

but that doesn't make her always right, and it doesn't make her right in this instance.

[ehrnst]

118. She called Pelosi 'incoherent' in the article that the OP refuses to link to

for obvious reasons.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. Ding ding ding. You won. I knew there would be a kill the messenger post !

[ehrnst]

129. So why didn't you post a link to her full article? Because she says Pelosi's case is "incoherent?"

Do you agree with Golberg on that as well?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/trump-pelosi-impeachment.html

Perhaps you also think that Pelosi is showing her whole hand to the public?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

73. Please read #32. Where is it wrong? Defend or dispute anything !

[ehrnst]

116. Why no link to the source of the quote, then? Which was nearly a week ago, and not "just now"

[ehrnst]

119. Do you also agree with Goldberg that Pelosi is "incoherent?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/trump-pelosi-impeachment.html

[ehrnst]

115. IKR? Goldberg called Pelosi "incoherent" in the article that the OP refuses to link to. (nt)

[wryter2000]

9. No one is doing nothing (pardon the double negative)

I am so effing sick of "if the Dems do nothing." Is she not paying attention to any of the (at least) four sets of investigations going on? They stand a much better chance of costing him the 2020 election than an impotent impeachment vote.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

42. You are right. I am going to stop saying that. Dems not impeaching is more accurate.

I do have hope that the redacted investigations will yield something. Or something out of the SDNY or state or DC?

And maybe, eventually, the House? Although they are blocking every move so far - with ignored subpoenas. Yet, what are we hoping for? That the House could pull something out of these people that Mueller could not?

[watoos]

50. Barr controls the SDNY investigations

And the other federal ones. He has no control over the NY AG investigations.
Mueller needs to testify in public.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

76. You are right. Agree. Here's a list

of the investigations outstanding and status (as of last month).

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212136260

[Laura PourMeADrink]

77. BTW...that's why I am leery if Trump and Barr allow Mueller to testify. It means

to me that he won't implicate. Hope not.

[wryter2000]

137. I have high hopes for New York State

Probably not until he leaves office, though

[wryter2000]

12. And furthermore

If we don't impeach him and he wins re-election, we can impeach him then.

And how about their own impotence if they do impeach him and it does absolutely nothing to stop him?

[BeyondGeography]

15. You actually think Pelosi would be up for impeachment post-Trump re-election?

[redstateblues]

20. It would have the same result as a pre election impeachment

[watoos]

29. If Trump wins reelection

that guarantees that Republicans will also win the Senate and probably pick up seats in the House, hopefully not enough to win back control.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. Actually this has been noted as a benefit of impeachment. Of course, this is for a

normal person....that if you are accused of crimes on a national stage, for the world to see, you are less likely to commit them again.

[StarfishSaver]

85. If he's reelected, that kind of wipes the slate clean for everything he did prior to the election

It would be very difficult to impeach him for things that were public knowledge before the election.

[tazkcmo]

112. If Drumpf wins in 2020

Do you think Democrats will still control the House? I don't believe we can keep the House AND lose the Presidential election.

[kentuck]

17. That is the choice.

I agree with Michelle.

[Kurt V.]

19. Remember the last time the house had face down a fascist dictator wanna be.

yeah me neither. itmf.

[redstateblues]

21. I'm with Nancy

[Laura PourMeADrink]

48. I would only ask you that you really think about the pros and cons - all of them. Nancy

deserves all the respect in the world for everything she's done for our country. But, just saying, what if she's wrong about this? some say she is motivated (perhaps understandably) with a fear she will lose the House if we move toward impeachment. Yet, maybe you can explain how this could affect the chances of losing the House? I just can't imagine there are that many people in the middle (voters we want) who would purposely not vote for a Dem candidate because the party moved to impeach. Even if there were a handful, they would be offset by the motivated Dems who are happy we held him accountable win or lose. Like 10 million who signed impeachment petition on moveon. And, remember Pelosi chose not to impeach Bush and he started a war based on phony and hundreds of thousands died! so there's that.

[ehrnst]

133. What do you know that Nancy does not? What makes your - or my - judgment better or more informed?

Personally, I think that decades of experience and the confidence of her peers to elect her leader time and time again gives her far more credibility on such issues.

Or do you agree with Goldberg that she's being "incoherent" on her case?

I remember all the sudden 'experts' on Constitutional law on the Right when Obama got elected.

[yaesu]

23. and there is at least a 50/50 chance tRump will win another term no matter who runs against him nt

[Laura PourMeADrink]

53. Exactly. Anxiously awaiting newest approval polls from key states. I'd like to see

him under 40 there. And, then there's the nothing has been done to prevent TRussia from rigging, right? I say, impeach ASAP after they get Mueller in - like within a freakin day. This ties the impeach to what Mueller found out. this is optimum. We missed the opportunity when his report came out but we have a second chance.

[CaptainTruth]

31. It sounds like she's assuming impeachment will change the outcome of the election.

What evidence does she have to support that? She should share it.

She's also assuming that if Democrats don't bring formal articles of impeachment it will be because of cowardice, not because they have a strategy that gives Dems the best possible chance of winning the White House & more seats in Congress.

My message may get hidden for this, & I'm going to warn of my foul language in advance, but I'm sick & fucking tired of people marching out the lame "cowardice" BS, like they have decades of experience in Congress, & they've seen all the internal polling that Dems are using to guide their strategy, & they've sat in every meeting Dems have had in the last 2 years & yep ... sure enough ... every meeting consisted of Dems hiding under the table & crying in the corner because they're cowards.

For Christ's sake.

Let me make it clear my comments are NOT directed at ANYONE here in DU, they're directed at the kind of comments Michelle Goldberg made.

Thanks for listening. Rant off.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

54. Calm down CT :) Forget Michelle - would love it if you would read

my post #32. Tear it apart, tell me where I am wrong.

[emmaverybo]

71. A fine rant. I agree. nt

[qazplm135]

34. and what if they impeach

and it turns off more voters than it turns on.

And he runs and wins reelection.

The whole premise is based off the idea that impeachment will drive votes our way.

No foundation for that premise, but you don't need one when you just assume it to be true.

And it's not "cowardice." It's political calculation. You can argue it's a flawed calculation, but calling it "cowardice" is just silliness. I'm pretty sure Pelosi is not a "coward."

[Skittles]

38. how about they just do the right thing?

IMPEACH HIS CORRUPT FASCIST ASS

[Perseus]

46. Right

Well put.

[qazplm135]

105. the right thing

is not having him as President in 2021.

Impeaching his ass doesn't do anything to stop that and won't remove him from office prior, but you get to say WE IMPEACHED HIS ASS and you feel good.

And I get it, the guy is the worst, I would prefer he choked on a cheeto tonight.

But the endgame and the only goal is a Democratic President in 2021 and a House and Senate to match.

So I'm less concerned about IMPEACHING HIS ASS than I am about making him a one-term President.

[Skittles]

141. done here

[qazplm135]

146. of course you are done here

because all you have is emotion and righteous fury.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

57. Maybe it's cowardice to make a decision based on politics and not what is right? You

mention no foundation for the premise that voters will be driven away. I have thought about that a lot. How is that different than seemingly endless investigations? Couldn't that sound like - well hell, Mueller spent a LONG time digging with the best prosecutors on his staff. Why are the Dems still digging? Not impeaching de-legitimizes what Mueller did come up with. And, I just don't see, logically that many people in the middle will say - Oh no, they impeached - will never vote for a Dem because they did that. Not with all the non-blowjob crimes. If the crimes were jaywalking, I could see it. And, if anyone does think that, surely it would be offset by persuading the casual observer who would tune in to an impeachment hearing plus the immense push of Dems motivated (i.e. 10 million who signed move on petition).

[qazplm135]

103. no, it's calculation

what is right is not having Trump as President in 2020. You act as if the only right is your way.

As if it's impeachment or evil. As if looking at everything with an eye towards Democrats winning in 2020 is somehow not "right."

I don't know if they will or will not be driven away. I don't think anyone knows how it will ultimately play out.

It's most definitely a possibility.

So no, I haven't provided a foundation, because unlike some, I don't pretend my premise is anything more than a possibility.

[Skittles]

37. I would definitely put "wins" in quotes

[still_one]

41. Who in the f**k is Michelle Goldberg? Where did she come up with "the Democrats are

doing nothing"

Has she been out of the country?

[oasis]

104. This Michelle Goldberg rudely interrupted Bill Maher on "Real Time"

when he criticized Dems for forcing Al Franken out of the Senate. Goldberg insisted they did the right thing.

That was many months ago, but I still haven't gotten over it.

[still_one]

111. Then she is just another person with an opinion. Nothing special as far as I am concerned

Appreciate the background which I was unaware of. Thnks

[warmfeet]

47. Indeed, Michelle.

The most corrupt president in the history of these United States of America, and the Democratic leadership chooses not to use the one constitutional remedy they have at their disposal, created for just such a situation.

We not only face humiliation, we face the very real threat of Autocracy.

But others know much better, I'm sure.

[Perseus]

49. Does anyone here have any doubts the party of trump will cheat in 2020?

If he does not get impeached he will cheat his way back to the presidency.

Correct me if I am wrong but, are Democrats doing anything proactive to avoid GOP cheating during 2020? The party of trump is definitely not interested in stopping the Russians or anyone else, on the contrary, they seem to be encouraging them.

So, the buffoon, Barr, Pence do not get impeached the cheating that occurs in 2020 is doubled due to inaction from Democrats and the fact that the administration has successfully stopped any action to prevent cheating and meddling from Russia and who knows who else, they are discouraging international intelligence agencies from contributing with our intelligence agencies due to the buffoon's own leaks and the fact that Barr is investigating them, has received full control of intelligence information and can do whatever he wants with it...

Ok, what are the chances the buffoon, if not impeached, will not win a 2nd term? I would love to read some answers.

[ehrnst]

124. Actually, you are wrong. Democrats are proactive in securing election security.

I guess one doesn't see what one doesn't want to see. You want to see "inaction" on the part of Democratic leaders, apparently.

Consider yourself corrected. You're welcome.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article230076034.html

[tymorial]

52. I am all about strategy but Trump broke the law and violated his oath of office

Congress has an obligation to hold Trump to account and this is not a political matter. Yeah I understand reelection is important but if we are going to place politics over constitution, we might as well admit that our country and rule of law is a failure.

There is no debating this. The constitution takes precedence over re-election and a majority in Congress. I too would like to see us own house and the Senate but at what cost? If we fail to impeach and we are stating that elected officials can act with impunity and ignore their oath of office, that the president is above the law and may act as a monarch or dictator.

Call me naive or stupid, I dont want to live in that world.

[jalan48]

55. Yep.

[watoos]

56. Dems in the House just passed bill #100

Why are Dems taking action in the House when they know the bills will go nowhere in the Senate?
Yet Dems aren’t supposed to act in the House on impeachment because it will go nowhere in the Senate, someone explain the logic.

[beastie boy]

58. This is a very near-sighted view, the kind that delivered the last election to Trump.

Last edited Tue May 28, 2019, 09:24 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't understand why some Democrats reject any suggestion of pragmatism to make victory more likely.

To put things in somewhat simplistic terms, impeachment is a catalyst for Republican voters, while the threat of Trump winning another election is a catalyst for Democratic voters. It is more likely that impeachment will galvanize Republicans and send more of them to vote, while Trump running again will do just the opposite. The chances for the Democrats to defeat Trump, gain seats in the House and, more importantly, the Senate, are far greater if Trump remains the Republican candidate for the Presidency. And, in the worst case scenario when Trump wins the nomination (let's face it, we must consider the worst case scenario too), the prospects of impeaching and convicting him while having the Democratic majority in both houses is far more likely than they are now. And THAT will be the most opportune time to impeach!

This way, if he wins, he is fucked. Of course, if he loses, he is fucked too.

[Stonepounder]

59. The Turtle has already announced that the Senate would hold a streamlined

"trial" - maybe call Barr as a witness, then vote NOT GUILTY.

The only thing the House can do is keep digging and laying out the dirt and the crimes that Trump has openly (and not so openly) committed so the news is constantly out there.

And the Dems ARE doing everything they can, one step at a time. They keep forcing tRump to keep breaking the law over and over and spweing more and more BS on twitter.

Who the hell wishes Japan a "Happy Memorial Day"?????

[watoos]

86. McConnell may set the parameters

but Chief Justice Roberts presides over the impeachment hearing.

[StarfishSaver]

91. He who makes the rules wins the game ...

The Chief Justice would have to work within those parameters and could have very little room to maneuver.

[JGug1]

61. Democratic Cowardice

BS. Nixon lasted until shortly after his reelection. This is just nonsense.

[George II]

69. Balderdash. His re-election was November 1972, he resigned in August 1974, almost TWO years later.

[Nay]

132. And, IIRC, a group of prominent Republicans went to Nixon and convinced him he had to resign.

Both sides recognized he had to go, and he did. That will never happen again.

I'm ready to split this country in half and move to my half. This is such bullshit.

[liberalmuse]

62. What about the Republicans?

The media and a lot of people demand Democrats keep cleaning up Republican corruption decade after decade, while the Republicans aren’t getting called out much for their disasterous policies that are crippling our nation. The Dems once again will be called, “weak” and take the majority of the blame for not doing something they can’t actually succeed in doing without massive Repub and public support. Meanwhile, most Americans are under the misconception that sitting on their asses in their comfortable homes angrily tweeting and posting “resistance” messages online is the same as taking action. Not even close. Hopefully we will be brave enough to leave our comfort zones and actually fight for our democracy before it’s too late.

[Dan]

63. If trump is re-elected I don't believe

There will be another presidential election.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

74. Well, it might just turn into "The Lifetime Presidency" reality TV show.

[kentuck]

65. That was a very intersting conversation.

Thought-provoking to the extreme.

[Isotope17]

78. Love Michelle but...

No!!! This is the wrong frame imho. This line leads back to personal criteria, and that’s not relevant (discuss!).

Only winning frame is:
This is an assault on the constitution.
Only legal constructions are gonna work here. Character issues may sway Americans, but not the Senate. Eyes on the prize.

[watoos]

94. Maybe the prize is convincing the American people

If McConnell rigs the game and it is obvious, the American people will see through it. The American people did not read the redacted Mueller report, an impeachment inquiry will lay out Trump's obstruction, collusion, violation of campaign finance laws, violation of the emoluments clause. Once the American people see why Trump deserves to be impeached, we have won the prize. If McConnell rigs the trial it will be obvious, game over, time to vote for justice.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

100. Good point ! Where the public didn't read the whole report - nor did we provide

a drill down, and speak about it every single moment of every day - people likely would watch an impeachment trial and have all the articles laid out ! All I know is one thing certain, since I am now living in the heart of a red state. They were scared about what Mueller said. And Mueller didn't speak. And Trump and GOP told people what they didn't read. Except they made up what the report said.

[BootinUp]

79. Sure Michelle, blame the Democrats why don't you?

She’s a rw hack is she not?

[kentuck]

92. No, she is not??

How do you come to that conclusion??

[BootinUp]

93. Ignorance apparently. Don't watch

Much cable tv anymore.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

101. At least you are honest !!

[ehrnst]

121. She said Pelosi's case is "incoherent." (nt)

[spanone]

83. K&R...

[Drunken Irishman]

107. Impeachment is only effective if it uncovers something we already don't know...

Is it possible the investigation into everything uncovers a devastating smoking gun? Sure. Is it possible that, at the end of the day, the only thing the Democrats can conclusively claim is that Trump obstructed the investigation into the Mueller report? Yes. Then what? Is obstruction a big enough crime to devastate Trump? It certainly didn't devastate Clinton.

The fact is, Americans know Trump probably committed crimes during the lead up to the election ... and they may very well accept the idea he obstructed justice. YET that hasn't really hindered his presidency at this point, has it?

[watoos]

131. An impeachment inquiry should release the grand jury information.

Barr himself stated that he would release grand jury information for an impeachment hearing.

There will be plenty of unseen dirt in the grand jury testimony.

[Drunken Irishman]

138. Unseen dirt - but how much of it is already speculated?

We already know Trump's campaign had connection with the Russians. This isn't news. I'd wager most of America believes the exact same thing. The problem is to what extent and is it anything that moves into the levels of treason? I'm skeptical only because, had that existed, I think the final Mueller Report would have alluded that significance. But the report, and even in today's press conference, largely punted on the idea - beyond admitting Russians had influence. Okay - but the foundation for impeachment seems to be built out of the idea of obstruction of justice and, frankly, obstruction isn't nearly as devastating as something wholly illegal. Bill Clinton was impeached on obstruction charges and he probably absolutely obstructed justice. But it got to the point where Americans didn't care. I fear that's what will happen here without something far more devastating.

[ehrnst]

120. GUESS WHAT ELSE MICHELLE GOLDBERG "JUST" SAID IN THAT SAME ARTICLE!!

Nancy Pelosi’s case against impeachment is growing incoherent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/trump-pelosi-impeachment.html

[oasis]

122. M$M's cheerleading for impeachment. They could care less about Pelosi.

Everything of public interest has gotta be pumped up right now. They've got a ton of commercials they need to push down our throats.

[ehrnst]

130. Perhaps you don't read the news? Or DU?

Or do you simply not want to see what Democratic leaders are investigating?

Pelosi is crushing it. Did you not hear about DT refusing to even talk with Democrats about infrastructure until the 'investigations" stop?

But your 'concern' is noted.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

142. Just curious...why did you have to throw in the

snide comment?

[ehrnst]

143. I was responding in kind. (nt)

[Justice]

136. I also look at recent EU elections-party that suffered most-Labour Party b/c they waffle on Brexit

[Hotler]

140. Shout it from the roofs. nt

[cwydro]

161. K and r.