Would you sit quietly as a leader of the KKK gave the benediction at the Democratic Convention?

[Pab Sungenis]

No?

Then don't tell us it's "only one prayer" and to shut up and sit down again.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/cardinal-dolan-who-prayed-for-obama-on-marriage

The Catholic leader giving the closing prayer at next week's Democratic National Convention said earlier this year that he prays daily that President Obama will work to limit marriage to unions of one man and one woman.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, is to give the closing prayer at the Democrats' convention, according to a statement from the archdiocese this morning. Dolan also is delivering the closing prayer at this week's Republican National Convention in Tampa.

Mr. President, revoke his invitation.

[KamaAina]

1. They should have a band play the Penn State fight song

as the pedophile-enabler enters.

[Ken Burch]

158. And then have somebody sing "Sweet Caroline"

...especially the "touching me...touching you" line...'

like they always did at the Penn State games until they finally got around to banning it...LAST WEEK.

[FLyellowdog]

2. This really bothers me. nt

[Agnosticsherbet]

3. This is a political decision...

and an ugly one. But anything else would become hyper political with accusations of "Obama dissing Catholics."

Personally, as an agnostic and person who thinks the separation of Church and state should be absolute, I would prefer no prayers be given at all. But politics in America has an almost incestuous relationship with religion and that is not going to change much in the next few decades.

He should have chosen a religious figure that wasn't antigay. It is the price we pay for having a big tent.

And for the record, if I were there, I would stand and point my behind at the Priest.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. So you are claiming that this pleases Catholics? They are glad to be defined as bigots?

I wonder if DU's Catholics will agree with your take on that....

[Agnosticsherbet]

18. No, but he is a vocal and well known speaker for Catholics,

who admire the man even if they don't agree with him. DU's catholics are not the only Catholics in the U.S., more of whom, according to polls, will vote against Obama than for.

As I said, it was an ugly political decision

[Bluenorthwest]

21. So again, you claim that Democratic Catholics are not impressed with Biden being Catholic and

need to have a bigot pray for them or they won't vote for Obama/Biden?

[Agnosticsherbet]

36. Do not write things between the lines of my posts.

I made no such statements about DU Catholics and trying to put them there is failure of logic on your part.

I said nothing about Biden and I made no sweeping statements about DU Catholics, who support the President and his policies 100%. However,

USCCB President Cardinal Dolan celebrates Catholicism of VP picks Biden and Ryan

Interesting, is it not.

An illuminating blog post:

Catholic Right in Meltdown of Rage over Cardinal Dolan's invitation.
the Right-wing and sometimes racist “Catholic Culture” website fears this will help continue the strong support the President has among many Catholics.

If the above is accurate, his relationship may actually encourage more Catholics to vote for Obama.

And then there is this.

A Warning For The Cardinal

It seems Dolan's relationship to Obama has the right wing's panties in a knot. I think that is Dandy, and a very strategic thing for Obama to do because it will encourage Catholics to vote for him.

As I said, this is a political move, and from further reading, it is a smart one.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

20. I don't think that was the intent....

Some dumbass (I don't know from which party) made it known after Dolan was tapped to do the benediction at the RNC, that Dolan had also offered to the do benediction at the DNC. You know, just to appear even-handed. As Agnostics said, for the Democrats to turn down the request who have made fodder for weeks among largely white Catholic voters in places like Pennsylvania and Ohio.

It's screwed up, to be sure. Even as a practicing Christian I would rather that there be no benediction at all (it's a political rally, not a prayer service). I don't like it at all, and I hope that in the future, there be no religious overtones to the convention at all. I personally plan to turn it off early (actually, the odds of the benediction being broadcast are probably zero or worse).

[Bluenorthwest]

23. So your answer to the OP's question is yes, you would just stand aside and watch...but

you'd have rhetorical cover at the ready. Got it.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

28. My answer to the OP's question...

is that the KKK wasn't invited to speak. And on whatever level you may be pissed at the Catholic Church, they're not the KKK.

So it was a stupid, strawman question to begin with. With regard to having Dolan there, if I were in the room, I would simply leave.

We're the Democratic Party, and that means we're a big tent. We stay that way by people deciding to put aside their personal animosities and prejudices for the greater good. You know why the Republicans have become the party of white males? Because they're not able to do that.

[Pab Sungenis]

56. The KKK wasn't invited to speak

because someone at the DNC actually gives a shit about the rights and feelings of people of color and Jews.

The mere fact that this man was invited is just the latest in a long series of insults toward the LGBT*.* community by this Administration.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

69. Ahem....

Hosted the first-ever LGBT Pride reception at the White House
Enacted a host of administrative rules to ensure LGBT families are counted as families
Signed the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Anounced that his administration wouldn't support challenges to DOMA
Has appointed four openly-gay judges to the federal bench

Lighten up, Francis. This president has been pretty decent to those who support him.

Edit: Almost Forgot. First President in U.S. history to officially support gay marriage.

[Pab Sungenis]

73. Don't throw that bullshit LIST at me.

I've already dealt with it ages ago, it's mostly bullshit: http://cnx.com/?p=1512

Appointed four openly gay judges to the Federal bench BUT replaced the most gay-friendly Justice of the Supreme Court in history with a woman who says there is no right to same-sex marriage. That trumps the four judges.

Wouldn't oppose challenges to DOMA AFTER his Justice Department filed briefs opposing those challenges comparing our relationships to rape and incest.

And officially supported gay marriage after his Vice President shot his mouth off making the President look like an ass for continuing to say he's "evolving," but doing nothing since then.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

81. You don't really have many friends, do you

Because if this is the way you treat them...

I'm sure the Romney Administration will be a massive improvement.

[Pab Sungenis]

90. There you go again.

You can't give us vote for the man who insults us other than threats.

As I said, I'm voting for him since I don't have a choice, but I'll never back a Third Way conservative Democrat like Obama again. The party has gone from treating us with benign neglect to indifference to cynical insults.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

161. Jesus H. Christ

This president has delivered most of what you wanted (at least that which he has the power to give without interference by Congress) and you're pissed off because you don't like the manner in which he did it.

I don't even know what to say to you. I realize Obama was slow out of the gate, but what you've got here is the most gay-friendly administration in history, and you're pissing and moaning about it.

[dionysus]

165. ah, i see you've met Pab.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

206. Just what would you like him to do?

Wave a freaking magic wand and make the entire congress and every homophobe in the world disappear? While that might be lovely, it's not possible.

Marriage is not mentioned in the constitution thus there is no constitutionally protected right for any type of marriage.

[Pab Sungenis]

208. He can start by

not insulting us in this way.

Then we can start talking about things like ENDA.

[Bluenorthwest]

177. LGBT families are not treated as families and to say so is just cheap rhetoric

Some few who work for the Federal Government get a few bits of fairness but even they are still treated as complete strangers to each other under the bulk of the law, including the all important tax code. Yet you claim they 'ensured LGBT families are counted as families'. Wow. You sure are gilding that lily.
Care to send me a check for the extra taxes we pay to please the bigots in the straight community? If not, you are not convincing. Put your money where your mouth is and we can talk. 'ensured LGBT families are counted as families'. Wow. I wish that was the case, devoutly. But it is not the case. Deal with it.

[msanthrope]

29. No...you stand and laugh. Because that asshole couldn't stop gay marriage in his

own state, his Catholic hospitals have to pay for BC for their employees, his archdiocese is paying millions in settlements and his nuns are in revolt....his god isn't smiling on him.

[FatIrishBastard]

45. NO!

But I'm claiming that you're picking a fight using flawed logic.....why?

[Bluenorthwest]

178. That's not flawed logic, if it was you'd challenge it rather than foisting an empty insult

You got nothing, and it shows.

[FatIrishBastard]

210. You are so clever,

crawling up good peoples' backsides & reading their minds. Answer the question, huckleberry.

[still_one]

11. You are correct. /nt

[The Wizard]

51. "......politics in America

has an almost incestuous relationship with religion...."
Kind of like an Islamic country.

[Agnosticsherbet]

53. If I wrote your statement, I would change "Kind of like" to "Exactly like"

Fundamentally, one theoracy is the same as another, and they way they treat women, gays, and any person not of the core religous majority (including those of other religons) is the same.

[Marrah_G]

172. There are some nasty bigoted posts in this thread

Since it's against the rules to tell them they are behaving like bigots, off to ignore they go.

[rbnyc]

14. + 1 (nt)

[Nye Bevan]

48. That's like saying of a Muslim leader, "doesn't he have a building to bomb"? (nt)

[Raster]

52. But the thread isn't about a Muslim, now is it?

And no, I don't equate it that way.

Let me make it VERY CLEAR TO YOU. I am Gay. I was born this way. I am entitled to the same rights and privileges AS ANY OTHER AMERICAN CITIZEN, including the right to love whom I chose and spend my life with whom I chose. Dolan and his church have made it very clear that they do not believe that I am entitled to love whom I wish nor marry whom I wish, even to the point of initiating Prop H8 and funding Prop H8 - even probably illegally using church funds to do so, which is a perfect example of the violation of the separation of church and state.

Please, don't even attempt to throw that pseudo-equivalency crap in my face. Tell you what, when some religious organization seeks to limit your rights, your life and your loves, come see me. We'll talk then.

Until then, you have a nice day.

[Mmm_Bacon]

86. +1

[PSUDem]

180. +2

[Raster]

95. Another post to add to the mix....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021219474

[Tommy_Carcetti]

184. Oh for fuck's sake.

Really?

[Bluenorthwest]

5. The Third Way Obama crowd is simply not content unless they deliver an insult to gay people.

Very sad and this makes the President's single, hesitant, only 'cause Joe spoke first 'support' seem fake. Perhaps Obama has changed his mind yet again?

[Prism]

6. If Republicans had a preacher against interracial marriage in a place of honor . . .

We'd never ever let it go - and rightly so.

Our party should not get a pass on this sort of thing. I thought we were well beyond this by now.

After the epic shitstorms of the past four years finally reached a place of peace and enthusiasm between the administration and the LGBT community, they're going to pull nonsense like this?

Here's some advice, Democratic leaders. Don't. You can't afford to piss any constituency off at this point.

[HopeHoops]

7. Agreed. That's just wrong.

[still_one]

8. I will tell you why it doesn't matter, because the actions

Of this administration contradict everything the cardinal is saying

In other words he is irrelevant, except to those who live in some illusion

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Are you saying this is merely pandering to

fundie Christians then?

[still_one]

27. Unfortunately yes. I don't like it, but it would do more damage now

They should have never done it in the first place

[msanthrope]

32. Dolan offered..putting them in the position of refusing. nt

[still_one]

43. Iam not sure what you mean dolan offered, however,

Lets explore your argument

Is the cardinal as bad as the KKK?

If so then I suggest you would need to put Bob Casey, and most of the blue dogs in that category

Should the Democratic party tell them they are not welcomed?

Morally and ethically it woud be the rigt thing to do if it were possible

I will take it a step further, robert byrd was a member of the kkk, george wallace and a whole set of So called democrats were racists who were democrats, until Johnson took a stand and said enough is enough

The only way Johnson was able to do it was have the majority

This is a tough one politically

[LynneSin]

39. I would not classify Catholics with fundy christians

Yes Catholics have viewpoints that are similar to those of the right-wing crazies like their stances opposing abortions and homosexuality. However, you'll find that many Catholics are very much aligned with the democrats in regards to healthcare, help for the poor & needy, death penalty and working class families.

Personally I would rather that Obama found someone that was non-denomination or skip the benediction all together; however, in the grand scheme of things as long as Obama is pushing for marriage equality then it's all good for mel.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. What actions do you mean?

One of their actions was hooking up with Cardinal Bigot. Another was hooking up with Rick Warren, hooking up with Donnie McClurkin.....this is just another wrong no matter how hard you try to spin it.
The OP asked a question. You should answer it.

[still_one]

30. I am saying I believe it is too late to resind the invite. The cardinal

Should have never been invited

But let me present another point, Casey in Penn is a Democrat, completely anti-choice

Should the party have a litmus test who can and cannot be a Democrat?

Incidently, i suspect casey agrees with this cardinal, since casey's past actions always put his religion before the government

Just a note, i believe personally in the seperation of church and state, and believe it is way past overdue to continue to allow religious organizations to have tax exemptions

[LynneSin]

40. Casey is not as anti-choice as we would try to make him out to be

He opposes abortions.

However he fights for working class families, affordable healthcare, marriage equality and education. He has supported just about all of Obama's judicial nominations and never used choice as a litmus test on them. And he does support funding family planning.

He's one of the few people that I would define as pro-life - to him it's more about what to do with the fetus after it's born.

[still_one]

106. He is anti-choice and wants roe v wade to be overturned. He was none too happy that the ACA allowed

peopleallowed people to choose birth control that would be covered by insurance

Though I will give you one that he did vote against defunding planned parenthood

[Bluenorthwest]

174. No, that is not what you said at all. Let me quote you:

I will tell you why it doesn't matter, because the actions of this administration contradict everything the cardinal is saying In other words he is irrelevant, except to those who live in some illusion."
You did not say 'it's too late' you said it is irrelevant and does not matter because of actions the administration has taken toward equality. I asked you which actions you meant, and you then altered your entire argument. This is not a game. If you can not respond to what is asked of you, why pretend to participate?

[NCTraveler]

37. I don't think some can understand...

No matter what Obamas actions are with respect to policy, this gives a platform to these hateful people and legitimizes their beliefs. And it must be seen as his actions as it is all about his nomination and the Democratic party. I have not and will not forget Rick Warren. And they have not and will not learn.

[still_one]

98. I think so-called religion should not even be a part of the ceremony, but isn't it

Too late?

[NCTraveler]

187. I would not mind if it were not a part of the ceremony.

That being said, they feel it must be. There are so many amazing Christians in this country. People doing amazing work helping society. If a platform is to be given, it should go to a religious member that is in line with the democratic party platform.

[Alduin]

9. I agree.

[Recursion]

12. No, you have it backwards. This is a way to piss off Dolan.

He didn't want to pray at the DNC but he got shamed into it because he's praying at the RNC. This is a good thing.

[msanthrope]

16. Absolutely. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

19. So it's all about this one guy? The insult to millions and the ugly message sent don't matter

because you think this is a burn to the Cardinal, being honored with this position? So they flip the bird to me and mine, yet again, in order to play trickster on some old cleric? How nice....

[msanthrope]

26. No...it's about avoiding a pissing match. Dolan asked since he was doing the RNC

and didn't want to appear biased...and the DNC called his bluff. He lost a bluff.

So now he gets to pray for the sinners in front of him....let him.

[sabrina 1]

126. Avoiding a pissing match? We are not talking about a pissing match we are talking about

the Constitutional Rights of American citizens being denied. A little more than a 'pissing match' imho.

So let's see, if an anti-minority bigot prays that minorities be denied civil rights at the RNC we should consider it a victory if the bigot agrees to pray at the DNC for the same thing also?

You know what, I would say let's not entertain bigots, period. Let's leave that to the Party of bigotry and draw a distinction between us and them. If there is one anymore, that is.

What you are saying is let's just all 'get along' in the area of bigotry for peace sake, or something.

Thank the gods those who fought for Civil Rights had the view that you never entertain bigotry for any reason. Pandering to bigots makes you look you approve of bigotry.

[Bluenorthwest]

179. Wait. So he didn't want to do it, but he asked to do it, and allowing him to do it insults him?

He asked. They said yes. When 'talent' calls and asks, they do not have to say yes. But they did. He got what he wanted. As did the Obama team.

[Lionessa]

34. Okay, I hadn't heard this, is there a link somewhere?

I'd like to confirm since Obama did have that CA nutjob homophobe do his inaugural, I feel skeptical but open to being wrong.

[pnwmom]

44. Exactly. nt

[Erose999]

15. Dolan. Where have I heard that name before?

[Doctor_J]

22. The "centrists" and triangulators now have their spot within the party

Old-school Dems who want to stay in the party are going to have to get used to getting their faces slapped. But when the redness goes away, please donate, walk the precinct, work the phones, and vote, dammit!

[Pab Sungenis]

60. No way. Not this time.

I'm done with the Obama campaign.

I'll walk and work for Cassandra Shober for Congress, and for our local Democrats. And I'll still vote for Obama only because I don't really have a choice this time.

But after that, I will work to put a progressive into the White House in 2017, no matter which party they come from. Preferably a progressive Democrat, but I'm never going to support a Third Way'er ever again.

[Gman]

24. I have no problem with this whatsoever

As do many if not most American Catholics, I don't agree with some messages, but it's still our faith.

[CrispyQ]

25. Prayer at political events is just wrong. --nt

[MuseRider]

31. Again?!?

I can't believe this. How offensive to all of us that we would have to listen to someone who is so foul that they do not believe in equality. President Obama should stop this now if he really is the true advocate some would have us believe. I am certain there are Catholics who do not believe there are second class citizens in our country that could be used for the prayer. FIND ONE if you must keep this disgusting habit of praying at all these events, at least choose people to pray that believe in the equality of all our citizens.

This should be intolerable and offensive to every single one of us here. Love the attempts to make it all pretty and tie it up in a nice little bow but it comes down to this, equality of all people. It would seem a difficult thing to defend this choice for a prayer but sadly it is not for a lot of posters here.

[Lionessa]

33. I believe we had to sit through a similar inaugural prayer by some CA homophobe evangelist.

As an atheist and supporter of civil rights (women, LGBT, non-whites, et al), it sickens me.

[kctim]

35. Very offensive comparison

To both, Catholics and African Americans.

[Marrah_G]

42. It is a completely legitimate comparison

It is only offensive if you don't think gblt rights are as important as rights based on race.

[kctim]

72. All rights are important

But the GLBT fight isn't no where near the same ballpark as the fight African Americans endured in the past.

[sibelian]

76. That assertion is grotesque. nt

[Pab Sungenis]

77. All rights are important

except for ones that are politically inconvenient?

And as for the struggles, maybe LGBT were never enslaved, but blacks were never subject to incarceration, castration, or even execution UNDER THE LAW because they were black.

Other than those two distinctions, there's not much difference.

[kctim]

82. Politics has nothing to do with it

Do you really think a slaveowner needed a law to incarcerate, castrate or execute a slave? "UNDER THE LAW" doesn't mean jack shit on that.

Not much difference?
GLBTs have not had to fight for their right to be considered a whole person. Their right to vote. Their right to be able to walk down the street without being indiscriminately hunted down and lynched. Their right to not be disqualified for a job before even being interviewed. GLBTs have not had an organization created with the sole purpose of destroying them.

I'll stand right with you and fight for the rights of GLBTs, but there is no way their fight is even remotely comparable to that of African Americans.

[MNBrewer]

122. You might want to re-evaluated some of your assertions

[DURHAM D]

123. "GLBTs have not had to fight for their right to be considered a whole person."

Wow.

[JackBeck]

128. I would think that LGBT People of Color would wholeheartedly disagree with you. n/t

[kctim]

175. Valid point

Especially in current times.

I would think though, that they experience racism more often, seeing how that is the only one of the two that can be brought about simply by observation.

[JackBeck]

181. For many LGBT People of Color, racism and homophobia/transphobia are not mutually exclusive.

Absolutely, they can exist separately. But, you are making broad-brush statements that minimizes an individual's own experience.

[kctim]

203. You are correct

I cannot know about such a persons experiences.

What I do know, however, is that they have not been pulled over for "driving while gay." Been randomly detained and interogated because a "witness" said a gay guy attacked her. Or had people go out of their way to avoid them because they "looked" gay.

If they were the victim of any of those actions, it wasn't because people THOUGHT they were gay, it was because they KNEW they were black.

[FreeState]

215. That happens to gay people all the time

What I do know, however, is that they have not been pulled over for "driving while gay."

You dont think this happens? I have been pulled over for this (and yes the officer knew I was gay before he pulled me over do to my bumper stickers.

Been randomly detained and interogated because a "witness" said a gay guy attacked her.

Um yeah this has never happened to a gay person ever. Google it- you would be surprised it still happens to this day for gay men (not because its a her, but because a straight person accuses a gay guy of all sorts of things, it happens daily.)

Or had people go out of their way to avoid them because they "looked" gay.

Really? Do you know any gay people? I've had people physically walk around me, point at me and laugh because I am gay.

If they were the victim of any of those actions, it wasn't because people THOUGHT they were gay, it was because they KNEW they were black.

It happened to me and many others because they KNOW we are gay.

[hughee99]

94. Under the law, slaveowners could basically do whatever they wanted with slaves

which I'm sure included incarceration and execution (and probably sometimes castration).

Not taking a side on this one way or another, but I suspect if you were arguing with someone more well versed on the history of slavery, they'd be able to give plenty of examples of people being incarcerated or even executed for "being black". You don't even have to go back to the days where slavery was legal to find that.

[Pab Sungenis]

107. Under the law?

No. There were trumped up charges against them, but under the law they couldn't be jailed or executed just because they were black.

Even until the end of the 20th century it was still possible under sodomy laws to arrest and imprison homosexuals in many states here in the US.

When the Nazi Concentration Camps were liberated the only class of prisoners that were NOT released were homosexuals since they were seen as having violated "valid" laws (namely Paragraph 175) and put into "reeducation" camps.

And people not that different from Cardinal Dolan here within the United States are campaigning to pass death penalty laws for homosexuals in other countries.

[Confusious]

116. Sorry, you're wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_codes

Slave codes were laws in each US state, which defined the status of slaves and the rights of masters. These codes gave slave-owners absolute power over the African slaves.

Absolute power. Life or death.

[Pab Sungenis]

121. Even if that's the case

the 13th Amendment ended that for blacks, but not for gays. Gays were still persecuted under the law until Lawrence v. Texas, and when it comes to employment, housing, and many other protections are still persecuted in the vast majority of states. And when it comes to marriage, they are still persecuted under Federal law.

[Confusious]

130. Blacks faced far worse even after the 13th

voting rights, job discrimination, lynchings, segregation, unequal justice.

What do you think the civil rights movement of the 60's was for? exercise?

It's a little easier to hide your sexual orientation then it is your skin color.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

A little of the usual for blacks.

[kwassa]

166. The 13th Amendment didn't end anything. You apparently don't know about Jim Crow.

You need to get to a history course. The 13th Amendment was completely undone by the creation of Jim Crow laws throughout the South in the late 1800s. It is a huge subject, and here is one little piece of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

Between 1890 and 1910, ten of the eleven former Confederate states, starting with Mississippi, passed new constitutions or amendments that effectively disfranchised most blacks and tens of thousands of poor whites through a combination of poll taxes, literacy and comprehension tests, and residency and record-keeping requirements.[6][7] Grandfather clauses temporarily permitted some illiterate whites to vote.

Voter turnout dropped drastically through the South as a result of such measures. For example, Alabama had tens of thousands of poor whites disfranchised.[8] In Louisiana, by 1900, black voters were reduced to 5,320 on the rolls, although they comprised the majority of the state's population. By 1910, only 730 blacks were registered, less than 0.5 percent of eligible black men. "In 27 of the state's 60 parishes, not a single black voter was registered any longer; in 9 more parishes, only one black voter was."[9] The cumulative effect in North Carolina meant that black voters were completely eliminated from voter rolls during the period from 1896–1904. The growth of their thriving middle class was slowed. In North Carolina and other Southern states, there were also the effects of invisibility: "[W]ithin a decade of disfranchisement, the white supremacy campaign had erased the image of the black middle class from the minds of white North Carolinians."[9]

Those who could not vote were not eligible to serve on juries and could not run for local offices. They effectively disappeared from political life, as they could not influence the state legislatures, and their interests were overlooked. While public schools had been established by Reconstruction legislatures for the first time in most Southern states; those for black children were consistently underfunded compared to schools for white children, even when considered within the strained finances of the postwar South where the decreasing price of cotton kept the agricultural economy at a low.

The main tool used to terrorize blacks was, of course, lynching.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

Lynching, the practice of killing people by extrajudicial mob action, occurred in the United States chiefly from the late 18th century through the 1960s. Lynchings took place most frequently in the Southern United States from 1890 to the 1920s, with a peak in the annual toll in 1892. However, lynchings were also very common in the Old West.

It is associated with re-imposition of White supremacy in the South after the Civil War. The granting of civil rights to freedmen in the Reconstruction era (1865–77) aroused anxieties among white citizens, who came to blame African Americans for their own wartime hardship, economic loss, and forfeiture of social privilege. Black Americans, and Whites active in the pursuit of equal rights, were frequently lynched in the South during Reconstruction. Lynchings reached a peak in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when Southern states changed their constitutions and electoral rules to disfranchise most blacks and many poor whites, and, having regained political power, enacted a series of segregation and Jim Crow laws to reestablish White supremacy. Notable lynchings of civil rights workers during the 1960s in Mississippi contributed to galvanizing public support for the Civil Rights Movement and civil rights legislation.

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968.[1] Southern states created new constitutions between 1890 and 1910, with provisions that effectively disfranchised most blacks, as well as many poor whites. People who did not vote were excluded from serving on juries, and most blacks were shut out of the official political system.

[Raster]

131. "no where near the same ballpark"

Tell that to all the LGBT kids that have killed themselves. Tell that to LGBT persons that have been brutally harrassed. Tell that to the LGBT persons that have been murdered because of their sexual identities.

I would like to respond to you further, but I would probably get banned for verbalizing what I truly feel.

I am Gay. I was born this way. My life, my loves, my dreams, my hopes, MY FUCKING RIGHTS are just as important, just as pertinent as anyone else's.

You have a nice day.

[kctim]

176. Sigh

As I said, I know rights are just as important, that is why I said the FIGHT for them is what is not comparable.

[Occulus]

148. "All rights are important, but"

FUCK. YOU.

jury: I was going to take it out, but I'd say the same- and probably more- to a stranger saying the same thing, so I'll take my chances here.

[dbackjon]

201. Bullshit

Fuck you if you don't think they are in the same ballpark

[4th law of robotics]

129. The catholic church isn't lynching homosexuals

or blowing up gay clubs.

I see a rather large degree of difference.

[Raster]

137. Not yet they aren't. Per catholic tradition, the preferred method would probably be burning.

you know those catholics, they love to burn to cleanse.

No, the catholic church isn't physically lynching anyone yet. However, they are taking the first steps to disenfranchise LGBT persons. What do you think the Proposition H8 bullshit was? Seriously. It is the church's calculated way to limit the rights and freedoms of LGBT persons.

[4th law of robotics]

140. Yeah that's a pretty huge leap

You can make anyone seem ominous by saying they haven't done X "yet".

There are plenty of people who say "yeah, Obama hasn't started rounding up white people in to concentration camps . . . YET!".

Doesn't make it a meaningful statement though.

And the burnings ended a long time ago. Muslims in 2012 are stoning homosexuals to death but they don't get this treatment on here.

[Raster]

144. Not really. The catholic church is virulently homophobic and would prefer to send all LGBT

....persons back into their closets, holes or prisons and as deep as possible. For the church it is just one step at a time. The current "Vicar of Christ on Earth" considers LGBT persons just a step or two above murderers.

And don't look now, but here in Washington State, where gay marriage will be on the ballot, the catholic church is actively courting the muslim vote to "protect traditional marriage."

Obviously you are not gay, nor do you have anyone LGBT persons close to you in your life. If you did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, which is now at an end.

Have a nice day.

[4th law of robotics]

146. Your statements do not follow any logical pattern

Obviously you are not gay, nor do you have anyone LGBT persons close to you in your life. If you did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, which is now at an end.

See? This doesn't make any sense.

The catholic church is not to homosexuals as the KKK is to blacks (as I and others have pointed out).

So the rest of your argument doesn't logically follow.

Does the catholic church love gays and support their rights? Obviously not. Are they murdering them in large numbers? No. See the difference?

[Occulus]

153. To me, as a gay man, it does make sense.

The roman Catholic church would like nothing more than to not have gay people around any more. They most certainly would 'get rid of us' if they thought they could get away with it. Other christian sects are trying very hard to go much further than the KKK ever considered (specifically, in Uganda) because they can get away with it there. it is not sane to say that sentiment is.t present in the US.

I know for a stone cold fact I'm not the only gay man who sees the Roman Catholic Church that way. By the way: don't presume to speak for me. You. Fucking. Don't.

[4th law of robotics]

155. Question:

does the Catholic church have as part of it's official dogma killing homosexuals? Do members routinely practice this dogma and in fact beat or kill homosexuals on a regular basis?

Because that's what the KKK does to blacks. So for them to be the same the Catholics better clearly state their intent to exterminate homosexuals and regularly send out adherents to do exactly that.

I know for a stone cold fact I'm not the only gay man who sees the Roman Catholic Church that way. By the way: don't presume to speak for me. You. Fucking. Don't.

Of course not. I'm speaking for me and reality. You're on your own.

/the catholic church would rather have all non-catholics "see the light" and change their wicked ways. Are they out to exterminate the jews and protestants and muslims and hindus and atheists and . . . .?

[Heywood J]

171. Yes

does the Catholic church have as part of it's official dogma killing homosexuals? Do members routinely practice this dogma and in fact beat or kill homosexuals on a regular basis?

Off the top of my head:

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
<...>
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

Early Christian law:

Theodosian Code 9.7.3: When a man marries [a man] as a woman offering herself to men (quum vir nubit in feminam viris porrecturam), what can he be seeking, where gender has lost its place; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed to another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be, guilty may be subjected to exquisite punishment.
Theodosian Code 9.7.6: All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man's body, acting the part of a woman's to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind in avenging flames in the sight of the people.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-70-Stoned-to-Death-for-Homosexuality-Police-118243719.html

Suspect said the Old Testament told him that gays must be stoned, police say
<...>
Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that gays should be stoned to death. When Seidman allegedly made sexual advances toward him over a period of time, Thomas said he received a message in his prayers that he must end Seidman’s life, according to court documents.

(I think someone will try to blame this on mental illness, but then fail to explain why when a person hears God or Jesus under other circumstances or telling them to do something else, it's not mental illness)

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/africa/28uganda.html?_r=1

Ugandan Who Spoke Up for Gays Is Beaten to Death
<...>
As the most outspoken gay rights advocate in Uganda, a country where homophobia is so severe that Parliament is considering a bill to execute gay people, Mr. Kato had received a stream of death threats, his friends said. A few months ago, a Ugandan newspaper ran an antigay diatribe with Mr. Kato’s picture on the front page under a banner urging, “Hang Them.
<...>
On Wednesday afternoon, Mr. Kato was beaten to death with a hammer in his rough-and-tumble neighborhood.
<...>
Ms. Kalende was referring to visits in March 2009 by a group of American evangelicals, who held rallies and workshops in Uganda discussing how to turn gay people straight, how gay men sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” intended to “defeat the marriage-based society.”

http://identitykenya.com/index.php/homepage/featured/241-gay-man-stoned-to-death-in-nairobi-slum

The deceased - Kamau - it is said, was held down and beaten and later stoned to death. His body was found dumped at the dump site next to where they were caught. He had suffered severe head and body injuries.

Sorry, I ran out of time to come up with more. Work calls, or I'd come up with more fire and brimstone.

[4th law of robotics]

173. Would you say the jews are likewise an anti-gay hate group akin to the KKK?

Since you know they follow the old testament and all.

[Heywood J]

216. Most religions would seem to fit the definition of a hate group.

No religion is composed of saints and pointless hyperbole won't solve the fact that it exists to promote a division of "us versus them".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/06/israel.gayrights

Riots by ultra-Orthodox Jews in protest at a gay pride march scheduled to take place in Jerusalem later this week have led police to warn that the risk of violence is now too great to allow it to go ahead.

For several days ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere have attacked police officers, burned rubbish bins and blocked off roads in an attempt to halt the parade. Six policemen have been injured and 60 rioters arrested in the past week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16335603

The latest clashes came as police attempted to remove one of several signs in the town ordering segregation between the sexes.

Some 300 ultra-Orthodox residents pelted the police with stones and eggs, slightly injuring one officer, and rubbish bins were set on fire.

A television crew attempting to film in the town were also surrounded and harassed - the second alleged attack in two days on journalists.

On Sunday, a crew from Channel 2 news were attacked as they were filming, say reports, with rocks allegedly thrown at their van.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/sinful-city-buses-stoned-by-ultraorthodox-jews-1631370.html

It is an all too familiar scene: the Israeli bus, travelling near predominantly Palestinian East Jerusalem, is pelted with stones that smash windows and startle passengers. Except this time the stone-throwers are not Arabs but Jews. The violence is part of an unholy war in which strident elements of the ultra-Orthodox community in Mea Shearim are trying to force Israel's leading bus company – and, by extension, Israeli society – to defer to their strict religious teachings and sensibilities.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/26/jewish-gender-segregation-protest-in-israel-turns-violent/

Several demonstrators were taken in for questioning after police, and journalists were roughed up and insulted by ultra-Orthodox men telling them to “clear off,” the journalist said.

There were also shouting matches between ultra-Orthodox and secular Jews.
<...>
The Haaretz newspaper said the cameraman from commercial station Channel Two was thrown to the ground and his sound recordist grabbed by the throat in the attack by ultra-Orthodox men.

Other journalists were also attacked and a police car stoned.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/violence-between-ultra-orthodox-sects-rocks-jerusalem-neighborhood-1.392357

On Tuesday night a group of Hasidim brutally attacked Avraham Hirschman, 36, a father of six, with clubs, kicks and blows. Hirschman was hospitalized with fractures and other serious injuries.

"They said we'll murder you," Hirschman told Haaretz. "The police knew in advance they were planning the attack but didn't lift a finger."
<...>
Six months ago an angry crowd burst into Hirschman's house and set it on fire. His wife and baby daughter were rescued in the nick of time.

On Tuesday night he was heading home from the synagogue when a group of 10 or 15 Gerrer Hasids, some of them wearing masks, attacked him, he said. They beat him brutally even after he lay bleeding on the road. He recognized at least one of them and gave his name to the police, but they did not arrest anyone, he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4274106,00.html

Two weeks after an Arab youth was brutally assaulted by Jewish teens in Jerusalem, nine suspects have been indicted for their involvement in the case.

Indictments were filed with the Jerusalem District Court against Shimon Siman Tov, 19, for incitement to violence and racially motivated aggravated assault, as well as against seven other teens. A teenage girl was charged with incitement to violence.

The girl was joined by other teens who called to attack the Arabs. "Whoever wants to shows that he's a man go and hit the Arabs," one of them said. The girl then started making racist slurs such as "Mohammad is dead" and "Death to Arabs." Several Arabs were chased away from the scene, some by force.

According to the indictment, at around midnight, a large group of teens started marching towards Zion Square while shouting racist slurs. At one point, one of the defendants noticed an Arab man passing by and tried to kick him. Several Jewish teens encircled there other Arabs who managed to escape.

[hr]
Lest you think this is only typical of Abrahamic religions...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence

The 2002 Gujarat violence was a series of incidents including the Godhra train burning and the subsequent communal riots between Hindus and Muslims in the Indian state of Gujarat. On 27 February 2002, the Sabarmati Express train was attacked at Godhra by a Muslim mob[2][3] as per a preplanned conspiracy.[4] 58 Hindu pilgrims, including 25 women and 15 children, returning from Ayodhya, were killed in the attack. This in turn prompted retaliatory attacks against Muslims and general communal riots on a large scale across the state, in which 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were ultimately killed and 223 more people were reported missing.[1][5] 523 places of worship were damaged: 298 dargahs, 205 mosques, 17 temples, and 3 churches. Muslim-owned businesses suffered the bulk of the damage. 61,000 Muslims and 10,000 Hindus fled their homes. Preventive arrests of 17,947 Hindus and 3,616 Muslims were made. In total 27,901 Hindus and 7,651 Muslims were arrested.[6][7][8]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7628740.stm

In the past week, more than 20 churches have been desecrated by the Hindu hardline group Bajrang Dal.

The group's leader in the state Mahendra Kumar has been arrested.

He has admitted his group carried out attacks on churches in the state, saying Hindus were being illegally converted to Christianity in the area.
<...>
At least 20 people - most of them Christians - were killed after a Hindu religious leader there was shot dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7649984.stm

The 29-year-old nun lodged a complaint on 25 August alleging rape by a member of a Hindu mob in Kandhamal district.

Police are criticised for being slow to act - they say they have been trying to keep the peace in the area, which has seen weeks of Hindu-Christian violence.
<...>
She was taken to an abandoned house where she was raped by a member of the mob, she said in her complaint filed on 25 August.

She also alleged that she was paraded naked through the streets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/04/us-myanmar-violence-idUSBRE85308Z20120604

Buddhist vigilantes in western Myanmar attacked a passenger bus and killed nine Muslims, police said on Monday, the deadliest communal violence in the tense region since a reformist government took power a year ago.

The bus was besieged near Taunggoke town in the western state of Rakhine on Sunday evening by a group who blamed some of its passengers for the murder of a Buddhist woman a week ago, said local residents and politicians. One of those killed was travelling in a separate car.

Rakhine is home to Myanmar's largest concentration of Muslims, but their presence is often resented by the Buddhist majority. The resentment is particularly sharp for Rohingya Muslims, whose roots date back to the 1820s when they were brought to the country as laborers by colonial power Britain.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/15/thailand-s-buddhists-take-up-arms-against-insurgency.html

Amid the violence, security measures have also transformed Buddhist temples. Many government troops in the deep south are based on the sprawling, walled-in temple grounds. Soldiers protect monks and worshippers from insurgent attacks, while benefiting from the monasteries’ existing infrastructure. Buddhist insecurity has even spawned soldier monks—new Army recruits who are pulled aside by superiors and offered a chance to become ordained monks so that they can eventually move to monasteries in the contested provinces and serve as hybrid servants of the state, according to U.S. academic Michael Jerryson. He has dedicated months of field research to the phenomenon, which he says was conceived by the queen.
<...>
For others, such incidents obscure an equally harsh reality: the insurgency has put the region’s Buddhists on the defensive, with no end to the violence in sight. HuaHui, a long-bearded villager, exemplifies the kind of self-appointed power that the militia system offers Buddhists. At the entrance to his restaurant, he sits behind a makeshift bunker, holding an M-15 assault rifle. He keeps a cache of weapons on hand, along with special bullets designed to overcome “the voodoo of insurgents.” He’s been the target of drive-by shootings and bomb attacks more than a dozen times, he says. In the latest incident, “a month ago gunfire struck guests.” HuaHui sometimes patrols his district in a pickup truck, paying visits to friends—both Muslim and Buddhist—and making his presence felt to those he suspects of being on the “wrong side.”

http://tv.ibtimes.com/headline-buddhist-mob-beats-10-muslims-to-death-in-myanmar-communal-violence-spreads/5931.html

Tensions flared in northwestern Myanmar after 10 Muslims were beaten to death by a mob of Buddhist vigilantes Sunday, in retaliation for the rape and murder of a girl allegedly by Muslim men.

About 300 people belonging to the Buddhist majority stopped a bus carrying Muslims from a religious gathering, dragged 10 of them out and beat them to death before burning the vehicle in Taunggup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo


[hr]

Can't forget this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

The Taiping Rebellion was a widespread civil war in southern China from 1850 to 1864, against the ruling Manchu-led Qing Dynasty. It was led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan, who, having claimed to have received visions, maintained that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ [2]. About 20 million people died, mainly civilians, in one of the deadliest military conflicts in history.

Nor could we ever forget the religious side of The Troubles. Whose kneecaps would Jesus use a power drill on?

[hr]

I have not yet even begun to pluck the low-hanging fruit that is the Crusades, witch-burnings, religious slavery, the Conquistadors, 9/11, the Inquisition, etc.

It's amazing what you can do to another human being when they don't share the same sky-god as you. It's also amazing to watch believers hand-wave away this stuff, claiming that their faith is as pure and innocent as the driven snow, when the textbooks and graves are full of examples to the contrary.

As Giles Corey once said, "More weight!"

[4th law of robotics]

217. Interesting

so Jews, Christians and presumably muslims, hindus and the rest are no different than the klan?

Well that's a winning strategy. I predict a democratic blow out with that campaign.

[Heywood J]

218. Goodbye.

I'm sure that your required sacrifice of unbelievers will fill the time you would otherwise spend in response to this post.

Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

[4th law of robotics]

220. Gasp!

If I had pearls I'd be clutching them right now!

You have surely proven that Jew = KKK member.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

185. Thank you.

Glad I'm not the only one who was disgusted by the OP.

[OmahaBlueDog]

194. Thank you!

The Catholic Church has its faults, but they are not the Klan.

[dbackjon]

200. I find you very offensive to Gay Americans

Or anyone that cares about equality for all Americans

[kctim]

209. Then you aren't listening

I have not said or even suggested that Gay Americans have not, are not, facing their own issues with equal rights. I just do not believe their fight is comparable to that of African Americans.

[Bigmack]

38. We don't want to slight the Santeria voters, so let's...

... sacrifice a chicken and spray the blood around.

After all... one primitive ritual is as good as another.

[Cleita]

41. That's really a slap in the face to the liberal wing of the party.

But it's also indicative of how much the party has swung to slightly right of center. Maybe it's time for Occupy the Convention by the 99% that Dolan does not represent.

[pnwmom]

47. No, it's just a strategic move against the Republicans.

They can no longer make it appear that, with Dolan's benediction, the GOP has an official Catholic endorsement.

This is forcing the Church to behave in a neutral fashion. They SAID it wasn't an endorsement, it was just a blessing. Obama called their bluff.

[MNBrewer]

50. Maybe, but what is the fkkin bigot in the red robe going to be spouting off about?

Same sex marriage? The evils of abortion? This is idiotic to have an agent of intolerance as a featured speaker.

[pnwmom]

55. It'll just be a quick, routine blessing -- it's not a sermon. n/t

[Pab Sungenis]

63. "It's only one prayer."

We've heard that one time too many. No, screw that, we've heard that 5,000 times too many.

[MNBrewer]

80. 1. Then why have it at all?

2. You haven't heard very many prayers if you think they're not sermons.

[pnwmom]

83. To pop the air out of the GOP publicity balloon.

They've been pretending that Dolan doing this blessing at their convention means they have his endorsement. Now they can't.

It's going to be one quick prayer out of several led by different denominations, and these things have been done for a couple centuries. Now the GOP won't be able to pretend it means more than it does.

[Bluenorthwest]

186. Yeah, the GOP always respects the truth! They can still say they have his endorsement, and

they will. MittCo flatly announced that they will not let facts stand in the way of their message. And you really think the Republican machine will not say whatever it wants to say? When did they ever show shame at mendacity?

[pnwmom]

196. self-delete

[Occulus]

154. that doesn't matter a bit

[MNBrewer]

221. I'm curious whether you think your prediction was accurate.

THat it was a quick, routine blessing, and NOT a sermon, because it sure looked sermony to THIS gay man whose right to marriage was targeted during the "blessing".

[Pab Sungenis]

62. So once again my rights and my human dignity

are nothing more than pawns to be sacrificed in the game of 400 dimensional chess. No thank you.

[Cleita]

70. Some practicing, lay Catholics support the Church unquestioningly.

They believe they get a different set of rules to live by than the clergy. You know they can practice birth control and believe the Church, wink, wink, really doesn't mind and will grant them absolution all the time in confession. The clergy allows them to believe that because they need the collection plate revenues, but in truth they believe they are going to Hell. Those lay Catholics will defend clergy like Dolan because they really think they are just cranky and it's only a prayer. Dolan OTH is working to make contraception unavailable to all Catholics with help from the Vatican and legislators because that is what the Church truly believes and they are biding their time.

[pnwmom]

84. More than 95% of Catholics have used birth control.

And they don't bother reporting it in Confession, which is a dying sacrament.

[Cleita]

85. You are exactly what I'm referring to.

You think you have your own rules. You don't have to go to confession to receive communion. The clergy doesn't agree with you. They think you are going to Hell.

[pnwmom]

88. I know. I love it when non-Catholics like you tell Catholics

that we support the bishops unquestioningly at the same time that you scold us for not following the bishops rules.



Sorry, but no one I know follows the bishops unquestioningly, or takes seriously non-Catholics like you who want to insist we're not real Catholics unless we do so.

[Cleita]

91. au contraire.

I am baptized, attended parochial school, Catholic high school and Catholic women's college. I know my Catholic doctrine and Catholic clergy well. I have a friend in the convent that I've known since high school. (She has told me I'm going to Hell and that she prays for me every day that I will get last rites before I die so I can go to Heaven.) Believe me you are deluding yourself if you think you can make up your own rules. People like you are called cafeteria Catholics. You think you can pick and choose what you will believe in and how you will practice your religion. The Church tolerates you, but they really believe you are going to Hell.

[pnwmom]

99. I know you are a FORMER Catholic.

That still doesn't give you the right to lecture Catholics today on what they believe or who they support.

Virtually ALL Catholics are "cafeteria Catholics" -- especially including the fundie Catholics like Paul Ryan, who ignore all the Catholic doctrine on social welfare issues.

[Cleita]

104. My dear, my dear if you only knew Church doctrine, you would know that isn't true.

Once baptized and confirmed you are forever a Catholic, even if you choose not to practice or even if you are excommunicated. The fact that you left the fold of the Church only earns you a hotter place in Hell than just plain sinning does. However, you are never let go.

There is no Catholic doctrine on social welfare issues as such. There is what Jesus said and some Papal encyclicals about our responsibility to the poor and in favor of labor unions. There is no papal bull or proclamation that says the poor must be taken care of. Some Catholics think that just giving your old clothes to the St. Vincent De Paul Society meets that obligation. I think Paul Ryan is probably one of them.

[pnwmom]

108. Your Catholic education appears to be rusty.

The Popes have issued encyclicals and the Bishops have issued letters on social welfare issues; and together with "what Jesus said," -- which was a LOT -- these constitute Catholic doctrine.

I'm sure you've heard the term "preferential option for the poor." That comes from an encyclical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching

[Cleita]

109. Statements are not doctrine.

Here is something you should read to catch up on what your religion really teaches.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

[pnwmom]

114. Thank you for proving my point. You must have missed Part 3, Chapter 2, Article 3.

"Social Justice"

For example:

1932 The duty of making oneself a neighbor to others and actively serving them becomes even more urgent when it involves the disadvantaged, in whatever area this may be. "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."38

[Cleita]

115. And do look up what kind of sin it is if you don't.

I think you will find it non-existent, unlike what kind of sin it is if you kill someone.

[pnwmom]

125. Some sins are mortal, some are venial.

It all depends on the individual circumstance.

I'm having more and more trouble believing that you actually had a Catholic education.

[Cleita]

133. Same here about you.

There is no sin attached to not doing social service, either venial or mortal because there is no doctrine or commandment about it. It's something the church in the past suggested as a good thing to do. But today as the church becomes more and more conservative, it's moving away from that. This is why jerks like Paul Ryan can believe they are upstanding Catholics and still not give a damn about the poor.

[pnwmom]

135. Ever hear of the sin of gluttony? Or did they skip that at your school?

It includes being greedy in general -- like the 1% refusing to pay their fair share of taxes.

There are sins of "commission" -- like actively hurting someone else.
And there are sins of "omission" -- like failing to take care of needy people around you.

Both can be serious sins, according to Catholic theology.

[Cleita]

143. Oh dear there is no doctrine that you have to pay your taxes.

The Church only suggests you render to Caesar if Caesar says pay up. But there is no sin if you don't. Actually, we commit sins of omission according to the Church regularly by allowing our Government to sin in our place and doing nothing about it.

[Cleita]

119. And what is the sin if you don't?

Catholic edicts have no teeth without sins attached to them and this one has no sin attached to it. That's why the fundie Catholics can ignore it. Read the third part of the Catechism about Catholic morality and what they consider good acts and evil acts.

[pnwmom]

138. What do you mean, "what is the sin if you don't"?

I just explained. Gluttony and greed, according to the Catholic Church, are sins.

And there are sins of "commission" as well as of "omission."
Sins related to things you have done (actively hurting others), and things you have failed to do (not helping others).

And the consequence of sin, according to Catholic theology, is that it separates you from God, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the individual situation.

[Cleita]

141. Yes, and you are encouraged to give alms, but no one says you have to.

There is no sin to ignoring the plight of people who need social justice. That's why Ryan can do it and still consider himself a good Catholic, but God forbid if he uses a condom. That is a sin unless there is another reason for the use and not to prevent conception, for instance not to transmit an std to your partner. I kid you not a friend of mine, who contracted some infection, not sex related in her case but that could be passed through sex to her husband was told by the priest then it was okay to use a condom until the infection cleared up.

[pnwmom]

145. You are wrong. Sins of omission -- not giving the alms --

can be just as serious as sins of commission. Depending, again, on the situation. A wealthy person has a much greater obligation in this regard.

Ryan may consider himself a good Catholic, but his theology is not Catholic theology -- not according to the nuns representing of the LCWR (representing 80% of all nuns) or the Catholic bishops who wrote an official letter this year decrying the Ryan House budget because of its effects on the poor and middle class.

[Cleita]

149. If they really could pin a sin on him, they could excommunicate him, but there is no doctrine

there for them to do it. However, if he got a divorce, they could excommunicate him. It would fall under the commandment about adultery. That is a big sin although this punishment is seldom used if people divorce. It's all very skewed and based on the Ten Commandments, which are not very useful in this day and age and there is no commandment that says you have to take care of the poor.

[pnwmom]

164. You really don't understand the Church. They don't excommunicate

people whom they can "pin a sin on." Catholic theology teaches that ALL people are sinners. We just sin -- fail to act lovingly and morally -- in different ways.

Also, they don't excommunicate people for getting divorced. They simply don't recognize civil divorce -- in other words, the couple would remain married in the eyes of the Church. The ex-communication comes only if someone gets remarried without getting a Catholic annulment of their first marriage.

Many Catholics, including some Priests, disagree with this one sin (remarriage after divorce) being singled out for ex-communication. A priest advised one woman I know to go ahead and get remarried, and to continue to take the Sacraments; because he thought the annulment process would be too hard on her mentally ill former husband.

The priests in actual parishes tend to be much more compassionate than Bishops (and former Catholics who get unhappy when Catholics don't follow the rules).

[cleanhippie]

147. Yet another example of the divisive nature of religion.

The sooner people learn to keep their religious beliefs to themselves, the better off we all will be.

[sabrina 1]

211. Since it has become necessary to try to explain this away and since many people are not

getting this supposedly clever 'strategy', how about the Democratic Party NOT emulate the party of hate at all? How about we do not ever entertain bigots?

There are plenty of Christian Pastors who support Gay Rights. And at least half of all Catholics are not represented by this man, that would be the Progressive Democratic half, of which I am one. He, DOES NOT speak for me. So whose votes are the Democratic Party trying to get by this invitation?

If anything they risk LOSING votes over this. They will never, ever get the votes of those Catholics for whom this man DOES speak. I know some of them, and they will simply roll their eyes at Dems thinking this will get their votes, and praise him for his tolerance of the sinful, Liberals who promote these sins.

So break it down for me please. Whose votes are Dems trying to get by doing this?

[Jakes Progress]

46. DNC=reagan democrats

The tea party stole the republican party. reagan democrats took the Democratic Party.

Everybody took one big step right. Progressives were pushed off the cliff.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Seeing as how most conventions are dead bores, most of the audience will be sleeping.

Or, if conventioneers, will be drunk or putting the make on someone.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

54. God Hates Figs

[elbloggoZY27]

57. Religion & Politics

I thought there is supposed to be Separation Between Church & State. Our religious beliefs should remain private.

When I vote I look at the whole person.

[karynnj]

58. Not equivilent

I am sure the President will NOT revoke the invitation and doing so would be politically disastrous.

PS I disagree with the him on many issues and am not a Catholic.

[Pab Sungenis]

64. Thank you for demeaning my rights.

Have a nice day.

*plonk.*

[karynnj]

150. No one - not Obama or me - are demeaning your rights

The fact is that there are MANY Catholic Democrats and to them their faith speaks of the need for social justice. Things like feeding the poor, healing the sick etc I will bet you that neither abortion or gay rights or gay marriage will be mentioned. There is a huge overlap between the values of the Catholic church and the Democratic party - and I will be shocked if that is not what is spoken of.

As to the KKK, what values did they have that anyone could agree with?

My point is that turning him down - or worse, removing him from this will have a political impact.

Even if the only thing important to you is gay rights (something that I don't think is true), don't you agree that the BEST thing you can do this year is to reelect Obama. Romney and the Republicans are on record as to what they want to do.

This is an issue that it is also important to me as the mother of two gay daughters and the sister (and a sister-in reality (not law) ) of a couple together for over 25 years. However I really think it unrealistic to expect the President to disinvite this man.

[Bluenorthwest]

188. The invitation should never have been extended.

Your daughters and the others can, in most States, be fired or refused employment, evicted or denied housing for being gay. You could be constantly advocating immediate action and equality now.
You are instead defending the presence of an active and loud opponent of equal rights for your own children at the DNC.
Interesting choice you are making.

[karynnj]

195. To everything there is a season

The point I am making is that the one thing that can be done this year is to re-elect Obama, who has done more on this than any President.

I would have wanted a better choice, but the fact is that was the person selected and I really do not think that having to hear his prayer is worse than losing any votes over this.

[pnwmom]

59. This will be one blessing among several and it forces the Church

to behave in a neutral manner.

Before now, the GOP was pretending that Dolan's appearance at their convention constituted some kind of endorsement. Now they can't. I was hoping Obama would do this.

It's not a sermon, by the way; it's just a routine blessing -- among several by leaders of other denominations.

http://ncronline.org/news/politics/cardinal-dolan-pray-close-both-parties-conventions

"It was made clear to the Democratic Convention organizers, as it was to the Republicans, that the cardinal was coming solely as a pastor, only to pray, not to endorse any party, platform, or candidate," said Zwilling's statement.

Clergy from several denominations are scheduled to pray at the opening and closing of each day's sessions of the party conventions. The tradition of such prayers goes back more than 100 years.

[Scootaloo]

61. He doesn't stand on the Democratic platform...

So why are the democrats putting him on stage?

[pnwmom]

66. To make it clear that he's not endorsing the GOP when he does the same thing

at their convention. He's just offering a neutral, routine blessing at both events.

This pops some air out of the GOP publicity balloon.

[Taverner]

65. It's fucked up, but this is not how you deal with it`

The Catholic church is going to have to convene a Vatican III, or go the way of the dinosaur I am afraid

But revoking this bigot will just piss off the Center Left Catholics - and we desperately need these people to vote, and eventually realize how stupid their religion is.

And that won't happen if we go after them in this way

[Pab Sungenis]

67. Then how do we deal with it?

Sit down and shut up like the good little faggot they want me to be? No way.

I'm sick and tired of these insults by a supposedly "evolving" President.

[Taverner]

162. No don't take it - or rather TAKE it, don't take it?

The preacher lost. Period. It is legal. Open the floodgates. Proliferate.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." -- Carl Sagan

There is no "evolving" with the preacher. Write him off.

Obama, like I say, is the best we are going to GET.

I'd love it if Stewart Alexander, SPUSA President, was President. But he isn't. We have to fight - constantly - but you have to pick your battles wisely.

[Solly Mack]

68. Damn.

Bigots should never be encouraged.

[Raster]

97. No they should not. Bigots should be slapped down HARD whenever they are encountered...

...no matter how they dress, no matter who they prey to.

[Zorra]

71. Hey, the Catholic Church doesn't even think women are worthy enough persons to be priests.

It's a double whammy.

We got combination homophobe/sexist closing our convention.



Not. Cool. At. All.

[Raster]

152. But hey, it's OK, 'cause it's just one little prayer.

And we'll show those darned repuglicans. We can be just as bigoted, homophobic and misogynistic as they can.

And all you LGBT peeps, get to the back of the bus where you belong. At least you're not being lynched.

Oh yeah, and it could be worse, you could be in Uganda or one of them-there muslim countries where they kill people like you.

[pediatricmedic]

74. The KKK basically is giving benediction at the DNC

The opening includes a 2 hour Islamic 'Jumah'.

I don't understand how this can be supported?

Islam is just as bad as the fundamentalist Christians that the Repubs support. Islam does not support gay marriage and pronounces a death sentence to anyone that would be in the LGBT community. Islam's record on women's rights is also dismal if not downright hostile.

Religion should not be a part of the convention at all.

[DerekG]

75. Hardly the worst transgression in that room

These are people who support drone strikes, assassinations of U.S. citizens, the destruction of the Constitution, and austerity measures, and you're upset that the guy giving them a "blessing" is against gay marriage?

[MrSlayer]

78. I'm still pissed about the slap in the face of labor.

By having this scab convention in a scab state set up by scabo workers in a scab hall while staying at scab hotels.

[Pab Sungenis]

79. One thing's for sure.

We need to shake up this party, take it back from the conservatives that took it over in the 1990's.

[Electrominuette]

193. Right on

You're right!

[JI7]

87. if it would help Elect someone who would end Segregation and prevent someone HOrrible

from getting into office, maybe.

[Riftaxe]

89. Your comparing a Catholic bishop

who has ugly prayers to the Klanbake convention of '24?

[Pab Sungenis]

92. Yes.

The Catholic Bishop has repeatedly campaigned to strip LGBT*.* Americans of their rights the same way the Klan fought for Jim Crow. And the rhetoric of the friendly faces of the movement (like Dolan) are a mask for the Night Riders who go around gay bashing and murdering LGBT*.*.

[Riftaxe]

100. A speaker is hardly the same

as having fucking nutballs write planks for a national party.

I can't even understand how that could be on the same level as someone who begs a magical person in the sky to perform some voodoo that will change a specific person's mind...I am fairly certain that the Bishop will not get the result he is looking for

[Pab Sungenis]

103. By having this bigot speak

they are endorsing his ideas whether they like it or not. They are giving him a megaphone to speak with.

[loyalsister]

93. There's no distinction between a person who would happily kill you

vs. one who would pray for your "hell bound soul"?? Yes, I get that praying to change people and not valuing people enough to believe their relationships are worthy of marriage is offensive. But, it is no where near so malicious as the proud history of hanging people and burning their houses down.
There was a time when I was having some medical problems and a distant family member who happened to be an elder in the mormon church offered to do an official blessing before a surgery. This atheist woman who had committed unknown number of sins that would place my value in doubt in that church went to their home for the blessing where he said a prayer and rubbed some oil on my head. I know that as a woman who took pleasure in smoking, drinking liquor, and enjoying my morning coffee with the man I lived with unmarried I was blacklisted in mormon culture. But, it made my parents, grandma, sisters, feel better about the upcoming events, and it didn't cost me anything. I have a history that would freak my catholic grandma out. But, she's consistent and well meaning. A big part of her catholic participation is caring about people who are poor.
I feel like there are people who can have offensive attitudes that are not necessarily malicious. Certainly in our personal lives, but also in politics, focusing on common ground among ourselves can be beneficial.

[mucifer]

105. Well said! nt

[renie408]

113. +1

[mmonk]

96. As someone who is joining a Franciscan Church (to keep the family together),

I'm offended at the choice.

[JackBeck]

101. GLAAD: American Catholics Support Marriage Equality Despite Church Position

Recent statements and polling data have again demonstrated that the Roman Catholic hierarchy is completely out of touch with the beliefs and values of the people they are supposed to represent. A New York Times/CBS News poll conducted between February 8 and 13, 2012 shows that over two-thirds of Catholics believe that gay and lesbian couples deserve some sort of relationship recognition. The poll also found that forty-four percent of Catholics believe that gay and lesbian couples should be able to marry, and that quarter of Catholics support civil unions.

It has been clear for some time now that the Roman Catholic hierarchy is out of step with lay Catholics on a range of social issues, from marriage equality to contraception. This data is in keeping with a poll conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) who, last month, published a report that compiled data collected in July and August of 2011 about religious affiliation, age, and support for marriage equality. This poll found that support for marriage equality is higher across the board among millennials (those born in the 1980s through the early 2000s), regardless of the official doctrine of their religion. This divide can be seen even among supportive religious groups like Catholics; about 55% of all Catholics and 66% of Catholic millennials support marriage equality.

A recent article in the Washington Post, written by New Ways Ministry Co-Founder Sister Jeannine Gramick and Francis DeBernardo, New Ways Ministry’s executive director, addresses the Catholic case for marriage equality. New Ways Ministry is a member of Equally Blessed, which brings together Ca tholics who advocate for LGBT inclusion within the church. In their article, Sister Gramick and DeBernardo state that the argument in favor of marriage equality rests not only on the multitudes of changes to the ‘definition of marriage’ that can be seen in the Christian Bible, but also on Catholic social doctrine.

Sister Gramick and DeBernardo write:

Catholic social teaching requires that all people be treated with dignity, regardless of their state in life or their beliefs. It upholds the importance of access to health-care benefits, the protection of children, dignity in end of life choices, and, most importantly, the promotion of stable family units. Marriage equality legislation would be an obvious boon to same-sex couples and their children in each of these areas, yet the bishops are spending millions of dollars opposing it.

They also suggest that this is an issue of civil marriage, sanctioned by the state and not the church. The difference between civil marriage and sacramental or religious marriage is not often specified in polls asking about support for marriage equality, but it is an important distinction.

Catholics for Equality note that distinguishing between civil marriages, “like you get at city hall,” and marriages within the church made a significant difference in the percentage of Catholics who supported marriage equality in research conducted by PRRI. Without this clarification, that the question was only being asked about civil marriage, PRRI’s numbers were comparable to those seen in the New York Times/CBS News Poll, placing Catholic support for marriage equality at 43%. When the question specified civil marriage, however, support soared to 71%, representing nearly three quarters of those who were asked. The differences seen in support depending on how questions are phrased demonstrates that polling organizations must be careful to be as specific and clear as possible in order to get the most accurate numbers.

GLAAD commends Sister Gramick, Mr. DeBernardo, and all pro-LGBT Catholics for their continued support for marriage equality. We are also pleased to see acknowledgement in the media that a majority of Catholics support equality for LGBT people. The recent polls demonstrate in important, but not often reported disconnect between the position most often presented by representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the beliefs of the church’s followers.

http://www.glaad.org/blog/american-catholics-support-marriage-equality-despite-church-position

The DNC just outmaneuvered the RNC and now the Republicans can't claim some type of moral high ground because they were 'the only ones' who let Dolan give a benediction at their Convention.

[Zorra]

102. Owner of Prop 8 Website ProtectMarriage.com Admits to Molesting Boys

Owner of Prop 8 Website ProtectMarriage.com Admits to Molesting Boys

An anti-gay activist and former teacher and youth volunteer, Caleb Hesse, 52, who owns the website protectmarriage.com, detailed by conservativebabylon.com, which is a front used to collect donations for the "proposition 8 defense fund," admitted today to molesting young boys over a period of decades.

Proposition 8 was a ballot measure that sought to amend the California constitution to specifically say that marriage is only between a man and a woman.

[Skip Intro]

110. The leader of the KKK? What are you talking about?

Who the hell is the leader of the KKK?

What does he have in common with Cardinal Dolan?

Do you equate gays not being able to marry in their state of choice with being raped and/or whipped into submission?

wtf are you talking about?

[Pab Sungenis]

112. So it's okay for my party

to give a forum to someone who actively fights to strip me of my rights and human dignity? Nice to know.

Have a nice day.

[Skip Intro]

117. Don't put words in my mouth.

You equated the Cardinal guy with the leader of the KKK - but the KKK sought out people and terrorized, tortured and killed them.

Nothing of that nature is being done by this Cardinal as far as I can tell.

If I'm missing something let me know.

[progressoid]

132. Yes, you are missing something.

Let's try something slightly less hyperbolic. Let's say Robert Byrd was still around and had never really given up his Klan sympathies. Would we want him on the podium? Would we defend him even though he only has this one little problem?

The DNC specifically chose this Cardinal. One that actively opposes LGBT rights. Why should we support such a person? Should we pretend that he's not actually working against civil rights of our citizens?

[Skip Intro]

142. Let's try reality for a minute.

Being lynched is not the same as not being able to marry.

Nowhere near the same.

The Cardinal is not the same as the leader of the KKK, as the OP put it, because he does not do or support lynching people, as the KKK is known for.

Nowhere near the same.

Wrong speaker? Probably. On par with the KKK? No.

[progressoid]

160. As you said up thread "don't put words in my mouth"

I can't speak for Pab, but I didn't see where the OP stated that "being lynched is the same as not being able to marry". Seems to me it was putting forth the idea we shouldn't invite someone to our convention that is actively opposed to our party's ideals. The institution of the Catholic Church opposes contraception, abortion, gay rights, and harbors pedophiles. Why should we have one of their leaders "blessing" our event?

[Skip Intro]

163. *sigh*

The OP falsely compares the Cardinal to the "leader of KKK."

It isn't a valid comparison.

That was my point, and can't be stated more clearly.

The Cardinal is not at all anything like the "leader of the KKK."

You can try to defend the statement that this Cardinal is akin to the "leader of the KKK," and draw the same comparison and conclusion as the OP, with different words, but it yields the same result.

That's the thing about reality. No matter how many times you try to make a false statement true, in the end, it is still false.

I don't care to defend reality to you any further tonight.

Goodnight.

[progressoid]

167. *sigh indeed*

I agree. Comparing the Cardinal to the leader of the KKK isn't a valid comparison. I'm not defending that because I don't that is the point of the OP.

A lot of people think we should give the Cardinal a pass for whatever reason (maybe it's the hat). Using the KKK serves simply as shock value to get peoples attention. I wouldn't quietly sit by if Joe Lieberman gave the benediction either. That doesn't mean that Joe and the Cardinal and the KKK are the same. The only thing they have in common is that none of them should be at the podium of our convention.

Goodnight.

[hay rick]

111. Rick Warren all over again.

This time we don't have to wait until for the inauguration for the dissing of the LGBT community.

[tritsofme]

118. Except it is just one prayer. Get over it.

[Pab Sungenis]

120. It was just one prayer

with Donnie McClurkin.

Then it was just one prayer with Rick Warren.

Three times is not a random occurrence. It is a pattern.

And don't ever tell anyone to "get over" their fucking rights!

[tritsofme]

124. And there will be more. Maybe I shouldn't have said get over it. You should get used to it.

[Pab Sungenis]

127. We're already used to it

and that's the problem. It's a common occurrence and needs to stop.

And if you did not intend mockery with the "get over" remark I retract my comment.

[sabrina 1]

139. How about having someone who supports the Civil Rights of all Americans say 'just one prayer'

Why have one who doesn't?

[HockeyMom]

134. As a former Catholic and Catholc school graduate

of NYC, they can take Cardianl Dolan, and their Catholic anti-women, anti-contracptiion, anti-abortion, anti-divorce, anti-gays, RAPING and COVERUP of little boys, and SHOVE their Cardinal Dolan and the Pope, where the sun doesn't shine.

The only people I have any sympathy with are DU'ers. Maybe YOU can change them someday.

[99Forever]

136. Hell no.

He'll be cruising for boys backstage.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

151. Marriage according to the BIBLE is:

[MineralMan]

156. A bad decision.

Personally, I think religion should be removed altogether from politics, but I know that's not going to happen. Choosing Dolan was a bad decision, though, and for many reasons, including the one you name.

[MotherPetrie]

157. This hypocritical fucker will find a way to get in a dig at the Dems - mark my words.

[Raster]

159. of course he will. anyone that thinks Dolan will offer up just a "small blessing" is delusional

this is a religious person. This is their bread-and-butter. this is their schtick.
And currently the catholic schtick is sexist and homophobic.

Who would Jesus condemn, the rich man or the gay man?

[progress2k12nbynd]

168. Whatever gets PBO reelected...

damn the rest of us.

[stevenleser]

169. This is a completely unnecessary mistake that should be fixed immediately.

His invitation should be revoked.

[DonCoquixote]

170. I have butted heads with Pab a few times

But here, he is 100% right.

The Catholic church has been opnely supporting the GOP for a while, and not letting up one bit on it's bigotry. It might be one thing if this priest had bucked the vatican, like many in this nation are doing, but he is NOT.

As far as religious fogures go, when you have folks like Jesse Jackson, or ten thosuand other LIBERAL clergy, you do not need to have the bigots preach to lead your prayers, especially when you know that the Catholics are currently trying to pump wind into Ryan's sails.

And this is coming from someone that has had many headbanging sessions with Pab, where i think we got to the level of seeing each other as "honorable opponents" people who could at least put some conviction and actual research behind our arguments.

Sorry, Pab is right, and if Obama wants a liberal catholic, one that has criticized the Vatican, he could find a TON. But one could argue it is best not to even deal with the Catholics until they stop burnishing Ryan.

[Freddie Stubbs]

182. You seem to forget that Joe Biden is a Catholic

[Pab Sungenis]

190. No, I don't.

It's not that a Catholic Priest, or even a Catholic Cardinal, is delivering the prayer. It's that a vocal opponent of civil rights is delivering it.

[Kingofalldems]

204. Joe Biden is not part of the hierarchy

Nobody forgot anything.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

183. Are you seriously comparing the Catholic Church to the KKK?

If so, fuck you.

No, seriously.

FUCK YOU.

[Pab Sungenis]

189. No, I'm comparing

the current leadership of the Catholic Church to the KKK.

As a Catholic myself, I do not compare the Church itself (which comprises all believers) but only the people who are leading it today, particularly in the U.S.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

191. Well, I'm Catholic too.

And I too have serious problems with the Church leadership. From their counterproductive position on contraception to the policies of cover up of child abuse to their illogical refusal to entertain the possibility of women and married priests, they are a highly flawed bunch of guys who too often fall victim to groupthink.

But to compare a member of the heirarchy to a KKK leader, a grand dragon if you will, that essentially means that all of us run of the mill Catholics are essentially KKK members.

Not to mention that the KKK was and is a terrorist organization. The modern Catholic Church of today is not a terrorist organization. It is a religion. The modern church does not lynch people or burn crosses in people's yards. They may issue statements, statements which you or I may disagree with, but that's not the same as what the KKK does.

So I know the comparision you are making, and I still think it is highly offensive.

[OmahaBlueDog]

198. Really

I haven't seen Pope Benedict (for all of his many faults) organizing any lynchings lately.

I haven't seen any parish priests beating people to death.

I haven't seen the local Archbishop put on a mask and throw burning crosses on people's lawns to terrify them.

If you want to call Church leadership bigoted, fine. If you want to call them insensitive, fine. Wanna bring up sex abuse cover-ups; that's all good. Wanna call church leaders homophobic -- OK. Pissed off with their stand on birth control and abortion -- go for it!

But comparing the Catholic Church -- an organization that runs schools, hospitals, food pantries, thrift stores, and universities open for the benefit of Catholics and non-Catholics alike -- to a white supremacist terrorist organization is despicable.

[Dannyteague]

202. He wants Catholiv votes as well.

Catholics are a bigger voter pool than gays. Sometimes on politics you need it both ways.

[Pab Sungenis]

205. Then let him get a Catholic priest

who doesn't openly advocate stripping people of their civil rights.

[sabrina 1]

212. He will get the votes of Progressive Catholics, but may lose some of those votes by this

action. Those Catholics for whom this man speaks, will never, ever vote for a Democrat.

So whose votes is he hoping to get by inviting this man to the Convention? Do you know any Catholics who oppose Gay Rigths? Do you really think that this invitation will change their minds? The ONLY way this would get their votes would be IF they believed the Dem Party has now seen the light. Meaning, we do not want those votes, because if that were the case, the votes of every Catholic for whom this man does NOT speak, would be lost.

[Green_Lantern]

213. It isn't the same as the KKK by any means but

I'm not sure we should even have clergy praying at a political convention.

[HiPointDem]

214. the same arguments as during the inauguration. 'it's just one prayer' 'reaching across the aisle'

'appealing to christians' blah blah blah.

saddleback church preacher rick warren is tied to the kill the gays stuff going on in uganda.

horrible precedent which has now become the norm. and why? most americans don't support the goals of the fundies. reaching out or creating a new reality?

Warren holds conservative theological views[7] and holds traditional evangelical views on social issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and embryonic stem-cell research. Warren has called on churches worldwide to also focus their efforts on fighting poverty and disease, expanding educational opportunities for the marginalized, and caring for the environment. During the 2008 United States presidential election, Warren hosted the Civil Forum on The Presidency at his church with both presidential candidates, John McCain and Barack Obama. Obama later sparked controversy when he asked Warren to give the invocation at the presidential inauguration in January 2009.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Warren

MADDOW: The government of Uganda is considering passing a law to execute gay people. Execute as in by hanging a, quote, “serial offender” or an HIV-positive person who commits same sex act. If enacted, this law would also impose a three-year prison sentence on anyone who knows of a gay person in the country but doesn‘t report that gay person to the government within 24 hours.

Who is supporting and promoting this legislation? Well, one of the proponents is a minister named Pastor Martin Ssempa. He was a familiar face to American conservative Evangelicals, because Mr. Ssempa has been a frequent guest of Pastor Rick Warren at One Saddleback Church in California.

Do you remember Rick Warren? Him being selected to deliver the invocation at Barack Obama‘s inauguration was the little black cloud that crawled inside the silver lining that day for a lot of Americans who support gay rights.

Given with Rick Warren‘s deep involvement with Pastor Ssempa on matters including gay rights and AIDS issues in Uganda, “Newsweek” magazine asked Pastor Rick Warren his opinion of this proposed “kill the gays” law in Uganda.

Mr. Warren responded by distancing himself from Martin Ssempa, but also by refusing to condemn the proposal saying, quote, “It is not my personal calling as a pastor in America to comment or interfere in the political process of other nations.”

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-show-us-ties-ugandan-anti

fundie missionaries are all over the third world like ants, promoting conservative values, marketization, and generally acting as shock troops and spies for first world capital.

[Rex]

219. Funny how some have to spend their time worrying so much

about others they will never meet or have a discussion with. Dolan might want to ask why he cannot get married, instead of wasting time on a topic The Church has no right to talk about in the first place.