22 people have been hospitalized with vaping-linked breathing problems.

[SunSeeker]

Because the Food and Drug Administration does not require e-cigarette manufacturers to list all of their ingredients on product labels, scientists have resorted to taking the devices into the lab to figure out the ingredients.

One recent study from Yale University identified chemicals called acetals in some Juul e-cigarette liquids. Those chemicals, the researchers said, may be especially irritating to the lungs and cause damage when inhaled.

Teen lungs are not fully developed, which could potentially make them more vulnerable to the chemicals found in e-cigarettes.

"The aerosol has heavy metals and ultrafine toxic particles that penetrate deep into the lungs," Sadreameli said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/22-people-have-been-hospitalized-vaping-linked-breathing-problems-doctors-n1041851

This is really frightening. So many kids in my son's high school vape. It's advertised as the "safe" way to "smoke" without the smelly smoke. These ads are a fraud and should be illegal.

[mr_lebowski]

1. Very unlike the healthful smoke that smoldering tobacco emanates lol ...

'Heavy Metals'?

Yeah, I'm sure the Juul people are choosing to flavor their products with like lead and mercury-based flavorings, just for fun.

From the article

It's unclear exactly what the patients — many of whom are young adults — had been inhaling or what type of devices they were using. Nor do doctors know where they had purchased the devices or e-liquids.

Some patients said they'd used e-cigarette devices to inhale both nicotine and THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana.

"We know there are certain characteristics in common with these cases, but we have not been able to get to the bottom of exactly what aspect of the vaping habit or product or solvent or oil is causing the injury," said Dr. Emily Chapman, chief medical officer for Children's Minnesota, a pediatric health system headquartered in Minneapolis.

In other words, we don't know squat ... but let's get a Pediatric doctor on the record ... cause that's extra scary-sounding, since it's like a BABY doctor!

I also like this one:

"Teen lungs are not fully developed, which could potentially make them more vulnerable to the chemicals found in e-cigarettes. "

In other words we have no idea whether 'not fully developed' is potentially a disadvantage ... or potentially an advantage ... in terms of harm caused, but ... let's scare people anyway with our verbiage! After all it just 'makes sense' ... 'not fully developed' ... must be more vulnerable! OTOH, could be the exact opposite.

Oh, and don't miss this part:

His brother, Patrick DeGrave, said that Nelson bought his vape cartridge off the street, not from a reputable shop.

In other words, in the premier case in the article ... dude bought his shit from a drug dealer on the street.

Lastly, the 'acetal' problem was discovered at least 5 years ago, nowadays NOBODY uses flavorings that produce acetals. That was a legit scare, but caught/nipped in the bud and any remotely reputable e-juice provider has 0 juices in their line that can produce acetals.

[SunSeeker]

2. Kids are inhaling this shit, and we don't know what's in it.

But we do know people are getting put in the hospital after vaping.

One guy had to be put in a medically induced coma.

Chapman told NBC News that the four teens admitted to Children's Minnesota all arrived with what doctors originally thought was a bad respiratory infection, like pneumonia.

But instead of getting better with treatment, they got worse.

"They have progressed to have significant difficulty with their breathing and increasing lung distress," Chapman said. "They've ended up needing our intensive care unit and in some cases assistance with their breathing."

One such patient, Dylan Nelson, 26, of Burlington, Wisconsin, started feeling sick after taking a couple of hits from a new vape cartridge. The next morning, he went to the hospital, and his symptoms got progressively worse throughout the day.

By nightfall, his lungs were filling with fluid and doctors had to put him into a medically induced coma. He has since been discharged from the hospital and is recovering slowly.

No, they don't put harmful chemicals in there "just for fun." They do it because they don't care. They use whatever is around, is cheap, and helps deliver their product better. They don't have to explain why because the FDA does not make vape manufacturers list their ingredients.

Of course cigarettes, over time, can be much worse for you, causing emphysema, heart disease and lung cancer. But I am unaware of a person smoking one tobacco cigarette and having their lungs fill with fluid, requiring they be put in a medically induced coma. Yes, that particular "dude" bought his vape cartridge off the street, but street vendors have no less disclosure requirements than Juul. And kids are particularly vulnerable to buying cartridges off of street vendors who use kiddie flavors, after Juul stopped selling such flavors.

Are you suggesting vaping is safe and this is all a hoax?

[pandr32]

6. Good response!

[mr_lebowski]

10. First off ...

This is a localized cluster, although 10's of Millions worldwide are vaping. And mostly kids are being affected in this case, apparently.

This is what's called 'bunk shit going around'.

The vendor(s) responsible are probably selling something they're calling 'weed' type stuff. This is why they're having trouble tracking down what happened, the kids having the problems aren't copping to the doctors that they thought they were buying illegal drugs off the street.

Secondly, you really think a huge corporation with legal liabilities is going to be as careless as a street vendor, and are just going to use 'whatever's cheapest'? C'mon now

Thirdly, my juice says what's in it to the same degree food has to: 80% Vegetable Glycerin, 20% Propylene Glycol, Nicotine, Natural and Artificial Flavors.

They're all Rx or Food-Grade ingredients. Would I like more detail on the flavorings? YES. But even if I knew more about 'names' I wouldn't know if they're harmful to put in my lungs anyways.

Fourthly, not really sure I buy this 'the kids are off to the streets to buy their kiddie flavors cause Juul cut 'em off' storyline. You have evidence of this? Juul is sold in stores that won't allow you to buy it unless you're 18, plus it's an EXTREMELY expensive way to vape relative to other avenues.

And no, I'm not saying it's a 'hoax', I'm saying ... there's some bunk shit going around that area. If it was just 'vaping' that was the problem this would breaking out ALL OVER THE WORLD.

[SunSeeker]

11. Here's a link for ya...

Juul-alikes’ Are Filling Shelves With Sweet, Teen-Friendly Nicotine Flavors

The purveyors of Strawberry Milk, Peach Madness and Froopy (tastes like Froot Loops) e-cigarette pods are having a very good year.

After Juul Labs, under pressure from the Food and Drug Administration, stopped selling most of its hugely popular flavored nicotine pods in stores last fall, upstart competitors swooped in to grab the shelf space. Trumpeting their own fruity and candy-flavored pods as compatible with Juul devices, they have seen their sales soar.

The proliferation of “Juul-alikes” is not only complicating Juul’s efforts to clean up its tarnished image, but also shows just how entrenched the youth vaping problem has become and that voluntary measures are unlikely to solve it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/health/juul-flavors-nicotine.html

They are cynically targeting kids. And this shit has addictive nicotine in it, which is definitely bad for you. Spare me the eye roll. Maybe you don't give a shit, but I have a 15 year old, and I care about others' kids too.

[mr_lebowski]

15. You are contradicting your original point ...

This is talking about shelf-space in stores ... stores that disallow sales to minors. It's not talking about 'street vendors'.

Just because the NY Times article chose to hype 'teen-friendly flavors' ... doesn't make it so. I'd have to see proof that they're 'cynically targeting minors'. Cause believe it or not, ADULTS like fruit flavors and sweet-tasting things too.

It's true ... not all adults favor some totally fake 'tobacco-flavored' e-juice, that actually tastes NOTHING like a real cigarette anyway, nor is it only 'kids' who want something that actually tastes pleasant.

I'm 52 and I vape a juice called Zombified which is a combination of various fruits like strawberry and apple. Probably 95% of adults who vape use juices that don't pretend (in terrible fashion) to be tobacco (basically shit) flavored. Amazing, yeah?

I notice you ignored the rest of my points

[Mariana]

28. Funny how these folks don't freak out about flavored alcoholic beverages

and demand they be eliminated because kids like them. Why is that, I wonder?

I'm 53 and I'm vaping a combination of chocolate and peanut butter flavored liquids. Good stuff.

[mr_lebowski]

30. Might it be because they enjoy pleasant-tasting alcoholic beverages, but don't enjoy nicotine?

Naaaah ... couldn't be that

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

33. Might it be that as bad as alcohol can be

cigarettes or smoking/vaping in any form is incredibly awful.

A recent update shows that 2/3 of smokers die from the effects of smoking.

[mr_lebowski]

40. And what percent of people who vape die from the effects of vaping?

At this moment, AFAIK, zero studies have shown that vaping will kill you.

There's actually no reason to even refer to vaping in this manner: "smoking/vaping in any form is incredibly awful".

You're lumping them together in an arbitrary fashion simply because both deliver nicotine and sort-of look alike. Well, breathing and smoking look alike as well. And inhaling the smoke from burning tobacco delivers 1000's of other chemicals, particulates, and known carcinogens ... NOT present in vapor products.

It may be shown someday that the two actions are found to have similar effects, but as it stands now ... there's really no such evidence. You don't know that vaping is 'incredibly awful', health-wise ... at all. You just 'imagine it must be, just cause'.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

47. We don't know yet, because vaping has

not been around very long.

It took many decades for people to understand that smoking kills.

Oh, and these people hospitalized with vape-connecting lung issues? It's just the start. That isn't my imagination.

[Thekaspervote]

89. Yes there is scientific evidence of just how dangerous vaping is. It's called popcorn lung

https://www.lung.org/about-us/blog/2016/07/popcorn-lung-risk-ecigs.html

[Mariana]

96. Scientific evidence:

Does vaping cause Popcorn Lung? No. There’s no good evidence that e-cigarettes could cause the lung condition called popcorn lung. There’s been no cases of popcorn lung reported in people who use e-cigarettes.

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/cancer-controversies/does-vaping-cause-popcorn-lung

Clearing up some myths around e-cigarettes. One of the most commonly held concerns is that e-cigarettes might cause ‘popcorn lung’.
...
It (diacetyl) had been detected in some e-liquid flavourings in the past, but at levels hundreds of times lower than in cigarette smoke. Even at these levels, smoking is not a major risk factor for this rare disease.

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/20/clearing-up-some-myths-around-e-cigarettes/

[mr_lebowski]

100. Yes, specifically linked to acetals ... I've discussed above. Flavorings producing acetals are no

longer used. It was an unfortunate accident.

It's not linked to fundamentals of vaping (vegetable glycerin, nicotine, and optional propylene glycol), it's just an example of chemical that you can't allow to be produced in the process by using certain flavoring chemicals.

Flavorings need to be studied much more closely, of this I'm sure can both agree.

[Mariana]

41. Smoking and vaping are very different things.

It's incredibly dishonest to try to pretend that statistics about the effects of smoking apply equally to vaping.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

49. What's dishonest is to try to pretend that vaping

is completely benign. Especially now that we've learned of 22 hospitalized with lung issues connected to the vaping. Undoubtedly that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Mariana]

56. No one has said that vaping is completely benign.

The only thing that has been said, is that it's much less dangerous than smoking.

[raccoon]

63. And sometimes the thing blows up in the vaper's face. NT

[mr_lebowski]

86. But we DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY VAPED, PO.

Imagine if the story was this:

"22 youths rolled up a completely unknown substance that they purchased on the street, with unknown intent as to what they thought they were buying, into rolling papers, lit the substance on fire, and inhaled the contents ... they are now hospitalized"

Would you then turn around and go "SEE! SMOKING MARLBORO'S PUTS CHILDREN IN THE HOSPITAL WITH NEAR-DEATH CONDITIONS!!!1!"

No?

Then why are you doing literally that exact same thing in this case?

[virgogal]

46. And what do non smokers die from,non-smoking?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

48. All kinds of wonderful things.

But they generally don't get a lot of bypass surgery, or wind up on oxygen, or with lung cancer. While a relatively small percentage of smokers get lung cancer, 85% of all lung cancer is in smokers. How bizarre is that?

Yeah, everyone dies. But as the doctor told Bad Blake in the book Crazy Heart (and I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book handy), "Go ahead and smoke. It's up to you. But it will cut your life short. And it's not as though you'll simply keel over some years earlier than otherwise. You'll have lots of health consequences and a reduced quality of life along the way."

[virgogal]

58. Guess the doc was wrong-I smoke,have a good quality life,and will be 85 next week. Genes matter.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

61. You do understand how phenomenally lucky you are?

How unusual this is?

Everyone I know who has smoked has had various health compromises, some a lot worse than others.

Yeah, genes matter, but so does exactly what you put into your body.

[virgogal]

27. The kids buy them by choice......and in spite of what caring parents tell them.

Cigarette companies used to target kids too.Beer drinkers are advertised as cool.

[mr_lebowski]

35. And so do the vast majority of adults (buy them)

Let me clue you in to something ... there's NO vaping product that 'tastes' like burning tobacco. It's just not possible to replicate the experience. Supposed 'tobacco-flavored' vape juices are, almost exclusively ... HORRIBLE tasting.

If you cannot even begin to actually replicate the experience that the 'smoker' is familiar with, it only makes sense to provide products that are pleasing in another sense. A nice pleasant fruit, candy, or dessert like flavor is the easiest to reproduce, and most likely to be universally appealing ... among people, PERIOD.

If you're going to force companies to produce vape flavors that taste WORSE than cigarettes, you're not going get many adult smokers to switch to your products. And the way the data looks right now, we DO WANT smokers to switch, as a society.

[Locrian]

53. are you freakin serious?

>>Secondly, you really think a huge corporation with legal liabilities is going to be as careless as a street vendor, and are just going to use 'whatever's cheapest'? C'mon now

How long did they continue to claim cigarette smoking was safe?

[mr_lebowski]

54. They didn't much choice of ingredients did they now?

Burning tobacco is toxic to inhale, and there was never any getting around it.

If you really think a huge corporation with legal liabilities is going to be as careless as fly-by-night street vendor when it comes to ingredients they put by choice in their products, when safe alternatives are available, I don't know what to tell you, other than that I strongly disagree.

There's no evidence that Juul or anyone else making vape products is carelessly including heavy metals in their products as a cost-saving measure, just because 'they don't have to divulge ingredients', so they're therefore throwing caution to the wind and poisoning the public for a few extra bucks.

This accusation is made-up bullshit, basically.

And we'll see whether this particular problem is traced to a major manufacturer ... I'll give you 10-1 odds ... It's not. Otherwise it wouldn't be localized like this.

[Locrian]

104. oh ffs....

Tobacoo companies are LEGENDARY for adding any and all crap to the "product"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-components/how-cigarettes-are-made-and-how-you-can-make-plan-quit

Not only are chemicals created in the processing and the burning of tobacco filler, but manufacturers may also add hundreds of ingredients to a cigarette to make smoking more appealing and mask the harsh flavor and sensation of smoke. Flavor additives like menthol and sugar may be added to cigarettes to change the taste of smoke and make it easier to inhale. These and other additives may make cigarette smoke more palatable, but no less harmful. Cigarettes that are less harsh and easier to inhale may appeal to new smokers, especially adolescents, because they are easier to smoke.4

Other chemicals may also be added to tobacco in an effort to optimize nicotine delivery and lung absorption. Ammonia—a chemical found in cleaning products—and other additives may be added to cigarette tobacco and may increase nicotine absorption, making cigarettes more addictive. Some additives are bronchodilators that can open the lungs and increase the amount of dangerous chemicals that are absorbed.

[mr_lebowski]

108. You really think I don't know all that? Me? FFS ...

You're missing my point.

Cigarette makers had no choice but to put out a toxic product, because even W/O the infamous additives you speak of, burning tobacco is still extremely unhealthy to inhale.

And despite all that, remind when the last time that a cig company just put additives in their cigarettes that put 20+ people (mostly young people) in the hospital with acute respiratory failure-type effects?

The makers of vape products are starting with ingredients with little to no toxicity/proven detrimental health effects. On top of that, the food-grade flavorings they use are DIRT CHEAP to begin with, and people have been vaping them for 10 years at this point. It would be incredibly stupid of any vape product maker to just randomly start using something in their product that suddenly puts them at great risk for damages.

There's zero evidence that current problem has anything to do with an additive added by a major manufacturer in order save a few bucks/increase profits, which is the initial claim/insinuation I took issue with to start.

And there's certainly no evidence they're introducing toxic heavy metals to their products in order to save a few bucks. Why make your product TOXIC, when you absolutely do not have to? The flavorings are probably 1% at MOST ... of the cost of making product to begin with.

[raccoon]

65. Thank you. Nt

[SoCalNative]

34. This is why the flavors

other than tobacco and menthol need to be banned. And fwiw, it;s likely NOT the JUUL pods, it's the "compatible" ones manufactured in all sorts of flavors and made who knows where.

[mr_lebowski]

83. There's no evidence of anything you're saying ... the ONE person who we know where they got their

juice ... bought it from someone ON THE STREET.

We don't know if what they bought is even 'compatible' with JUUL, let alone that it's a one of 'all sorts of flavors'. JUUL is just brought up outta nowhere in this story. I've been vaping for 6 years ... don't even really know what JUUL is, except that it's in commercials.

From what's in this article, we really don't know shit about what happened, SoCal, all due respect.

For all you know, these kids bought what they THOUGHT was Pot, Meth, Crack, Opium, LSD, or WHATEVER-containing ... 'cartridges' ... from some fucking scam-artist drug dealing outfit, and this whole problem could very well have absolutely to do with JUUL, 'compatible cartridges', 'all sorts of flavors', or indeed, even 'Vaping Nicotine' in any way, shape or form.

But you appear to have convinced yourself ... it must. Why is that?

[colorado_ufo]

3. Pediatric doctors treat up to age 18.

They are not only "baby doctors."

[Ilsa]

5. Actually, to age 21, according to my

Insurance company. There is also a philosophy that children do not reach adulthood until age 25-ish, because the brain's executive functions are still developing.

[mr_lebowski]

24. Fair enough ... but what do most people think of when they read 'pediatric'?

It's all part and parcel of the shameless scare tactics deployed in the article overall, IMHO.

It contributes to the 'vaping is POISONING OUR BABIES!' vibe.

This case is almost surely some bunk shit in a particular geographic area, probably kids trying to buy illegal drugs off the street that just happen to be able to be consumed by a vaping-style method.

It's much like bashing the use of the hypodermic needle overall because junkies OD via hypodermic needles!!1!!

It's almost certainly NOTHING TO DO with the sort of vaping that law-abiding adult citizens are doing.

[emmaverybo]

75. +1000

[SunSeeker]

79. Vaping IS poisoning our kids.

Nicotine is addictive as heroin.

Self-administration studies with animals are much more extensive and have also been reviewed in detail elsewhere. In brief, drug self-administration studies in animals in the 1960s showed that a range of drugs including opioids, amphetamines, barbiturates, certain organic solvents, alcohol, cocaine, and nicotine were self-administered. All of these drugs were found to maintain powerful chains of drug-seeking behavior, even when insufficient drug was taken to produce a clinically significant degree of physical dependence. Drugs that did not serve as reinforcers in these studies included caffeine…” [emphasis added, citations deleted]

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/nicotine-not-caffeine

Nicotine is one of the most toxic of all poisons. It can rewire the brain, particularly vulnerable in the developing years, from adolescence to mid-twenties. ... Nicotine changes the teen brain and affects attention, learning, and memory.
...
Modern devices can have up to 6x the nicotine concentration of first generation e-cigs, putting kids at risk of not only a nicotine addiction, but substance addiction of all kinds.

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/while-fda-dithers-california-continues-take-e-cigs-head-nicotine-brain-poison

Many teens think that using e-cigarettes is safer, however, they still contain high levels of nicotine. The brand JUUL packs perhaps the most potent dose: one pod contains roughly 20 cigarettes worth of nicotine and the product claims to deliver the addictive substance nearly three times faster than other e-cigarettes.
...
Nicotine is extremely addictive and, when used regularly, your body and mind learn to expect a certain amount of nicotine each day—and if it doesn't get it, withdrawal can be intense. You can quickly build a tolerance to nicotine, needing more to reach the desired effect. This is one reason why it's so hard (but not impossible) to quit smoking.

https://www.verywellmind.com/nicotine-addiction-101-2825018

[mr_lebowski]

81. Opioids are the most addictive thing there is, but guess what? THEY'RE NOT POISONOUS.

Like, at all. Sure, you can OD on them. But they won't harm your organs or tissues as long as you don't overdose. They are NON-TOXIC. Literally.

In fact, by conflating 'poison' and 'dependency-producing', you're confusing two totally different concepts.

Alcohol ... is literally poison. Do you take it?

And trust me, I've kicked both nicotine and opioids ... I'm talking HARD CORE opioids.

There's not even a comparison in the withdrawal effects.

Nicotine is hard to quit because nicotine is a) legal, b) easily procured, and c) doesn't completely fuck up your life ... in the hugely obvious way that opioid addiction does. It doesn't wind you up in jail. You don't have to doctor-shop or buy dope on the streets. You're never going to have a $100/day nicotine habit. ETC ETC ETC.

BTW, this UCSF doctor your quoting? I don't even have to OPEN these articles to know EXACTLY who this doctor is that's writing this crap.

I'm going to bet $$$ to donuts that this article you're quoting is written by Dr. Stanton Glantz, am I right? I've not even looked, swear to Dog.

He's been one-man anti-vape crusader for almost 10 years now.

He's literally the only doctor in the world who writes shit like this.

Am I right?

[SunSeeker]

88. If you're "taking HARD CORE opioids," I suggest you go to bed. nt

[mr_lebowski]

99. Way to avoid my points again, SS ...

I didn't say I am, I said I've WITHDRAWN from them BEFORE. In my lifetime.

Anyways, good talk

[UniteFightBack]

7. +1000 nt

[SunSeeker]

8. Do you think vaping is safe?

Do you think these stories about vaping hurting people are a hoax?

[Mariana]

9. I think it's very risky to buy vape fluid or cartridges off the street

as the young man written about in the article did. I would strongly recommend against buying any drugs, in any form, off the street.

[SunSeeker]

12. How about answering my question?

Do you think vaping is safe?

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. It isn't a particularly useful or informative question.

Is it safe? Of course not. You're inhaling shit. Vaping vs. not vaping, it is clear which of the two is safer.

But that's not the arithmetic affecting most people who vape. The math is vaping vs. smoking, in which case vaping is almost certainly safer. If people are going to use nicotine—and it seems like they goddamned well are—it is preferable they do so through the safest route possible, yes?

[SunSeeker]

14. You're inhaling NICOTINE and "shit," as you acknowledge.

It's marketed to kids. That has to stop.

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. No one here is suggesting it should be marketed to children.

[Mariana]

21. Please show us an ad which shows vaping being marketed to kids.

Some people keep claiming this, but they always decline to provide any evidence. Federal law prohibits selling vaping products to children.

[SunSeeker]

43. Here's a link for ya...

Plenty at this link:

https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/blog/2014_06_11_ecigarettes

Also, this:

Juul-alikes’ Are Filling Shelves With Sweet, Teen-Friendly Nicotine Flavors

The purveyors of Strawberry Milk, Peach Madness and Froopy (tastes like Froot Loops) e-cigarette pods are having a very good year.

After Juul Labs, under pressure from the Food and Drug Administration, stopped selling most of its hugely popular flavored nicotine pods in stores last fall, upstart competitors swooped in to grab the shelf space. Trumpeting their own fruity and candy-flavored pods as compatible with Juul devices, they have seen their sales soar.

The proliferation of “Juul-alikes” is not only complicating Juul’s efforts to clean up its tarnished image, but also shows just how entrenched the youth vaping problem has become and that voluntary measures are unlikely to solve it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/health/juul-flavors-nicotine.html

[Mariana]

57. So, you object to the names of the flavors? nt?

[SunSeeker]

59. Please be serious. Bubblegum flavor is clearly a ploy to entice kids/teens. nt

[mr_lebowski]

78. I was not even a bit interested in 'bubblegum' anymore once I hit about 12 years old ...

Some people, including adults, however, do like the flavor of 'bubblegum'.

You know what flavor I most liked at 12? I liked Menthol/Eucalyptus. Cough drops was my favorite flavor. I'd eat plain Halls or Vicks cough drops ... like candy. Ricola, too. Literally I used my own money to buy them instead of candy.

It's funny though, cause the one 'flavor' you zealots tend to be 'okay with' ... is menthol.

Just because a flavor is called bubblegum is NOT proof (seriously) that kids/teens are being targeted.

Almost vape juice maker makes an 'apple pie' and 'chocolate cake' and 'cola' and 'jolly rancher', etc, etc, etc, I could go on and on. And I go into vape shops all the time, and I see other ADULTS ... purchasing these types of juice flavors.

Anything you pick as 'sweet/fruity/candy' flavor can be SAID to be 'appealing to teens'.

And at the same time, it's appealing to adults as well.

Seriously.

[SunSeeker]

80. This isn't about you. This is about our kids.

The craven marketing of vaping to our kids has to stop. It is poisoning our kids.

[mr_lebowski]

82. Oh, it absolutely IS about me. I'd be smoking if it weren't for vaping.

Therefore, I don't want any nanny-state nonsense messing with my shit.

Oh, and I don't have kids.

And your kids ... are your responsibility. If they're going to go vape just because 'bubblegum flavor' exists? I'm sorry to hear that. I hope there's something you can do to stop it. I don't support kids taking up vaping whatsoever!

Also this 'craven marketing' exists mainly in your head, because you've decided that 'pleasant flavors' only appeal to young people. But you're WRONG about this, which means we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this subject.

But you do you, and I'll do me

[SunSeeker]

87. No one is trying to stop you from vaping.

I did not say my son was your responsibility. I am criticizing vaping manufacturers, not people who vape. No one is arguing vaping should not be marketed to older smokers who are already addicted to nicotine. This is about getting the word out about the dangers of vaping to teens and young people. Maybe you don't care about our kids getting poisoned by vaping, but I and a lot of other folks do.

I'm not wrong about the craven marketing aimed at kids. Its not "just in my head." A team of researchers studied Juul’s marketing campaign between the product's launch in 2015 and fall 2018. They looked at thousands of Instagram posts, emails, and ads, and concluded Juul’s marketing “was patently youth-oriented.”
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/25/18194953/vape-juul-e-cigarette-marketing

[raccoon]

16. Do people HAVE TO either smoke or vape? nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

19. No.

In the sense that people don't HAVE to drink alcohol. But they do. And there's little we can do to actually stop them. So as long as they're intent on hurting themselves, it remains preferable from both a moral/ethical and public health perspective that they go with the least damaging option available to them.

[mr_lebowski]

26. Same calculus we make with Subs/Buprenorphine and/or Methadone ...

Better to have people who are GOING to use opioids to be using ones that are long-acting/cheap/legal/less harmful, that allow them lead a normal life instead of having to cop high-priced drugs on the street every 6 hours, turning to crime, risking jail, etc.

It's called harm-reduction, and there's scarcely a medical expert around these days that doesn't firmly believe in its general logic.

[emmaverybo]

84. Puritanism has prevailed for decades in America's approach to addiction treatment so that the goal

has been total abstinence.

As more evidence-based approaches have been embraced, based on scientific research and studies, harm reduction is now a recognized treatment option, not only for drug addiction, but also alcohol and cigarettes. This approach does not discourage a patient from moving towards and finally reaching abstinence, if that is what the patient chooses and feels ready for.

Nicotine is not a benign substance. But as delivered in gum and inhalers, it seems less harmful than when in the form of tobacco, lit and inhaled as a cigarette, containing a number of other more toxic substances, and carbon monoxide, which cause the majority of long-term damage and disease.

Not to say e-cigarette use is benign.

However, after the many years that people have been vaping, using a wide variety of delivery systems and fill methods, I would think by now many more e-cigarette smokers would be showing serious damage as did people who smoked clove cigarettes under the mistaken idea these were safer than tobacco smokes,

E-cigarettes and their use need much more study, and then regulation. Like cigarettes, their advertisement and sales should be restricted. Once safety has been determined, prescribing them for smoking cessation seems a good way to go.

Yes, their effectiveness as a smoking substitute and in moving people off cigarettes would have to be determined. While we wait on their getting medical approval, several steps can be taken to keep them from teens, educate teens about misuse and dangers, and if flavored e-liquid causes health problems, ban its sale. As others have said, it was possible the teens spiked the e-liquid or cartridges, were vaping something else contaminated and laced; otherwise, what happened to them would be happening on a larger scale.

[mr_lebowski]

85. Agree w/everything you've said :) (nt)

[Mariana]

98. The article in the OP doesn't even claim that vaping caused the illnesses.

It only says the 22 people vaped before they got sick, and the doctors interviewed clearly say they don't know much else. We aren't told what products the victims were using, or what the ingredients were. The story describes one man who bought his vape cartridge illegally off the street. There's very little there in the way of actual information.

[coti]

36. Do teenagers HAVE to have sex?

No.

Are they gonna? Yeah. So you give them condoms.

It's the same harm-reduction approach.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

51. For what it's worth,

Teens are having sex at far lower rates than teens used to.

[coti]

67. Indeed, they are also smoking cigarettes a lot less.

In part thanks to vaping.

[raccoon]

64. Sex is an instinct. Smoking/vaping isn't.

I don’t believe vaping is as harmless as those who are making money off of it would have us believe.

Same as with cigarettes and leaded gasoline.

[coti]

68. "Instinct" or otherwise makes no difference, and vaping isn't harmless, just way, way, less harmful

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

70. We don't really know that vaping is way, way less harmful

than cigarettes.

Vaping has been around, how long? The bad effects of smoking tend to take decades to show up. People started vaping less than two decades ago. Just give it time. Two or three decades from now people will be going, "OMG! I HAD NO IDEA VAPING COULD POSSIBLY BE BAD FOR YOU!!" And meanwhile, all along, some of us have been saying, yeah, it's going to be bad for you.

I mean, it might be so much less harmful than regular smoking that only 1/3 of vapors will die from vaping, compared to 2/3 of smokers who die from smoking. Wow. Isn't that great?

[coti]

106. It sounds like you're saying reducing deaths caused by smoking by 50% would be insignificant

Just assuming the numbers you pulled out of your butt are right (which they aren't).

As I said before, just ask anyone who has switched to vaping from smoking full-time how they feel. They'll let you know the difference, and it's huge. Frankly, the difference is obvious- just as it was obvious that inhaling full-on tobacco smoke into your lungs was absolutely horrible for you since the very beginning, it's equally obvious that vaping is much, much less harmful than tobacco smoke. No, I'm not saying harmless. But, when given the alternative, it's a clear net positive.

[flotsam]

31. No-I think they are about extremists...

If you follow stories about, say surfers, you will read mostly about people riding monster waves and how dangerous that is. In cars it is about 300 mph dragsters and what happens when things go wrong. But in the real world millions of surfers ride normal waves and millions of racers modify their cars and race without crashing or being killed. People injured by vapes for the most part either buy unknown shit on the street or use "modified" vapes that have the safeties removed. Any vape device without safeties says so on the sales site. Most e-cigs and vape machines have a 10 second safety to prevent overheating and battery explosion. To buy one without safeties? Yep-they will tell you they have been disabled.

Juul may attract youth and a pox on them for it-I assure you no mature user buys them. But so long as you let the industry be smeared you will denigrate a valid method of reducing the damage done to the nicotine addicted.

[LuckyCharms]

32. I think it is safe. So do each of my doctors.

6 years vaping after quitting smoking. No lung effects, no coughing at all, lowered blood pressure, can walk a hilly 7 miles without much effort, no bad smell.

[coti]

39. It is clearly much, much safer than tobacco.

Ask anyone about the effects on their body after switching to vaping from tobacco. Vastly clearer lungs, stronger muscles, less to no coughing, more energy, etc.

[SunSeeker]

44. Did your doctor actually say it's "safe"? I imagine if you're already addicted to nicotine...

...the risks associated with vaping as opposed to cigarettes are less. But I can't imagine any health care professional saying vaping is safe.

[LuckyCharms]

50. "It won't hurt you"

"The harm comes with the combustion with cigarettes. If you don't combust, you won't harm yourself. Keep up the good work and stay off the cigs".

[SunSeeker]

55. Nicotine is harmful. Vaping definitely hurts kids by getting them hooked on nicotine.

It is absolutely false to say vaping is safe. Maybe safer than cigarettes for a nicotine addicted smoker, but not safe. We don't even know what ingredients are in the cartridges, other than nicotine, which we know is bad for you.  Nicotine is associated with cardiovascular disease, possible birth defects, and poisoning. That's on top of the fact that E-cigarette vapor potentially contains harmful chemicals not found in tobacco smoke.

[LuckyCharms]

60. I'll take the advice of my doctors. You know, the entire life of a person

must be looked at before assessing actual risk to that person, right?

My doctors read studies and news articles as well.

Also, I know exactly what is in my vape juice because I make my own. I know more about vaping than is found in the article you cited which doesn't really say much of anything at all.

I find that the biggest problem with ADULT vaping is people who can't stand the fact that the person doing the vaping is in their view "a low life smoker" who is hooked on nicotine, because vaping looks like smoking. When in fact vaping does not equal smoking just like a piece of wood does not equal a car alternator.

I'm curious why you are not mentioning the harm reduction, or perhaps even harm elimination that ADULT smokers gain from vaping vs. smoking? Do you not understand that patches or nicotine gum are missing the one factor that smokers need to quit? That factor is the learned hand to mouth movement.

I agree that children should not vape, but adults? They should be congratulated, not scorned. I view the people who scorn them in public as nothing more than pearl clutchers who can't stand to see something that mimics smoking, because "those filthy smokers don't deserve to be in the same space as them".

And as far as your OP...I can't get real excited about it until it says something more. Also, if you buy anything off the street, you're going to have a bad time.

So I'll continue vaping, and I'll shoot a quick grin to the people who faint when they see it. I'll keep a look out for a post which addresses alcohol related deaths, or texting/automobile related deaths. I'm pretty sure no one has died from vaping to date.

[Mariana]

72. Some people hate smokers - and former smokers, too.

They can't stand the idea that smokers are quitting painlessly with e-cigs, and in fact many enjoy vaping better than they ever liked smoking. Sure, these people want smokers to quit, as long as they're miserable when they do it. Seeing a former smoker enjoying a vape just makes them just seethe with rage.

I remember when the problem was secondhand smoke, which is legitimate since it really does affect other people. That's all been forgotten, I guess, and now its OMG nicotine is bad bad bad! I've even seen people claim to believe nicotine causes cancer. What idiocy.

And then people get worked up over crap like the story in the OP, which says a lot of nothing.

[SunSeeker]

77. OFFS, I don't hate current or former smokers. I just don't want vaping poisoning our kids.

I never said nicotine causes cancer, How about addressing what nicotine has been shown to do?

Nicotine is addictive as heroin.

Self-administration studies with animals are much more extensive and have also been reviewed in detail elsewhere. In brief, drug self-administration studies in animals in the 1960s showed that a range of drugs including opioids, amphetamines, barbiturates, certain organic solvents, alcohol, cocaine, and nicotine were self-administered. All of these drugs were found to maintain powerful chains of drug-seeking behavior, even when insufficient drug was taken to produce a clinically significant degree of physical dependence. Drugs that did not serve as reinforcers in these studies included caffeine…” [emphasis added, citations deleted]

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/nicotine-not-caffeine

Nicotine is one of the most toxic of all poisons. It can rewire the brain, particularly vulnerable in the developing years, from adolescence to mid-twenties. ... Nicotine changes the teen brain and affects attention, learning, and memory.
...
Modern devices can have up to 6x the nicotine concentration of first generation e-cigs, putting kids at risk of not only a nicotine addiction, but substance addiction of all kinds.

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/while-fda-dithers-california-continues-take-e-cigs-head-nicotine-brain-poison

Many teens think that using e-cigarettes is safer, however, they still contain high levels of nicotine. The brand JUUL packs perhaps the most potent dose: one pod contains roughly 20 cigarettes worth of nicotine and the product claims to deliver the addictive substance nearly three times faster than other e-cigarettes.
...
Nicotine is extremely addictive and, when used regularly, your body and mind learn to expect a certain amount of nicotine each day—and if it doesn't get it, withdrawal can be intense. You can quickly build a tolerance to nicotine, needing more to reach the desired effect. This is one reason why it's so hard (but not impossible) to quit smoking.

https://www.verywellmind.com/nicotine-addiction-101-2825018

Sure, if you're ALREADY addicted to nicotine from smoking, and you're over 25, it probably makes sense to switch to vaping if you can't kick the nicotine addition. It certainly smells better and you're not inhaling all that tar and other chemicals from burning cigarettes. But you're still inhaling a highly addictive poison. This OP is about one of the dangers of vaping, which landed 22 young people in the hospital. It is not a "lot of nothing" if you care about kids.

[Mariana]

95. Selling vaping products to children is already illegal under federal law.

It's also prohibited by state law in every state except, I think, Pennsylvania.

The article linked in the OP does not claim that vaping landed 22 young people in the hospital. The doctors interviewed clearly say they don't know what caused these people to be sick. They know all of them vaped, so they're investigating whether the vapes caused the illnesses.

[SunSeeker]

97. Most states allow sales to teens. Vaping risks to those under 25 are not well known.

The vast majority of states allow sales of vape products to 18 and 19 year olds. https://vaping360.com/rules-laws/legal-age-to-vape/ And many vape manufacturers continue to market to teens, using kid-friendly flavors. Many people, including teens, wrongly think it's safe for teens to vape. Word needs to get out, to counter the vape manufacturers' marketing to teens.

[Thekaspervote]

90. Be informed! Vaping is harmful

https://www.lung.org/about-us/blog/2016/07/popcorn-lung-risk-ecigs.html

[LuckyCharms]

91. I am quite informed. My flavors contain no diacetyl.

But thanks anyway.

[coti]

66. Nicotine is just a stimulant, like caffeine. nt

[SunSeeker]

74. No, not "like caffeine." Nicotine damages teen brains and is addictive as heroin, unlike caffeine.

Nicotine is not Caffeine.

Self-administration studies with animals are much more extensive and have also been reviewed in detail elsewhere. In brief, drug self-administration studies in animals in the 1960s showed that a range of drugs including opioids, amphetamines, barbiturates, certain organic solvents, alcohol, cocaine, and nicotine were self-administered. All of these drugs were found to maintain powerful chains of drug-seeking behavior, even when insufficient drug was taken to produce a clinically significant degree of physical dependence. Drugs that did not serve as reinforcers in these studies included caffeine…” [emphasis added, citations deleted]

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/nicotine-not-caffeine

Nicotine is one of the most toxic of all poisons. It can rewire the brain, particularly vulnerable in the developing years, from adolescence to mid-twenties. ... Nicotine changes the teen brain and affects attention, learning, and memory.
...
Modern devices can have up to 6x the nicotine concentration of first generation e-cigs, putting kids at risk of not only a nicotine addiction, but substance addiction of all kinds.

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/while-fda-dithers-california-continues-take-e-cigs-head-nicotine-brain-poison

Many teens think that using e-cigarettes is safer, however, they still contain high levels of nicotine. The brand JUUL packs perhaps the most potent dose: one pod contains roughly 20 cigarettes worth of nicotine and the product claims to deliver the addictive substance nearly three times faster than other e-cigarettes.
...
Nicotine is extremely addictive and, when used regularly, your body and mind learn to expect a certain amount of nicotine each day—and if it doesn't get it, withdrawal can be intense. You can quickly build a tolerance to nicotine, needing more to reach the desired effect. This is one reason why it's so hard (but not impossible) to quit smoking.

https://www.verywellmind.com/nicotine-addiction-101-2825018

[coti]

105. Your desire to villify nicotine itself, as opposed to tobacco, is misguided to say the least

In fact, many people consider nicotine to be potentially useful as a psychiatric drug, and there is belief that it might be helping to prevent Alzheimer's.

[SunSeeker]

111. I'm not trying to "vilify" nicotine. I am stating facts.

If and when nicotine is proven to help in certain treatments, then it will be good for those people who can benefit from it. Right now, it serves no benefits to kids other than getting them addicted to nicotine.

[jayfish]

101. Can You Cite A Study...

that shows nicotine to be addictive or associated with your listed miladies outside of inhaling the byproducts of it's combustion? Also, we know exactly what's in commercial grade e-liquid. Propylene glycol and/or vegetable glycerin, nicotine and, most times, flavoring. The flavorings are usually >/= 1% of a given liquids mix. Finally,we know what chemicals are created when the liquids are vaporized and they don't even come close to combusted tobacco. Where there is overlap; the amounts in vapor are negligible compared to combusted tobacco.

[SunSeeker]

112. I already did, upthread. There's the Surgeon General reports, like these:

Read Chapter 5 "Nicotine" of the 2014 Surgeon General's report. Here are the conclusions:

1. The evidence is sufficient to infer that at high-enough doses nicotine has acute toxicity.

2. The evidence is sufficient to infer that nicotine activates multiple biological pathways through which smoking increases risk for disease.

3. The evidence is sufficient to infer that nicotine exposure during fetal development, a critical window for brain development, has lasting adverse consequences for brain development.

4. The evidence is sufficient to infer that nicotine adversely affects maternal and fetal health during pregnancy, contributing to multiple adverse outcomes such as preterm delivery and stillbirth.

5. The evidence is suggestive that nicotine exposure during adolescence, a critical window for brain development, may have lasting adverse consequences for
brain development.

6. The evidence is inadequate to infer the presence or absence of a causal relationship between exposure to nicotine and risk for cancer.


(The last conclusion only relates to the direct carcinogenic effects of nicotine. Nicotine reacts with other chemicals to create tobacco specific nitrosamines, which are powerful carcinogens.)

Read what the 1988 Surgeon General's report The Health Consequences of Smoking: Nicotine Addiction, said on this point because it addressed the caffeine-nicotine comparison directly:

Most categories of drugs which have been found to cause widespread drug dependence in the nonlaboratory setting have been tested with animals and humans in laboratory settings. Results of these studies have been reviewed in detail elsewhere Several categories of drugs have been found to be self-administered by humans and animals in the laboratory settings, to meet criteria as positive reinforcers, and to exhibit orderly relations as a function of drug dose, drug pretreatment, and other factors known to affect the intake of dependence-producing drugs. These include alcohol, morphine, pentobarbital, amphetamine, cocaine, and nicotine in the forms of cigarettes and i.v. injection.

Self-administration studies with animals are much more extensive and have also been reviewed in detail elsewhere. In brief, drug self-administration studies in animals in the 1960s showed that a range of drugs including opioids, amphetamines, barbiturates, certain organic solvents, alcohol, cocaine, and nicotine were self-administered. All of these drugs were found to maintain powerful chains of drug-seeking behavior, even when insufficient drug was taken to produce a clinically significant degree of physical dependence. Drugs that did not serve as reinforcers in these studies included caffeine…” [emphasis added, citations deleted]

[UniteFightBack]

62. I think it's coming from fake carts. Most likely fake weed carts. Reputable ejuice is tested etc.

Eliquid is now coming under federal regulations. This is another reason to make weed legal so it can be regulated.

And yes vaping is safer/better than smoking traditional cigarettes.

[JCMach1]

18. They were also vaping illegal THC, cut with who knows what off of the streets

Not good...

[JCMach1]

17. Smoking ANYTHING is not safe, but do take these reports with strong caution

Where and how were these studies funded?

Big tobacco has been in a pitched war with vape companies. They want strong regulation so that only their large factories can make the product and they can keep their monopolies.

Basically, I trust almost nothing that lands in the MSM about vaping because of this UNLESS AND UNTIL complete independence of a study can be verified.


Note, in the original article the people who were getting sick were vaping and vaping THC (illegal THC bought on the streets).

[Mariana]

25. This report doesn't actually provide much in the way of facts.

Some people landed in the hospital after they vaped. The people quoted in the story don't even claim outright that the vaping actually caused the problems, because they don't know if it did. The young man in this story bought his fluid illegally off the street. It could have been contaminated with literally anything.

[flotsam]

45. You need to get this

Smoking is not vaping and vaping is not smoking.When you smoke many complex and dangerous chemicals are inhaled.When you vape a blend of two glycerines and nicotine are added to an artificial flavoring. Unlike smoking no additional chemicals are added and no complex compounds of released by ignition are involved.

[LuckyCharms]

52. +1

[Thekaspervote]

92. Yes there are dangerous compounds in them.

https://www.lung.org/about-us/blog/2016/07/popcorn-lung-risk-ecigs.html

[LuckyCharms]

93. Not if you procure quality flavorings with no diacetyl.

[flotsam]

94. There has never been a case of popcorn lung caused by vaping

The Harvard study that found diacetyl in e-liquid set off a media frenzy.

Researchers did not conclude that a diacetyl vape will cause respiratory illness. What they did suggest was that their discovery indicated a need for further study. That is a reasonable position that makes sense. We do need more study on this issue. As a vaper, this is something you certainly deserve to be aware of.

To add some perspective here, studies have shown that when diacetyl has been detected in vapor, it was measured at a high 9.0 micrograms. The diacetyl level found in tobacco smoke has been measured at 335.9 micrograms. Cigarette smoke exposes tobacco users to exponentially higher diacetyl levels than e-cigarette vapor that contains diacetyl.



https://vapingdaily.com/what-is-vaping/diacetyl-vape/

[jayfish]

103. Also,...

the vaping industry, gasp, self-regulated by virtually illuminating the use of diacetyl in inhaled vapor products. Including some of the best liquids available at the time.

[lpbk2713]

22. For info: Willie Nelson is back on the road again.

There was an OP a couple of days ago saying Willie had to cancel some engagements due to "respiratory problems". He gets knocked down now and then but eventually he bounces right back up again.

Link: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/08/12/on-the-road-again-willie-nelson-resumes-tour-announces-show-at-billy-bobs/

[mr_lebowski]

29. He gets knocked down ... but he get up again ... no they never gonna keep him down 🎶 nt

[SouthernProgressive]

23. If you are going to vape....

Don't buy your stuff off the street. Please.

[SoCalNative]

37. Exactly

I buy my JUUL pods (not aftermarket "compatible" brands) from JUUL directly or another reputable online retailer.

[Johnny2X2X]

38. Don't buy it anywhere

My good friend owned a big chain of Vaping stores, in fact his company licensed the recipes and sold the raw materials to several dozens of other vaping stores.

My buddy was a good guy, he passed away 4 years ago, but he was also a dirty businessman, he was on the phones with China every night getting barrels of ingredients shipped to his home where he would mix up new flavors in his basement for sale. He had zero training to do anything like that, if you vaped in Michigan in the last 5 years there's a 90% chance you used something he made in his basement.

This industry is not regulated enough, it's not safe yet.

[SouthernProgressive]

42. Let me add.

If your vape shop is mixing their own "in-house," don't buy it from them either.

Do your research, folks. Some vape liquid sellers are extremely transparent. They tell you exactly what is in their products and the quality controls they have in place. If someone buys a bottle of "Georges Special Juice" from the guy down the road from me then they will get what they get. I'm not kidding. The guy down the street mixing his own juices has some really "interesting" flavor names.

Of course not buying it would be the best way. As would never buying alcohol, cigarettes, cigars, HFCS, etc. If you are going to buy it, do your research. Never ever buy off the street corner.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Took a class, guy said basically

Vaping provides a moist warm environment for a lotta microbes.

[myohmy2]

71. sounds like...

...vaping is a lot like huffing...

...

[Mariana]

73. In the case of the young man in the story, that might well be true.

He bought his vape cartridge illegally off the street. It could have contained literally anything.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

76. Lungs work best with clean air.

[jayfish]

102. And Where Might That Be?

Clean air campaign: Ozone pollution ‘as bad for lungs as a packet of cigarettes a day’

Ozone air pollution could accelerate lung disease as much as smoking a packet of cigarettes a day, research suggests.

The largest study of its kind, which tracked more than 7,000 subjects for 18 years, drew a link between higher concentrations of ground-level ozone pollution, which is generated by car and industrial emissions, and faster progress of the lung disease emphysema.

The effect was seen even among those who had never smoked and could help to explain why emphysema is relatively common in non-smokers, the researchers said.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

107. a scarce commodity

The war against the EPA started with its inception.

Still, things like vaping, huffing, and smoking can't be considered healthy. Lungs have enough trouble just dealing with the soot from "clean diesel", gasoline engine exhaust, and the dust ground up and blown into the air by millions of tires scrubbing on asphault. That's in addition to the ozone pollution you point out. ( Thanks for the link! )

[fescuerescue]

109. So...Should we encourage kids to switch from vaping to cigarettes?

That way we know exactly what they are putting intn their lungs.

[SunSeeker]

110. So...No. Maybe kids should do neither. nt

[fescuerescue]

113. Obviously they shouldn't

And kids will do what they do.

But in the name of harm reduction, surely one of those methods is less harmful right?

Or is this a case where we ignore what is less harmful and just teach abstinence?

(Yes I'm having a little fun here. Surely either cigarettes or vaping is less harmful than the other as it seems unlikely that cigs are exactly as harmful as vaping)

[SunSeeker]

114. Of course cigs are more harmful, especially in the long run. That's not the point.

The point is a lot of people don't know about the risks associated with vaping. And certainly 22 people put in the hospital associated with vaping is news. Also, vaping is being marketed to our kids, getting them addicted to nicotine. Nicotine is addictive as heroin. Folks need to understand that vaping is not benign, that you're not just inhaling water vapor.