I need you to breathe a fact in, savor it, and really accept it

[Recursion]

Here it is:

Poor white Trump voters are not voting against their own interests. You are just appalled and horrified at what their interests are.

I need you to keep that in mind as we go forward with this election. We're not talking about duped simpletons or honest salt-of-the-Earth folk who have been swindled. The cruelty is the point, and that's what they want. We are talking about garbage people you wouldn't leave in charge of your kids. And they're a large part of our country, our communities, our families. But they've been given way too much rope here.

We need to go into this election open-eyed, knowing that there are a large number of Americans whose idea of America is fucking horrific.

[Hoyt]

1. + 10000. And they are proud of it.

[enid602]

114. Benefits

But they still can’t believe he’ll go after SS, Medicare and Medicaid. But he will.

[BamaRefugee]

119. They don't care. They have so much self loathing they don't think they even deserve it.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

124. Not at all. They think they deserve such things,

but loathe it that other people get them, especially persons of color.

[BigmanPigman]

125. They are the definition od sadists.

[Bettie]

2. I became aware of this right after the 2016 election

when they all ripped of their masks and showed everyone who they really are.

Before that night in November, there was a social necessity to appear to be decent, non-hateful people.

That disappeared almost immediately.

I may have to deal with many of these people in various situations, but I will never again trust them and I will never forget who they have shown themselves to be, at their core. I won't forget, even after the pendulum swings back to a place where the masks are expected again.

[bearsfootball516]

60. Trump enables a lot of them.

I think if we beat him in 2020, a lot of them will slither back under their rocks.

[Bettie]

62. But we can't forget what they have shown us

they can't go back to pretending to be decent people. We don't have to be mean, we don't have to shun them, but we should remember who thought all of this was OK.

[llmart]

81. Oh, I don't know.

I think shunning them is what they deserve. I fully intend to shun the ones I know. I don't need these people in my life. There are too many other good people I would rather have in my life or do business with.

[malaise]

3. The horrific truth is that

people like these exist in all our societies - vile racist women and children hating scumbags

[Texin]

51. These *things* - I can't call them beings - are lizard entities. If that.

I don't actually believe they are fully human. They are like remnants or recombinants left over from an ancient creature that never developed into any modern brained mammalian being. Mitch McConnel and his ilk are part of this race. They are unfazed by the changes in the planet and have no need to care because they will be untouched physically and don't have the emotions to be disturbed by it or nor anything else. Chilling.

[NBachers]

107. Excellent, well-worded post.

[malaise]

129. Oh they are human alright

sick humans

[DemocracyMouse]

52. In the 19th cent. we turned to education to enlighten the public....

If that sounds elitist... it isn't. It's idealism. Elitism is a fat golfer who sits on a gold plated toilet paid for by his daddy and spews hatred at all immigrants except his own uneducated German family.

I'll take idealism for $1 trillion.

Bonus points: the new education must include a large dose of media literacy and not be squeamish on the science.

[BSdetect]

4. I never had any illusions about the capacity of humans to vent hatred on others.

[Glorfindel]

5. Perfectly stated, Recursion. I have had the same thoughts. You put them into words.

These people are mean. They aren't misguided or duped. They detest Muslims, Hispanics, blacks, and LGBTQ people. "The cruelty is the point." Truer words were never spoken.

[watoos]

6. It's both Recursion,

You are right but Trump voters have also been duped into voting against "some" of their best interests.

A lot of Trump voters are racist, bigoted, misogynist people who love that Donald Trump is one of them.

Trump voters are people who were fooled into believing that unions are bad for workers. Trump voters are people who believe that Democrats are the party that spends their tax dollars and increases the deficit. Trump voters are people who believe that regulations that protect consumers, protect our environment are job killers.

It's a mixture of both Recursion, I see where you are coming from.

[StarfishSaver]

11. They haven't been fooled. They know exactly what they're doing

Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2019, 09:26 AM - Edit history (1)

In the short-term, it may seem that they're voting against their economic interests. But in reality they think Trump's racist social policies will benefit them economically in the long run. They believe their economic interests are suffering because they have to compete with black and brown people and if they can go back to sanctioned white superiority, they will have more access to a larger piece of the pie - which is true.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. THIS.

[volstork]

28. Well-said.

(PS-- love your handle!)

[KPN]

55. I dunno ... I think you are giving them too much credit ... they don't have an ability to reason

and think objectively in my view. But there's no question any Trump supporter must absolutely be a racist. One can't be one and not the other.

[StarfishSaver]

66. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that keeping black and brown people down means

white people have a better shot at grabbing more stuff. These people are terrified and angry because they know they can't compete but have always been told they're superior to the people who are eating their lunch.

[saidsimplesimon]

103. Correct, this is

the primary reason among most of my relatives, but none of my friends. In public, they will claim they hold no prejudice. In private, they will say things like, "Can't you afford to live in a better neighborhood?" (I live in a most diverse liberal section in Phoenix.)

[DBoon]

64. They wish slavery were back

Their perfect society has a permanent desperate underclass will to serve their every need and gratefully accept their contempt and abuse

[lagomorph777]

110. Larger piece of a smaller pie.

Racism is economically inefficient. Look how it worked out in the Civil War.

Racism is also very patient. Look how it worked out post-Civil War.

[Funtatlaguy]

7. Yep. At least 40% of our country are TRULY deplorable.

[StarfishSaver]

8. Thank you. You are absolutely right

They are definitely not voting against their interests. They may be voting against their economic interests (and even that's questionable since they think they'll have more economic opportunities if they don't have to compete with black and brown people), but that's because there are other things that are much more important to them.

And if I hear one more white person tell me, "My mother-sister-friend supports Trump, but they're not racist ..." Or one more Democrat tells me "We need to reach out to these voters can calling them deplorable or racist or playing 'identity politics' doesn't help," someone may need to bail me out of jail.

[wasupaloopa]

131. I have relatives that voted for trump and they are not racists.

What are you going to do about?

We have black, brown, white, gay and straight in our family. The diversity comes from marriage mostly.

We get together on holidays and birthdays and no fights or hating like this in thread.

This thread is sickening. Not only has trump made it ok for his folks to hate but ours too.

[StarfishSaver]

132. If they're still supporting Trump, in my view, yes, they are racists

And having people of color in one's family doesn't cruise someone is not a racist. It's perfectly possible to have black and brown relatives and still be a racist, as evidenced by the fact that most black Americans have ancestors descended from the children and half-siblings of their white, racist owners.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't feel any hate for those people. I do feel pity mixed with disgust, anger and frustration at the damage they're doing to other people.

It's unfortunate that this thread troubles you, but perhaps you can direct your concern and energy toward your Trump-supporting relatives rather than on those of us who speak the truth about them and are trying to rescue the country from their bad choices.

[Oregon1947]

9. He got 35% latino vote and should have been 0%!

So theres blame to go around?

[Recursion]

10. Most Latinos in the US are white

After 1 generation here they vote indistinguishably from other white Americans

[Oregon1947]

13. Not true at all..like to know where you got your stats

on "most". Please visit areas south of the US sometime.

[Recursion]

14. The census

So, to make that more precise, most Hispanic persons in the US are white. And 2nd generation white Hispanics do not vote noticeably differently from non-Hispanic whites.

[IronLionZion]

26. In the 2010 Census about 53% of hispanics identified as white hispanics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

Cubans are often Republican

[Oregon1947]

29. 53% "identifying" as white isn't close to "most"

and we should have gotten 80-90% latino vote.

[IronLionZion]

38. Our party needs to work on that

to win their votes or at least increase turnout among liberal hispanics

[lunasun]

69. Hispanic is not a race on the census Unless one would pick "other" or is black+ some pick other but

that is vague and may be confusing so a default can become white (Hispanic ethnicity)

They question is ethnicity to divide from non Hispanic whites on the census

but no race selection labeled “Hispanic “ is listed or inference to a “La raza” is on the census
Wiki
In the 2010 United States Census, 50.5 million Americans (16.3% of the total population) listed themselves as ethnically Hispanic or Latino.

Of those, 53.0% (26.7 million) self-identified as racially white. The remaining respondents listed their races as: some other race 36.7%, two or more races (multiracial) 6.0%, Black or African American 2.5%, American Indian and Alaska Native 1.4%, Asian 0.4%, and Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 0.1%.

I do not think most are fooling themselves in to thinking they are Anglo if that is what you mean

Imo it’s just the census racial grouping is incorrect by not including mestizo as a choice

[jberryhill]

61. Anti-abortion Catholics

[JI7]

84. the Latinos and other minorities that support Trump are bigots also

[Neema]

15. They are both voting for him BECAUSE of the cruelty and bigotry while ALSO

ultimately voting against their own best interests. Because anyone who votes for 45 who is NOT a white, male billionaire is voting against their own best interests whether they know/acknowledge it or not. Actually, even the billionaires with their short term gains are voting against their own best interests if we make our planet unfit for human life. And that's the road the GOP is leading us down.

[Politicub]

23. They are voting for their interests. They are not duped. They

are hatred personified and have control of a political party.

They are disinterested in the gains or losses of billionaires. As long as they are getting fed a steady diet to feed their hateful hunger, they are having their interests and needs met.

[crazytown]

16. Yes. That is the worst thing about the Trump presidency,

where he has led his MAGAts, and what it reveals about us and the Republic. Darkness is always there, but today it is marching in broad daylight.

[Anon-C]

17. "The cruelty is the point, and that's what they want"

[Aristus]

18. Yeah. I never believed that economic anxiety bullshit.

These are people who probably grew up pulling the wings off of flies and kicking dogs. The scum of humanity.

[StarfishSaver]

21. But they do think that suppressing minorities will improve their own economic lot

[onecaliberal]

19. K&R

[Politicub]

20. "The cruelty is the point."

I never really believed there would be a moment when the scales would be lifted from their eyes. I did hope they would see their leader as a phony and be demoralized to vote for him.

But your post sounds closer to the truth. Their leader is a mirror image of their beliefs. He becomes more popular with them as he becomes crueler. They truly do have no other agenda than punishing their perceived enemies. They feed off the pain of others.

Thanks for your post. It’s chilling but we need to be reminded over and over of what we are up against.

[IronLionZion]

22. Increasing turnout on our side is better than trying to flip deplorables

anyone who was duped or made an honest mistake would have already left Trump by now. Anyone who would come over to our side already has.

Which is why our side needs to fight voter suppression tactics in important swing states and make sure our voters can and will vote.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

31. 👏🏾

[lunasun]

59. ++ go inner city and reach out to new youth IMO not out to rural areas of bigotry and middle age

[VOX]

24. For Republicans, the bait is racism/xenophobia; but the prize is financially screwing them (and us).

Not taking lightly the serious threat a fascist government poses now, and how, if left unchecked, it will grow even more virulent. Republicans have *always* played to racism, fear, worry, “being left out,” etc. But being Republican now means throwing in with 45, and cranking the insanity up to 11. The best example is Lindsey Graham, who’s gone from serious Trump opponent to absolute lapdog status.

So a lot of it really is about (sadly) “owning the libs.” That’s the pitiful mentality. Unfortunately, as the libs are “owned,” so they are, too, as ALL our taxes go upstream to the mega-rich. Their anger blinds them from grasping that irony.

[Corgigal]

102. I'm waiting,

God forbid, if Trump wins re-election for them to start cutting social security and Medicare. Lots of Trump voters won't believe it's happening. Trump can't wait to screw them over because he believes they are failures. I heard Trump himself say if he runs for President one day, he knew what party he would run with. It wasn't a compliment.

[shanti]

123. I feel that it will really happen

if he gets a second term. That IS the big prize, always has been.

[VOX]

135. It's hard to gauge where Trumpists would finally balk.

Some are so insanely smitten by (and enamored with) their very own fascist dictator, and the one-party, minority rule he’s ushered in, that if 45 told them he’d replace Social Security and Medicare with “something terrific,” they’d likely buy into that lie as well— they’re that far gone.

They are riding high at the moment, since everything thrown at 45 so far hasn’t gotten the necessary traction to dislodge him and his crew of freaks and social misfits.

If all the Democratic “eggs” are put into the 2020 election “basket,” it will be hotly contested, and the way has been cleared for Russian interference (or maybe even vote hacking, as they’ve had four years to work on it). We’ll have to fight fang and claw for a free and fair election— something the Republicans do not want. And how “liberty-patriot-America-loving” is that?

[elevator48]

25. Way too simplistic to be of any value.

Poor white people are not a large % of this country and they certainly are not monolithic in their beliefs. And yes, many have voted against their financial, educational and healthcare interests because they thought abortion, gay rights and guns were more important.

I do agree there is a large number of Americans whose ideas are horrific, but they span the economic spectrum.

[Oregon1947]

30. Agreed..we honestly look ignorant when

posting simplistic stuff.

[Recursion]

32. Nope

because they thought abortion, gay rights and guns were more important

Nope.

That wasn't what they saw as more important. Try again.

[Kurt V.]

77. poor ppl have the lowest voter turnout.

[Recursion]

80. They do. And the lowest military service rate. Basically all our myths about poor Americans

are wrong.

[mountain grammy]

27. my trumper "Christian" inlaws aren't so poor,

but they're white and you are 100% right.. They hated Obama, "couldn't see" that he was a Christian, but pray for trump.. to be truthful, I think they pray TO trump.

[Traildogbob]

34. Not so poor and stupid

I live in a mountainous part of WNC. Very, very, wealthy people, not North Carolinians, have million dollar getaways here they occasionally visit. Over the 4th, many were here for 2 weeks. Trump flags flying off of their huge decks, Hillary for prison on $70,000 suv's. You may say just a small percentage of the populous. Well, yes, but have butt loads of cash to control the elections, and in so, control the tiny little minds of the poor and stupid. We will win over neither. Have to get the 30+ percent that don't have time for democracy to work.

[TommyCelt]

45. Here on LI NY... a red dot in a blue state

They have the gigantic $70K pickup trucks with the huge wheels. Same Hillary for Prison and Trump/Pence 2020 bumper stickers. Usually an American flag designed for display in front of a house flying from the back of the cab.

Baseball hats and aviators are optional. Reckless driving and cutting people off more often than not.

[Traildogbob]

74. I feel your pain!

I am a blue dot in a sea of red. The local Walmart is a museum of white superiority and a genetic super species. Each as wide as the aisle they stuff themselves through. MAGA. Make America Genetically Appalling. The weakest, least diverse genetic Strain of a particular species usually goes extinct. Darwin is way to fucking slow. The destruction of the habitat they dwell in may be a faster way to end them. We half to enhance our adaptability the whatever habitat is left. Not a bright future for anyone.

[JustAnotherGen]

104. NJ 7th

They love their Feerraris and Porches out here.

[Recursion]

36. Trump's top economic group was households making $75K-$100K

We did better with poorer white voters. So, yes, a better phrasing would have been "somewhat richer than average white voters".

[lunasun]

63. ++ 1K to highlight this fact again . Poverty was not the big push to trump some like to imagine

Sounds like a nice excuse but naw

[killaphill]

105. Because people on DU aren't above demonizing the poor.

Thank you for enlightening them with facts.

[Baltimike]

33. THIS!!! All day long. They don't care about FACTS or TRUTH at all

they want to see us suffer...they LIKE it

[vlyons]

35. From the Buddhist perspective

Those people live in the lowest of the 6 realms -- the Hell realm. Hell is not a geographical location. It is a mental point of view, characterized by hatred, intense anger, and great suffering, devoid of offering help to relieve anyone else's suffering. As a Buddhist, I'm supposed to have compassion for them. Truth be told, I get agitated when I am around them. They are filled with dark hateful delusions and find pleasure in seeing others suffer. Welcome to samsara.

The only way out of the Hell is to find someone carrying a big rock, and offer to carry their rock, while they sit down and rest for a while.
(It's a metaphore.)

[YOHABLO]

37. What about rich white Trump voters? Highly educated but watch FOX news.

I have been introduced to a friend whose partner is an anesthesiologist and is an avid Trump supporter and watches FOX news each night. When he's not attending the gay bath house.

[Recursion]

47. Rich people have entirely selfish interests for supporting Trump

I disagree with that but it's not mysterious. Nobody questions why somebody making $100K or more is supporting the Republicans.

[lunasun]

58. But the policies they support are cruel and racists.Not as much out in public like the ralliers ,but

behind closed doors it’s the same shit with better grammar

[mainer]

39. They are, quite simply, white supremacists.

That's become more and more clear. I just had an online argument with one who claims he's not racist, but rants about the "invasion" of nonwhites into superior white nations and how he has a right to fight for his "culture." Whatever "culture" means to him. Beer and telly? He sure doesn't go to the opera.

[FakeNoose]

40. Yes they voted for Chump, but nobody knew about Stephen Miller in 2016

Stephen Miller is the evil puppet-master behind the throne, the vile racist with an extreme hatred of immigrants. Certain kinds of immigrants. Miller has been doing this and Chump is going right along with it.

I think some ChumpHumpers are getting disgusted, at least I hope they are.

[Ligyron]

41. The deplorables are getting screwed.

Screwed good by their corporate and 1% masters. Some don't realize or believe it others know but don't care as long as they think they're "owning the libs".

[Recursion]

70. No, they're not. This is what we need to be open-eyed about

They don't care about making more money. Hell, all of America is pretty much in the richest 15% of the world.

They care about the distance between them and the lowest rung. They worry it's getting smaller than it should.

[zaj]

42. NO!!!!! You are doing what Trump does.

Our entire democracy exists only because we humanize the opposition and negotiate with them out of respect for their needs.

We justify giving up on democracy and seek to destroy the opposition when we dehumanize them.

Don't dehumanize people! The people of the opposition are not "garbage".

The ideas they embrace are. The system that elevates the ideas is.

But all people can embrace horrific, garbage ideas given human nature, tribalism, and the effective use of propaganda.

That system and the manipulative, controlling liars running it are abusive.

Yes, the situation is alarming.
Yes, we should all approach everything with a sense of urgency.
Yes, some of the ideas are garbage. Some of the ideas are fucking horrific.

Our job is to defeat the system that elevates the ideas. And change the minds of the people affected by the abuse.

The people targeted by the lies and propaganda victims being deliberately exploited. They aren't garbage.

[Recursion]

49. Oh, they're human. All too human.

Nothing I said dehumanized them. They are (ironically) why we originally had an electoral college.

[zaj]

53. "We are talking about garbage people"

This is what you said.

[Recursion]

54. Garbage people are people too

[Recursion]

57. More importantly, I humanize them by giving them the agency they claim

I want to erase "voting against their own interests" from our vocabulary. People are (mostly) not idiots. They know what they are doing and for whom they are voting. We owe it to them to take them at their word.

[harumph]

76. Excellent - "I humanize them by giving them the agency they claim."

Spot on. These people aren't stupid.

[Bettie]

65. I understand that they are humans

but they are humans who pretended to be decent people until they were given permission to be the very worst versions of themselves.

I have seen behavior from people I thought were overall good people that shows that it was all an act, a performance when they are just utterly rotten inside. They think it is a good thing to show these parts now.

I can forgive a person for voting for him, but I can not forget what some became in their utter worship of him.

[ismnotwasm]

67. Yes they are

They are wives and husbands and children and sisters and brothers and hard workers and clergy. They have skills and talent. They live and they love. They have adorable babies. They have adorable pets.

But they deliberately and knowingly, because Trump has been in the public eye for decades embrace a monster who maximizes harm. Fuck those people.

[Locrian]

88. THANK YOU!!

>>Don't dehumanize people! The people of the opposition are not "garbage".
I'm continually stunned at what's happening to people and how they are falling into the ancient trap of becoming your enemy.

I said this before and I'll say it again: If we as a society, country, world, etc do not find a way (distasteful as it may be) to come together and work the problems of climate change, healthcare etc then ***we as a species will not survive***

[study war no more]

43. I can't wrap my head around it

I have family members, ones that grew up in the same house as me who are like this. We had the same upbringing, went to the same schools, attended the same church - everything about ages 0-18 was the exact same. They choose to be enamored with this horrible person. These are the same people that were ready to string Bill Clinton up by his testicles for his consensual trysts. That alone makes no sense at all.

And the sad part is, I think I would be lock step with their thinking had I not:

gone to college (they chose not to - whether a degree is right for you or not, college exposes a person to different people / thoughts)
moved away from my hometown (they chose not to)
worked with the indigent (they would never)
changed to a different church
married someone who encourages me to use my brain and my heart

If you can make sense of it, please help me out because I dread visiting my family because they are 'deplorable.'

[Hermit-The-Prog]

44. what percentage of them are just caught up in the cult?

The GOP has been building a cult for at least 40 years, through hate tv and radio, from Atwater, Ailes, Stone, Limbaugh, and Gingrich, to today's Gangsters of Putin such as Gaetz, Gohmert, et. al.

How many MAGAts are simply programmed? Do the irredeemable deplorables make up more than 30% of voters?

None of them are worth bending our platform to reach, IMO, but is there hope that some will de-program over the long term?

[Different Drummer]

46. Well spoken.

DD

[Hortensis]

48. Imo, far too simplistic and thus too much like hatemongering.

Here's something everyone agreeing with this OP should read as a START to filling in the blanks. Take it not as the first or last word on this, but as a clue.

And also as the first sip of an antidote to toxic attitudues developed by too much exposure to pop-culture political coverage, which I believe I'm seeing all over this thread. Note the findings that people who watch a lot "news" are far more deluded about and hostile towards others than people who don't.

Republicans Don’t Understand Democrats—And Democrats Don’t Understand Republicans: A new study shows Americans have little understanding of their political adversaries—and education doesn’t help.

... What they found is fascinating: Americans’ mental image of the “other side” is a caricature. ... According to the Democratic caricature, most Republicans stridently oppose immigration, hold deeply prejudiced views about religious minorities, and are blind to the existence of racism or sexism. Asked to guess what share of Republicans believe that immigration can strengthen America so long as it is “properly controlled,” for example, Democrats estimated about half; actually, nearly nine in 10 agreed with this sentiment. ...

Unsurprisingly, Republicans are also prone to caricature Democrats. ...

Americans who rarely or never follow the news are surprisingly good at estimating the views of people with whom they disagree. On average, they misjudge the preferences of political adversaries by less than 10 percent. Those who follow the news most of the time, by contrast, are terrible at understanding their adversaries. ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/republicans-and-democrats-dont-understand-each-other/592324/

[mr_lebowski]

56. Not sure I really buy this 'study' ... real easy to get this sort of thing wrong

by asking the wrong questions or in a way that both sides will hear differently.

"Asked to guess what share of Republicans believe that immigration can strengthen America so long as it is “properly controlled,” for example, Democrats estimated about half; actually, nearly nine in 10 agreed with this sentiment. ... "

To the Democrat hearing the question, they're thinking that the Republican answering would be thinking 'the numbers are kept to a reasonable level, but it's done without racial bias', which really probably WOULD be about only 1/2 supported by Repubs IRL.

Whereas the Republican hearing the question hears "properly controlled" and makes up their own definition, which would be along the lines of "keeping down the number of dark-skinned people". That's "proper" to them.

Also Republicans will totally lie when taking these sorts of surveys in order to not sound like total dicks to the interviewer.

[Hortensis]

71. You CAN "buy" and reject whatever you choose.

You COULD of course look it up and learn more before deciding.

Warning: That course involves 100% risk of exposure to studies of resistance to giving up favorite delusions.

We KNOW that if Sanders or Hillary voters were substituted for Trump voters in the OP that everyone would recognize it for hate speech. "We are talking about garbage people you wouldn't leave in charge of your kids."

The worst thing about that is what it does to its victims -- those who endorse it, because it's 100% wrong and delusional. Republicans typically take good, loving care of their kids. And they would yours also if they knew you well enough for you to be asking.

Something else on going on. Actually, a lot else. Fwiw, I do have trouble with its intro mostly dismissing political partisan hatreds. We know that's not true, don't we?

[mr_lebowski]

75. I was only talking about the cited study ...

I think it's pretty difficult to accurately do a study of this nature, and the one question used to illustrate (the one cited in your quote) of the sort of thing they asked ... is not a very illustrative question.

Both 'sides' have their own definitions of something like 'properly controlled immigration'. If a Democrat doesn't take the extra step of trying to reckon 'how would a republican interpret this question?' before answering, they're likely to 'get their estimate wrong'.

I'd bet IOW that only about 1/2 of Repubs would be in 'support' of 'properly controlled immigration' by MY definition of 'proper control'.

But when they get to make up their own definition of 'proper control' it becomes much easier for them (9/10) to say 'yeah, MY kind can strengthen the country ... that's the 'proper' kind, where we just let white people in!' ... You follow?

And I don't buy that people who pay little attention to politics 'know the other side way better'.

OTOH, just because I raise these points about the study doesn't mean I'm total agreement with the OP, or think it isn't a bit OTT.

[Hortensis]

85. :) I once took an on-line test and learned I was RW

authoritarian/fascistic. I'd answered a couple questions "wrong," including saying no I wouldn't to something I considered highly immoral, apparently a non-crowd way of looking at some crowd behavior. So, sure.

And I have real questions about the analysis in this report. But, they did do the questionnaires and gather data that people pushing the OP theme really need to look at and consider. Definitely including the grave harm wallowing on MSNBC (and/or the dissident/RT genre for a few) and its on-line counterparts is doing. This isn't the only study to reveal that.

Above all, people should be wondering how DID trumpsters turn into what they did, and could that be happening to me?

[harumph]

82. Disagree. I do know em.

They're in my family. Whereas, my wife and I may go over to help our aging parents out and say nothing
about it - her sister makes a
show of it every time she performs even a minor action by group texting what she did. Studies have recently shown physical differences
in left vs right leaning brains.
Right wing brains appear to be more "transactional." Every super conservative I've meet keeps a goddamn
mental tally of what they've done and accordingly "what they're owed for it." It's all about
what have you done for me lately. If they're into charity - they won't shut up about it. Virtue signalling
on steroids.
Areas of the brain that register fear and suspicion are larger in persons who self identify as
right leaning.
They'll also be the first ones to divvy up their parents' belongings before the bodies are cold.
So, I respectfully submit that Recursion is correct in the main - it's all about driving others down to cast distinction between
themselves and others.

[KPN]

93. I don't question the role of social media and the 24/7 news media and talking heads in fueling

divide, but I do question the validity of conclusions (i.e., the numerical "perception gaps&quot that spring from this report. Largely because I question the validity of the questions and/or statements one must agree or disagree with. They lack any degree of specificity whatsoever. As a result, they are loaded with confounding variables for which there is zero control. Social research that does not account for and control confounding variables is essentially meaningless.

I don't have the time to go into all the details right now, so let me just leave this link from a Perception Gap reviewer that closely shares some of my specific concerns for right now.

https://arcdigital.media/sorry-but-republicans-and-democrats-do-not-misunderstand-each-other-3c43e6f6498f

I took the quiz by the way. My perception gap relative to Republicans was -23 (quite a bit different from the +19 average Democrat). That means I rated Rs higher than they actually are. Why? Because I thought about what do those questions/statements mean to Rs (not what automatically meant to me upon reading them).

We are divided and extremely so. The simple truth is we don't understand each other -- not because of perception gaps, but because we don't understand how each other can take and support the positions we do. We have different values and different goals.

[The Mouth]

50. And they feel exactly the same way about us

Probably been that way since ancient Athens and Rome.

[greatauntoftriplets]

68. I had this experience a while back with a Trump-voting friend.

We were coming back to my home after eating a meal together. A woman, Ann Marie, who is a neighbor and happens to be Africa-American waited and held the locked building door open for us. After we were indoors and the neighbor was out for one of her daily walks, my friend asked "What's that?" Not "who's that?" but rather used a word to make Ann Marie sound less than human. I told her that it was a neighbor and that Ann Marie is a lovely person.

That told me a lot about this friend, who I have known since kindergarten, and how she voted. Fortunately, I only see her a couple of times a year.

[paulkienitz]

72. they do not all fit in one category

and it isn't right to tar all with the same brush. There are lots of people who can be persuaded to back cruelty if they're reassured with denials, but not once it's clear and obvious. Those who are unconditionally in favor of cruelty are only a fraction.

[Recursion]

73. No. His numbers went *up* after "send her home"

Not down. Up.

Don't let him or his promoters gaslight you. When someone tells you who they are (e.g. by voting), believe them.

[harumph]

86. 50%, 40%, 30%? what fraction?

1/10 of 1%?

do tell.

[SallyHemmings]

78. Amen!!!!!

[Kurt V.]

79. no thanks.

[peggysue2]

83. There was a German writer several months ago

Who basically said, 'now Americans know what it's like when a third of your countrymen lose their minds and consciences.'

We're in that moment and it can swing either way. Which is why losing 2020 is not an option.

[jpljr77]

87. I've got a great idea! Let's demonize our fellow citizens because they don't agree with us!!!!

That's always worked out PERFECTLY in the past. (end of obvious sarcasm)

If you think that 46.1% of the country is as you state, then you're just as blind and hateful as those you're demonizing. We have to WIN THEM BACK, not force them into a corner.

But hey, it makes you feel better, right? To just demonize rather than doing the hard work of actually listening to their legitimate concerns (not the racists) and crafting solutions that benefit the most people possible.

[Recursion]

91. No, I am not

If you think that 46.1% of the country is as you state, then you're just as blind and hateful as those you're demonizing

No, I am not. And your sentence contains its own refutation: they are in fact that hateful. I am not that hateful for stating that fact.

[harumph]

92. How many Germans supported Hitler fervently?

Were the Jews that accused the supporters of being basically "bad" people wrong?? There's got to be
two sides to every story RIGHT?? That's what you're saying. You do get that if it walks like
a duck and quacks like a duck - it probably is a duck. Nobody is demonizing these wretched people b/c they did that
themselves. I'll leave the peace and understanding to the therapists. You're not going to win these folks back.
Anybody who at this point - after all the travesties supports that motherfucker is DEAD TO ME.

[uponit7771]

136. At first and no more than supported Trump

[silentEcho]

89. In the last week, I have had two older white men get into conversation with me that it is white men

That are truly being discriminated against. Not religious, not rw, but Sanders supporters. We have two different groups of white men in both parties that are seeing themselves as the ones with grievance. People I have known almost two decades, out of the blue, arguing that it is a war against white men. I do not know how to argue this. I do not know how these people can create a reality to believe this.

I am a bit flummoxed.

[Recursion]

94. Yup

This may not be the forum for that specific point, but: yes.

[silentEcho]

95. After hearing the first one, I have been asking someone to explain it to me.

I do not get it. I look around me and see all the attacks on POC while being black and rapist getting off because it will ruin their lives and babies in cages; I just do not get how they do it.

[Recursion]

97. The word many people use is "privilege". Take the idea of "wage stagnation".

Take the narrative of "wage stagnation". We all talk about it like it's a thing, but it's not.

Since about 1972, wages overall have "stagnated", but that's misleading. White male wages have fallen, and minority and female wages have skyrocketed. From the end of WW2 until the early 1970s, white men did not have to compete with women or minorities for "good" jobs. Once we did have to start competing, our wages fell somewhat while theirs rose by orders of magnitude.

We have constructed this myth that there was a time in the past where "a high school graduate" could raise a family on a factory salary. But this conceals as much as it illuminates. It was briefly true for some people, in some parts of the country, for a brief period of time. It was never true for African Americans. It was never true for women. It was never true in the South, or the Mountain West.

I am done with paeans to the 1950s. That was not a workable economy. We need to move on and find a different dream.

[silentEcho]

99. Maybe my brain just doesn't process this the same. White men are still making more

than anyone else, for the same job.

I have had millennial say how hard it is compared to the past. I get it, to an extent, but I do not think they see the whole of the picture. Wasn't real easy to pay the monthly bills at minimum wage of $3.25 an hour, even way back then. I was talking to one the other day and it was the first young man that stated some things are harder today, but there were things harder back in my day.

I was surprised and asked, what?

He told me, being black, being a woman.

Being raised during a time with a set of rules that has all gone to the wayside as we aged and having to face a whole different set of rules. And least this generation does not have that expectation of following certain rules to be rewarded at the end.

Thanks for your post.

[Recursion]

100. That is correct: a white man with a high school diploma still makes more

than a black woman with a PhD, on average.

Let that sink in.

But it's white men screaming about wages.

[hunter]

117. This is a damned fine post.

The 1950s were a wonderland for certain straight white males, but not so much for everyone else.

It was not a workable economy.

Once my mom and dad decided to have children, my mom's 1950s career was instantly over. That's just the way it was then. She was essentially blacklisted. My dad didn't have the stay-at-home-dad option I enjoyed.

Even as a stay-at-home dad in the 'nineties I still got a lot more shit than I expected.

My wife's dad was born in a tent to Mexican farm workers near a small farm my parents used to own. His 1950s experience was utterly alien to anything my family knew.

My father-in-law joined the Navy during the Korean War and was assigned to the Marines as a medic. During that time, amidst other horrors, he served as a lab rat for open air nuclear weapons testing. There's not many living now who have witnessed a nuclear bomb explosion up close and marched towards ground zero while stuff was still burning around them.

If there is anything good about the 'fifties the military contributed to my dad's, and my wife's dad's, university educations.

My dad served as a nearsighted Radar O'Reilly army medical clerk who never drew the short straw of serving in Korea. As a horrible teenager, me in the midst of dip-shit clueless fuck teenager fighting with his dad, I once brought that up and his sudden silence scared the hell out of me.

My dad had escaped hell by a lucky roll of the dice. Some close to him had not.

I later had some flirtations with military service, but they were not looking for a few bad me with asthma and mental illness. I was offered work as a civilian teacher in Germany, but first date with my wife was shortly after.

The military wanted my wife real bad, was sending her $10,000 checks and promises to pay off all her student loans, but she didn't want to go there.

[defacto7]

96. The ones I know believe Trump and the GOP conservatives

are there of God's will. They don't care about the facts, they don't care whether Trump is a liar, racist or immoral, they just know it's in the hands of their god. They don't mind suffering or the suffering of others because they suffer for Christ. Hell, many of them want WWIII to hasten the second coming of Christ and those self named Dominionists are even elected or appointed officials like Pence.

It's the ultimate "ends justify the means" philosophy. What happens on earth means nothing, they are fully invested in heaven and the afterlife.

We many times think in logical, reasonable and factual terms but we must never overlook that a huge portion of the rw do not think like us; they don't accept those values. They shun logic, reason and facts as abhorrent to their god and morality is based on bronze age tenets.

[warmfeet]

98. You are absolutely correct.

Trump is their perfect choice.

[Marcuse]

101. We are living in the next phase of the Republican strategy to remake 1954 America.

[Duppers]

109. Yes, they are full of *hatred*. nt

[LonePirate]

106. I disagree. Many of them are indeed duped simpletons.

Many of them, unable to compete (find solid middle class jobs) in the modern economy, are looking for scapegoats for their situation. They refuse to blame themselves for their own general inability to meet the necessary educational and skills requirements for modern jobs. They refuse to blame the corporations, 1%ers and power brokers in this country for the government’s and the economy’s refusal to help them. Instead, they blame minorities and any POC they find because the right tells them to think that and the left won’t speak the truth about why the economy is so rough for them.

Yes, there are plenty of racists and cruel people in this country. Yet there are also plenty of people who would not be lapping up 45’s bullshit if they had a fat bank account and a stable, secure job. Republicans are simply masters at making both sets of people hate the same people.

[harumph]

108. Ok, but don't you think their tendency to

blame others regardless of the reasons (some of which you provide) for their economic situation
breeds a certain cruelty. I don't think Recursion was addressing WHY they're
mean spirited - just that they are.

[Duppers]

111. I agree with you. nt

[LonePirate]

115. I think some of them are angry and want to lash out. The right has given them that mechanism.

[Mike Nelson]

112. I've been saying this...

… the "media" won't talk about them - because they watch TV. They think "wickedness" is coming over the border, not people. Jesus picked Trump to handle the problem. They think women should be pushed around sometimes, so they love & obey men. Wealthy men should pay for abortions on the sly, when they decide one is needed. They don't want Gays getting married and Black people in the White House - that makes them sick.

[Mike Nelson]

113. Hillary called them...

… the Deplorables.

[lefty2000]

116. I Don't Buy It

Poor white Trump voters are not the enemy.

The enemy is ignorance and fear. To brand a whole class of people as garbage is a dangerous error.

[hunter]

118. It's time we end the Civil War.

Burn their Confederate flags, knock down their monuments, take their guns, and throw their leaders in prison.

Would you disagree?

[wasupaloopa]

128. Yes, stop the hate ok? We hate too

[58Sunliner]

120. 26.5% of eligible voters, voted for DT.

That means 73.5% of eligible voters did not vote for him. Of which 9% of AA males who voted, voted for DT, @ 29% of both Latinos and Asians who voted, voted for DT. The majority were not poor. They were men, upper middle income.

[DemoTex]

121. Hope v. Hate (William Faulkner)

"When you have plenty of good strong hating you don't need hope because the hating will be enough to nourish you."
William Faulkner - 'Absalom, Absalom!'

[lunatica]

130. Faulkner knew his South!

It seems not to have changed a whole lot. They’re still fighting the Civil War which is a prime example.

[Collimator]

122. Human beings are complex.

That is all there is to it. There are some people who desperately want the world to be simple. They want a world divided into "us" and "them". They gravitate to a leader who makes things simple for them.

Others are cynical and selfish. They have sense of what is really happening in the world, but their own comfort is their supreme motivation.

Then there are some people who are so twisted up inside that cruelty is the only thing that makes them feel alive. Power over others is their desperate need because there is a shriveled little worm of powerlessness hidden deep in their psyche. They will never look that deeply into themselves, and that allows them to not really look at the people they are hurting.

[Ponietz]

126. Recommended

When they go low, we should “do what is necessary”.
The OP furthers that view.

[wasupaloopa]

127. I have relatives who are poor trump supporters.

There are not garbage people.

I wish we would stop posting these tribal OP’s

[PatrickforO]

133. Many are imbalanced, bitter, angry and focus this anger on hate of minorities.

There's a book called 'Dying of Whiteness.' It elaborates on this - the nightmare of white people willing to die of easily treatable conditions because they don't want blacks to also have insurance coverage. The horror of people dying in mass shootings because white people don't feel comfortable with black people anywhere nearby unless they (the white people) are heavily armed.

Sadly, Recursion is right probably 80% of the time on this one. Maybe more.

[GoneOffShore]

134. Mel Brooks had it right