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[Takket]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Takket) on Mon Jun 3, 2019, 08:11 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[gordianot]

1. Any minute now.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. Right.

[DownriverDem]

16. Stop attacking the Dems

We don't do that here. Too many folks do not seem to be following what the Dems are doing. It would help if folks did look at what the Dems are doing.

[Cetacea]

58. OP has a good point. Not a good time for radio silence.

I don't think it's an attack. It's more akin to advice. A lot of VIPs read here and get ideas.

[watoos]

2. It's too complicated for mere mortals to understand

only 1 poster here understands what's going on behind the scenes.

Where is the grand jury information?
Where is the FBI counterintelligence information?
Where are the Flynn recordings of his conversations with the Russian ambassador that a federal judge ordered Barr to release?

[DownriverDem]

17. Stop it

You really don't know what is going on.

[watoos]

43. Oh but I do,

I see our democracy being slowly replaced by an Authoritarian government. Don't you see it?

Barr has ignored the court order of a federal judge, did you not see that?

[Skittles]

73. I see it, watoos

plenty of us do

[Cryptoad]

3. Check is in the mail,,,,,,,,

[Honeycombe8]

28. That ad has been debunked as a false anti-Democratic Party ad. You know that.

Why are you continuing to post it? What's your end game in that? For the Democratic Party to lose the 2020 election?

Example: "When he blocked the release of his tax returns,nothing happened!"

That's a lie, of course. As soon as the Democrats took office in January, they started investigations and proposing bills, none of which the Republican Senate has passed. They SUBPOENAED records from over 80 individuals and agencies and departments and companies. They in the process of getting records from Deutsche Bank and other companies.

Trump filed a lawsuit against production of his income tax returns, so that is in the court system.

[beachbum bob]

5. every step is challenged by trump in the courts, democrats MUST start proceedings against Barr right

NOW


be a good practice run

[Laura PourMeADrink]

6. Swallwell in CNN town hall last night chooses

Impeaching Barr and Mnuchin. He prefers that over starting with Trump.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/06/03/eric-swalwell-impeach-barr-mnuchin-sot-vpx.cnn

[beachbum bob]

7. totally correct idea, start the inquiries and reveal all direct to the american people, then

do the official impeachment hearing for articles of impeachment. Who cares wha tthe Senate does or does not do. Let them defend corruption or not,

if democrats Do nothing, 2020 will be a disaster for us and many will simply NOT vote or give money

[The Wizard]

9. Maybe an ethics hearing

would be a good foot in the door strategy .

[DownriverDem]

13. Hello?

Of course trump will challenge every step in the courts. Why wouldn't they? Folks need to look at Watergate. Nixon challenged every request in the courts. That's how it works!!!!!

[beachbum bob]

15. why you start with Barr as all attemps to obstruct will be clear obstruction and the democrats can

practice what they need to do. No body is going like to be labeled "impeached"...in the history books,

[Laura PourMeADrink]

21. What about the fact that they had 4 years before the next election, without

fear of reelecting a criminal? We only have a year and a half and he could get in again, especially with Russian help. I feel more of an urgency now.

[Honeycombe8]

31. Who had 4 years? The Republicans? The Republicans are in on Trump's criminality. Co-conspirators.nt

[JHB]

44. The people investigating Watergate

[Laura PourMeADrink]

48. Agree! Just opining on differences between Watergate

And now. After a lengthy Mueller investigation, which I guess no one knew the limited scope of ?, The outlined obstruction was deemed not enough by us. Bet repukes toasted a lot over that with a lot of "can-you-believe-its?" And, "all we have to do now is keep them from impeaching so we won't have to go on record with a No, his criminal behavior is not reprehensible."

"And, we fight every attempt to get witnesses and docs to keep them from proving more crimes !"

[Honeycombe8]

59. Oh, I see.

And I agree with your scenario about what's going on.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. You can answer all your questions by reading. Your implication is not legitimate.

Your implication is that nothing is being done and nothing is happening.

That is a FALSE implication.

A lot is being done. You don't see it, so you imply nothing is being done.

[DownriverDem]

12. Thank you

I'm sick of the Dem attackers on DU.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. I don't think anyone chooses to attack anyone. But

What do you do when you are outraged and want some kind of immediate denunciation and action and it's obvious that one person is the decider? It's like the chicken and the egg. Not enough Dem support? Or we haven't told them yet what we want the caucus to support?

[Takket]

14. I'm not implying anything. I just want to know.

Drumpf sued to stop everything we have done. I have heard zero about court dates, hearings, anything. Only thing I have heard is Dueshe Bank was cleated to turn over financial records but have heard nothing about them doing so.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. OK, that makes more sense. That level of detail will require some time digging through searches.

Now I think you can understand how your OP would be misinterpreted.

Sorry I don't have that level of detail.

If you come across some site tabulating and tracking it all, I hope you will start a new OP about it.

UPDATE: chowder66 posted a list far down the thread
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/house-investigations-trump-his-administration-full-list-n1010131

[Honeycombe8]

34. Exactly. You have to be pretty uninformed & not paying attention to think they're doing nothing.

While I have issues with the path they're going down, it is a lie that nothing is being done.

The Democrats took office in the House in January, and on DAY ONE started proposing and passing bills, and started investigations in February, when the committees and chairs were formed.

The House has subpoenaed records from over 80 individuals, agencies, departments, companies. They have rec'd some records; many are being fought in Court.

The ones who are DOING things are not on tv a lot talking in detail about what they're doing. They're kinda busy. Only the newbie freshmen are on tv talking about things they don't know about.

The Dems are WINNING court cases for documents. They have rec'd financial records from Deutsche Bank, or are in the process of receiving them. The income taxes are wrapped up in court.

Are they going down the right path? That's arguable. But to say they're doing nothing is a fake anti-Democratic RW meme.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

53. +1

Thank you. All of the attacks on Democrats are tiresome. And then I have even have some people on the left on my FB feed whom completely even disregard the Mueller/Trump/Russia investigation as being inconsequential and stupid. :-/

[certainot]

38. reading! reading? ha!

[DownriverDem]

11. Just because you want it now

doesn't mean that is the way to go. The Dems are following the process and I for one am glad. Hang in there. Attacking the Dems does no good.

[watoos]

22. Are we not allowed to have a different opinion on an issue?

What if the "follow the process" Dems are wrong? If they are wrong then the people who are calling for impeachment hearings now are the ones being attacked.

Remember history; only 1 Democratic member of the House voted against giving Bush the authority to invade Iraq, Barbara Lee. She was attacked for being unpatriotic, remember?

I only have 1 question for you, does Donald Trump deserve to be impeached right now? Has Trump committed high crimes and misdemeanors that deserve an impeachment inquiry be opened up now? If the answer to my questions is yes, then Democrats are obliged by the oath they took to uphold and defend the Constitution. There is no choice, they took an oath.

[Skittles]

74. they're playing mulit-dimensional chess, watoos!

PATIENCE, GRASSHOPPER!

[watoos]

18. I don't know, maybe,

If there are 3 monsters coming at me and I have a 6 shooter, I'm going to unload everything I have at those 3 monsters.

There are other measures that Congress can be taking. If people are ignoring turning over documents and not complying with subpoenas, there are ways to take away their funding. If we have a gun with 15 rounds in it, we need to fire all 15 shots.

Our country is facing a disaster, a catastrophe, a Constitutional crisis right now, we need to use every means available that we have to turn things around.

The poster of this OP is asking valid questions, talk is cheap. What I see is the president's son has the power to dictate the terms of a subpoena. I see the AG ignore the order of a federal judge.

Authoritarianism doesn't happen quickly, it creeps by taking away 1 freedom, 1 rule of law, 1 norm at a time until we are left with a dictator. I see that process happening and I don't see enough fighting back to stop it. All that Trump needs to do is to ignore the law, to violate the law, to challenge the law in the courts until election time when it will be too late for him to be stopped.

Time is wasting and I fear that it may already be too late to save our democracy. Impeachment hearings should have started before the Mueller redacted report ever came out.

[doc03]

19. What ever happened in the SDNY, haven't heard

anything about that in weeks?

[watoos]

23. Barr is now in charge of those investigations.

[doc03]

27. The talking heads on MSNBC said it was a state

investigation and the Feds couldn't touch it? Seems like we have a dictator already.

[EffieBlack]

32. SDNY is the Southern District of New York - headed by a US Attorney who answers to Barr

That is a different entity than NY State, which has its own system separate from the feds.

[doc03]

67. So we are screwed again!

[EffieBlack]

68. No. We're not

The state of NY is investigating him and their prosecutions aren't subject to pardons or the DOJ prohibition on indicting a sitting president.

[doc03]

69. I haven't heard anything about the state of NY for weeks either nt

[EffieBlack]

70. Your not hearing about it doesn't mean nothing's happening

[doc03]

71. All I hear is talk about impeachment and we all know it is not going to happen. nt

[EffieBlack]

72. You're probably not hearing about every criminal investigation occurring in each of the 50 states

But that doesn't mean criminals aren't be prosecuted anywhere in the country.

[George II]

20. The leaders in the House aren't going to issue a status report daily or weekly. They shouldn't.

[watoos]

24. Why?

[George II]

35. Why don't they just invite trump and McConnell into their private meetings, too?

[EffieBlack]

36. Because they're more interested in doing it right than in keeping a small portion of

the base happy every given moment, especially when that would serve no useful purpose. Not only do they not need to telegraph their every move to the people they're moving against, but even if they spoon-fed us an hourly report of their every move, folk STILL wouldn't be satisfied. (Why'd they file a motion to compel instead of just arresting them? Why on page 7 did they say "thus," instead of "therefore?" And what's up with all those footnotes?".)

[spanone]

29. I wish they would give daily updates.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. Me too. All the public is seeing probably looks like a

Nebulous fishing expedition. But, I see where they have a problem. The scope. By not coming out with a clear and concise statement that the Mueller obstruction pieces were 100% impeachable offenses, it implies they are looking for more crap to pin on him. We all know it's there. But you can't really say that, can you? "Hey, we know he committed more crimes, so we are looking to find proof so hang in there."

[spanone]

39. trump is daily pumping out 'no collusion no obstruction' I'd like some counter punching

[Laura PourMeADrink]

42. Hell ya !!! Wish more of our candidates would weigh in

more.

At a very minimum, Dem leaders should be outlining in a clear way, all the obstruction they are facing now. But my mind keeps going back to Mueller. To the general public, he was the answer. And sadly, we let the other side interpret what he said.

[Katinfl]

25. Patience

I know we all have to have patience and trust that the Dems know what they are doing. There are days that it seems nothing is happening on our part and he is out there spewing his lies and hate all the time before the cameras and that is all the public sees and hears. I will continue to have faith in our side, be patient (not my strong suit) and pray this comes to some sort of a conclusion very soon and this man is exposed for the liar and cheat that he really is.

[Honeycombe8]

26. I know about the financial records & taxes.

The financial records were due to be produced by the Mazers (?) acctg firm after the district court decision in favor of Congress. But Trump immediately appealed. Everyone knew he would. The District Court had not delayed the production to wait on an appeal. But for some reason, Congress AGREED on its own to delay the production until AFTER the appellate court decision, which is in July. There must have been some two-way deal, for Congress to agree to that. I hope.

The income tax issue is in Court. Trump filed a lawsuit to prevent Congress from getting those. Experts say that Trump is gambling that it would tie that issue up in court past the 2020 election. But experts say that Trump may be wrong. It's possible that the courts will fast track it,and he'll be ordered to produce his taxes by mid-2020, which could be devastating for him in the 2020 election. (However, those experts are assuming Trump would obey a court order. What's anyone going to do if he doesn't? No one is holding him accountable for any crime.)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

41. Hopeful, but remembering that the revelation that

He lost a billion blew over pretty quickly. So, if we get the tax returns, unless his balance sheet's got a line item liability "due to Russia" not sure how much it will help. That is, without a time consuming, intense forensic accounting review.

[Honeycombe8]

60. I think one thing they'll be going after, and looking at....

are values of properties and other tax return items, to compare with the values reported to tax districts and other people/entities. It would be prima facia fraud, if he used different values for his own benefit (as Cohen reported he did,and provided a few documents showing that).

I don't think they'll find a Russian connection in his personal tax returns. That would most likely be in Deutsche Bank and other financial records....incoming money from a Russian oligarch, loan to Trump Org. in a similar amount, or something like that.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

61. You're right. Oh, didn't realize we had only asked

for personal return and not all biz entities. Money from Russia most likely did come in through a bank somehow, you're right. Although there's other ways too...like they talked about on the Netflix bio on Trump - how his dad went into a casino and bought a large amount of chips and never played them or cashed them in. I have to say, if you are a numbers type, working with all his financials on a project to uncover fraud and abnormalities would be a dream job.

[Honeycombe8]

62. I'm thinking the criminal money would have been laundered.

Laundered money would have gone thru banks or other entities.

Then there are other Russian monies that went to the Trump Org. legitimately, one of which is after filing bankruptcy, a lot of apartments in some Trump Org. buildings (Trump Tower?) were bought by Russian oligarchs. Like a LOT of them. This gave Trump a flush of cash which saved him. But I don't know how you'd show that was Russia giving money to Trump Org.

I don't know if Congress asked for the tax returns of the Trump Org., or even if they are one and the same. Trump Org. is not a corporation or limited partnership, I think. I don't know.

There's a lawsuit about Trump objecting to Congress getting his tax returns. I guess I could try to find a copy of that pleading and read it, to see WHICH tax returns were requested.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. Here's the request for tax returns. Scroll

Down to the highlighted word Neal "statement"

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/4/8/18300516/trump-tax-returns-richard-neal-mick-mulvaney

[Bettie]

63. This is the thing that scares me, honestly scares me

You said:

"However, those experts are assuming Trump would obey a court order. What's anyone going to do if he doesn't? No one is holding him accountable for any crime."

So, they wait for courts to order him to release documents. He says no, appeals, right up to SCOTUS and let's assume that Roberts doesn't forever want his name tied to Trump's and either lets the lower court decision stand or they rule that he must turn the documents over.

What happens when Agent Orange and his minions say "No, we still won't turn anything over".

Is there any mechanism at all to force the issue? I've googled and searched and can find no real answer.

The Marshall service is under the control of Barr and it's leaders are presidential appointees, so I don't see them enforcing it.

It doesn't appear to be the FBI's jurisdiction.

So, in the end, my great fear is that our system only works if everyone respects the idea that laws and court rulings are at thing and that they matter. The people we're talking about believe that the law only applies to other people, not them and it seems far too many people are willing to allow them to continue in that belief.

[Honeycombe8]

64. That's the million dollar question. If he can't be indicted, then what?

How do you force someone to obey the law when you've given him a tool that allows him to disobey the law? (protection from indictment)

When the Democrats get control of both houses of Congress, they need to pass legislation that prevents this sort of thing from ever happening again. A law that says the President CAN be indicted, and heavily fined, and so on and so forth.

[StarfishSaver]

66. I think the Marshals will enforce a contempt of court order

The U.S. Marshals are under DOJ, but they also work for the judges and, not only are very loyal to them, they are sworn court officers. If a federal judge issued a contempt citation and ordered the Marshals to enforce it and Barr ordered them not to, Barr would be telling them to violate a valid court order and, if they did, they would be following an unlawful order. That would put them in contempt of court and subject them to prosecution, jail and fines. The only way Barr could enforce this would be to threaten to fire them and he has no authority to fire them for refusing to commit a crime.

I sincerely doubt that any marshal would refuse to obey a lawful order on the Attorney General's direction.

[shraby]

33. They are on break for Memorial Day, home talking to constituents.

Congress critters will come back with some idea of what they think about impeachment.

[yaesu]

40. just pretend its 1930's Italy & you're trying to bring Mussolini up on charges

that is what we are up against.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. Or worse than that.

[watoos]

46. Yep, if there are historians 50 years from now

they are going to ask us why we didn't do something.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

49. Yup, his obstruction, outlined by Mueller didnt

even warrant a censure.

[Lulu KC]

47. It is hard to keep up--

that's why I use Twitter. However, I miss having all the help we had during the Mueller investigation. I received daily emails from various places with updates. There were interactive tools that helped me keep everyone's name straight, etc. Now that things are more dispersed, it is difficult. But from what I can tell, there are lots of things going on. While SDNY now has Barr, NY changed a law so that even if tax evasion is thrown out there, it can still be tried on a state level without the same rules about criminal charges and a sitting president, for example.
It requires more work, but it's the only way to have even a shred of hope.

[chowder66]

50. Here's a list. I googled and posted in 4 seconds....

House investigations of Trump and his administration: The full list

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/house-investigations-trump-his-administration-full-list-n1010131

[Duppers]

51. Wow! Thank You!

[procon]

54. Most impressive!

There are dozens and dozens of ongoing investigations. I had no idea that the Dems were looking at essentially every egregious and potentially illegal behavior. Good on them!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

55. Good work! . . . nt

[StarfishSaver]

56. EXCELLENT!

Thank you - This is a keeper!

[chowder66]

57. I made a standalone post in GD and listed everything. nt

[Takket]

76. thank you!!!!

I must have been googling the wrong thing because I never found this.

thank you for actually answering the question instead of trying to pick a fight

[Hekate]

75. See at link

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212158449

[Takket]

77. thank you too.

going to self delete OP to lock this thread as the question has been answered.