What are the legal ramifications of having a fake Austrian passport

[zooks]

and using it?

[PoliticAverse]

1. Is it a "fake passport" or is a real passport using an alias. n/t

[customerserviceguy]

2. Just playing devil's advocate here

What if he had a credible fear of being on a hijacked plane where terrorists were shooting Americans?

I wouldn't put that past one of his attorneys to bring up in court, if need be.

[zooks]

4. If that's the case do all Americans have a right to travel with phony

documents? It could also be argued that it'd be a way to slip out the US in case he was being pursued by the police.

I'm also wondering whether it would be Austria to pursue charges since he has a fake Austrian passports?

[fescuerescue]

28. maybe

I could see it falling under a free speech argument quite easily.

It's pretty clear it's a crime to use it to fool an American government official. But just possessing? Just using it to fool terrorist or other non-officials? I doubt that it's a slam dunk

As for Austria? who knows. They might have an airtight shut case (or not). If he and it were in Austria.

[pnwmom]

9. That's exactly what his attorney argued. Here's why it doesn't pass the smell test.

They argued that he only had it for emergencies like that, and he had never used it.

But the prosecutors say it has numerous stamps of him using it in countries like France.

[leftieNanner]

27. And Saudi Arabia

Nothing sketchy about that.

[Jake Stern]

30. Don't know if they still make them

but there used to be a market for so called camouflage passports - usually former nations (Irish Free State, British Guiana, Rhodesia, etc). The story is that businessmen and others would carry them in case they were hijacked or taken captive. If they were discovered by customs they could say they were a "gag gift".

[customerserviceguy]

33. Interesting

Of course, no one would present one of those to get stamped at a port of entry. Yeah, this looks pretty bad, and is probably one of the reasons he didn't get bail.

[jberryhill]

3. (A) none. (B) using it for what?

It would be illegal, for example, to hold it tightly over someone’s mouth and nose in order to suffocate them to death.

“Using it” is not specific. Using it where? Using it for what purpose?

[zooks]

5. Thanks for the reply but as a lay person I find it shocking

that its not illegal. Awfully handy to get out of the US if someone let's say was involved in an illegal activity.

[jberryhill]

6. What do you mean "get out of the US"?

You don’t need a passport of any kind to leave the US.

At Tijuana, for example, you can walk right into Mexico if you like.

Whether some other country chooses to admit you is up to them, but no one in an official capacity checks your passport when you leave the US.

When you drive, for example, into Canada, no one from the US checks you on the way out.

That’s why I’m curious to know what you meant by “used it”. If I use a fake passport to travel between, say, Kenya and Switzerland, that’s not a crime in the US.

(And no, I’m not talking about commercial airline procedures designed to reduce their costs in the event people can’t enter at the destination)

[zooks]

7. I meant when one lands somewhere. It was a long time ago

I believe I had to show my passport when I landed in London, England.

[jberryhill]

8. Okay

But that’s an important distinction when you are asking “is it a crime”. I would imagine it probably is a crime, in the UK, to provide an invalid passport when you land there.

That would not be a crime here, however.

So if you could show that Epstein illegally entered the UK, then you would have proved he committed a crime somewhere other than the US.

[zooks]

10. got it . thx

[pnwmom]

11. The argument the prosecution made was that this shows

he has the knowledge of how to acquire a passport with a false name AND that this would facilitate travel outside the country if he did escape home detention.

[jberryhill]

12. Yeah, that's another kettle of fish

But the question is how does he get out of the house with a minder, an ankle bracelet, and surveillance?

The question to which I was responding is not about its relevance in the context of this hearing.

[pnwmom]

13. He gets out with lots money for bribes for multiple conspirators. n/t

[Sgent]

31. Yes

but that's for purposes of bail.

If I had a Russian passport that was valid (was a dual citizen), they could use that against me in a bail hearing because I could flee to Russia and there is no extradition treaty.

[dumbcat]

16. Are you pretty sure that mere possession of

a fake (meaning to conceal actual identity) isn't against some US law? I'm just a layman, but it seems to me that mere possession of so many things is illegal, that surely possession of fake passport (means of ID) would be illegal.

[jberryhill]

17. Lemme know what you find here...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-25

[dumbcat]

18. Found nothing there, but how about ......

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028

Title 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE Part I. CRIMES Chapter 47. FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS Section 1028. Fraud and related activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information

(a) Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (c) of this section—
...
(4) knowingly possesses an identification document (other than one issued lawfully for the use of the possessor), authentication feature, or a false identification document, with the intent such document or feature be used to defraud the United States;

...

(c) The circumstance referred to in subsection (a) of this section is that—
(1) the identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document is or appears to be issued by or under the authority of the United States or a sponsoring entity of an event designated as a special event of national significance or the document-making implement is designed or suited for making such an identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document;
(2) the offense is an offense under subsection (a)(4) of this section; or


Would that work, maybe?

[jberryhill]

19. Where are you getting this element:

“with the intent such document or feature be used to defraud the United States”

What is the evidence, beyond any reasonable doubt, he possessed the document with that intent?

As I mentioned above, whether he uses it elsewhere is not a concern of US law.

[dumbcat]

20. I figured it would be

Obvious that the intent would be to evade US authorities when escaping the country. But yeah, I guess you can’t prove it until it happens.

Thanks, I always find this stuff fascinating.

[Yeehah]

14. So, Austria has no laws against having a fake Austrian passport?

Interesting.

[jberryhill]

15. Well if Epstein finds himself in an Austrian court, then I guess we'd find out

But I don’t think he’s going to be in Austria anytime soon.

[Yeehah]

21. That's OK

It's a crime in the US to use a forged foreign passport.

18 U.S. Code § 1543. Forgery or false use of passport


Whoever falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, mutilates, or alters any passport or instrument purporting to be a passport, with intent that the same may be used; or

Whoever willfully and knowingly uses, or attempts to use, or furnishes to another for use any such false, forged, counterfeited, mutilated, or altered passport or instrument purporting to be a passport, or any passport validly issued which has become void by the occurrence of any condition therein prescribed invalidating the same—

Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 25 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929(a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years (in the case of any other offense), or both.

[jberryhill]

22. Did he use it in the US

Which goes back to “used for what?”

What did he use it for in the US?

Read what you posted.

Did he make a fake passport with the intent that someone use it?

The other part of the crime you posted is about making or furnishing a fake passport to someone else.

[Yeehah]

23. The original question was the legal ramifications of using a forged Austrian passport.

Which you incorrectly answered were none.

The statute says "Whoever willfully and knowingly uses" a forged passport can be imprisoned for 15 years for using the forged passport for "any other offense." Let me go out on a limb and guess that entering any country on a forged passport would fall under "any other offense."

Please elaborate on your conclusion that extraterritorial jurisdiction does not apply. The statute does not state that the crime must have occurred in the US.

[jberryhill]

24. The US does not rule the world

It is not a US crime any time anyone anywhere in the world uses a fake passport.

It is inherent that a crime be committed in the US, or directed into the US.

Even for things like the sex tourism statute passed a few years ago (and which might be relevant to Epstein) the crime is traveling from the US to another country for the purpose of having sex with a minor.

But, no, it is not a US crime to use a fake passport in some other country.

[Yeehah]

25. Tell the judge.

Maybe he'll buy the argument, "The US does not rule the world."

https://www.insightcrime.org/news/analysis/as-us-prosecutes-foreign-crimes-how-far-can-its-extraterritorial-jurisdiction-reach/

[jberryhill]

26. That's got nothing to do with use of a false passport abroad

[fescuerescue]

29. Different question entirely

The judge is entitled to use any and all information to determine if he's a flight risk for the purpose of setting bail. Bail is not considered punishment, nor is holding until trial.

Owning a fake passport makes him a flight risk.

But it's not a crime to simply own the document and probably falls under 1st amendment protection.

[pnwmom]

32. But the question in the OP was broader than the question you seem to be answering.

The OP didn't ask if possession of the passport was a crime in the US. The OP asked what the legal ramifications were.

And among the possible legal ramifications is that a judge in a bail hearing could decide that the ability to procure such a passport increased the likelihood that the accused might flee -- and thus, the judge could cite the ownership of a fake passport as part of the legal basis for denying bail.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ramification

ramification
a related or derived subject, problem, etc.; outgrowth; consequence; implication:

[fescuerescue]

37. Seems like one of the ramifications

is that if you are charged with another crime, simple possessing a fake passport makes you a flight risk.

Even if you are eventually found innocent of the crime and nor charged with presenting the fake passport.

Sitting in jail awaiting trial is pretty big ramification, even if owning a fake passport isn't illegal.

[gldstwmn]

34. I thought it was a Saudi passport?

[pnwmom]

35. It was an Austrian passport listing an address in Saudi Arabia.n/t

[gldstwmn]

38. Good lord. You know

that's probably not the only one that he has.