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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe just witnessed the worst aspect of soccer - *spoilers*
Last edited Sun Jul 7, 2019, 05:52 PM - Edit history (2)
Hard fought contest, scoreless, neither team can generate a goal during the normal course of play, and then suddenly...
A Dutch lady tries VERY HARD to kick a ball, so much so that her entire body came upside down, absolutely no intent, whatsoever, to foul the American....
And then a cheap goal from a penalty.
And they call this "sport".
I'm certainly very happy that American women are the best at this game, but can you tell that I don't like soccer? LOL
Edited to add (because some have misread my actual point):
- Yes, it certainly was a penalty.
- Yes, such high reckless kicks certainly should be penalized, regardless of intent.
Funtatlaguy
(10,870 posts)It was incidental contact.
But that doesnt exist in soccer ⚽️
Just one more reason that soccer sucks.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Funtatlaguy
(10,870 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)In American football, for instance, you can't just push a player over when they're trying to catch a pass.
Do you watch much sport?
That was a clear penalty - I called it before it went to VAR
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)Not a hard call.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)The point stands. The fact that a penalty can decide so much says a lot about soccer.
malaise
(268,930 posts)sarisataka
(18,600 posts)You just don't like soccer and will find a reason to support your opinion?
Are there any other sports you judge the rules so harshly?
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,715 posts)That score and change the game...a penalty that takes away a touchdown in football, changes the game...all with clear and unarguable penalties...what does that say about sports?
Im not a soccer fan...but I am a sports fan and dont agree with some penalties (especially if they are against my team) but rules are rules like it or not. Tell me of one sport where a called penalty may not change the game.
fishwax
(29,149 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)Soccer and hockey are more susceptible to "penalty distortions"; soccer more so, what with the enhanced penalties in the box.
The only way around that issue, that I can tell, would be to try to adjust the game so that scoring is easier. You could make the goals bigger, but that's a major adjustment--probably a bridge too far. The NHL did away with the dumb two-line pass rule, which opened the game back up. I wouldn't mind seeing soccer loosen up the off sides rule, and give the offensive players more leeway.
fishwax
(29,149 posts)from the rest of the game. The percentage of points awarded by a penalty shot is higher in soccer than in basketball, sure, but that doesn't really mean that fouls have a bigher impact on the game as a whole. Football doesnt have any points that come directly from a penalty try (i suppose pass interference in the end zone under nfl rules would come closest, but it's not really the same), but fouls still play a huge part in the game. The NFC championship thus year hinged on a penalty (that wasn't called).
The foul today didn't happen in isolation, but was at least in part a function of a defense wearing down after holding up admirably for three-quarters of pressure. You see the same thing a lot in basketball, too.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)then propose some rule changes: two points for an action field goal, one point for a penalty kick. I wouldn't mind a proposal like that since there us no way to fully discern intent.
But I suspect you would just be spitting into the wind.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)but a penalty deciding everything happens in nearly every sport all of the time.
Football, basketball, hockey...
JDC
(10,125 posts)Sports outcomes are quite often decided by officiating and calls on the field.
jayschool2013
(2,312 posts)in football, basketball, hockey, horse racing, etc.
A foul is defined by the rulebook, no matter the sport.
It's not a problem with soccer. In fact, it's not a problem at all, but definitely nothing to pin on soccer.
mobeau69
(11,141 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)don't care about intent.
MichMan
(11,910 posts)That penalty is hardly ever enforced
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,338 posts)... that ALL the fouls are intentional. So the last three minutes can last for 20 minutes. Are any of the intentional fouls called as "intentional"?
mobeau69
(11,141 posts)If they aren't making a play on the ball or they foul one of the other players without the ball an intentional will be called every time.
Funtatlaguy
(10,870 posts)ananda
(28,858 posts)...
malaise
(268,930 posts)sarisataka
(18,600 posts)Had the Netherlands player intentionally kicked the US player ot would have been a penalty and a red card
jayschool2013
(2,312 posts)I'm always amazed at the number of people who watch soccer and then post comments on message boards about how they don't like soccer.
Funtatlaguy
(10,870 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Response to lunamagica (Reply #37)
Post removed
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)WTF is wrong with you???
You go to a sports bar the morning of the World Cup Finals and call the #uswnt's historic win "shit"?
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)In their sport put an exclamation point on an excellent tournament. They saw the champions face a worthy opponent who made them earn the right to keep their crown for another four years. They saw the final game of a month that won millions of fans to the women's side of the sport and likely inspired girls across the globe to take the chance and teach for their dreams. All of this done in spite of outrageous, widening pay gaps and being treated as a sideshow by their own governing body.
Others just saw "shit"
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)however that was 100% a penalty and a yellow
It does not matter what the intent of the player was, and I agree she did not mean to kick the US player, but what actually happened. A reckless kick that does not touch the ball but instead strikes an opponent is a direct free kick foul; inside the box it is a penalty kick.
The referee did not have a good line to see the foul. Were I in her place I would have consulted the AR who had a clear view of play. FIFA is telling the refs to rely on VAR.
malaise
(268,930 posts)The Ref called for a corner while I was screaming penalty and then the VAR folks spoke to her - when she saw the replay that was that - clear penalty
A high kick is a high kick. Any soccer player, even nice Dutch ladies, get the card for that.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)My objection is that penalties determine so much. In fact, 100% of the scoring up to that point.
Got it?
As far as soccer fans hurt that some others don't like soccer: Get over it. You're perfectly entitled to enjoy it, and I'm happy that you do. To each his own. Really. I was just explaining one of the many reasons I will never like it.
mcar
(42,302 posts)Don't like the sport, don't watch. I don't watch US football for that reason.
I'm off to enjoy the US women's win.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Because that's kind of a stupid point and it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. The rules are in place to maintain the integrity of the game, protect the players from injury, and provide a platform for the better team to win.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)I'm saying that FOR ME the game is structurally boring, and that random penalties determine too much. I have several ideas that would preserve the basic nature of the game but would make it a lot more fun to watch. I won't share these here.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)You might want to either (a) stop watching soccer; (b) quit complaining about something you clearly don't understand; or (c) learn something so you don't sound quite so ignorant.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)It's not rocket science. I understand it fully.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)I understand you think you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Really. Education can overcome ignorance, but stubbornness doesn't overcome anything.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)I never said otherwise. I never said it SHOULDN'T be a penalty, either. Nothing difficult to understand. You're just upset that somebody criticized soccer. Get over it.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Did either team plan on it?
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)If you have ideas to improve something why not share them?
Otherwise it is simply empty criticism
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)The video is vey clear.
TeamPooka
(24,221 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)LOL
Iggo
(47,549 posts)See how that works?
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Reading is fundamental.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)I was being nice.
Thanks for the insult.
Have fun.
malaise
(268,930 posts)or playoffs
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)If she had made contact, there would not have been a penalty kick. They checked the video carefully.
Players can't pretend they are kicking the ball when they are really just trying to illegally interfere in play. The rules are to help protect players and ensure they play the game, not physically intimidate each other.
And the ref missed another one during the first half, then turned around and yellow-carded a US player for doing the same thing one minute later.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Thank you
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)No penalties, no time limits, no substitutions.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Reading is fundamental.
Funtatlaguy
(10,870 posts)They cant understand why many of us are bored as hell by it.
Just enjoy it. I don't Care that you do. Why do you care that I dont.
The only good thing about today is I hope it pissed off Trump that Rapinoe won. Her I like.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)sarisataka
(18,600 posts)To be the most whiny, petulant snowflakes. They can't wait for the one match every few years to appear on regular TV and bump their precious "American" sports for a couple hours, giving them the opportunity to cry over how boring soccer is and let everyone know it.
You may have been held "captive" at a sports bar, but no one forced you to watch anything. I regularly go to a sports bar for their chicken wings and I could not tell you a single thing going on one of their twenty TVs. I simply don't watch.
Now perhaps you were superglued to a seat facing a TV but no one forced you to go online and post your opinion about how boring you think the sport it. I would much rather go to the dentist everyday of March than watch a single minute of basketball. Yet I don't go around posting how banal I think the sport is and insulting the fans. I let them have their month, along with the other 8 months of NBA games, and find something constructive to do with my time. Maybe watch a football match...
mcar
(42,302 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)LOL. I'm not the one crying because my sport has been criticized.
Enjoy your sport. It's quite OK to me that you do. My post was merely an explanation why I (and others I know) will never like it. In a nutshell: too much random stuff comprising too much of the outcome. Not a big enough percentage of the scoring by way of tactics.
And it's a real pity... because I've always WANTED to like it, but never could. And it could be so easily fixed but soccer "purists" will cry about that, too.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)Only one that I see crying is about how a boring, randomly decided "sport" is allowed on their TV. If you don't like it, why did you watch it?
You claim that penalties too often decide games doesn't hold up statistically. Per FIFA, the 52 matches averaged 2.8 goals per game. The penalty average was .3 per game. I have not yet seen stats for how many were saved, not every PK results in a goal.
Again you hint you have the solution (usual ideas are along the lines of making the goals the size of a drive-in screen) but will keep it to yourself.
Denzil_DC
(7,232 posts)let alone watched enough matches to understand it.
Myself, I find the constant stoppages in American football an immense turnoff. It looks mostly like an intermittent explosive brawl with the ball as an inconvenience, punctuated by lengthy breathers, rather than the flow of play you get in soccer and rugby and other ball sports. Not a problem - it's not on TV often where I am, I don't go out of my way to watch it, and if a post pops up here discussing a game, I'd just find something else to read or do. It may just be that I haven't watched it enough to understand the nuances, of course.
Whatever, well done to the US team for a hard-fought and exciting final match. They were deserving winners.
And if the low score is one of your gripes, if not for an absolutely stellar performance from the Netherlands' goalkeeper, it could easily have been 10-0.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)But I do not go posting how dumb they are. I just reconize what they are and what purpose they serve in the greater human condition. Let people have their pleasures and don't whine about it.
3catwoman3
(23,973 posts)Here is my post, #98, on the matter:
98. I find golf, American football, and bowling stultifyingly dull. A few others, too.
With this one exception right here, right now, I would NEVER go on a thread about these sports and complain about how much I didnt like them, let alone start one.
If others like/love them, why should I rain on their parade?
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Although I used to like to bowl when I was younger.
3catwoman3
(23,973 posts)That was also my score -
That might have something to do with why I dont care for it.
I think the best game I ever rolled was 150.
Had a custom ball and bag.
Did you ever try duckpins?
3catwoman3
(23,973 posts)My surname is Ball, and I completely suck at any thing that requires any accuracy with one.
I used to be a pretty good dancer, however. I claim to be an esthete rather than an athlete.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Just my opinion but I don't get it.
Music Man
(1,184 posts)There are 11 fouls that result in a direct kick, and thus if they happen in the penalty area, they result in a penalty kick. It's worked fine for a century.
A common mantra in referee training is that you can't read players' minds. You judge the action itself. Intent *can* be a factor, and it's addressed accordingly. Fouls done recklessly receive a yellow card, and fouls done with excessive force receive red.
Stop shitting on a sport lots of people love. Soccer bashing is so freaking old. Got any jokes about airline food while you're at it?
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Music Man
(1,184 posts)Still not sure of your point other than soccer is not a real sport because penalty kicks can be consequential?
Denzil_DC
(7,232 posts)That was the crux of why it was a foul, and worthy of a yellow card, and many who've replied here haven't picked up on it.
It was dangerous play. Players are entitled to go hard for the ball, and they may not always connect, but in the process you can't put the studs on your boots where they may well do another player harm, like around head level, for instance.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)The point is that putting your foot that high where the opposing player is going to be impedes them. That is "a foul". Basketball and American football, for instance, have similar rules, about what is or isn't a legal block or tackle.
"Trying very hard" is OK as a yardstick for a kickaround, but formal sport has formal rules.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)that it shouldn't be a penalty.
You and others are arguing a strawman.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)which is a pretty bizarre thing to say about a professional athlete. Of course she did it on purpose. You don't get a reflex like that. You tried to dismiss it as "trying very hard". That's the kind of thing you might say to a 6 year old you're teaching the basics to, but it's hardly a sensible comment to make on an adult board.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)I read the thread snd the video is clear
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)You are wrong in your analysis
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)I never argued that it wasn't a penalty.
I never argued that it shouldn't have been a penalty.
I never argued that intent should factor into a ref's decision on whether or not to call a penalty.
That's just you seeing what you want to see.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)The Danish player was very lucky not to get a red card
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)The Danish player could have been ejected due to this foul. That is how the rules work in the real world
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)In this match, the US women dominated. The score could have easily been 5-0.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)onenote
(42,694 posts)and because it could decide the contest (although in this case it didn't) soccer doesn't deserve to be a sport
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)But, yes, it was a cheap goal.
onenote
(42,694 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)onenote
(42,694 posts)And what about foul shots -- was it cheaper than a foul shot in basketball?
onenote
(42,694 posts)without intent to commit a foul?
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)Appreciate quality when you see it. That's a special team.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Not sure why you question its status as sport because of that.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)It's so sparse on tactics that penalties too often play an inordinate role in the outcomes.
onenote
(42,694 posts)Holding penalties that kill drives. Pass interference penalties that put a team in scoring position. Face mask penalties or defensive holding calls that keep drives alive. A significant number of scoring drives are impacted by penalties and the same is true for many non-scoring drives.
In basketball, foul shots often can represent the margin of victory, as can power play or penalty shots in hockey.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)...then there would be no reason to not wreck someone every time they get into scoring range.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Many hockey games are determined by power play goals, NFL penalties often derail potential scoring drives multiple times a game (or hands the other team a score), in the NBA free throw shooting is often the difference between winning amd losing.
Voltaire2
(13,009 posts)Your ignorance of the game is stunning but do carry on.
Oh and the rules regarding penalty kicks are absolutely necessary or the defense would just knock down any player near their goal.
The American were dominating on offense and the Dutch team was getting desperate on defense. That desperation led directly to the high foot that caused a penalty kick.
It didnt change the outcome, it was the inevitable result of the situation the Dutch were in.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Especially in comparison to football.
Voltaire2
(13,009 posts)As noted.
FakeNoose
(32,633 posts)I think your complaint is really about the fact that officiating soccer isn't the same as officiating American football, am I right?
Secondly Megan Rapinoe's penalty kick was not a "cheap goal." She's their ace-in-the-hole winner, their bring-it-home star player.
The American team played awesomely both offense and defense. The Dutch team was also great but they didn't get as many chances to score in this game. There were very few mistakes or bad calls that I could see. The Netherlands team can hold their heads high, they played a great game and they got beat today.
onenote
(42,694 posts)Are points scored on foul shots in basketball "cheap"
(Heck at least in soccer and hockey there is a defender).
3catwoman3
(23,973 posts)With this one exception right here, right now, I would NEVER go on a thread about these sports and complain about how much I didnt like them, let alone start one.
If others like/love them, why should I rain on their parade?
elias7
(3,997 posts)I get it. You dont appreciate process. You want results in the form of scoring.
Its kind of like having kids. You can either spend your time enjoying the moments of ongoing growth, or you can spend your time reveling or despairing over their achievements or lack thereof...
Soccer is a life game and Im sorry you dont appreciate its nuances...
Kingofalldems
(38,451 posts)Don't you think?
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)underpants
(182,769 posts)And it was in the penalty box.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)If you don't like the game, you don't have to watch it.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)JCMach1
(27,556 posts)That's part of the game... Like penalties in any sport
Marrah_Goodman
(1,586 posts)So I just don't watch them. Easy.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)hunter
(38,310 posts)U.S.A. football reminds me of the first time I played cricket as a displaced teen in another land, when all I could think is:
is happening here?
U.S.A. football was a mystery to me until I started watching games like the Superbowl with my father-in-law.
I have a sister who is a "soccer" amazon, she's been playing and coaching for half a century, so maybe I'm prejudiced.
The only team sport I've ever any competency at was recreational co-ed softball. Sometimes when I'd hit the ball it would go fast and far, and whenever I was running hard, in the field or around the bases, nobody wanted to get in the way of the big crazy eyed klutz wearing glasses.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)hunter
(38,310 posts)War is stupid.
Goodheart
(5,321 posts)But games are not.
hunter
(38,310 posts)Pretty good too, second or third, sometimes fourth ranking, we try harder.
Yet my physically and intellectually reckless younger brother would destroy me in chess and he never joined a chess club. He's successful in a way I was not. And in his youth he was an occasional bone-breaking terror in physical blood sports. He plays a damned fine game of golf too.
I introduced our oldest kid to chess, and my wife and I encouraged high school sports, with success, but oldest kid decided it was all boring, graduated from prestigious college, got married, owns house of higher value than our own in left coast urban California, travels the world before age thirty.
My wife and I bought our first house in our twenties, but it was in the rustbelt Midwest and cost a little less than $8,000. We live in a California place where I sometimes bitch about gang graffiti on our back wall as I paint it over.
Our children, nephews, and nieces are all ferocious, in games and the "real" world, and I think that's what the U.S.A. is supposed to be about -- that the next generation does better than you.
My father-in-law was born in a tent in a Mexican farm labor camp a few hundred meters from a small orchard my parents used to own. My wife and I, who met having escaped rural and suburban California hell to the Big City, knew nothing of this until we were irrevocably engaged.
I don't have anything nice to say about games or game theory.
The universe doesn't care.
My ancestors were largely pacifist religious dissidents who came to the U.S.A. in the eighteenth and nineteenth century because they didn't want to play those games, and the remaining were just out ahead of the English hangman.
Music Man
(1,184 posts)The foul that was called is not "dangerous play" or "high kick." The specific foul was that the player kicked Alex Morgan.
The additional fact that it was so high makes it a reckless foul and is thus a yellow card.
Dangerous play in itself (such as a high kick that does not actually make contact with the opponent) is an indirect free kick, and anything that would result in an indirect free kick doesn't result in a penalty kick, even if it's in the penalty area. It would be an indirect kick from the spot where the offense occurred. Only the 11 penal fouls that would result in a direct free kick can be penalty kicks (as a penalty kick is a form of direct free kick).
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)your complaint is moot.
Voltaire2
(13,009 posts)I know Rapinoe made it look easy, but that was an awesome bit of misdirection she executed.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Asinine.
BooScout
(10,406 posts)If you don't like football then don't criticise what you don't understand.
It wasn't a 'cheap goal'. It was part of the game. You kick another player recklessly, you get a yellow card and the other team gets a penalty kick.
In sports, there are rules and when you break the rules and get caught, you get penalised.
We go through life with rules. Calling the goal a 'cheap goal' is like calling a vehicular homicide an accident. Rules in sport, as in life are there for a reason.
honest.abe
(8,677 posts)That was a beautiful skillful penalty shot beating one of the best goalies in the world.
Scoring as a result of a penalty is a significant part of every sport.