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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFor those who think Occupy Wall Street is ineffective
Since you feel OWS is doing so poorly out there, please post what you're doing that's better than what they're doing.
Thanks!
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Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)It is not a matter of whether they are doing poorly or not. I am neither anti- nor pro- at this point.
I have heard their complaints, and what they want done.
What I haven't heard is how they plan to accomplish their goals.
It is one thing to say "we want money out of politics"; it is another to lay out a plan as to how this will be achieved.
peacetalksforall
(20,291 posts)Are you not protesting in some form here on the DU?
Not all can get out on the street, but nearly all support those who do - unless any of them propose actions equal to purposeful provocateurs who are disturbing the protest and inciting the media and police and confusing the protesters.
It was plain in the beginning - Wall Street - the source of many problems.
Having no plan. but hearing what these people say is a people's movement.
Is structuring it with a hieracrchy and bringing in lawyers and money to come up with a plan the key to success and mean it will last longer than it has and can?
Wall Street is organized in their atrocities and thefts.
Maybe it isn't the time to come up with another organization and acronym.
Protest the lack of a fair mainstream media coverage so the OWS voices can be heard. The protesters are alying it out if we listen, expecially the rest of the citizens.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Just haven't been doing it lately with family issues having taken front stage. 
And until OWS came along, no one cared about the issues of the 99%. Now it's all everyone can talk about. The 1% is now a derogatory term and the 1%ers are crying about it.
OWS has been quite effective in changing the national dialog.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,316 posts)And Wall ST, the US Chamber of Commerce and the PTB were afraid of him and his message.
Fortunately for them, he screwed up his personal life He was banished along with his message of TWO AMERICAS, that is until OWS.
randome
(34,845 posts)Again, we don't need to hear how important OWS is. We just want to know what concrete steps are being taken to change the world.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Sustaining occupations in more than a hundred locations for two to three months each, bringing out tens of thousands to the largest actions = hundreds of thousands, probably millions.
However, your standard would probably disqualify every people's movement in history at the three-month point.
randome
(34,845 posts)When they try to over-run public parks and huddle together to come out with 'statements' and 'declarations', I have to wonder how they are going to get anything done.
zappaman
(20,627 posts)Take that!
randome
(34,845 posts)How about OWS making known what candidates they support and getting behind them?
zappaman
(20,627 posts)Maybe that will be the surprise this spring???
randome
(34,845 posts)zappaman
(20,627 posts)and where it is headed.
And that makes 2 more that don't say anything about HOW they are going to change anything.
Hopefully, we can get some more tomorrow?
randome
(34,845 posts)I should really pay more attention to work. Think I'll go on hiatus for a while. I'm sure that will result in happy cheers among the OWS desciples.
But don't forget: our right-wing masters expect the rest of you to carry on. (Don't let them know about Plan X.)
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)I say 'they' not 'we', because I am not a member of the OWS movement. I have not participated, nor do I intend to - until I know what their plans are, and how they intend to go about achieving the things they have said they want.
Is their plan to simply 'occupy' more parks and 'discuss' what's wrong with the world? Is their plan to become more aggressive, even violent?
I have chosen two extremes to make a point. It could, of course, be any multitude of things in between the two.
I only speak for myself. But that is my problem: I have heard what is wanted, some of which are valid points. (I say 'some' because I've heard some contradictory things from different groups in different cities). But I have yet to hear the 'how' of accomplishing what is desired.
When someone says come join us, and is asked what their plans are for accomplishing their goals, "We'll let you know eventually" is not a good enough response.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)this fact, or you are ignorant of the facts.
Please allow me to enlighten you, assuming that the latter is the case.
No offense intended, but the way we go about effectively achieving goals may be outside the box of the processes that form your ability to conceptualize. We are doing it a different way, and apparently you don't understand how this way can be effective, because it's not the way that you are familiar with.
Step 1 in the process of solving the problem that you mentioned, "we want money out of politics" is raising awareness of the problem so that enough people can become aware of the problem and want to join together in order to solve the problem. We are being tangibly very successful so far. We have widely distributed awareness of the problem of corporate personhood into the national dialogue/consciousness in a mere 3 1/2 months. It is difficult to understand how you can't see and understand this. This is not Burger King. We can't give it to you right now, and we can't give it to you your way.
The Occupy Movement is addressing our primary concern by repeatedly successfully attacking the disease that has infected the root of the tree of democracy. If you don't like the Movement, and choose to ignore the facts, there is no way I will ever be able to get you to acknowledge reality as it pertains to the Occupy Movement.
For example, conservatives choose to view Obama as a socialist. Because they want to, not because it is true in fact.
Anyway, below is a small collection of some examples of the progression of events that outlines the effectiveness of our process.
I'll begin with the original declaration of Occupy Wall Street, and end with a news story published today:
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/
Seattle City Council backs Occupy Seattle
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2011/11/14/seattle-city-council-backs-occupy-seattle/
L.A. and Occupy L.A. Agree: It’s Time to End Corporate Personhood
On December 3, just two days before Occupy L.A. was evicted by police, the General Assembly of the occupation passed a unanimous resolution calling for a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood.
Today, the City Council of Los Angeles also voted, also unanimously, for a resolution making the same appeal.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/blogs/brooke-jarvis/la-and-occupy-la-agree-its-time-to-end-corporate-personhood
Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:15 AM PST
We lobbied Congress IN PERSON to support Sen. Sanders Constitutional Amendment. This is our story
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/11/1043951/-We-lobbied-Congress-IN-PERSON-to-support-Sen-Sanders-Constitutional-Amendment-This-is-our-story
Bernie Sanders Introduces OCCUPIED Constitutional Amendment To Ban Corporate Money In Politics
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/12/08/385511/bernie-sanders-introduces-occupied-constitutional-amendment-to-ban-corporate-money-in-politics/
Can Occupy Overturn Citizens United? "Dear 99%ers..."
Nothing could enhance American democracy more than if Occupy Wall Street helped enact the 28th Constitutional Amendment to end the pretense that corporations are people who speak with money. The 99% can stop the privatization of governmen
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-green/can-occupy-overturn-citiz_b_1148032.html
Occupy Billings MT is a group of local citizens who are concerned with how corporate money and influence in politics does not make an effective democracy and does not represent people’s needs. Occupy Billings Montana was also developed in lieu of the Occupy Wall Street Movement, and is not only protesting and meeting in solidarity with groups nation-wide, but also vocalising that big business in politics affects Montana and rural communties as well as big cities.
We are from all generations, the whole political spectrum (republicans, democrats, libertarians, socialists,etc.), various ethic backgrounds, various religious and spiritual beliefs, and are all involved in various types of work.
http://occupybillingsmt.org/who-we-are/
Montana’s Supreme Court holds that Montana’s Constitution bars corporate spending…
Posted on December 31, 2011
http://www.occupywallstinfo.com/tag/elections/
Published on Wednesday, January 4, 2012 by CommonDreams.org
States Take On Citizens United
Montana legal ruling a possible game-changer for states; California lawmakers introduce legislation to overturn Citizens United
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/04-0
Citizens United Backlash Grows from Cali. to NYC Urging Congress to Overturn Corporate Personhood
Thursday 5 January 2012
by: Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzalez, Democracy NOW! | Report
http://www.truth-out.org/citizens-united-backlash-grows-cali-nyc-urging-congress-overturn-corporate-personhood/1325794067
There are, of course, many, many, more examples that illustrate indisputable fact that the Occupy Movement has had a profound effect on the nation in only 3 1/2 months.
To suggest anything else would be totally obtuse.
randome
(34,845 posts)What an encyclopediac response!
Can you boil it down to a handful of bullet points, maybe?
'Declarations' and 'concerns' won't change the world.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)You may want to consider getting a bit more education.
You may need a new job soon, you never know.
randome
(34,845 posts)In other words, you can't list accomplishments of OWS, just intentions and philosophical meanderings.
Well, those are not of much use to people who are unemployed and trying to figure out where their next meal is coming from.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Have you ever even once actually posted a link to a source to back up your opinions?
I didn't think so.
Buh-bye!
My 'opinion' that I have yet to see a list of OWS accomplishments instead of a lot of gobble-de-gook about intentions? I'd need to link to this very thread.
ashling
(25,771 posts)to which you referred earlier (post # 38) were in that stage of the process
they were considered by many, if not most, to be expressing "just intentions and philosophical meanderings."
And that the future that was in store for them was considered by many more likely that they would produce a foundling rather than actually founding a nation stste that would last over 200 years
also, "politics out of doors," to use the aphorism of James Wilson, one of those founders, was not unimportant to their ends
Courage is the commitment to begin without any guarantee of success. - J W von Goethe
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)First it's, what's their demand and what have they done?!
Then you answer.
Then it's, why do you give us such a loooooong answer?!
The rules of the game are that they will be changed so that you always lose.
The name of the game is Sophistry.
randome
(34,845 posts)Here are some examples:
Yesterday, OWS actively campaigned on behalf of XXXXXXX candidate.
Or
As of today, OWS will conduct daily protests of Congressman XXXXXX because of his stance on XXXXXXX.
Or
OWS has begun a campaign initiative to put issue XXXXXX on this November's ballot.
Anything like that happening? If so, feel free to list them.
ashling
(25,771 posts)and subsequently the LA City Council came out in favor of an amendment overturning same.
You are not asking for results, you are asking for the result you want or expect.
If you refuse to acknowledge any results except the ones that you are looking for, then you are apt to see nothing at all.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
barbtries
(31,307 posts)this is what i believe about the OWS movement: it is our best possible hope for setting this country right (and by "right" i mean correct, just, democratic, egalitarian).
it's definitely changed the conversation at my house and i will continue to support it as it evolves and grows.
i hope i'll still be alive when it comes to fruition, corporate personhood and bought and sold politicians are a thing of the past, and opportunity is restored for all of us.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)I was going to respond - but you just said it all quite succinctly.
'Declarations' and 'concerns' won't change the world.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)
Hey You Kids,
Get Off my Lawn!
[font size=5 color=green][center]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
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Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)nor, I'm sure, the last that I have asked questions about OWS and have been insulted as a result of posing the question.
I am neither deliberately ignoring 'facts', nor am I ignorant of them.
And my ability 'to conceptualize' is just fine, thanks.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)your apparent inability to be able to recognize what is completely obvious to many people.
Good luck.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)is also recognized as being completely obvious by many people. That doesn't make it a fact.
And good luck to you, too.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Assisting families with municipal, state and federal aid programs. Family counseling for troubled families.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)workers out there 
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)have in the past done precisely what you are doing. I'm a good example of that.
What you are doing helps individual families. It does not change the political consciousness of Americans.
So while what you are doing is great, it does not achieve what the Occupy movement is doing which is to engage Americans in a thought process -- about the questions that Occupy is raising. What can we do to promote more economic justice? Why should corporations be given unabridged speech rights while real people have to get time, place and manner permits?
Sometimes raising questions is more important than anything else.
This is one of those times.
Over the course of our history, we relied on the independent media to raise questions and alert us to injustices. Sometimes they did that well. Sometimes they did a lousy job of it.
Right now, the vast majority of the media, the journalists, etc. are in the pay of big business. Most of the media spokespeople are poorly educated and have little ability to think analytically or critically. Because we Americans are relying on these beautiful, but in many cases, ignorant people for our information, we are dreadfully misinformed.
A lot of the people in the Occupy movement are questioning the basic premises on which our media and our society work. Occupy is suggesting that not the media, not the business CEOs, and not just politicians, but citizens at large need to ask more questions, discuss issues among themselves and lead rather than wait to be lead.
That is what the direct democracy of Occupy is about.
The great thing about Occupy, what is in a sense "revolutionary," (not meaning a violent revolution but something really new) is the process of direct democracy. It empowers everyone who participates, the homeless, the traditional leaders, everyone who wishes to say something at the General Assemblies of Occupy to speak with equal authority. All who speak receive the respectful attention of others in the group.
Assisting families with aid including financial aid takes care of their bodies. But accepting them as equals into a group of organized, loving people helps and heals everyone who participates. And that is the process that I have seen and appreciated in the Occupy movement when I visited their encampment in LA or walked with them.
Occupy is about changing the processes that have become so corrupt.
The Teabagger movement was corrupt in its inception and therefore failed to do a thing about the corruption in government and business. Occupy is trying a different approach. I don't have crystal ball and cannot predict the future of Occupy, but it is offering Americans an opportunity to improve our democratic processes. I hope that more Americans will participate in it, visit its events and talk to people who are active in it before judging it.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)as long as they get people to throw out the evil dark Muslim Nazi Stalinist* guy, they think they've been a success.
* Wow, I never knew you could be all three of those...
SixthSense
(829 posts)Clearly there is a great deal of effect or it wouldn\'t still be prominent today.
I have very specific suggestions on how to improve the effectiveness, however.
Occupy Wall Street needs to actually occupy Wall Street itself. Zuccotti Park is on the other side of Broadway and most of the people who work on Wall Street who would actually see them are the low level staff who need to take the train to work - not the guys with limos and helicopters. OWS needs to heed the call of Mario Savio and physically prevent the evil business going on down there from going about its merry way. This includes blocking the entrance to the stock exchange and the nearby NY Federal Reserve building, as well as buildings in the same immediate vicinity such as Goldman Sachs HQ @ 85 Broad St.
Over in Zuccotti Park they can be corralled and ignored. Go two blocks south and one east and you can bet people will stand up and take notice.
It doesn\'t need to be a coordinated crowd action with signs or anything - do it original flash mob style, coordinate electronically and then just all show up at once. Don\'t be obviously connected to each other, but at the same time stuff so many bodies on Wall and Exchange streets that business can\'t be conducted in its usual fashion.
That was the original point of occupying, wasn\'t it? We need a refresh.
Now Occupy DC has the same problem, only worse. They are also out of the way, and they\'ve never gotten in the faces of the people who are responsible for our mess. They need to be in one of two places, or both: either right at the entrance to Congress, where those who work there cannot ignore them; or alternatively (my favorite) over on K Street which is lobbyist ground central.
Imagine the good that could be done by slowing down the lobbyists and reduce their efficiency at corrupting and stealing our representation! Imagine them needing each to take an extra ten minutes every time they arrive at and leave their offices, just to make their way through the crowd. Imagine the demoralizing effect of identifying them and telling them point blank we know what they are doing and intend to put and end to it.
All the while make sure any and all police action is caught on video by multiple sources so it cannot be hidden or confiscated. Keep a couple of backup observers at a distance in case the police decide to corral, detain and search everyone on site for media equipment to confiscate.
Edit - adding one more thing. Name names. Imagine the fear that will be induced when a corrupt bastard sees his own name on a protest sign! Especially if these are lobbyists who like to work behind the scenes. Think any of these stealth corrupters want to be publicly known as a public enemy? It\'ll scare the piss out of them, maybe enough to cause some to quit/retire.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Too often we fall under the spell of talking about corporations as if they're people even when we say they aren't. Name names.
SixthSense
(829 posts)I just thought of one more... find out where the major colocation facilities are for high-frequency trading and cut the power as the stock exchange opens. Watch all hell break loose as the truth of what is going on in the market is revealed!
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Tell everyone you know to bring a tent
Regarding video documentation: Word is getting around about the fan and surround formation techniques, to shout "Cameras!" when they are needed.
I especially like "naming names". Let it be so!
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)My sense is that OWS hasn\'t had much impact on politics or the distribution of wealth so far. That\'s just my own take, based on my observation of what\'s happened. Am I required to show that I\'m out there changing the world in order to have an opinion?
I also don\'t think the war in Afghanistan is going all that well either. Do I have to be out there doing something to make it better in order to have that opinion too?
I think maybe a better way to phrase it would be \'If you think OWS is going about it all wrong, what would you differently.?
Truth is, I don\'t know what the best way to achieve all of this is. I don\'t have the answers . . . all I have are my opinions. I don\'t know if OWS has the right tactics. All I know is what I see and what I see is a very small movement that hasn\'t much changed things precisely because it is so small.
randome
(34,845 posts)...is the occasional status or update on OWS. Not all these threads that tell us how important OWS is.
So I turn your statement back on you: can you tell us what OWS is doing right now? I don't mean nebulous ideas for the future. What concrete steps are they taking today?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And no, we will NOT stop to please you.
You could ignore the threads you know. Lord knows I ignore those I consider superfluous.
randome
(34,845 posts)Or do you mean I am asking you to stop posting threads about how important you and OWS are? I suppose I am.
But do you think when someone asks for more informative posts, you might, you know, consider the idea?
Response to randome (Reply #19)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Spazito
(55,492 posts)By it very being, the discussions on the key issue/s of 'what's wrong with the country' changed from the bogus issue the repubs wanted, that being one of reducing the debt on the backs of the poor and middle class, to the REAL issue of the 1%, the bank bailouts, the disparity between the middle class and the poor DUE to the actions of the 1% who are being supported by the repubs.
I love Occupy for it's apolitical stance which gives it credibility and integrity, imo.
Response to Spazito (Reply #7)
NSojac This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)"Debt ceiling! Debt ceiling!" to "99%/Income inequality!" So the red herring has been made to go away, and something productive takes its place.
Spazito
(55,492 posts)That change of conversation is a major accomplishment in and of itself. The Democrats could not do it because any time they pointed out the disparity it was looked upon as election politics and dismissed out of hand. The very essence of Occupy being apolitical, taking their message to ALL politicians, gave their message the 'ring of sincerity' needed for the public to actually "hear" them and once they listened, the message resonated, imo.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,316 posts) NSojac
(19 posts)What if we embraced an OWS whose tactics and strategies were as diverse as its constituents? Presumably the people you're addressing have the much the same goals in mind. Armchair critics will be armchair critics but they will sometimes have valid criticism. We've successfully rejected hierarchical power structures and I think it's about time we've done away with hierarchical ideologies (given, of course, a few foundational philosophies). You're either with us, or against us, is in fact Their most supreme one-tool-fits-all method for promoting fear and divisive group-think. Let us try, for once, to not let it rule our decisions.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 5, 2012, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)
Working to get Democrats elected to the House and Senate, because that's where the decisions affecting OWS's issues will be made.
The list of Democrats I'm supporting include progressives like Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner. They also include moderates like Joe Donnelly and Claire McCaskill, in States where progressives aren't likely to be electable. Because there is a difference between Republicans and Democrats. And the Republicans will be far worse.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)And we can continue to put pressure on Dems who won't do the will of the people.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am mostly done with this ten person group.
No matter what they are shown....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002121244
There is a reason why that got crickets from usual suspects.
hack89
(39,181 posts)
AntiFascist
(13,751 posts)The 1% may be finally allowing the economy to turn around. I just hope the movement stays relevant in light of this.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You are correct on that.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)there are foreclosure auctions in LA every single day...and #OLA plan to have an effect there. I'm not sure the sugar pill of a slightly improving economy will stop the toxic problems already in place for many people.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)want OWS to do differently. What do they want done, what do they want to cease, what do they want more and/or less of?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Anyone who votes for a Democrat.
Anyone who effectively debates right wingers and crushes their stupidity.
Anyone who volunteers in a homeless shelter, etc.
T S Justly
(884 posts)
Generic Other
(29,080 posts)
Notice the longshoremen's call to their membership and the 99%. The rank and file support OWS.