More information is coming out about the Phoenix cops and the shoplifting of a doll...

[Archae]

The cops were still out of control.

BUT...

It appears to be that the family was shoplifting, according to the store's surveillance video.

No doubt more will come out as time goes on.

Perhaps more about the family themselves, and the two cops.

[Shell_Seas]

1. I don't understand the point you are trying to make

[Archae]

2. This is one of those times no one may be in the right.

The family was shoplifting, and the cops over-reacted.

[Shell_Seas]

3. Wrong! You're justifying and victim blaming. Even if they did...

The police reaction was unwarranted and over the top. He threatened to shoot a pregnant woman holding a baby for petty theft.

[Archae]

4. I am *NOT* letting the cops off the hook, damn it!

As I said, those cops were out of control.

[uponit7771]

8. Then the shoplifting is irrelevant why bring it up?

[obamanut2012]

36. Yes, you are -- you literally gave them an excuse and "both sides" the situation

[Sherman A1]

9. It is not victim blaming

To state that more is coming out about the situation. The OP certainly included the point of the police overreacting.


If there is any overreaction here.......

[Captain Stern]

5. True, but it's not like the two 'wrongs' cancel each other out.

There are different degrees of being in the wrong.

Shoplifting is petty theft..a misdemeanor. On a 1-10 scale of 'wrongness', I'd put that at maybe a 2.

A cop pulling his gun on somebody, and straight-up threatening to murder them is off the scale.

[uponit7771]

7. Yet while holding a baby in their arms this is disgusting

[tblue37]

59. Did you see the part of the video when a cop violently yanks the 4-yr-old away from her mother?

That was a truly brutal yank on a small child's arm!

[Sherman A1]

11. The OP clearly stated that the police overreacted

He also said that more information is coming out. The scale of wrongness is for a court to decide and I’m sure it will.

[Captain Stern]

13. Yes. I know. I read it.

I didn't disagree with the OP.

Nor did I disagree with the post that I responded to. I even started out with the word 'True'.

I then added my opinion.

That is generally how conversations work.

[mr_lebowski]

32. But then you know all about bein' a low-down, double-dealin', back-stabbin'

larcenous perverted worm!

Don'tcha ... STERN?!?

(a joke about the fictional character Captain Stern, folks )

[Archae]

33. Hee hee!

I love that segment of "Heavy Metal."

[Sherman A1]

15. True

Do we know if the police believed there to be a weapon involved? Do we know if this was part of an organized retail theft operation or believed to be? Do we know what information the police were given by the person who summoned them?

Initial news reports are in many cases lacking the full story or are simply wrong. Until more comes out we really know just a fraction of the facts.

[Captain Stern]

18. We actually do know some of that.

In his report, the officer does say at one point that he was scared somebody might be hiding something or reaching for a weapon.

We also know that, at least according to the incident report, that there was no belief that these people were part of an organized theft ring. Or, if there was, the officer who pulled his gun, and wrote the report, was unaware of it. His report also indicates that he didn't know anything about what the folks at the Dollar Store told the police because he never went there. According to him, all that he knew was that the suspects had left in a red Hyundai Santa Fe.

We also know that no one has been charged with shoplifting.

We also know that the incident report was written weeks before the videos surfaced, and that, at best, the officer who wrote the report lied by omission.

We know all of that without having to rely on news reports.

[Sherman A1]

23. If the officer stated he believed there to be

A weapon, even if that later proved to not be the case or if he was lying in the report I suspect that little can be done unless it can be proven that he falsified the report. It still appears to be an overreaction, but the stated comment regarding a weapon changes the dynamic of the conversation.

[mr_lebowski]

39. Which pretty much means cops can say "I thought someone had a weapon"

To justify pretty much ANY F***ING THING they do.

Which we see happen OVER AND OVER AND OVER when it comes to PoC's.

Doesn't change the dynamic of the conversation AFAIC, cause they always say that when they get in trouble for drawing their own weapons. ALWAYS.

Not yelling at you Sherm, just pissed off generally.

[uponit7771]

43. THIS !!!!

[Sherman A1]

50. It can come down to just that

Put “I was in fear of my life” in the equation and it’s both a perfect CYA and hard to dispute.

[Voltaire2]

24. They all know exactly what they have to say

to justify any use of force up to and including murder.

As soon as the cop states that they were scared of a lethal situation they establish an almost ironclad legal defense.

[Merlot]

29. Cops always say they were "afraid"

In his report, the officer does say at one point that he was scared somebody might be hiding something or reaching for a weapon.

Notice that both of those instances, "somebody MIGHT be hiding something" or "MIGHT be reaching for a weapon" rely upon the cops subjective judgement about what MIGHT happen. There were no indicators that these things WOULD happen.

Cops are sure a scared bunch.

[obamanut2012]

38. They ALWAYS say there was a weapon, or they feared there was on

ALWAYS when they are violent and overreact.

[treestar]

53. Why is that not expected though ?

It is in the nature of the job to deal with people who are more likely to do such things.

[uponit7771]

6. That's irrelevant, even if the cops knew that there was still no reason to go that far

[cwydro]

20. I did read the man was shoplifting too, but it hardly warrants that response.

I haven’t been keeping up with the story, so I hadn’t heard the whole family was doing it.

[uponit7771]

44. They media is yellowing the story, there's no video of the shoplifting just cut up pieces of

... something that might look like the victims in this case.

There's NO WAY a prosecutor could make a case that the victims here were shoplifting based on the videos they've shown ... in one of them we don't know WHO the person is.

[obamanut2012]

35. Nope, shoplifting should NEVER have a reaction like that

Even if they WERE shoplifting, and even if they shoplifted a million bucks worth of merchandise, which they did.

If they had attacked and threaten the Dollar Store staff, than yes, but fuck this and anyone being cop violence apologists.

[LanternWaste]

45. What is the implicit relevance between the shoplifting and LEO behavior?

If it's simply another tired variation of "well, no one was in the right..." you've described 200,000 years of human existence. I'm certain there's one or two people on the planet who didn't already know that and are better people for having read it.

[uponit7771]

10. *** there is no video of the father shoplifting !!!*** it's the child who took a baby doll!!

Police department is full of s*** it's just a child who took the baby doll big freaking deal that does not mean pull a gun and threatened to kill a pregnant woman holding a freaking child

This is disgusting

and even if the father did take anything even if the mother took anything you don't pull a gun on a pregnant woman holding a freaking child

[Archae]

12. I agree, the cops over-reacted, but the store video shows the couple lied.

They told the media they paid for everything but the doll.

The store video shows them walking out WITHOUT paying.

Are they lying about anything else?

And why did they reject the apology from the police chief?

[uponit7771]

42. I don't see that in the video that I've seen, could you link to the video you've seen?

and yes they SHOULD reject the apology by the police chief, it's full of crap.

There were too many seasoned LEO's who backed up the officer who was pointing his weapon ... this isn't a loan officer going nuts

[uponit7771]

48. The video does ****NOT SHOW ANY SHOPLIFTING BY THE COUPLE **** It shows a chopped

... up video of people walking out of the store but not boosting anything from shelves, storing it on person and walking out of the store.

The video does NOT show elements of shoplifting by the couple

This is some bullshit by the PPD.

[LuckyCharms]

14. I agree that more will come out, but it is irrelevant.

A crime or crimes on the level of shoplifting do not rise anywhere close to justifying the actions of the police.

In my mind, that family would have had to do something violent (or perhaps, the threat of violence) to justify that reaction, so unless something of that nature is made known, what the family actually did is not relevant at all, in my opinion.

To say otherwise would in essence be an attempt to normalize that bizarre reaction from the police.

I am not directing this at you OP, because I think I understand the intent of your post, but I feel that any effort to distract or explain away the actions of the police is the wrong road to take.

[Sherman A1]

17. It isn't irrelevant

We do not know what information the officers were told about the situation prior to the encounter we saw in the video. It appears that police overreacted and that may very well be the case. It may also be otherwise.

[obamanut2012]

40. No, it is not revelant

Unless the family was violent in anyway to the store staff, shoplifting at the fucking DOLLAR STORE may be a crime, but is not a big deal.

These are not a high-level jewel thief ring.

[Sherman A1]

51. I suspect

That we will continue to disagree.

[StarfishSaver]

55. When some little white kid steals something in a suburban Target and I see a video of cops

following her parents home and threatening to blow their heads off like this in their driveway and people try to claim it's no big deal because the kid shoplifted, I might take your word for this.

In the meantime, just no.

[Sherman A1]

57. If the officer believed that a weapon was present

As I understand was stated in his report, the dynamics change considerably. The video shows one thing the reality or the perceived reality may be very different.

[StarfishSaver]

60. You know that's what they always say when they get caught brutalizing black people, right?

And they often get away with that because they know manY people are more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt for assuming that black people are more likely to be dangerous and pose a threat when they would never make the same assumption about white people in the same circumstances.

[Sherman A1]

62. Interesting

Sweeping generalization there.... “You know that’s what they always say.....”

Respond if you choose, but I believe this conversation is pretty much completed.

[Bettie]

64. The officer ALWAYS claims a belief

that a weapon was present. Always.

I suspect they are told in training that one should always state this just to cover their own butts.

[Sherman A1]

69. Are you sure or just making an

Assumption?

[Bettie]

72. When these stories come out

there are two things that happen.

1. Cop says "I thought he/she had a weapon" or "I feared for my life".

2. Victim is suddenly the worst person on the planet, deserving of being treated as they were (up to and including being killed) because....reasons.

Perhaps not 100% of the time, but often enough that it is extremely predictable.

As to whether they train them to do it...I don't know, but it sure seems like it.

[LuckyCharms]

75. That's why I mentioned the exception of violence, or the...

threat of violence, which would include the brandishing of a weapon or otherwise illegal possession of a weapon. I'll be interested to see what comes out. I have not been following this really closely, but I'm assuming that a lawyer would not touch this unless they had a case. I believe that they retained a lawyer, and have have sued?

[Sherman A1]

76. A lawsuit is fairly inexpensive to file

So I wouldn’t put too much stock in just that particular point. But as you say, it will be interesting to see what comes out.

[Shrike47]

78. IMO, the shoplifting would reduce the eventual damages as viewed by a jury but wouldn't excuse

the excessive force. Cops are too damned ready to pull a gun on people.

[irisblue]

16. So do you have a source?

I'd be very interested in seeing that.

[StarfishSaver]

19. You could have stopped at "the cops were out of control"

The rest is irrelevant.

[uponit7771]

46. THIS !!!!

[Tipperary]

21. Not doubting you, but is there a link?

I have not read anything about that so far.

Regardless, those cops were insane. They have no business being cops imo.

[Archae]

25. As I said, yes. The cops were out of control.

The store video showing the family shoplifting and then lying about it are here:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/phoenix-couple-viral-video-arrest-reject-police-chiefs/story?id=63766934

It's painfully obvious, too often here at DU, we have a view of people doing crimes as "Total innocents," even when they are bad as well.

This attitude has shown itself in a police shooting in Mount Pleasant, WI.

A punk with a long police record is being painted by his relatives as such a good boy, never did anything wrong, but those mean ol' cops shot and killed him.

AFTER he shot at them.

https://www.wisn.com/article/armed-18-year-old-fatally-shot-by-police-after-riding-bike-without-lights/27687683

So we have a family who by all appearances liked to shoplift together, they got caught and the cops went nuts acting like a bunch of thugs.

[HopeAgain]

30. Petty theives

Aren't paid by the public to protect us and keep the peace. The whole story is about cops acting like thugs. I don't see the families actions affecting this story at all.

[obamanut2012]

41. What does this have to do with someone in WI who shot at cops -- why are you comingling the events?

Did the Phoenix family shoot at the store staff or cops?

[uponit7771]

47. This is false, please stop spreading this bullcrap from the PPD. The video doesn't show ANYTHING but

... some people walking out of the store and the girl had a doll in her hand.

The video of the person kneeling down doesn't even show the face of the person !!

Please, lets not Trayvon Martin this shit

[Tipperary]

56. Yeah, I understand the point you were making.

I agree.

[bullwinkle428]

22. Is the source of this information nothing more than a "people are saying",

that happened to come from a shadowy right-wing online site?

Because around these parts, it's typical for posters to provide a somewhat legitimate and verifiable source. Hell, I got schooled the other night when I used the NY Post as a source about something involving Al D'Amato, when there were other sites that had the very same story about him.

[Archae]

26. ABC news, posted above.

[uponit7771]

49. YES !! The video shown by the PPD does not show any elements of shoplifting. Its chopped up and blur

... blurry and doesn't show any elements of shop lifting the couple could be charged on.

Unless there's another video what the PPD has put out is some bullshit ... screw them.

[Blue_Tires]

27. There's still going to be a lawsuit

and the cops DID admit to fudging their official report...

But that won't matter because the media will continually hammer the point that this family got what was coming to them and the mere fact that they were NOT shot should be sufficient compensation...

[Mariana]

65. Call it what it is, please. The LIED on their official report. nt.

[StarfishSaver]

70. "Fudging" an official report is a crime

And, unlike shoplifting a doll, it's a serious one.

[maxsolomon]

28. Propotional responses.

Its a fucking DOLLAR STORE. Bullets should never enter the picture.

BTW, they were interviewed on Amy Goodman this morning - didn't catch it, though.

[Initech]

31. Was Larry David involved in this one?

[obamanut2012]

34. Who cares

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. In other news, Freddie Gray was a career criminal who was arrested for possesion of an illegal knife

[JustAnotherGen]

52. I posted the link to the Police Report this past weekend

Why don't they have body cameras on?
How can we trust them?
Cameras in the store do not PROVE that they didn't demand a woman drop her baby on hot pavement.

Not you OP -but the Phoenix Police? Weak sauce.

[Bettie]

66. Isn't it amazing that when this stuff happens

the cops have oh so accidentally forgotten or turned off their body cameras? Or their cars are parked in such a way that the dash cams don't pick up any of it?

There are good cops, but the bad ones overshadow them, simply by getting away with awful behavior over and over. They don't generally face any consequences beyond a short time at a desk job or maybe a paid leave.

[Catherine Vincent]

54. Well, I guess we should be thankful...

Well, I guess we should be thankful they weren't shot in the face and murdered by a fake cop like that poor woman in Chicago.

[Grasswire2]

58. why is deadly force even threatened for shoplifting from a DOLLAR STORE?

It's not like the family used a weapon to facilitate the alleged theft.

Let's have some perspective here, officers!!

[StarfishSaver]

61. If this had been a white family in the suburbs, no one would have been making excuses for the cop

Last edited Wed Jun 19, 2019, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)

But then, excuses wouldn't have been necessary because the cop would have been fired the same day - or, more likely, it would never have happened in the first place.

[Caliman73]

67. More likely the second option.

The police would have approached the family calmly and discussed the "mistake" in a friendly manner. They would have returned the merchandise and all would have been finished.

The reaction and concern is not that we on DU think that the family is innocent, or the shoplifting is "just fine" the concern is the difference in the way that police react immediately to people of color. We see it over and over again.

Should there be consequences for shoplifting? Of course. No one is denying that. Should you have a gun pointed at your face and be told you are going to be killed? No.

[Bettie]

63. Ever notice that every time a cop

is filmed acting inappropriately, suddenly, there is this rush to ensure that people are told over and over that the victim wasn't so much a victim but rather someone who got what was coming to them?

So, now the line will be that the behavior was OK, because the family 'had it coming to them'.

[Tipperary]

71. Who said they "had it coming to them."

You have that in quotes, so I assume you are quoting someone.

Who?

[Bettie]

73. Punctuation typo

should have had 'words' to paraphrase.

There is generally some version of 'they had it coming to them'. As in they deserved it for 'x/y/z reason' with the assumption that cops are always right and people who aren't white are always wrong.

If you think that these cops were behaving properly, in this situation, well, I will never understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

[Tipperary]

79. I certainly do not think that.

I think they should be fired. I have not seen anyone here say anything like that.

[hunter]

68. Okay, that changes everything.... not.

[IcyPeas]

74. Here is the interview video from Democracy Now with Amy Goodman:

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/6/19/i_thought_we_were_all_going

An African-American family is suing the city of Phoenix, Arizona, after police held them at gunpoint because their 4-year-old daughter had allegedly taken a doll from a Family Dollar store. In a video that has since gone viral, officers point guns and yell at the family, and one officer even threatens to shoot the 4-year-old girl’s father, Dravon Ames, in the face. The girl’s mother, Iesha Harper, is heard saying she is unable to hold her hands up because she is holding a child and that she is pregnant. Phoenix’s mayor and police chief have both apologized for what happened, and criticized how the police officers handled the situation. Activists in Phoenix say this is just the latest incident in a police department plagued by issues of police violence and killings. Last year, the city had 44 police shootings, nearly double that of the previous year, and led the nation in police shootings among cities of its size. We speak with Dravon Ames and Iesha Harper, as well as a family spokesperson, Rev. Jarrett Maupin. On Monday, the couple filed a $10 million lawsuit against the city.

[riverwalker]

77. $1.00 pair of underwear and a $1.00 fake Barbie doll

Not exactly a felony. 🙄