Please stop implying Trump is gay as an insult.

[Ms. Toad]

There have been at least a dozen threads and/or posts in GD over the last two days implying Trump is performing oral sex on Putin.

You know darn well that you are not celebrating Trump owning his sexuality when you post pictures of Trump kneeling before Putin unbuckling his belt, or graphically describe Trump rimming Putin. You are using it as a put down. It doesn't work as a put-down unless you are also implying that being gay is a bad thing.

There are many ways to suggest that Trump's worship of Putin (and other dictators) is inappropriate - without suggesting that the reason it is inappropriate is related to a sexual relationship between them. I'm sure you have enough creativity to use something that does not use my life as a battering ram against Trump.

I'm sick to death of encountering this meme on DU - and of having to justify my outrage at, once again, being used as an insult - or worse - being told by people who are not LGBT that it can't possibly be an insult because they don't have a homophobic bone in their body. That attitude is no better than, "some of my best friends are gay." It is sad, when I consider it a good day if I avoid a 24-hour alert time-out for alerting on a homophobic post. It's been months since a jury actually hid any that I am aware of.

I may, or may not, respond to comments trashing my opinion here - but I fully expect them. A lot of LGBT people have left the site, and most of us just suffer in silence, since it is clear that most of DU just doesn't get it. Our lives are still being threatened - especially the lives of trans individuals. Our rights are threatened - we can still be fired for being gay in many states. We can still be denied spousal health insurance - even if we are married Just because marriage is now recognized does not mean everyone believes being gay is acceptable - and calling our politial enemies gay relies on the beliefs of many that I am less than human in order to be an effective insult. We should not be hesitant to call out homophobia on a liberal Democratic site. But many of us (including me) are.

I really don't know why I bother anymore.

[mr_lebowski]

1. Nobody thinks Trump is gay, and if we DID ... we wouldn't make these sorts of jokes ...

It's precisely because he's NOT ... that some don't have an issue with making the occasional joke along those lines.

I'm honestly sorry if it feels hurtful Ms. Toad and I get your point, but I really don't think the jokes are in 'the spirit' that you're perceiving them. I promise you it's not how I mean it if I take part in that sort of joke from time to time, like there's something wrong with being gay, or with same-sex sexual relations in general. I've ... uh ... taken part, so ...

As an aside I think a LOT of people, in the back of their mind, purposefully write in such a way here on DU that if right-wingers come to visit, they're going to be annoyed by what we're saying.

[Ms. Toad]

5. It doesn't matter whether you think he is gay or not

In fact - the fact that you don't think he is gay makes it even worse. You are implying a straight man is gay for no reason other than calling up the negative stereotypes associated with being gay.

It doesn't "feel" hurtful - it IS hurtful. Even if you don't believe there is anything wrong with being gay, calling Trump gay callso on those feelings that being gay is bad. It wouldn't be an insult if you were calling out how wonderful it is that Trump is gay..

There's no shame in participating, not realizing what you are doing is hurtful. The real harm comes when you attempt to justify it - and insist that it is not hurtful - especially when it is a member of the impacted community telling you it is. You do recognize the language, "I'm sorry if you were offended, but I didn't mean it that way" right? We say that pretty frequently here when Republican politicians make non-apologies. It means I'm right, and you (blacks, gays, women, etc.) are just overly sensitive.

DU needs to grow up and stop using me (and others like me) as a political insult.

[mr_lebowski]

9. I think you're perceiving it as insult about homosexual acts, when it's not meant in that spirit

Let's say, hypothetically, Trump WAS gay, but otherwise who he is now.

And lets say it was actually Natasha Putin in charge of Russia. And then lets say we joked about Gay Trump ... subserviently going down on her ... would jokes of this sort be inherently insulting to all heterosexuals?

[Ms. Toad]

26. being perceived as heterosexual is not stereotypically bad

It has not been used as an insult for decades to keep gay people in their place, in our closets, bashed half to death, raped, or dead.

So no, the same sort of joke would not be the same if Trump were displayed as sexually subservient to women. It would, however, be offensive for another reason - it uses the male macho stereotype to debase Trump as inferior to a woman.

[mr_lebowski]

30. If you begin with the basic assumption that your fellow DU'ers are, in fact, NOT homophobic ...

Would that not change the 'stereotypical' rationale for taking offense?

If the rest of here (as I certainly do) consider same-sex and hetero-sex relationships and acts to be 100% equivalent, as one would hope, then this more or less just becomes a joke about sex, doesn't it?

Or is just any joke pertaining to one person having sex with another person offensive by it's very nature?

I mean, if it's true that "it would, however, be offensive for another reason - it uses the male macho stereotype to debase Trump as inferior to a woman", AND it would surely be far WORSE to joke if the genders were reversed, if Trump were female (regardless of orientation) and Putin a male ... that would basically leave 0 possible jokes about 'Trump having sex' ... no matter his gender OR orientation ... as being non-offensive, wouldn't it?

I can see that argument I suppose. The world doesn't really need sex jokes.

I can also see the argument that this sort of joke is offensive to sex workers, since the joke is really about Trump being, in essence, a prostitute.

[Ms. Toad]

62. This is not a complicated concept

When you insult someone by calling them gay, or depicting them engaging in homsexual activity it is offensive. Period. It has NO place on a progressive discussion board.

Would you have the same reaction if a black individual said, Please stop depicting blacks eating watermelon? Would that image be OK on DU merely because we should assume our fellow DUers are not racist? The impact of the imagery on people of color does not change merely because we assume the person using it has good intentions.

As for sex workers - if they want to make a case for the point you are making, I would listen to them. That is not my experience. I don't have a basis for assessing whether that woudl be appropriate. Which is largely my point.

LGBT individuals have said - to the point that most of us have just given up - that depicting someone as gay to insult them is offensive. The response should be, "I'm sorry. I never thought if it that way becuase I don't know what it is like to have lived your experiece - to have suffered from the experience of having my life viewed as evil - to have lived through Stonewall, dozens of friends dying in the AIDS epidemic, the horrendous murder rate among transwomen, being kicked out of my family for being who I am, being fired for being who I am, having my child denied a relationship with her other parent because our marriage is not recognized, having a chronically ill child denied access to health care because only my spouse is employed.

These are the consequences of how society views us. I don't need to wander onto a progressive discussion board and be told that it is fantastic to depict Trump as gay because we are going too use society's condemnation ("Society considers the act of a hetero man performing sex acts on another man to be the ultimate debasement,&quot as an insult. I know that more personally than you can even imagine the impact of that horrible reality. I don't want to encounter my so-called-friends using it as an insult.

[mr_lebowski]

66. Okay MsToad. I don't want to argue with you anymore ...

I get what you're saying.

My only goal in this discussion was to hopefully make you feel less hurt, and I'm clearly not doing that, so ...

I pledge not to engage or encourage jokes of this sort moving forward ... even though I'm LGBT myself and still find such jokes at times amusing, I'm probably atypical in the community, and I've not been personally persecuted for it like some have, so ... I apologize for defending this sort of thing, honestly. I just ... if something's funny to me, it's funny, and I tend to not think too deeply about it, but I probably should, and you've helped my understand that.

I really just want everyone here to get along, like, more than anything. Honestly. That's all I hoped to accomplish in this discussion.

Plus I guess I sometimes just enjoy arguing on a philosophical and intellectual level with other intelligent, well-spoken folks.

Fair enough?

[Ms. Toad]

68. Thank you. n/t

[pangaia]

49. "I think you're perceiving it as insult about homosexual acts, when it's not meant in that spirit.."

Well them, in what spirit IS it meant?

[barbtries]

32. i was going to respond much like this.

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2019, 06:46 PM - Edit history (1)

it's to hurt trump. it's not to suggest that gay sex is wrong; it's to suggest that trump is just that much into putin that he would stop at nothing to please the man.

he's destroying the USA (with the full compliance and support of republicans) so why not?

I am obese. it's been pointed out that trump is getting more and more so. should i be hurt by that? does that constitute an insult to anyone who struggles with their weight? I suppose it could be taken that way, but I don't take it personally. I take it as another way to get under his skin. after all he is the one who publicly humiliated a beauty queen for putting on a few pounds.

personally i would love it if some cheeky reporter asked him about both. "It's been suggested that you and Vlad are engaged in a sexual relationship. Can you confirm that?" or "It's been widely reported that you have gained quite a bit of weight lately. Is there a medical reason for that?"

If trump or putin was a woman maybe the insult would be clearer and less hurtful to the OP, but that's not how it is.

ETA Per se is a Latin phrase, meaning "by itself, in itself, of itself".

[maddiemom]

55. Well said!

[obamanut2012]

76. OMFG

it's not to suggest that gay sex is wrong per se

But, it IS wrong sometimes. That si literally what per se means. So tell em, please, what factors/events/whatever make gay sex wrong?

[barbtries]

90. OMFG

i will edit my post as apparently i misused the term.

[cwydro]

36. You just proved paragraph 4 of Ms. Toad's post.

And here it is Pride weekend. Just another day on DU.

[obamanut2012]

75. It is not a "joke" -- that is her point

Jut stop. It is homophobic AF.

[mr_lebowski]

77. I respectfully disagree that this was anyone's intent in engaging in jocularity of this nature ...

While at the same time mentioning that I've already pledged below to MsToad to not take part in anything like it again. Good day

[tblue37]

2. You are right, of course, and yesterday was particularly bad. I was surprised at some

of the DU regulars who made such comments on a certain thread I saw last night.

[Ms. Toad]

8. Yup - it was bad,

and it is continuing this morning. There is a particularly vile thread this morning. The two worst posts have survived alerts (one mine, one not mine).

[tblue37]

22. Yuck! I just saw that one. nt

[Ms. Toad]

7. Wow.

That is precisely my point:

Society considers the act of a hetero man performing sex acts on another man to be the ultimate debasement

You are using out that expressly homophobic stereotype as an insult. Thank you for stating, even more clearly than I did, why it is offensive.

[mr_lebowski]

13. The 'hetero' part of the highlighted statement is not irrelevant ...

Nobody on DU thinks that LGBT people are debasing themselves with their same-sex relationships.

The 'joke', if you will, is not 'the gayness', it's 'the subservience'.

[cwydro]

18. Dude, stop digging.

Call him a lapdog, call him a poodle, call him a puppet. All are subservient.

We see you. Clearly.

[mr_lebowski]

24. Doh! You've got me pegged as the homophobe that I am ...

I mean, personally I'd think a bi guy who's intimate life with boys started in 5th grade wouldn't be homophobic, but ... you probably 'see more clearly' than I do.

Reality is I don't want MsToad to feel bad about other DU'ers joking around in a way that I don't think is meant in the way MsToad is perceiving it. That's what you should 'see', but whatever ... I really don't care, sister or brother

[cwydro]

35. Yeah, it's obvious you don't care.

Why not use another word as I suggested?

Aren’t you the same poster who bragged about how you swooned women into sleeping with you with your good looks? Yeah, gotcha.

[demmiblue]

43. Yeah, that PUA post was beyond creepy.

Imo, it was the creepiest thing in the Lounge since HopeHoops (and that dude who kept talking about his penis all the time).

[Tipperary]

44. Ha, I remember that too.

Bragging about how it was “part of the game” to maybe argue with the woman a bit when she refused...all in fun. Mind boggling.

[mr_lebowski]

47. I didn't say part of the game, nor did I say I argued with them, you clearly misunderstood my point

Which was that, as an adult, I feel bad about what my attitude was when I was younger. I thought I was doing 'what you do' as a young man, which was to IMPRESS a girl into sleeping w/you. Not ARGUE.

Are we clear?

[mr_lebowski]

45. Yup, that was more or less me ... I didn't say it was looks though, I said I charmed them ...

You wanna make it personal, go ahead ... to be clear, what I meant was, I don't care what YOU think.

I say what I'm saying to MsToad as your stereotypical bi guy, who is emotionally attracted to only women, but physically attracted to both genders ... which is the ABSOLUTE MOST DESPISED 'class' that one can possibly be in.

I'm the WORST OF THE FUCKING WORST, by societies standards. I'm worse than gay people. I'm considered slime.

Yet, I'm not offended by jokes about Trump blowing Putin.

BUT ANYWAYS, most importantly, I don't want us all at DU ... at loggerheads. I'm sorry that MsToad feels bad about the jokes, I don't want him/her to feel that way towards the rest of us ingrates. We're just joking around, man. It's not meant as an insult about homosexuality, it's really not.

That's really all I'm getting at. But feel free to proceed with your personal disparaging, like I said before ...

[cwydro]

46. Ms. Toad has told you why it's offensive. She's not the only one.

She’s the only one who hasn’t tired of speaking up about it, and I suspect she’s pretty damn tired.

Why is that not enough for you to stop? I love how you’re trying to turn yourself into a victim here.

I know people who use that tactic. Please just fucking stop.

[mr_lebowski]

50. I didn't say I wouldn't stop. I'm willing to stop if it's hurting people ...

I literally made ONE comment about how it was a funny joke that someone else made saying Trump's f'd up forehead was a result of Putin's belt buckle. I thought it was funny.

But even if I stop, people in general are likely to continue. And I don't want my LGBT brothers and sisters to feel like people who joke around in this way ... are insulting them. THAT'S pretty much it, that's my whole point. I'm dismayed when we're not getting along.

And I'm not saying I'm a victim at all, dunno where you get that?

Anyways, I'm done. I'll pledge to avoid joking in that nature in the future.

[obamanut2012]

78. IT IS NOT A FUNNY JOKE

It is a homophobic "joke." Just stop it. You have many LGBT+ people on this thread telling you to stop, you are offensive, it is offensive. You do not get to decide it is just a "joke." JFC you already said once it debases a man to do that to another man.

[mr_lebowski]

86. Guess what? THAT WASN'T MY F***ING QUOTE.

That was someone else (hence my ability to continue posting in the thread which you cannot do if you have a post removed).

I guess you missed the part where I said I'm bisexual myself, but whatever. You got it all reckoned, I'm just an asshole.

[LakeArenal]

81. Geez now your words are being mischaracterized.

Seems to be trending. Keep up the good fight Mr L.

[mr_lebowski]

91. Thanks Lake ... honestly I really do try to be something of a peace-keeper, I get bummed about

groups of people feeling hurt by other groups here on DU ... I was really just trying to mediate a bit, but it sadly went awry.

[LakeArenal]

92. Some won't accept apologies even after they demand them.

Luv ya Mr L.

[mr_lebowski]

94. Thx, back atcha Lake ...

Us MA Groupies keep it tight

[maddiemom]

31. Yes, it's the subservience. Gender is not the point.

However, if LGBT people are offended, just drop such references.

[cwydro]

37. And somehow "subservience" is associated with gay folks?

I’d like a couple of posters on this thread to meet up with Ms. Rapinoe, and let them straight splain this to her - see how that goes.

Or is it just gay men that are subservient? Please fill us ignorant gay folk in.

[maddiemom]

53. WHOA. OUCH!

Let me see if I have this straight (no pun intended). Only gay people give blow jobs.? Blow jobs are subservient. Therefore, only gay people are subservient...or...what? Would "kissing ass" be offensive to you as well, MS/MR Touchy/Touchy? The expressions pretty much meant the same to my (admittedly aging) generation. Both sexes of all sexual persuations in all combinations indulge in this activity unless unusually up-tight. The two individuals in question are both men so therefore it means...? Gays are being insulted (and also have the right to ASSUME the sexuality of any poster with whom they disagree)? Just calm down, "cwydro."

[cwydro]

54. Too bad you don't get it.

Just too bad.

[maddiemom]

57. Wow, that was quick!

Guess you're hovering around, spoiling for a fight (I just switched back to home and there you were). No,YOU don't "get it." But I doubt any professional educator could explain it to you (next insult, please). I'm outa here.

[Ms. Toad]

60. The cartoon uses homosexuality as an insult because that is (still)

perceived with disgust by far too many. It is precisely for that reason - and becuase it paints the giver of the blow job as in the subservient/effeminate - role (homophobia is deeply rooted in misogyby) that it is effective.

Have you ever seen Trump (or any other politician) illustrated or described in the same kind of sexual interaction with women to demonstrate subservience? It is used exclusively (or nearly exclusively) with Trump's relationship with men precisely BECAUSE it draws on homophobia for its insulting effect - and also why it not only smacks Trump, but other LGBT individuals in its wake.

[maddiemom]

73. "...not only smacks Trump, but OTHER LGBT individuals..."

So does that mean Trump IS gay? I'm really getting into this nit-picky stuff, and nobody has answered my question as to whether Trump kissing Putin's bare ass is an OK image. Could we just go with that so no one else is offended...as long as we make Putin's ass just average size. Or is this a particular fetish that I'm not familiar with, and some literally ass kissing enthusiast will get mad at me? I' m ashamed of myself not because I'm homophobic, but because I let myself get into this totally LUDICROUS argument. My original post was that I didn't see that image as a homophobic insult (I'm entitled to THINK that), but it should be dropped if it offended anyone. Suddenly I'm a clueless asshole, and I never even mentioned various of my own friends and family members' sexual preferences to avoid the "some of my best friends..." ridicule.

[cwydro]

84. Um, just a clue here dear.

It’s not a “preference.”

You’ve shown yourself.

[maddiemom]

108. Oh, I'm SO embarrassed that you caught me out.

Now let's start a whole NEW thread about use of the word "preference." Should we use...what? Proclivity? no? Would "natural inclination" be better? Preference is just the biggest giveaway of a homophobe, right? Couldn't be just a thoughtless choice of words because that would be a whole new circular argument. You win, Snowflake ( since you're less resilient, more prone to taking offense). I never realized that you might be very young. The use of the term "dear" in a condescending way does throw me off a bit on guessing age. OK, I'm BUSTED. This is so humiliating!

[Ms. Toad]

87. That was a typo.

As to your question about ass kissing. It's not my cup of tea - but it is not (to my knowlege) a suggestion of homosexual activity - that, and brown-nosing are similar suggestions of currying favor with the boss or someone with power over some aspect of your life, that are used pretty much universally, without suggesting a sexual relationship between the parties.

It's really not that hard - and not nit-picky at all. Don't suggest a sexual relationship between Trump and another man as a way of insulting him. And it is not ludicrous to ask that DU member respect that simple act of being respectful of DU members who are telling you that failing to do so is hurtful..

[maddiemom]

106. Oh, excuse me. A TYPO. That explains it.

Your first paragraph is spot on, and also does a good job of explaining of my feelings about the OTHER variations on the expression "suck up" or "suck one's...whatever" Did ANYONE UNDERSTAND my first post? This whole thread was nit-picky because NO ONE was implying a sexual relationship between Trump and Putin.

[Ms. Toad]

110. So a picture of Trump kneeling in front of Putin with Putin unbuckling his belt

and a graphic description of Trump rimming Putin's anus with his tongue are not implying a sexual relationship between the two?

Those are both expressly implying a sexual relationship between the two, and both were posted (one numerous times) within the 48 hoiurs before my initial post.

[maddiemom]

112. Maybe I saw a different graphic.(???)

Nonetheless, sex was NOT THE POINT. It was an allusion. Not in good taste, perhaps, but not worth the vitriol expressed, and not appropriate criticism of my original post, which suggested getting rid of it, if some found it hurtful. Your "typo" was not something I would have taken offense at, on its own, if not having to go on the defense myself (for virtually no better reason). 'Nuff said.

[Ms. Toad]

118. Sex was expressly what was suggested - and what was used because it was likely to get the strongest

gut reaction from Trump Supporters.

As several posters have admitted, they use that image expressly because they know how offensive being depicted as a subservient sex partner of Putin is to Trump - and that they use it expressly with the hope of offending Trump supporters lurking here. If images of Trump sexually servicing Putin are being used used because they get a rise out of Trump and his supporteers, they are expressly calling up homophobic sentiments associated with sex to make the point. You may perceive it as just an allusion, but many LGBT individuals experience the disgust those images were intended to create in Trump supporters as a weapon. That weapon is just as hurtful when flung by friend as it is when it is flung by an enemy. In some ways, it is worse when flung by friends .

As for the comment about my typo - I'm pretty sure that nothing I said was vitriolic.

[demmiblue]

12. Good lawd. n/t

[Blecht]

4. I stay away from taking part in anything that could be seen as offensive to LGBT

So I wouldn't start or share anything that depicts the orange baboon involved in a sex act with a man.

However, I don't see his fellating Putin as an attack on gay men -- I see it as a metaphor of him doing everything he can to please Putin.

But that's just me, and I do not want to tell you that you should feel as I do about this, Ms. Toad -- I just want you to understand that we don't all see this the same as you, and it's not because we are all homophobic.

[marylandblue]

6. I didn't recognize this as a problem, but thanks for letting us know.

I don't recall ever doing this myself, but I'll be mindful of it from now on.. I'm am also sorry that LGBTs don't feel comfortable here. That's wrong.

[NotASurfer]

10. You bother because it's the good fight

For people who don't get it, mentally transpose the posts into racial language. Trump responding to Putin's most bald-faced lies with "yes, massah" for example. In contemporary use, that is highly offensive. If you're comfortable throwing gender orientation as an insult, you should be just as comfortable using race, or religion, or ethnicity, or gender as an insult. And that's not DU

[mr_lebowski]

15. What if it was just 'yes, master'?

Because I think that's what jokes of this nature are implying. It's about him occupying a subservient position, in the generic sense.

[demmiblue]

11. K&R

[Caliman73]

14. Agreed.

I think people somehow believe the the insult is specifically directed ONLY to the target because the target would take offense at the association.

The problem with that thinking is that the insult RELIES on the association between the act/identity and something bad. When you mean to insult someone by saying they "throw like a girl" the insult to the target lies in the association between the target's self perception and the association to performing an activity like a girl. Doing something "like a girl" is operationally the insult. While the person making the insult may not harbor any contempt for "girls/women" the insult is still a problem because there is the implication that "throwing like a girl" is still bad.

You should certainly continue to bother. People need to understand that.

An insult that we use in my family these days especially when someone tells a lie or wants to do something dishonest is, "You are being a Trump". The insult is in the fact that Trump and his family are horrific lying asses. I have NO concerns about using that as an insult because Trump is and will always be BAD.

[TalenaGor]

16. I took it more as a 'blowing your boss to get ahead' thing

Cuz you know damn well who Trump's boss is....

[cwydro]

17. Thank you. And good luck.

DU apparently has plenty of homophobes.

Frequently they seem to intersect with those who think rape is haha, teehee funny.

Interesting.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Heterosexist homophobia.

You and a few others pretty much nailed the issue; it is using gay as a pejorative, but many fool themselves into thinking "the joke" is on the recipient (the pResident). Those defending it usually have the same pathetic excuses, including because they get their cock sucked or some such thing or because "some of their best friends/daddy/sister/hairdresser/guy they met in a Barnes and Noble are gay", that they get a "a pass" because they are down with the GLBT community. Frankly, it shows how they are NOT part of the community.

Given what I have seen in regards to comments about Buttigieg, I am not surprised. I am not surprised because homophobia is always a low-hanging fruit on which people enjoy a nibble (or feast).

I guess you and others, myself included, are just whining about that unicorn again.

[Ms. Toad]

64. You know - the simple solution to the "problem" of us whining about that unicorn

is to just give us our damn unicorn, by refraining from using our lives as an insult.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Exactly, but...

...that would require folks to stop straightsplanin' to us! I don't see many, including some in this thread, are going to be willing to acknowledge their heterosexual privilege, much less acquiesce to uppity GLTBQ folks.

[Ms. Toad]

70. Really? Color me shocked. n/t

[Snake Plissken]

20. It's pretty mindblowing that you think so little of gay men as to only assocate this to gay men

when Trump's blatant subservience and obedience to Putin is discussed

I suppose you agree with Ben Carson when he claims that people turn gay in prison too, as if it has anything to do with being gay.

[Ms. Toad]

28. It has nothing to do with what I think of gay men

It has to do with the "humor" that rely on society's stereotype - still reality for too many that - Society considers the act of a hetero man performing sex acts on another man to be the ultimate debasement

Ben Carson is an idiot - and suggesting peole turn gay in prison has nothing to do with using gay as an insult.

[Snake Plissken]

38. You're the only who is making this about gay people

Did you complain about heterosexuals being attack when multiple people were posting memes of Nancy Pelosi walking Trump around on a leash, or Trump kissing Nancy Pelosi's ass?

Of course not because it had nothing to do with Trump's sexuality then and nor does it now.

[Ms. Toad]

63. I don't complain when whites are being attacked

Because whites have not historically been an object of scorn. Same for heterosexuals. Heterosexual are not historically an object of scorn, so the concept of using heterosexual as an insult is ludicrous.

The imagery about Trump being gay plays on the scorn historically (and currently) heaped on LGBT individuals. DU should not be compounding it.

As for me being the only one - (1) read this thread - you will see that I am not and (2) as I noted - trash like this has created a hostile atmosphere on DU for LGBT individuals and many of us have left and finally (3) those of us who are still here are fatigued to the bone. We not only have to fight Trump et al's specific attacks on our community (in a way that is not experienced by white cis individuals) and then we have to beg DU to stop using us to insult Trump becuase when we dare, we do we are told to stop whining for our special pony, or that we are imagining things, etc.

[maddiemom]

33. No, only an African American would say........Whoops

I'll go away quietly.....(sarcasm).

[33taw]

21. I agree. Some posts have been disgusting.

[ripcord]

40. I haven't alerted on any posts on the DU

But as soon as I see one of these posts I won't be able to say that anymore.

[cp]

23. Thank you.

[rufus dog]

25. As a poster on one of the threads I will offer my viewpoint

Before you even responded, I updated my post to say I didn't find it humorous. It made me fucking angry.

And it made me angry because the President of the US was getting abused by the leader of Russia. Basically the leader of the free world was getting fucked in the head by Russia. Thus belt buckle marks on the forehead, thus absolutely no care for the partner, thus abuse and nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power.

That post had absolutely nothing to do with gay sex, it had absolutely nothing to do with sex, it had everything to do with being abused.

There is nothing mutually beneficial in the Putin/Trump relationship for the U.S. Any further implications were not inferred or intended.

[Ms. Toad]

27. Trump is worshiping dictators

not being raped by them. So please don't dig another hole by bringing rape into it.

The image is effective as a slam - as the deleted post in this thread suggested, because to be effective it depends on this homophobic reality, "Society considers the act of a hetero man performing sex acts on another man to be the ultimate debasement"

[rufus dog]

29. You are reading into my intent

Had Merkel been the abuser it would be different comment.

[Ms. Toad]

65. No. I am saying your intent is irrelevant.

If you use racist stereotypes to insult someone, is it be a valid defense to say to a black person who complains - but that's not what I meant (and then to continue to use that racist stereotype becuase when you use the stereotype you intend something entirely different than the stereotype itself)?

[Tipperary]

39. Wow.

No words here.

[demmiblue]

41. 2004... they are really coming out of the woodwork. n/t

[obamanut2012]

79. missed it -- guessing it was a good thing I did

[treestar]

42. I don't think it indicates anything about being gay, but submissiveness

I also hate that the words for sex indicate the same thing as being deceived. We're screwed. He's fucked. Making it the same as being taken advantage of, likely referring to the experience of women. Like they have been deceived every time. In Don Juan, the playwright used the word deceived - having sex with them without marrying them, which they thought he would do, and they got fooled and are tainted now.

Oral sex is the province of both straight and gay, so it really means that doing the sucking is apparently thought of as submissive. But yet like the deception of women, we don't need to see it that way.

It is tough to change the language used, but it can be done. Surely there are better ways to indicate that. The Orange Horror is Putin's puppet is a better one.

I don't think the DUers using it mean anything bad by it, it's just a first reaction due to usage in the language. Like the prison rape jokes, thoughtless.

[RobinA]

96. This Is Where

I come from on this. As a hetero woman, I could never figure out why men consider c***s***** derogatory. But let’s face it, there are many, many slurs used by men that depict sex or sex acts with men by anybody. Very curious, I’ve always thought.

[edhopper]

48. The insult isn't that he is Gay

the insult is that this preditor and rapist is sexually submissive to Putin.

That he is a weak, pathetic man.

[Thomas Hurt]

51. Stop implying he is gay because it is clear he is a hetero sexual predator.

[Ms. Toad]

67. I have never implied he is gay. n/t

[obamanut2012]

80. The whole point is she isn't

JFC can posters read the fucking OP before they attack Ms. Toad.

[BigDemVoter]

52. It depends. . .

As a gay man, don't see it as an insult to gay people but one to Pussy Grabber & Putin. .. WHY? Because for THEM, it would be an insult to be gay. . . Fuck them.

[Ms. Toad]

59. And as a gay man, you are free to say that.

There are LGBT folks who are offended by the use of queer or faggot - and others who aren't, or who are in certain circumstances. That doesn't mean straight folks are permitted to use those terms - and especially not to use them as an insult.

[obamanut2012]

82. I am LGBT+, and I find it disgustingly homophobic

[cwydro]

109. Me too.

Disgusting says it best.

Sad so many just don’t get it. Or don’t want to.

I suspect the latter.

[912gdm]

56. well said. n/t

[PatrickforO]

58. I hear you, but then how can we say that Trump has shown himself completely

submissive to Putin?

The colloquial term is that Putin has made Trump 'his bitch,' but surely someone will be offended by that.

A cartoon showing Trump on his knees in front of Putin will also surely offend someone.

The image I use is a puppet on a string. I'm sure that may offend someone, too.

But let me say a word against this hairsplitting - We have a guy in the White House who is immoral, corrupt, treasonous and every day threatens major harm to this nation and to the human species as a whole. Donald Trump, because of his office, and because of his behavior in that office, is the single greatest threat to humanity right now.

We have to focus with single minded intensity to remove this lout from office and then hold him accountable for the harm he has done.

By being offended with one another and having big long threads arguing these points, we are losing sight of the elephant in the room, which is Trump. We've got to get rid of him and turn this nation blue at all levels; make the Republican party as we know it now go the way of the Whigs, because they have clearly shown they care more about money and power than they do about us.

[Ms. Toad]

61. We are not losing sight of the elephant in the room

DU is literally driving away LGBT members.Society considers the act of a hetero man performing sex acts on another man to be the ultimate debasement

I'm happy to do something other than start a big long thread - but I have done literally everything else I can think of to make DU stop being a place I literally cringe to enter whenever Trump is in contact with Putin. I alert on offensive posts - but it has literally been months since any have been hidden (partly because many of us with enough lived experience to recognize homophobia when we see it - without explantion have left, so those left on the jury are - by and large - those oblivious to the reality that painting Trump as gay is offensive are those who populate the juries. I now consider it a good day if I don't get a 7-0 vote against me. I respond directly to people making the posts. I report the most offensive to Skinner, to appeal a rogue jury.

The reason there are big long threads is because DU continues to post homophobic trash - and - instead of saying, "Oops, sorry, I didn't realize" my comments are met with - you're so dumb (or so hypersensitive - i.e. this is hairsplitting) you don't understand it's not really an insult. The kind of nonsense DU would not accept for any other minority - except women. All that has to happen for the big long threads to disappear is for people to stop posting homophobic trash, or respond with a true apology when it is pointed out and then change their behavior. "I'm sorry if you were offended, but I thought it was funny" is not an apology - it is an insult.

There are plenty of ways to demostrate that Trump is subservient to Putin without suggesting it depends on a sexual relationship with him.

Puppet on a string (and it seems to me pretty disingenuous to suggest that would be insulting)
Ventriquilist's dummy
Worshiping Putin as a God
Reporting to his boss

None of those use gay as an insult

When blacks complain about racism on DU do you complain that they are losing sight of the elephant in the room?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

100. "How can we say that Trump has shown himself completely submissive to Putin?"

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2019, 09:09 AM - Edit history (1)

You just did, using words that are hurtful to exactly no one. Good job!

If you want to use a metaphor, you could say something along the lines of:

* he's Putin's puppet.
* he's Putin's pet.
* he's Putin's employee or servant.
* he's Putin's lackey.
* he's Putin's subject.
* he's Putin's waiter.
* he's Putin's sycophant.

Each of these provide rich fodder for editorial cartoonists as well, and none needs to be gendered or sexualized to make the point.

By being offended with one another and having big long threads arguing these points, we are losing sight of the elephant in the room,

Most people are able to hold more than one thought in their heads.

We've got to get rid of him and turn this nation blue at all levels;

We can do that without hurting some of our own selves.

[Ms. Toad]

105. Thank you. n/t

[Steelrolled]

71. Thank you for the post

I have always wondered about the posts you describe, like what is in the mind of the people writing them, and how they affect people reading them.

[John Fante]

72. The jokes are not only offensive to gay men, but straight women as well.

It basically says that to pleasure a man orally is to be subservient to him. You're his "bitch", to borrow prison jargon.

[obamanut2012]

85. Yup -- the root of homophobia is misogyny

[Ms. Toad]

89. Agreed. A lot of homophobia is a direct derivation of misogyny -

It goes something like - the worst thing that can happen to a "real man" is to be made into woman - a mere "receptacle" for a penis. It is no coincidence that much of the vitriol flung at gay men implicitly or explicitly feminizes them (Nancy boy, Sissy, Girly man, Nelly, Pansy), as a putting them in their place - as no better than women.

[RobinA]

98. Agreed

I’ve always felt that straight women could be insulted by this, but then I remember that the jaw is arguably the strongest muscle in the body and I just laugh. 55 lbs of pressure on the incisors. Who’s submissive now?

[obamanut2012]

74. THANK YOU, YES!

I also do not like it when it's said about a woman "getting on her knees," either, but the gay thing is even more insidious. So sick of all of it.

[guillaumeb]

83. It is crude.

I understand the need for humor to cope with stressful situations.

[Ms. Toad]

88. But whatever humor is needed should not use being gay as an insult.

In the same way it should not use racism, rape jokes, etc.

To work, the "joke" requires the societal perception that being gay/men engagin in sex acts with other men is demeaning and somethign to be scorned. DU should not be relying on that perception to insult Trump.

[MineralMan]

93. I agree!

[USALiberal]

95. Thank you! The DU also loves making fun of peoples appearances. Weight, etc. nt

[Ms. Toad]

103. I comment on those, too -

and regularly get flak for that, as well.

It's really not that hard a concept. I don't get why DU struggles with it so much.

[JohnnyLib2]

97. Thank you Ms. Toad. It's hurtful, insulting and unnecessary.

As a family counselor, I would hear parents use that kind of language around or with children. The demeaning language is passed on, sometimes way before a child understands it. Why not stop it?

[Raine]

99. I agree

some things posted here and not just the LGBT things others too are so ugly and can be really hurtful. Often I just skim DU because I get so worked up if I spend too long here at a time.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

101. K&R. Watching people trying to justify it, on Pride weekend, makes me sick.

[Ms. Toad]

102. I was watching the posting yesterday - on the 50th anniversary of Stonewall

Things haven't really changed that much, it seems.

[emmaverybo]

104. Well, you are right. NT

[ADX]

107. This thread has been a real eye-opener...

...Wow. Just...wow...

[Ms. Toad]

111. Because it gathered a number of people who believe using gay as an insult in one place

it is more concentrated in this thread. But it is not new. It is a daily occurrence, and it is getting worse. Partly because so many people have decided that anything goes as far as insulting Trump, and partly becuase most of us who are getting beaten up on a daily basis are just bone tired of asking people to stop.

[UniteFightBack]

113. It's about subservience. He is definitely not the DOM in this situation. nt

[maddiemom]

114. YES! YOU got it.

[VOX]

115. You'd better send a memo to Stephen Colbert, Bill Maher, Samantha Bee, etc.

I fully agree with your post. Having a gay brother, I myself do not engage in homophobic remarks.

But mainstream social humorists chafe at holding back with the gender/homophobic slams. Bee on Ivanka: “feckless cunt”; Colbert on Trump: “Putin’s cock holster”; Maher: too many to list.

As long as these high-profile comics continue to sling these epithets into the ears of millions, it’s difficult to prevent similar remarks occurring in the general public, especially when emotions run hot.

However, the DU community should be wise to this, and make an effort to do better. There are plenty of non-homophobic, non-racist, non-ageist slurs left to throw at the miserable dotard.

[Ms. Toad]

119. I am not a part of any community that includes Stephen Colbert, Bill Maher, Samantha Bee

But feel free to search for my user name and "cock holster." You'll probably find at least a dozen instances when I asked members of the community I am a part of to stop using that homophobic meme.

DU is not the general public, and the TOS expressly forbids homphobia.

Members are expected to respect diversity and demonstrate an appropriate level of sensitivity when discussing related topics. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of bigoted intolerance are not permitted.

So, regardless of what high-profile comics say, or remarks in/by the general public, on DU everyone has promised to refrain from engagig in homophobia.

[Bettie]

116. I rather see him as more of a Renfield type

eating bugs and doing his master's bidding in the most obsequious way possible.

He's a loser and not just a loser, but a loser who is so pathetic that he thinks he's something entirely different than the small, mean creature he is.

Using homosexual tropes or his weight is lazy.

Besides, he practically worships Putin, prostrates himself before him. Not as a partner, sexual or otherwise.

[VOX]

117. While we're "cleaning house," can we stop with the ageism here as well?

Biden, Bernie, Pelosi and even the asshole 45 have been carelessly put down on DU in terms of their age. As if time only passes on objects of scorn.

“Senile. Needs a diaper. Alzheimer’s. Old white men. Too old to think straight. Probably doesn’t remember what happened yesterday. Feed him soft, bland foods. At his age... Can’t even find his fucking limo. Bad candidate, he’ll be dead soon.”

On and on it goes, as if everyone here is 18, beautiful and running hot. I’m 70, and am a gigging musician. I swim daily and keep myself in shape, emotionally and physically. Happily married for 26 years. There’s no riotous humor to be found in my life REGARDING AGE.

Thank you.

[Ms. Toad]

120. I agree - but this is not a "cleaning house" thread.

It is a specific response to the vile, homophobic, crap that that verbally or graphically depicted Trump sexually servicing Trump. That imagery was the the subject of at least 2 threads (both left standing by juries) - and reposted within the 48 hours prior to starting this thread in at least a half dozen more. Each post that I convinced individuals to remove was rapidly replaced by two more. Quite a few DU members joined those threads to yuk it up, and to trash me for whining about my special unicorn.

It was last ditch plea to address a specific concern popping up in too many places at that moment for those of us impacted to effectively respond to.