We can't understand Trumpenstein's base without understanding toxic masculinity.

[ariadne0614]

“Some of the racist, sexist, and homophobic vitriol spewed at Trump rallies is performative, spewed by men who did not believe it, or at least with that intensity, but were afraid their masculinity would be questioned if they did not pose as an angry, hateful Trump supporter, who doesn’t care about your feelings. Many of Trump’s supporters engaged in the same kind of pissing contest as internet trolls, where the point was not actually to advance an idea, but to prove how tough you personally are through a specific demonstration of emotional disregard and potential, and occasionally actual, violence.”

“To put this another way, there are members of Trump’s base, especially men, who truly don’t believe in him, but feel obligated to attend his rallies, shout his slogans, and even vote for him to be real men for their friends and family. This is not to absolve them of responsibility, but to define a relationship with toxic masculinity in our search for a way out of it.”

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-chronic-illness-killing-generations-of-men/

[Brawndo]

1. In other words, they're sheep. Hopefully they're like lemmings too

[ariadne0614]

4. This book is the perfect gift for Trumpsters.

Wouldn’t it be grand if they formed self-help book clubs and discussion groups? Hope springs eternal.

[Brawndo]

8. It would be grand, but they'd have to accept that something was wrong first

That's the tricky part. I was raised in that toxic masculinity but I always knew it was wrong. I think it's a choice of whether to nurture one's empathy or to strangle it.

[CrispyQ]

10. They share that trait with the Con - never admit that you're wrong.

In fact they often double down. Stupidly, but they do it.

[Brawndo]

13. It's the sure sign of a deluded mental midget, never at fault for anything.

Few things stop me from listening faster than a display of that kind of hubris.

[Duppers]

33. True.

I think my winger brother is a victim of this, at least he keeps his compassion for all animals.
It's so sad, this desperate need to belong to a group, to fit into a stereotype, especially for "some parts" of the country.

[Baltimike]

27. They're DITTO HEADS. nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. There's a lot of truth in this.

I've often thought that Trump rallies are a sort of perverse performance art, a testosterone-fueled circus for which Trump is just the ringleader, the guy with the whip getting the caged beasts riled up for the audience. They all want us to know they are real men, not like those weak, sensitive, emasculated liberals who care about feelings and nature and all that girly crap. Ever noticed how the right insults liberals by trying to feminize them? The worst thing for a real man to be called is feminine. Toxic masculinity contains a whole lot of misogyny, since being a man has to mean you're not a woman - a weak, inferior creature. And all that chest-beating at Trump rallies is just a bunch of sad guys trying to prove they're not women or people who are like women.

[ariadne0614]

5. While simultaneously seething over their rejection by most women.

That’s the crazy part.

[Nay]

12. Yeah, they absolutely despise women, and then wonder why women avoid them. Their hate

emanates from them like a big stink and women can smell it a mile away.

And men wonder why women believe men are in it only for sex. There are whole gobs of men who don't like women, but they sure like sex, and that two-faced attitude toward women can be pretty obvious.

[raccoon]

31. "There are a lot of men out there who don't like women.

There are a lot of men out there who don’t like women.They are married, and they’ve got kids, but they don’t like women.” A coworker told me this back in the 80s. He was right.

[RKP5637]

6. Yep, agree 1,000%, have thought the same. "perverse performance art, a testosterone-fueled circus"

[shanti]

15. But

unfortunately, there are plenty of women at those rallies too. I just don't understand that.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. Women often buy into the whole toxic masculinity thing.

Maybe it's a kind of Stockholm syndrome, but some women, possibly those who are insecure about their attractiveness to men and who think that men will like them more if they respond positively to their "masculine" behavior, seem to take on those same characteristics and cheer for the guy who is the most "manly."

[ariadne0614]

28. I think you're on to something here.

It could also be a conditioned survival response, reinforced by patriarchal policies designed to make it hard to survive economically and socially without a man. I’m old enough to remember how men’s paychecks were connected to their need to support a family. No such consideration was given to single mothers.

[treestar]

7. I've noticed that debating

deplorables. Sometimes it seems they are trying to prove they are tough, not really the point at hand. There are women who do it, too.

[ooky]

9. That's peer pressure, producing the same toxic masculinity that turns people into gun humpers.

"My friends have guns so I must go out and buy guns too. I don't hunt, but I need guns to be tough and macho, like them. And, of course, it will shape my politics by turning me into a Republican 'second amendment' sheep."

[CrispyQ]

11. Sadly, a lot of (mostly white) women have bought into it, too.

I'm still stunned that 53% of white women voted for this POS.

[RKP5637]

23. Same here. I just don't get it. I would think they would be avoiding this guy like the plague! n/t

[MicaelS]

64. I am not stunned.

I have spoken to a lot of white women, and most of them said the worst boss they had was a woman. So the idea of having a woman as President is anathema to them. No matter her politics.

[yardwork]

91. But why do they think their female bosses were worse than male bosses?

In every situation I've known of where this is said, I've found that employees are much harsher in their assessment of female bosses and co-workers. During the decades I've been working, I've seen women held to much higher standards than their male counterparts. Women are criticized for things that men are forgiven, over and over.

Trump v Hillary Clinton is a good example. Look at all the disgraceful behavior he is forgiven - sexual harassment, fraudulent businesses, not paying his debts, on and on... while Hillary was raked over the coals for using a private email server. Then, Trump gets elected and the media ignores his use of an unsecured private cell phone for official business, his staff's use of private email accounts (not just private servers, private accounts in which they hide official federal business).

The double standard is shocking. I've seen it over and over.

[ariadne0614]

66. If men would reject it, I think those women would gladly follow them out of the pit.

[customerserviceguy]

14. Ever since the Gillette campaign

I've been uncomfortable with this idea.

We avoid the terms, "illegal alien" and "radical Islamic terrorist" because we don't want to offend people, but the term "toxic masculinity" just trips off people's tongues like it's poetry around here.

[ariadne0614]

29. Here's the difference.

Labeling someone an “illegal alien” or “Islamic terrorist” is a verbal attack on an individual who represents the concept of “other.” In contrast, “toxic masculinity” is more like the diagnosis of an illness that threatens our efforts to “form a more perfect union,” not to mention the survival of our species. If you read the entire article and/or book, you might lose some of your discomfort. It’s not a personal attack, it’s about the system.

[emmaverybo]

30. It is offensive to me and divisive. There is no parallel term for violent, cruel, inhumane, callous

women or any efforts I see put forth among liberals to explain women’s support for Trump except by excusing it as their being societally induced to seek male approval or being brainwashed by
their husbands.

[ariadne0614]

36. You're kidding, right?

No derogatory terms for women? Let’s start with Eve, the genesis of the idea that women are to blame for the downfall of humanity. We can continue forward with about two millennia of examples to Hillary.

[emmaverybo]

37. Not among liberals, not one that is considered politically correct. NT

[rzemanfl]

59. I have to wash socks. BBL n/t

[customerserviceguy]

45. Nobody

believes the Adam and Eve claptrap anymore. Even most religious people know it was nothing more than an allegory. Yes, it was used for centuries to keep women down, but nobody uses that type of rationalization any more, at least not anybody who would vote Democratic these days.

[ariadne0614]

67. Like overt racism, it went underground.

The absurdity of the Eve story didn’t end the basic principle that women’s influence must be kept under control. It just went into covert mode. Now that overt racism has reared its ugly head again, it’s only a matter of time before the fundamentalists resume the ancient holy war against women. Oh, wait. . .

[customerserviceguy]

69. So

we can never be completely free of the mistakes of the past, they just go underground? There's a message of hope!

[customerserviceguy]

43. Thank you

I suggest we drop it, before we get Trump re-elected with it.

[ariadne0614]

72. Yes, and let's bury the lively discussions about our nation's racist history too.

No sense dealing with such unpleasantness. Maybe we’ll get around to it in another 200 years. In the meantime, we’ll just let the effects of unfettered toxic masculinity go unchallenged and see where that gets us.

[customerserviceguy]

73. No one's trying to bury anything

I just think that "toxic masculinity" belongs on the same ash heap with all of the other group-blame concepts out there. Maybe you think that you'll catch more flies with vinegar than with honey.

[ariadne0614]

74. "The Man They Wanted Me to Be: Toxic Masculinity and a Crisis of Our Own Making"

The author is Jared Yates Sexton. Maybe you’d like to present your case to him, and all the other men who are finally grappling with the subject. Your assumption that this is about group-blame is erroneous. We’re talking about a cultural disease. It’s more like talking about alcoholism or other forms of addiction. I hope that helps.

[customerserviceguy]

76. I don't feel

like looking up the author of some book you read in a college class. And most men don't want to be seen or treated like they're diseased.

[ariadne0614]

83. I didn't read it in a college class. It was just published.

The only men I see or treat like they’re afflicted with toxic masculinity are the one’s who exhibit all the symptoms, while clinging to the belief that there’s nothing wrong. Mostly I have compassion, because we’re all in this together.

[customerserviceguy]

84. Thanks

that's good to know. I didn't get that sense while I was reading some of your replies.

And I don't disagree with a lot of your points, I just question severely the use of a broad-brush label as part of the solution to the problem. Look where the use of the term "deplorables" got us. And now they wear it like a badge of honor, and actively try to live down to it.

[meadowlander]

94. Because two of those things are people and one of them is a social construct.

Nobody is saying "toxic men".

They're saying "society's expectations for the way men should behave is toxic and harmful for them." But shorter.

[LuckyCharms]

17. I've always believed this to be true.

You see it all the time around where I live.

Progressive people around here don't mouth off very much. They tend to keep quiet about their political views while in mixed company.

Trumpers are the opposite: " snowflakes", "go find your safe space", back in our day someone would have kicked your ass for that", etc etc. I've actually seen male members of my extended family, who I never see in person, just online, state that women are "vessels" for an embryo, and therefore, the embryo is a separate life and pregnant women have no right to terminate an embryo.

These people are backward fucks, and they have big mouths...until you give their shit right back to them. The thing is...these people are REALLY easy to toy with, and it's really easy to embarrass them.

[RKP5637]

24. And we seemingly have a lot of backward fucks in the USA. I figured Trump would be out on his ear

when people learned what he was made of, but yet many embraced him ... which really makes me wonder about a lot of people in the US ... by what motivates them. I don't see how women can support this guy. He despises them and makes a mockery of them ... feeling he owns them. A total WTF. And the ignorance is appalling. The US is getting like a grade school playground with the GOP in charge, but even the playground was way better.

[DBoon]

26. Their politics are a form of agression imposing dominance on others

Reasoned discussion is a sign of weakness - you assert the "truth" forcefully

[Buckeyeblue]

18. I'm not sure I agree

To me, the Trump people are middle to lower class white people (men and women) who believe that they are being discriminated against by policies (mostly imagined) that give minorities any type of advantage over them. These people take anecdotal stories (often without knowing the whole story) and apply it to the big picture. But they don't think of themselves as racist. But they do need to blame other people for their short comings. Trump was the first mainstream politician to address this group with very specific language. And they responded. While he hasn't (and can't) make their lives better, just being on their side is enough. That's why his support will stay around the 38-42% range.

In that 38-42% range are also the Evangelicals (or New Christians as I like to refer to them). They support Trump because he hates women's rights and gays, the two big evils. He doesn't live the life of Jesus but they don't either. In fact if Jesus came back as the middle eastern man from the Bible, he would be renounced as a fake and rejected. The New Christians have created a religion tailored to support their refined bigotry.

[RKP5637]

25. Yep, exactly what I think too. I live in a neighborhood that is fairly nice, houses and all, but I

told someone the other day I really live in a trashy neighborhood because of the obnoxious tRump supporters. Some of them can have some money and a nice home, but underneath they are bigoted trash. ... I suspect some of them are bigoted evangelist trash. ... and I think all that you said applies to them too.

[SharonAnn]

53. I live in a neighborhood full of educated and affluent, racist, bigoted trash.

[RKP5637]

56. Yep, wealth and education often make no difference. n/t

[ariadne0614]

32. "They support Trump because he hates women's rights and gays, the two big evils."

I’m not so sure you don’t agree after all. What sort of “masculinity” hates women and gays?

[Buckeyeblue]

47. But the point of the post is these people don't agree with Trump

But feel like they have to go along with what he says for fear of having their masculinity questioned. My position is that they absolutely believe what he is saying. All of it. Some for different reasons as I was trying to point out.

I think one of the early mistakes made with Trump is that he doesn't believe what he says. I think he and his followers believe it 100%. And it's not about masculinity. It's about hate.

[ariadne0614]

51. What's the underlying cause of their hate?

[Buckeyeblue]

58. 2 things

1. They think non-white groups are being given advantages that they don't have. Essentially, they think there is white discrimination. This is keeping them and their children from getting what they "deserve".

2. Religion. They hate women's rights, gay rights, most civil rights in general.

[RKP5637]

57. tRump is a genius at being a con artist. He says whatever to get the vote. Any believers thinking

tRump is like them ... they are damn fools, they are being used for their stupidness, gullibility, bigotry and racism. He wants their vote and knows what buttons to push.

[Buckeyeblue]

60. I think he believes most of it

The stuff he says about coal is bunk. But the stuff he says about immigration is hate from his heart. I used to think it was an end to a means but not any more. He is the evil that he represents.

[RKP5637]

62. Yep, I agree ... I think there is a core of pure hatred and evilness about him toward immigration.

I detest the guy, I see him as some diabolic evil creature.

[maxrandb]

22. And 52% of white women suffer from the same toxic masculinity

They are the kind that blame themselves when their husbands or boyfriends split their lip. They are the kind that see it as the highest compliment if some rich and powerful man grabs them by the "hoo-haa".

Disgusting!

[ariadne0614]

34. Yes, a disgusting number of white women still support the patriarchy.

It’s all they’ve ever known, they were conditioned from birth to accept it, and their majority will continue to shrink. I promise.

[gulliver]

35. "Toxic masculinity" is a sexist phrase and should not be used.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

38. What would you call it, then? It's a thing, to be sure.

I'm not sure how it's sexist and would welcome an explanation.

[gulliver]

39. There's nothing wrong with masculinity any more than there is femininity.

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2019, 08:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Are there "toxic" levels of these "emotional, stylistic" dimensions? Yeah, I guess so. They are both good things in the right amounts. It's hard to coin a phrase that would not be abused for either. We could say that someone is "excessively" masculine or feminine, but that implies a judgment that can be anywhere from accurate to rude-but-accurate to rude-but-inaccurate to outright sexist. We just don't need to go there, imo.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. "Excessive" masculinity would be undefinable.

Are you "excessively" masculine if your hobbies consist entirely of hunting, monster truck rallies, lifting weights and watching football, and you refuse to attend the ballet? Or are you just a guy who genuinely likes things that are typically preferred by men? Toxic masculinity is something else altogether. It's fake masculinity; it's an unhealthy definition of what a man is supposed to be and do that emphasizes aggression, misogyny and a lack of empathy. It's toxic because it is harmful to men; it sucks them into a false supposition of what they are supposed to be and stunts their ability to be whole humans.

[ariadne0614]

46. +1

<3 <3 <3

[rzemanfl]

61. Very well said, although monster trucks may well be toxic in their own right. n/t

[gulliver]

78. Toxic masculinity is also undefinable. Maybe "false" masculinity is closer.

And sure, there are seriously negative behaviors and attitudes that are associated primarily with men. But that doesn't mean that those behaviors are a property (toxicity) of the masculine style of behavior (which is an excellent thing). It's a question of balance, of course, as always.

I have informed you that I find the phrase "toxic masculinity" sexist. I don't speak for all men, but some men I have encountered find that phrase "sexist" and marginalizing. The phrase seems fairly clearly to center on an identifiable characteristic most closely associated with men. You may disagree.

Despite the fact that you may want to point to an understandable definition that you think I should accept, you don't seem to have considered that the mere association of the idea of toxicity with a perfectly excellent thing (masculinity) is at best rude, at worst sexist. We need to be polite. That's all.

[ariadne0614]

40. Okay, here's the deal.

I’ll stop using “toxic masculinity” the very minute you eradicate all forms of misogyny, war, rape, plunder, pillage, homophobia, and assaults on Mother Nature from the face of the planet. Ready, set, . . .

[customerserviceguy]

44. Wow, I didn't realize

that I was personally responsible for all those things. OK, I'll slink quietly away to my man cave and think about that.

[ariadne0614]

49. Oh, never mind.

For a minute there, it seemed like you were taking it personally. It’s okay. You can come out of your man cave now.

[customerserviceguy]

52. Well, you come here out of the blue

and try to stir shit. I'm just giving you your space to rant.

And your comments were directed at me personally, not at all of society, or all males in our society.

[ariadne0614]

77. Out of the blue? How so?

What you call “ranting” and trying “to stir up shit,” I call advocating for a position. It’s true that my replies to your comments were directed at your comments, but I’m pretty sure they were about the system, and not about individuals within the system. Anyway, if you felt personally attacked by me, I apologize.

[customerserviceguy]

79. Your post total

is pretty low, and a good percentage of them are on this thread. Usually, for the first thousand posts or so, folks try to get along here before they start a really good rant.

I've known Trumpster types for years, even before the Orange Menace got into politics. They're insecure, they're not toxic warriors out to drive us back to the Stone Age. He plays on their fears, just like Republicons have for most of my entire life. Well, I suppose Eisenhower didn't try that, but Nixon did, and every Rethug after him. Trump is just really, really good at it, that's why he surprised us in 2016, we didn't think that fear could motivate people to vote for someone so incredibly awful.

It's going to take building bridges instead of erecting walls between Americans to get this country back on the right track. Thank you for your apology, I perceive that as just such a bridge.

[rzemanfl]

81. Someone who posted to this thread joined DU in 2005 and has

2,110 some posts, all in the past 90 days!. I am more suspicious of that poster's motives than I am of Ariadne0614's. You are right, we need to build bridges and watch out for people who may have come here to blow them up. Thank you for accepting the "college girl's" apology.

[customerserviceguy]

82. Yes, that is suspicious

It's election season, and there will be all kinds of tricks played. I just believe that if you find someone who agrees with you 80% of the time, you're better off being their friend, rather than making them your enemy because they're not with you 100%.

[rzemanfl]

89. I think things are so dire "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies.

Once the fascists are defeated we can try to sort out our differences. I am reminded of Eisenhower firing someone for calling a person a "British bastard" during World War II. Narrow mindedness holds the right-wing together; it would destroy our coalition and the enemies of liberal democracy know that.

[ariadne0614]

92. I appreciate your point, although I would be sad if. .

. .anyone here thinks of me as the enemy.

[customerserviceguy]

93. I know I don't

but sometimes, its easy to find people here who are looking for someone to oppose.

Glad that you are able to express your points of view, and to listen to others'.

[ariadne0614]

87. I appreciate being differentiated from suspicious characters.

Thank you.

[ariadne0614]

85. I see. Didn't mean to break any unspoken rules.

Blame it on my Aries Moon. It gets feisty sometimes, and this particular subject has been dear to my heart for a few decades, long before Trump came along. It’s gratifying to see so many men rejecting the dark side of masculinity. I sort of assumed the men of DU “get it,” and was startled to hit a defensive wall with this OP. Bridges do work best when they reach both banks. Anyway, I’m glad we had this little chat.

[customerserviceguy]

88. Me, too

thank you.

[obamanut2012]

70. blah blah blah #notallmen

Sorry, doesn't work any more.

[customerserviceguy]

71. Let's hope

that our eventual nominee doesn't come across this way.

[BlueStater]

48. Oh, bull.

I'm a man and I've got no problem with it. How is it sexist?

[gulliver]

75. Well, I'm a man. Are you saying you speak for me?

[BlueStater]

80. How did you interpret that from my post?

Or is everything just about you?

I also noticed you didn't answer my question.

[obamanut2012]

68. There is literally NO WAY for it to be a sexist phrase

And, yes, it should be used. It kills women every day. It poisons the minds of young men and women.

[ariadne0614]

86. "What will you hand men that works as well?"

I have this image of a conference table of white guys in suits and ties, leaning back in their chairs, waiting for the secretaries to come in with offerings on silver platters. That said, I enjoyed your colorful and imaginative cigarette culture scenario in spite of it’s implication that any alternative to the status quo is bound to be vastly inferior.

[Drahthaardogs]

50. I call bullshit. These are not "masculine men" and I resent

Their behavior being aquatinted with it. I grew up on a working cattle ranch and I was CONSTANTLY around manly men. Men who roped, rode, and worked like dogs. None of them behaved like this. They were quiet men with values and principles.

What we see here are men who don't feel masculine at all, and are compensating with what they think a man should be.

[guillaumeb]

54. So they are cowards?

And in that way, they are just like Trump himself?

[JustAnotherGen]

55. So - they are following

Internal Orders?

Not acceptable - they will still get their comeuppence.

[leftyladyfrommo]

63. I don't think it's the masculinity that is the problem.

I have known lots of really nice masculine men who were really nice people. They were good husbands and fathers and friends.

It's the men who are threatened by women and gays and everything else that are the vicious ones. They either hate women because of a bad mother or homelife or who knows what else. Or they are guys who are unsure of themselves.

[JI7]

65. most of them are Incels and other gross losers like Trump himself

trump is an ignorant gross unattractive pig that relates to them through shared bigotry and resentment of others.

they have a need to believe that failed pig is successful. becsuse white superiority.

[Mc Mike]

90. Poor closeted straight male human beings.

Hitler only had 10%, but people like this swelled their numbers beyond that, in appearance.

I'll support them when they come out. Kimmy Schmidt did a sub plot on this, with SNL member Bobby Moynihan playing the 'closeted human being' character.