Why on earth are we demonizing the Betsy Ross Flag?

[Chemisse]

Are we TRYING to reelect Trump?

It's like saying, yes, we really HAVE declared a war on Christmas.

So one man said it was offensive because there was slavery in existence under that flag? What else happened under that flag? The birth of our nation and the freedom from England - which happens to be what we are celebrating today.

Slavery was present throughout the early start of the nation. Should all our early history be banned in schools? Should antique stores be considered handlers of racist relics? Should we start banning coins and bills with early leaders' faces on them? Does any of this really matter now, when we have so many important issues to face?

The GOP will have a great time hitting us with this and it will be effective, because there is no solid basis for standing against the flag that has such a rich history and strong symbolism.

[madaboutharry]

1. The issue is that The Betsy Ross Flag has been adopted by awful people.

It has been appropriated by far right hate groups and neo-nazis.

[wasupaloopa]

6. They don't own our history. They can't appropriate historical

artifacts. Unless you let them that is.

[LAS14]

10. Let's not let them! nt

[madaboutharry]

12. I feel the same way that you do.

It shouldn't be this easy to steal symbols and change their meaning.

[Harker]

99. Like those damn German Nazis... n/t

[customerserviceguy]

145. It's only easy

if we surrender these symbols to them.

If they paraded around with a fifty-star flag, would we have to stop using that, too? I'm not going to let a handful of the worst racists redefine anything for me.

[caraher]

196. Yet it happens

We all know this now means something unsavory when a neighbor runs it up a flagpole

[NutmegYankee]

14. Exactly! nt

[TeamPooka]

15. Tell that to old time fans of the swastika. nt

[mr_lebowski]

27. It's an ancient symbol ... there in theory could be people who 'liked it before' ...

The Nazi's stole it, similar to what the RWNJ's are trying to do with the Ross flag, and now nobody can use it without being assumed a Nazi.

In other words, this sort of thing can happen where symbols are appropriated and lose any other meaning.

[Honeycombe8]

71. That's not the case with the American flag. All versions of it.

Our flag is a CURRENT symbol of the U.S. A prior version (not so long ago, in historical terms) is a legitimate symbol and means something to our history (more than slavery & other things going on).

I read that the swastika continues to be used in present day as symbols of various religions, like Hindu, as it was in ancient times.

The only way for RW groups to take control of our nation's flags is to let them.

[mr_lebowski]

78. I was simply clarifying one poster's 'meaning' to another poster ... who'd said 'huh?' (nt)

[dawg day]

43. There's a gracious old hotel near my town-- built around 1915--

With an iron railing around the big porch... swastikas-- and a sign explaining that it was constructed long before the Nazis took the symbol. There's a picture here-
https://www.flickr.com/photos/29445095@N05/9210956677

[Merlot]

51. There is an old park with a historic house and swastikas

here in SoCal. Same thing, signs explaining that the swastika was used by a tribe long before it became what it now is.

[Honeycombe8]

81. I read that swastikas are still used as symbols for various religions, dating to ancient times.

Nazis have not caused those religions to stop using their symbols.

[IronLionZion]

85. Hindus, Buddhists, and some Christian groups

have used it long before the Nazis. It's on lots of old sculptures and buildings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[sop]

116. It's found in many an ancient Navajo weavings

[Kali]

185. not really ancient

they probably didn't start weaving until the 17th century

[fishwax]

178. The town where I live has a few brick row houses built in 1920 that have them around the top

rather jarring the first time I noticed them

[Tipperary]

96. You are comparing our flag to the swastika?

Wow.

[TeamPooka]

100. Thanks for playing Straw Man. I'll miss you the most.

[Tipperary]

103. ...

[Honeycombe8]

68. That's what I think, too. The KKK also has used the regular American Flag.

So what? Do we give up everything, if a bad group uses it?

I think this move by Nike was ill advised.

[cwydro]

84. Kaepernick supposedly behind it.

Personally, I think it was a publicity stunt for Nike.

Kaepernick couldn’t even be bothered to vote last time.

[customerserviceguy]

146. There's only one thing bad about him not making his pay from football

I liked watching him get sacked. Yes, I'm a Seattle Seahawks fan, and that has a lot to do with it.

He's no Rosa Parks.

[Raven123]

20. Hmmm. Some might say the same thing about the current flag.

Not sure how best to deal with this. Hate groups can misappropriate just about anything. Seems like a slippery slope. Trump is the misappropriator in chief.

[Crazyleftie]

87. Absolutely correct....!!!!!!

Nike did the right thing....to prevent it being used by the wrong people as a symbol......I don't think anyone is "demonizing" it, but rather protecting it....

[onecaliberal]

2. It represents slavery, surely you jest.

[LAS14]

5. How does it represent slavery? nt

[DownriverDem]

56. Included few

if you want to look at it during it's time frame, only a few would be celebrating. Only white male landowners could vote. This left out a lot of people. However, I wish this flag thing had not come up. We never need to help the repubs.

[Honeycombe8]

74. The same can be said of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution....

anything that was written or made in the country until after the Civil Rights Act was passed.

The Betsy Ross flag is a symbol of the beginnings of the country. It is not celebrating slavery. When a country begins, and forever after, there are good and bad things about that country. The flag represents the country, warts and all. But in particular, the flag represents the ideals of the country, striving to adhere to certain principles. And what had been done to gain its independence and become its own country.

Nike made an error in removing the shoes, IMO.

[FBaggins]

9. Which of course is why it flew at Obama's inauguration

Duh

[dumbcat]

17. Obama hadn't figured that out yet!

Does that work?

[StarfishSaver]

25. There's a difference between flying it alongside other flags as part of a historical panoply

And displaying it by itself as some kind of symbol.

[Loki Liesmith]

26. Not to me it doesn't

[StarfishSaver]

31. To many of us, it's offensive, even if it's not to you

[MicaelS]

77. You do not get to make the rules..

For the rest of us. You do not like it, that is on you. But you will not speak for me.

[StarfishSaver]

79. Since I'm not trying to make any rules or speak for you, we're on the same page

I think.

[sheshe2]

160. Yet in return?

MicaelS (7,865 posts)

77. You do not get to make the rules..

For the rest of us. You do not like it, that is on you. But you will not speak for me.

Seems to me that you are making the rules for StarfishSaver.

[Honeycombe8]

83. Anything pertaining to the beginning of our country would be offensive to you.

The flag and the Declaration of Independence and many other things are celebrating and defining what the settlers had gone through to become independent. Has nothing to do with anything else.

There is no time in history in any country where something bad wasn't going on.

The flag does not celebrate slavery or represent it. It's our flag. Our country's flag. Nike made a bad call on this.

[Tipperary]

97. Excellent post Honeycombe!

Wish I could rec it.

[Chemisse]

105. Really good points! n/t

[RHMerriman]

126. Well said...

Nike's communications and marketing people are idiots.

[RobinA]

183. My Thought

is that Nike just didn't want to be involved. The way things just blow up out of all proportion nowadays, you've got a brand to protect, everybody is screaming this or that, common sense is taking a holiday... If I'm Nike I'm just saying, Who needs it, pull the product and let's move on.

[cwydro]

139. Yes.

Spot on.

[customerserviceguy]

151. Well stated

If it were a Confederate flag, I could see the point.

[emmaverybo]

155. Good post. Heartily agree. NT

[Judi Lynn]

186. I would imagine the genocide of millions of original inhabitants already living here was something

offensive to the soul of the human race, which went on and on and on until most of those people were tortured, murdered, or otherwise destroyed relentlessly, done in wicked, perverse ways to make the suffering unbearable, to break the spirit of those who were unlucky enough to survive.

That was something offensive which didn't happen to the ones who decided to steal the land, and the lives of the people already here, and then import people stolen from their only homes and loved ones and forced to make life prosperous and easy for those who could afford to pay someone to take them by force and transport them to their living grave, if they didn't die during the passage.

Not too much to get pompous about, not when someone actually takes the time to THINK, and realize.

[ripcord]

195. After what many European countries did to their colonies

We certainly can't allow those flags to be flown.

[FBaggins]

54. How ridiculous

What other racist symbols become acceptable on public display when paired with others?

[cwydro]

88. Thank you.

I hope some others on this thread see this.

[AncientGeezer]

18. Was President Obama endorsing slavery?

[GulfCoast66]

63. Betsy Ross was an abolitionist.

I doubt she sewed to to represent slavery.

[Throck]

137. I read that years ago too.

[Tipperary]

141. Well we cannot let silly facts get in the way of the

latest poutrage. Can we?

[GulfCoast66]

143. Not going there.

I do not know how people feel. But had that flag not become another us vs. them meme it would never come up on DU.

I personally think the right is trolling us. We support Kaepernick in his fight so we automatically support him no matter what. I get and respect the motivation.

But the result is we give another cherished symbol of our nation to the right.

Until now I never saw one post on DU criticizing the Betsy Ross flag. Even when President Obama used it.

[Tipperary]

148. Exactly.

All of a sudden it’s an issue. I think you may well be right about the trolling. And we are falling for it.

[pintobean]

57. Bullshit

Every American flag, from thirteen to fifty stars, is ours.

[Tipperary]

135. Bang on!

[Blue_true]

4. The flag has been adopted by some White supremacists. nt

[LAS14]

8. Well screw them. They can't have it!!! nt

[wasupaloopa]

11. Only if you give it to them.

[NutmegYankee]

13. So what. It belongs to every American.

Why are we ceding anything to the scum?

[TheFarseer]

45. Yes!

We give them the flag constantly and it’s so annoying they can pretend they are the patriotic party and we hate America. Stop giving them the flag and besides, it’s such a weird argument. Should I be pissed off about anything from before the Civil War, or just the flag?

[UniteFightBack]

7. I agree with you. nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. I have one on my flagpole.

I live in a 1700's house, I like the looks of it, and it's staying right there. Period.

[Codeine]

36. You live in a 1700s house?

That is extremely fucking cool.

[zackymilly]

59. You live in a 1700's house? Isn't that racist? n/t

[Tipperary]

102. Ha! Well played!

[SMC22307]

127. LOL Colin K going after a Quaker and abolitionist.

This is NOT a winner, Democratic Party.

[sarisataka]

19. I wonder what will we do

If some racist group chooses the Statue of Liberty as its symbol? Will we take the statue down?

[still_one]

30. +++++++++++++++++

[Jake Stern]

21. Because the current "In" thing for Dems to do is shun and hide anything that offends anyone

I'm sure if some white power group adopted an evergreen pine as their symbol DUers would be lining up to say how offensive it is to put up a Christmas Tree because some delicate snowflake without coping skills might see it and be triggered.

[StarfishSaver]

29. As one of those "anyones" who's offended, I'm glad that my party is sensitive to my concerns

I wish more members of the party were.

If you think it's wrong for some of us to be offended, why do you think it's fine to be offended when the party considers our views? Are we supposed to put up with whatever because it doesn't offend YOU while being esponsive to us somehow does offend you?

People are tired of being told to suck up these kinds of things because it might set off the Trump contingent. If they start to use this against us, then stand up and for and with US and shout them down and push them back. But don't tell us we have to put up with it because someone else might be offended by our taking offense.

[Jake Stern]

40. If you wish to be offended by clowns, flags, hand gestures or Adam Sandler that's your right

But you don't have the right to demand I or anyone else join you in that offense nor does it make you the 'expert' on what is or isn't offensive.

[StarfishSaver]

52. Wow

You must not realize what you sound like.

[Glorfindel]

55. JakeStern sounds like a rational human being.

As a gay man and as a Vietnam veteran, there are HUNDREDS of things I could choose to be offended by. Some silly flag is not one of them. What's next? Quit singing "The Star Spangled Banner" because that flag, too, flew during slavery times?

[StarfishSaver]

60. And that's your choice

It if something offended you, I would respect your feelings, not accuse you of overreacting and not behave as if your offense was somehow offensive to me, even if it didn't offend me personally or I didn't fully understand why it was offensive to you.

This entire thread and the attitudes expressed herein are disgusting and would fit right in some places I won't mention.

And I'll bet that most of the people here raging about how the poor Betsy Ross flag is being disrespected by those overly sensitive types never gave a thought to that flag until they thought some non-white people had a problem with it.

[MicaelS]

69. They are not disgusting, they are common sense..

To MOST of us. There seems to be a race by certain people to find something offensive at every turn. I will not participate in this, and will oppose it. I will not let this country be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Shit like this gives Democrats a bad name to the undecided.

[Tipperary]

98. Bull hockey. Most of us have known that flag since

childhood.

Poo getting deep around here.

[leftstreet]

115. +1

And I'll bet that most of the people here raging about how the poor Betsy Ross flag is being disrespected by those overly sensitive types never gave a thought to that flag until they thought some non-white people had a problem with it.

Sad, but probably true

[EffieBlack]

124. Apparently, this view is more widespread than I originally thought!

I just saw almost identical discussions on two right wing websites - including an “Uh Oh, Guess Who Had the Betsy Ross Flag at His Inauguration?” and “Betsy Ross was an Abolitionist” headlines.

So good to know that the Why Y’all Hating on Betsy Ross’ Flag? sentiment is so universally held!

[SMC22307]

150. Horseshit. As a native Pennsylvanian and someone who has...

visited the Betsy Ross House and has at least a basic understanding of our nation's history (atrocities and all), you'd bet wrong. You're going after a Quaker, FFS, a woman who lost two husbands to the American Revolution. I'm telling you, being perpetually aggrieved is not a winning strategy for the Democratic Party, and if we get stuck with Donald fucking Trump for five more years because people are bent out of shape over a flag, this country is done.

[StarfishSaver]

153. It sounds like you're much more bent out of shape over a flag than I am

I couldn't care less whether or not Nike puts the Betsy Ross flag on its shoe.

[SMC22307]

159. I'm bent out of shape over the idea of five more years of Donald Trump...

and stupid issues that might turn voters off toward the Democratic Party.

[StarfishSaver]

161. Anyone who would vote for Trump because Nike decided not to put the Betsy Ross flag on its shoes

probably wasn't going to vote for the Democratic nominee anyway.

And I venture to guess that if too many Democrats spend a lot of time carrying on about how offended they are that Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick - especially using the tone seeping through this thread - we'll drive away a lot more votes from the base than we'll gain from people who'll vote for Trump because Nike won't put Betsy Ross' flag on their shoes.

[SMC22307]

163. Voters take to the polls for sound reasons and stupid reasons...

and the malleable middle doesn't need much to be pushed toward what it perceives as the "strong" Republican Party v. the "perpetually aggrieved" Democratic Party. It's not just the Betsy Ross flag, it's a string of issues that Republicans are masters at using against us.

Hopefully "the base" is more loyal than you're making it out to be. I can't imagine sitting out an election because of arguments over a shoe.

[Jake Stern]

162. I understand the stated reason

That being said if you CHOOSE to be offended by a word/object/gesture it is your absolute right. What I find galling is the demand by self proclaimed “woke” progressives that I use YOUR level of offense as the benchmark for how I should approach that word/object/gesture.

Personally, I’m tired of trying to keep up with what symbol/word/ gesture is currently offensive because some right wing jackass used it on his webpage or said it on a podcast or flashed it during a photo op with Trump.

Oh and yes I know exactly how I sound - just like somebody who has grown weary of tiptoeing around this veritable minefield of what is and isn’t going to cause folks to be triggered. When folks complain about “PC culture run amok” this kind of shit is EXACTLY what they’re referring to.

[SouthernProgressive]

181. This is kind of funny in a way.

Those saying they aren't offended by it actually present their case as if they are more offended than you are. So strange. I agree with a lot of what you say. I respect how you view it. Not everyone has to view it that way but they don't need to slight your perception as it is based in historical context.

[Ms. Toad]

73. I haven't sung the star spangled banner since I was in middle school.

more than 5 decades ago. Too late for that to be "next."

[cwydro]

94. One could say the exact thing to you.

Disowning a flag that represented our country during our war for independence? Nope.

You know what I’m offended by? Kaepernick who claimed Hillary and the shitgibbon were the same.

Pfft.

[Crunchy Frog]

166. Sounds extremely reasonable to me.

Just because you're offended by something it does not obligate the rest of us to go along with it.

What can you possibly find wrong with that?

[cwydro]

91. See post 54.

Obama flew that flag at his inauguration.

Take it up with him.

[SMC22307]

140. As a flaming librul I've supported Colin K. 100 percent...

up until now. But going after a flag made by a Quaker and abolitionist is idiotic and a losing proposition for the Democratic Party. Put up with it or don't put up with it, but I don't think you're going to get much support on this one.

[Judi Lynn]

188. Finding ways to try to manipulate Democrats by telling them the right might mock them

for taking a moral position is the cheapest, most conspicuous form of trollery.

Thank you for your worthwhile comments.

[GulfCoast66]

22. Right! First bussing and now the first flag our a nation?

Sewn by an abolitionist?

Are we trying to lose?

[Red Mountain]

37. Neighbor flies it.....has for a couple of years

Obama and all that. It's a dog call to the past.......

When people knew their places.


He's an educated man. MD. Racist, I would guess/assume but educated enough to realize plausible deniability is better than a Confederate flag that would cost him money in his practice.



Anybody that flies that flag is making a statement. It's up to them to specify what it is.

[GulfCoast66]

39. You can say exactly the same about the American flag.

Mine’s out. After the rain.

So is a Trump supporting neighbor. His got stormed on.

They will appropriate neither from me.

[AncientGeezer]

49. President Obama flew it..his 2nd inauguration. What was his statement?

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. What is this all about? Who is complaining?

I guess I'm late to the party, again.

[EffieBlack]

32. Good Lord, what is happening around here?!

I thought I was on Democratic Underground but with all the “NO FORCED BUSING!” “She sure sounded angry and unhinged” and “I don’t give a shit if black people see this flag as racist, fly it anyway dammit” posts, I must have stumbled into a parallel universe...

[Hoyt]

62. It's been particularly weird since the debate.

[EffieBlack]

92. Yup

And we both know why.

But trying to pick a fight about the Betsy Ross flag? Isn’t it a little early in the game for that kind of foolishness?

Somebody skeered ...

[MicaelS]

76. So every time white supremacists appropriate..

Something we are bound to stop using it?

You do realize we are falling right into their trap, right?

They are doing a lot of this shit to poke us in the eye and get a reaction from us. They are quite clear on that.

[cwydro]

86. The flag that represented our nation during the revolutionary war is racist?

Unreal the stuff I read on here.

[RHMerriman]

152. Yeah, cuts both ways...

Nothing quite as self-defeating as doing one's enemies' work for them, but there's a long list of self-inflicted wounds from Dems at Dems - including those who should know better.

God help us if someone read the lyrics to the Battle Hymn of the Republic or the Battle Cry of Freedom...

]

[Inkfreak]

182. Boo. Hoo.

[Mike Nelson]

33. Ugh...

… this give FOX "News" something to fill time with... it drives moderates crazy and loses votes for us... meanwhile, the current President of the United States is a White Supremacist. If we can't talk about that, let's talk about health care.

[stillcool]

35. take it up with Nike..

it's them you want to fight with.

[StarfishSaver]

80. No, I don't think Nike is who they want to fight with

The people they want to fight with are right here.

[AncientGeezer]

123. President Obama doesn't want to fight with you..

[stillcool]

132. yeah...reminds me....

of something in the Mueller report about trolls amplifying stories to create wedges. I'm not clear on what this fight is about. I assume its highly offensive that Colin Kapernick had the gall to voice an opinion, about a flag from yester-year symbolizing American independence today. And worst of the worst, Nike listened to what he had to say, and agreed. There's got to be more to it, but what?

[Freethinker65]

38. Agree. We should be demonizing the supremacists, not the symbol (flag) they appropriated...but

But, I think it is important that people know supremacists are using it. (Pepe the frog, anyone?)

When it comes to a company putting it on their product, they needed to be informed. Nike, as big as they are, could have built a campaign around Nike taking our historic flag back from the fringe racists. Instead, they decided not to sell the currently produced shoes. Perhaps they can redesign the shoes with the flag and a positive message.

I used to get upset flying the current American flag because of all the right wing assholes draping themselves in it. Then I went to a protest rally and thought I'll be damned if I let "them" steal our country's flag to spread intolerance and hate. I actually bought and brought flags (made in the USA) to the protest along with my protest sign.

Unfortunately it is now often harder for me to be proud of this country and its flag, but I have not completely given up.

[GulfCoast66]

42. I get your point. And respect it. But some dumb assed frog drawn a few years ago,

Is not comparable to the first flag of our, admittedly imperfect nation.

Sewn by an abolitionist at that. Which is a point we should play up.

I’m not letting them have that.

[Freethinker65]

46. I agree with you. Do not let the racists get a hold of it.

If Nike is smart, they will bring it back but improve the marketing and message.

[GulfCoast66]

50. Maybe rainbow colored. That would drive them crazy!

Release it after(ok I’m confident) our women win the World Cup?

Totally hijacking the thread. But the wife and I are going to a watch party at a brewery. Actually considering wearing a rainbow button which this 53 year old southern white guy never thought he would do.

But I’m in Orlando and our team is called the Pride.

[Drahthaardogs]

47. So what? It was the original flag if this country

Just because a few knot heads do something stupid doesn't make it a racists symbol.

You know what else those type like to use as a symbol? Lifted Chevy trucks. That still doesn't mean my Silverado is an affront to minorities

[Freethinker65]

48. Agree. See post #46

[First Speaker]

41. I've had one of these flags since 1976, and am displaying it right now...

...and I--and my Mom--got one then, the Bicentennial Year, as a *reaction* to the lingering John Wayne-type jingoism that surrounded the 50-star flag. We felt, especially as CT Yankees descended from numerous Revolutionary veterans, that this was a more "civilized" form of patriotism. I feel that way still. So it stays waving on our patriotic holidays, and I suspect the Republic will survive...

[Historic NY]

44. I put up a 23 star one this morning....

the neighborhood must be talking.

How about educating people about the Betsy Ross? We conceded to the piss stain flag of the tea party, and now this.

[JAD]

53. African American Continental Soldiers fought under the Ross Flag!!!!!

Don't let the reich wing take our flag. 750 African American Continental Soldiers spent the winter of 1777-1778 at Valley Forge. One out of every 19 soldiers Washington's Army was African American. George Washington fought against more Southerners than he had in his army. There were no soldiers from Georgia or the Carolinas at Valley Forge. Crispus Attucks was shot in Boston which was called "The shot heard round the world." That pivotal moment sparked the Revolution of 1776. Colin Kapernick should make Nike put the number 750 under the Ross Flag or within the 13 stars on the sneakers which would represent the African American soldiers at Valley Forge.

[StarfishSaver]

109. African American slaves also fought under the Confederate flag. So what.

[Gore1FL]

58. The right co-ops national symbols and makes them toxic

See also: the Gadsden Flag.

[samir.g]

61. flag of slavery

[AncientGeezer]

125. Does President Obama endorse slavery?

[LiberalArkie]

64. There are 13 stars on the flag and 13 letters in "DonaldTrumpJr".

Makes as much sense as anything else

[rickford66]

65. Google the Flag Code

The Flag on a shoe ?

[Hoyt]

66. Flags can be misappropriated by racists, and become offensive.

Link to tweet

/photo/1

[Chemisse]

117. Now that we know the origins of all this, I think we should take it back.

Display the flag, but embed OUR Betsy Ross flag in liberal symbols.

[mwooldri]

142. But the KKK also have wrapped themselves in the 50 star flag too.

So what should we do? Hurry up and add a new state and ban the 50 state flag as "offensive"?

[Whiskeytide]

144. But there is a difference ...

... The confederate flag actually flew in relevance to preserving slavery - as the battle flag of an army fighting against the United States in a war over slavery. The Betsy Ross flag, by contrast, has significant historical value completely unrelated to slavery. In fact, it has NO connection to slavery at all (at least none I’m aware of) except that it existed at the time. White supremacists have just pulled it out of their asses as an adopted symbol, apparently. Much like poor Pepe the frog.

[Hoyt]

156. Look, if the people that it's meant to offend, thinks it's offensive, I do too.

Don’t care whether it SHOULD offend, if it’s “heritage,” etc.

Maybe the B Ross flag is pushing the edge, but I’d avoid offending people, when there’s doubt.

[jcmaine72]

67. No one is trying to reelect Trump. Good people are trying to remove the racist toxicity from our

culture.

We can start by not telling POC what they can and can't find offensive. The 45% (and shrinking, thank goodness) that elected a documented white supremacist and sexist have poisoned our national spring. It now needs to be filtered.

In addition, to consider the big picture, the future of this nation will look very different than it does today and certainly than it has in the past. It will be multiracial & hyper-diverse. They will reserve the right to remove any symbols from our predominantly white, sexist, and homophobic past that they choose. This isn't any different than what Americans in the past have done already. We pick and choose what we feel are the symbols that best represent who we are.

The question then becomes are we the same people we were in 1776, or 1850, or 1939? If not, than perhaps any symbols representing that past America are no longer appropriate, especially to those groups who were viciously and systematically oppressed during those periods. Again, it will be for them to decide.

[StarfishSaver]

75. Thank you

I can't believe this needs to be said. But thank you for saying it.

[jcmaine72]

112. You're welcome.

[leftstreet]

118. This

Nicely stated

[jcmaine72]

149. Thanks!

[AncientGeezer]

129. President Obama didn't find it offensive

[jcmaine72]

147. And that's wonderful.

But others apparently do.

There have also been Presidents in the past (Democratic ones included) who have also delivered speeches with the Confederate flag present. Does that mean we should be insensitive to those who now find that flag objectionable and inappropriate for the public space?

[AncientGeezer]

157. The minute Kaepernick said something..not before was there an "outrage".

Yeaa,,he got Nike to pull a sneaker and all the sudden our Nations 1st flag becomes a life long symbol of racism and oppression.

Guess we can't have copies of the Declaration or Constitution either

[RobinA]

184. You Can Be Sure

that racial toxicity will continue to bloom and grow if symbols that mean something to enough people are disappeared and/or attacked. Diversity means that everybody's symbol gets a space, not that a new bunch of people gets to walk all over the existing symbols.

[Judi Lynn]

189. Glad to see your post, thank you. n/t

[jcmaine72]

192. Thanks, Judi!

[yaesu]

70. so, the bottom line is, if white racist bastards decided to make a cute cat their symbol we will

need to stop showing our cute cat pics, that sucks.

[Crunchy Frog]

168. We'll have to murder all our cats, lest someone gets offended.

[jcmaine72]

169. That's quite a leap you made there.

Whatever...

[Crunchy Frog]

170. This thread is full of leaps.

Just joining in the general spirit.

[yaesu]

175. ooooooh nooooooo 😱😱😱

but seriously, I don't care about any symbol or flag, haven't flown a flag since the 70's unless you count the russian flag I fly on the 4th now, but anyway, these nutjobs should just be ignored, made fun of, to change our lives because they decide to do something sickening just doesn't make sense.

[forgotmylogin]

72. It's out of date when flown on its own.

Which I think is why it's adopted by some white supremacists, like they wanna go back there.

It's fine in a historical context, like at Obama's inauguration as a symbol of progress WITH the current and other historical flags. Or at a historic period home.

In other contexts I see how it can be like - imagine if the syrup company re-issued the previous kerchief-wearing version of Aunt Jemima art on its products in some markets because they thought it would sell better. Seeing it in a movie set in that era makes sense, in modern use without "look how it's changed" context, it doesn't.

[GulfCoast66]

82. Are we going to let those MFer's appropriate all our national symbols?

The don’t tread on me flag has a real place in American history. But we let that go because we did not understand what they were doing. So does the Betsy Ross flag.

They are trolling us. If at the next leftist rally the Betsy Ross flag was carried by our side the right would stop using it pronto. Don’t want to be confused as a democrat!

I’m aware that any old symbol of America is considered by some to be racist. Hell, there are some who consider the American flag racist. I understand that.

America was racist from the beginning. We all know that. But the men and women who fought under the Betsy Ross flag did not do so because they were racist. Hell, all white folks were. Tory and Rebel.

Under that Flag the first modern republic was won. That meant more than we understand today. It shook Europe. The idea that a nation could be successful without a God anointed king or queen.

Hell it brought on the French Revolution where for the first time a king was overthrown buy the people. Not a rival king.

I’m not giving that to the right.

[EffieBlack]

90. When was the last time you gave two shits about the Betsy Ross flag?

And why do you care whether Nike puts if on their shoes or not?

Of course, you’re free to get some Betsy Ross flag stickers and put them on your own sneakers or your car or in your window or anywhere else you want and no one is in any way threatening your right to let your Ross flag fly.

[GulfCoast66]

95. The Betsy Ross flag? Never gave it much thought.

Until this brouhaha when was the last time you thought of it?

Did you get indignant when it was flown at President Obama’s inauguration? Did anyone? Was DU abuzz with posts about such a racist symbol? Of course not.

Which is my point. Never thought much about the don’t tread on me flag either. It was part of our nations fight for independence. Then he right stole it for their racist means.

They are trolling us. Next it will be the Liberty Bell. We had slaves then. Or the Liberty Tree. You get my point.

If every time the right uses a much beloved national symbol we demonize it pretty soon they will own them all. And we will lose.

[StarfishSaver]

113. I'm not indignant about it now. I don't care one way or the other.

But some people do care and I respect their feelings. And I'm disgusted at seeing the comments on this board from people whose carrying on would fit right in on some other websites.

[EffieBlack]

120. The only people indignant here are the ones who suddenly fell in love with the Betsy Ross flag today

it’s a ridiculous argument and insulting to people who aren’t so quick to wrap themselves in flags of days gone by.

[GulfCoast66]

128. You and I agree quite a bit. And I could give a shit about that flag.

Well, not really. It a symbol of our fight for independence. As was the Don’t Tread On Me Flag. Never meant much from a social standpoint. But now it represents racism and nativism.

But my point is much larger than that or any flag. If every time the right embraces an American symbol, and we disown them, soon they will own all of them.

I think they are playing us.

You watch. Soon the hillbillies will be flying a Liberty Bell flag.

These symbols are not like the Southern Swastika. It always represented slavery.

It pissed me off that flag that flew at President Obama’s inauguration is now considered offensive. It wasn’t then and I think President Obama was pretty tuned into offensive images. Because we let the right set the narrative.

I get your point and respect it. But I think we are being played.

[EffieBlack]

130. But Democrats weren't behind Nike's decision to not put the flag on the shoes. That was a business

prompted by Colin Kaepernack. The Democrats - neither the base nor the leaders - had anything to do with it.

The first I saw any Democrats get involved was today when people swarmed this board to throw a fit about it as if the Betsy Ross flag was the most important thing on earth and Nike burst into their homes and ripped the flags from their cold, dead hands.

I call BS on the whole flag pop-up outrage. It doesn’t even come close to passing the smell test.

[GulfCoast66]

138. Oh. Got it.

I was speaking(typing more accurately) in a more general sense. Haven’t paid much attention to the whole Nike thing. I mean I know about it but until Mcconnel’s tweet did not think much about it

But I have been concerned with this since the right wing co-opted you don’t tread on me flag.

If the Peckerwoods want to fly the Confederate battle flag, and own it, more power to them.

But when they start cooperating symbols that used to represent all Americans and turn them into racist symbols it pisses me off.

If we continue letting them they will own all of them.

My families is from the racist rural south. The respectable people where I lived, or rather where my dad lived, were not in the Klan. The respectable people were only Concerned Citizen Counsels. But they quietly gave the Klan their marching orders. This is still going on today. After today’s tweet look for the racist to start using all cherished American symbols. We can not fall into that trap.

OK, maybe I’m too paranoid. But I don’t trust these motherfuckers at all.

[StarfishSaver]

93. Who has asked you to give up the right to buy sneakers with the Betsy Ross flag on them?

It's not one of the rights enshrined in the Constitution.

But if it's really that important to you, Amazon probably has some Betsy Ross flag decals you can buy and stick on your shoes.

[GulfCoast66]

101. Your looking past my point.

If every time the right uses a cherished national symbol we demonize it, soon they will own the all.

What if they start using the Liberty Bell, or the Liberty Tree. Hell, they already kind of got the Tea Party.

McConnell’s tweet today suggest they plan to do just that. Use all our national symbols to represent them. If the minute they use them we find a reason to demonize them, and that is the nature of symbols, we lose. They will own all our national symbols. And that would be very bad.

I can’t think of a single national symbol that without much mental gymnastics can’t be shown in a negative light.

Can you? Hell, even the constitution can be found wanting. But criticizing the constitution is no route to electoral victory.

[egduj]

136. You're the 2nd person that suggested the sticker thing...

Or were you the first?

[IronLionZion]

89. That's exactly why hate groups use symbols that mean something harmless to everyone else

It means history to normal folks, and it means a much whiter less diverse country to white supremacists.

Hate groups look for symbols like this to divide us and stir up controversy. They did this with the OK symbol and made it mean white power.

This is a difference in perception, and the white supremacists should be demonized, not the historical flag.

[StarfishSaver]

106. Some "normal folks" don't see it as "history"

You left out the main reason they do this: to inflict painful reminders on the people they really are trying to undermine as a means of trying to impose and maintain a badge of inferiority on us.

It's not just a spitting contest between white supremacists and your so-called "normal folks." There are some other people involved in this equation - and we're "normal," too.

[GulfCoast66]

154. Wow. Powerful post. This is where typing discussions,

Rather than talking about the gets tricky. Because we evolved for visual queues to mean as much as words.

Hopefully I can express this in a positive way.

I understand that symbols of the nations foundation have totally different meanings for some folks. Frankly, I’m surprised African Americans are as patriotic as white folks. Not to mention all the native Americans who continue to serve honorably in our armed forces. We’ve certainly given them no reason to do so.

So the meaning of many, if not most of our ‘beloved’ symbols of American History mean something totally different to a good percentage of the population. I understand and sympathize.

But our goal is electing democratic candidates. And the large majority of the electorate is not going to be swayed, or even consider the nuances of these symbols. How do we circle the square, if you get my meaning. If we come out opposed to these ‘All American’ symbols we will get killed at the polls. If we go all in on them, we risk offending.

I would be interested in you solution. Because the right is going to continue to attempt to co-opt these symbols. They got nothing left but fear.

I would love to talk this over a beer with you!

[IronLionZion]

173. I agree with you, my post was about DUers in this controversy

because you see lots of our seemingly well-intentioned DUers don't know why it's a problem

[DeminPennswoods]

104. Mostly because Kapernick is a Nike client

and he objected. I doubt Nike would've cared if he was a client of another shoe brand.

[Takket]

107. Do blacks commonly see the Ross flag as racist and a symbol of slavery?

If so, how many? Is this like a 90+% thing?

I had no idea anyone ever saw the Ross flag as pro-slavery.

[Major Nikon]

164. Most people, black, white, or whatever probably aren't aware of how it's been used

It’s not like the confederate battle flag where most people understand it’s been used for racist symbolism.

The point is Nazis are most certainly using it and people should be aware of it. The anger people are expressing shouldn’t be directed at those who are shining a light on this, but rather the Nazis who are appropriating it.

[zackymilly]

174. What's up with Snickers bar in the pic? I like Snickers bars! n/t

[Major Nikon]

176. The Klan was putting candy in bags along with their flyer

[AlexSFCA]

108. I agree that we should stay out of it

also if we don’t want to see trump reelected, we really should not be comparing ice roundups to nazi germany. ice is trying to enforce the law and deport people who are present in the country illegally (overstayed visas or otherwise). Nazi Germany was detaining citizens and would not let them leave easily.
It’s one thing to criticize his child separation policy and conditions in the detention centers for asylum seekers but we should not bundle it with entirely separate issue of ice trying to enforce existing laws. Especially when we want to be seen as party of law and order against lawless and corrupt gop. We cannot be the party that supports illegal immigration. Since immigration reform failed to pass, the law of the land is deportation of those who illegally reside in our country whether we like it or not.

[StarfishSaver]

110. Who is "we"?

[AlexSFCA]

111. democrats

[StarfishSaver]

114. Democrats should stay out of whether Nike should put the Betsy Ross decal on its sneakers?

When were Democrats in it? Until this thread full of "Give me the Betsy Ross Flag or death" screeds, I haven't seen Democrats weigh in on this at all.

[DeminPennswoods]

121. Nobody on this thread is saying that at all

and I think you understand that.

[StarfishSaver]

131. That's exactly what was said and what I was responding to

"I agree that we should stay out of it"

"Who is 'we'?"

"Democrats"

[demosincebirth]

119. Yes, there there was slavery, segragation and much other crap that shouln't have been, but how long

ago? let me see... hmmm, can't remember. So, the framers of the Constitution were all slave holders - so that must mean they were all evil and no good?

[spin]

158. Not all the framers of the Constitution were slave owners. ...

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, about 25 owned slaves. Many of the framers harbored moral qualms about slavery. Some, including Benjamin Franklin (a former slaveholder) and Alexander Hamilton (who was born in a slave colony in the British West Indies) became members of anti-slavery societies.
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/content/historical-context-constitution-and-slavery

[demosincebirth]

167. I hope you know that I was generalizing.

[spin]

171. I have to admit that I wasn't sure. ...

Slavery was legal in the British colonies at the time of the revolution. Many in the north were opposed to slavery while the Constitution was being considered but it was one of those issues that couldn’t be resolved at that time if the Founders were to ever agree on a Constitution. Imagine the battles and the debates if we were to have a new constitutional convention today.

The Major Debates at the Constitutional Convention

*snip***

Stopping the Slave Trade

A deep disagreement arose over slavery. The economy of many of the Southern states depended almost entirely on agricultural products produced by slaves. To protect their economy, the Southern states insisted on two proposals. One was to ban Congress from taxing exports (to protect their agricultural exports). The second proposal was to forbid Congress from banning the importation of slaves. (In fact, the word “slave” was never used in the Constitution. The proposal was written to prohibit Congress from interfering with the importation “of such persons” as the states “shall think proper to admit.”)

When the convention received the draft containing these proposals, another heated debate erupted. Opponents of the ban on exports objected on economic grounds. One delegate said that denying the power to tax exports would take away from the government “half of the regulation of trade.” Another pointed out that taxing exports could become important “when America should become a manufacturing country.”

Those opposed to slavery brought up issues of morality. Luther Martin of Maryland said that forbidding Congress from banning the importation of slaves was “inconsistent with the principles of the revolution and dishonorable to the American character.” Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania said that slavery was a “nefarious institution” and a “curse of heaven on the states where it prevailed.” George Mason of Virginia spoke at length about the horrors of slavery and criticized slave owners, who he called “petty tyrants,” and the slave traders who, he said, “from a lust of gain embarked on this nefarious traffic.”

Ultimately, the delegates who strongly opposed slavery realized that pressing against it would make it impossible for the states to come together. They worked out a compromise with the Southern states. They agreed that Congress could not tax exports and that no law could be passed to ban the slave trade until 1808. And in a final concession to the South, the delegates approved a fugitive slave clause. It required that any person “held to Service of Labour in one State” who escapes into another state “shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.” (The requirement to return fugitive slaves was eliminated when the 13th Amendment abolished slavery.)
https://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-25-2-the-major-debates-at-the-constitutional-convention.html

[MarvinGardens]

133. Who is "we"?

I rec'ed your post because I agree that we should not give up on our national symbols simply because the right wing tries to appropriate them. They think they appropriated the Gadsen flag, but I'm thinking of putting one on my car next to a left wing sticker, because fuck them, they can't have it. It wasn't long ago that liberals used that flag too

https://web.archive.org/web/20140327181258/http://www.bartcopnation.com/

That being said, who is the "we" who are dissing the Betsy Ross flag? Are Democratic candidates doing so?

[Chemisse]

179. I got the impression that Dems were being mocked for being 'PC'

over the Betsy Ross flag criticism. There were several sources for this that dded up to my 'impression', including this DU thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142337272

and Morning Joe's rant:

https://deadline.com/2019/07/joe-scarborough-tweetstorm-nike-donald-trump-woke-democrats-1202641342/

Upon closer look, neither of them show actually Dems criticizing the historic flag - only Nike - but we sure are getting the blame if Joe's rant is any indication.

At any rate, your point is well taken.

[Mme. Defarge]

134. I wish I needed to buy a new pair of running shoes

so that I could boycott Nike. The position they have taken is ignorant and pandering and utterly obnoxious. Nike is dead to me.

Happy Independence Day to everyone else.

[spin]

165. The Betsy Ross flag was created in 1777 during the American Revolution.

Therefore slavery was legal before the revolution in the British ruled colonies. It would make more sense to boycott the British Union Jack for the fact slavery existed at the time of our revolution.

Slavery in the United States
A brief history

When Europeans first colonized the North American continent, the land was vast, the work was harsh, and there was a severe shortage of labor. White bond servants, paying their passage across the ocean from Europe through indentured labor, eased but did not solve the problem. Tensions between settlers and former indentured servants increased the pressure to find a new labor source. Early in the seventeenth century, a Dutch ship loaded with African slaves introduced a solution—and yet paradoxically a new problem—to the New World. Slaves proved to be economical on large farms where labor-intensive cash crops, such as tobacco, sugar and rice, could be grown.

By the end of the American Revolution, slavery became largely unprofitable in the North and was slowly dying out. Even in the South the institution was becoming less useful to farmers as tobacco prices fluctuated and began to drop. Due to the decline of the tobacco market in the 1760s and 1770s many farmers switched from producing tobacco to wheat, which required less labor leading to surplus of slaves. However, in 1793 northerner Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin; this device made it possible for textile mills to use the type of cotton most easily grown in the lower South. The invention of the cotton gin brought about a robust internal slave trade. As the lower South became more established in cotton production the region required more slave labor, which they received from upper South slaveowners looking to offload their surplus of slaves. In 1808, the United States banned the international slave trade (the importation of slaves), which only increased the demand for domestically traded slaves. In the upper South the most profitable cash crop was not was not an agricultural product but the sale of human lives. Although some southerners owned no slaves at all, by 1860 the South’s “peculiar institution” was inextricably tied to the region’s economy and society.
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/slavery-united-states?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5uv-t_Wc4wIVdP_jBx2FSwkyEAAYASAAEgLsrPD_BwE

The Brits outlawed slavery in most colonies in1833.

Slavery Abolition Act
UNITED KINGDOM [1834]
WRITTEN BY: Natasha L. Henry

Slavery Abolition Act, (1833), in British history, act of Parliament that abolished slavery in most British colonies, freeing more than 800,000 enslaved Africans in the Caribbean and South Africa as well as a small number in Canada. It received Royal Assent on August 28, 1833, and took effect on August 1, 1834.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Slavery-Abolition-Act

[xxqqqzme]

172. I have a 'tea stained'

'Betsy Ross' house flag that I fly every year on the 4th of July. I have always called it the Colony Flag because of the 13 stars.

[RelativelyJones]

177. The move make Nike look like idiots and Kaepernick couldn't even bother to vote last time. I respect

him for his stand, but that doesn't mean his judgement is golden.

[Judi Lynn]

190. What's the point of trying to mock Kaepernick by trying to drag out his voting performance?

Is he 3/5 a human being or less for not voting?

I didn't vote for years and I feel particularly attracted to studying people who want to assassinate the character of someone who didn't vote frequently enough. Had he voted every time there was an election, we all know certain kinds of people would immediately look for some other reason to attack him.

[Dr. Strange]

197. The criticism isn't for not voting.

It's for thinking that Hillary was a criminal and no different than Trump. Kaepernick's part of the problem.

[StarfishSaver]

180. Excellent point made by Fishwax in another thread:

Nike created a shoe. Some people let them know that their shoe would likely be really popular with white supremacist groups. They decided to drop it. BFD. I don't get it.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212246848

This really has less to do with some people being offended than Nike making a business decision not to allow it's merchandise to be misappropriated by white supremacists. Pretty simple and non-controversial (at least it should be)

[Judi Lynn]

187. I would prefer not form my life around not offending the sadistic, degenerate fascists among us.

Celebrating "our" freedom doesn't mean celebrating our freedom to enslave or terrorize others.

[Sunsky]

191. Black folks should just shut up.

This message has been rampant these past few days on DU. Well heck no, we will not be silenced. It seems as if the Republicans have succeeded at divided us. If you cannot empathize with us, if you cannot listen to our plight. Then DO NOT expect us to carry you during an election. Do not count on the black vote.

You don't have to be personally affected by something, to try and understand it. This is where the divide, even amongst us African Americans is taking shape. Some of my fellow black Americans feel as if I cannot understand their plight as Caribbean born American. However I would always tell them, our history may have diverged but has a similar beginning. This is the attack the Republicans (and some of us) are now using against Kamala Harris.
We should learn from each other and not try to belittle the others experience. Don't embrace ignorance.

Yes we will hand the election to Trump, if we keep dividing the Democratic electorate. If we let some feel as if their voices are not important.

[Polybius]

193. I don't demonize it

In fact we never should have changed our original 13 star flag. Adding more stars every time we added a state was the dumbest thing imaginable.

[Iggo]

194. You got a mouse in your pocket?

I'm not demonizing a flag. Are you?

I'm defending a company's right to rethink its decision to sell a certain style of shoes based on new information.