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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe US police state, the "best" in the world
"There’s no getting around the fact that the United States is the Mother of All Police States. China can’t compete in the incarceration business. With four times the U.S. population, it imprisons only 70 percent as many people – about the same number as the non-white prison population of the U.S. Even worse, 80,000 U.S. inmates undergo the torture of solitary confinement on any given day.
When U.S. corporate media operatives use the term “police state,” they invariably mean some other country. Even the so-called “liberal” media, from Democracy Now! to the MSNBC menagerie, cannot bring themselves to say “police state” and the “United States” without putting the qualifying words “like” or “becoming” in the middle. The U.S. is behaving “like” a police state, they say, or the U.S. is in danger of “becoming” a police state. But it is never a police state. Since these privileged speakers and writers are not themselves in prison – because what they write and say represents no actual danger to the state – they conclude that a U.S. police state does not, at this time, exist.
Considering the sheer size and social penetration of its police and imprisonment apparatus, the United States is not only a police state, but the biggest police state in the world, by far: the police state against whose dimensions all other police systems on Earth must be measured.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/08/31-5
The sad part is that it continues to get worse and worse, yet the people of this country do nothing. They yawn, turn on American Idol, and opine that "hey, if you're doing nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about."
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a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I guess it's really going to depend on how we collectively define "Best."
I play with machine equipment, high voltage, and model rockets. No problems with LEO so far. (I've had inspections, and pretext visits, but I don't consider those problems. Everybody involved was polite and professional.)
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Yet has six hundred thousand more prisoners than China. If you live in any sort of urban area at all, small town to large city, you cannot walk out of your door without appearing on a camera somewhere. Your cell phone allows you to be tracked to within feet, anywhere in the country. It can also be used to eavesdrop on your conversations, even if you think it is off.
We are now in the process of having drones hovering over us all the time. Meanwhile, technology that allows police to see through the walls of your house has been developed and is now in the process of being shrunk, the better for use by police officers in cars or on foot.
Yes, it is dressed up to be the kinder, gentler police state, but it is a police state nevertheless. Try exercising your right to peacefully protest and see how long that kinder, gentler facade lasts.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) all of these technologies can be circumvented. Being in public doesn't give you the expectation of privacy. I wrap my foil in welder's foil. Sons of Anarchy TV show showcases a simple way of dealing with the phone bug thing... leave it in a box outside of the sensitive topics.
1a.) My house has aluminized insulation as part of the insulation in the walls and ceilings.
2.) I was part of my local Occupy movement. Our cops brought us coffee and pizza.
3.) If you want a real police state... I saw the SA police under Apartheid...
MadHound
(34,179 posts)The point is, we shouldn't have to be forced to come up with workarounds to these technological challenges. And while your experience with Occupy was all peaches and cream, a lot of peoples' weren't, many will bear the physical scars of their peaceful exercise of their first amendment rights to the day they die.
Nor does any of that excuse the excessive incarceration rates we have in this supposedly free country.
Like I said earlier, we have the trappings of a kinder, gentler police state, but it is a police state nevertheless. But hey, don't worry, be happy, go back to your couch, American Idol is coming on.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I don't watch TV, as:
1.) I'm usually too busy on the 'net
2.) I like to build things
3.) I took the TV apart, for the power supply
Excessive incarceration rates? How so?
Look, dude... I'm 6'2" and 225, with a long black ponytail and a beard. I go around wearing a brown bomber jacket, t-shirts with political slogans/smart-ass sayings, cargo pants, and either combat boots, or foot-gloves. Over 30 years of being listed by this society as an adult... I have NEVER had one problem with the cops. (Not even in the south. I'll admit that I faced some questions at one of those snap sobriety check-points, but I had rockets in open view, in the back of the car.)
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And while your own experience may be just fine, for many people it isn't.
I'm 6'5", and at the time I was living in Springfield Mo, I was a nice, fit 240. Like you, long ponytail and a goatee, though not the same clothing. I was stopped by the police eight times in four years either walking down the street or riding my bike for no other reason than the standard hassle, "who are you, where do you live, etc." Granted, that was twenty five years ago, but that town, along with many other towns, simply hasn't changed.
Try having a brown skin and see how often you get pulled over. Try being white skinned and simply in the wrong town, or the wrong part of town. Don't you get it, just because you have never had any problems doesn't mean that your experience is universal, or even common.
City I live fairly close to now has "safety stops", basically checkpoints where you are stopped and the police demand to see your license, registration and insurance papers. No reason, and everybody going down that road is stopped for this "papers please" checkpoint. You don't find that disturbing in the least?
You don't think it is excessive that we have more people in prison that China does? You don't find it just the least bit strange that forty percent of the prison population is African American? You don't find it the least bit disturbing that the US has the highest incarceration rate of the entire world?
Wake up, just because you have never had any problems doesn't mean you can generalize your experience to the rest of us. In fact, looking at the numbers, you are becoming more and more of an exception.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) Are you trying to have a conversation, or rouse the troops?
2.) With the number of uninsured motorists on the road, I don't find the "safety stops" all that strange. (matter of fact, one town I lived in had roving versions of this.) Presenting ID and paperwork is part of the deal in driving that car.
3.) Given the poor schools, and high cost of decent lawyers, I'm not surprised by the number of folks in prison.
4.) Implying I'm not awake, just because I find you excessive, is a tad insulting. Do you win many arguments by insulting people?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Yet when I present you with facts and figures, you retreat into a defensive crouch that basically consists of "hey, it isn't happening to me, so everything must be OK". Sorry, but I find that sort of apathy infuriating, especially in the light of the excesses we see happening everyday.
And are you really stating that part of the problem is "poor schools"? Let me tell you something, despite the propaganda that is obviously being pumped into your head, the kids are alright
So you think it is OK to stop people for no good reason, just driving down the street? Let me guess, you're in favor of New York City's stop and frisk policy as well. Oh, and have you ever thought that the reason we have an increase in uninsured drivers is because our economy sucks? Presenting ID and paperwork when I'm pulled over for some other reason is fine. Pulling me over just to check my papers is unConstitutional and unAmerican.
Now then, I've presented a fair amount of evidence showing that we are indeed a police state. Do you have any sort of proof, sources, links, that we're not? And I'm not talking about just your experience, but actual evidence?
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)I sure as hell hope so!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)is on YOU to prove that we ARE a police state.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If you are going to accuse someone (or a group of someones) of a crime, YOU have to prove they did it.
You rely too much on rhetoric, instead of facts.
Let's try this with different words...
"Prove to me that you DIDN'T take that lady's purse."
That's the structure you are using.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I've provided plenty of evidence, let's see you cough up some. Or can't you do that in order to refute my position?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and let's skip hysterical shrieking sites like wsws, shall we?
If you are going to accuse the USA of being a police state, YOU must prove, beyond reasnable doubt, that it is so.
The mere fact that we have actual elections shows you are wrong.
The mere fact that I can go and buy fire arms, shows you are wrong.
The mere fact that I can buy/build rockets longer than a standard car, shows you are wrong.
The mere fact that I can sue a cop, should they get nasty with a nightstick, shows you are wrong.
The mere fact that we have trial by jury, shows you are wrong.
The mere fact that I can publish any sort of radical paper - provided that it does not advocate violent crime - shows you are wrong.
If you go into the "there's not a dime's worth of difference between the two candidates" schtick...
Then it's pretty obvious what your underlying message is.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Let's see, Common Dreams, Popular Mechanics, yeah, real radical stuff.
As far as your "points" go, let's see
Elections that are up for sale to the highest bidder, or have you forgotten Citizens United?
Ooo, you can go purchase an AR-15, just how much good will that do against a tank, a jet. Face it, they're not scared of you and your little gun.
What do rockets have to do with anything? You keep bringing up your hobby like that's some sort of proof. Guess what, rocketry was a popular hobby in Nazi Germany as well.
At least you're finally admitting that we have widespread police violence in this country. And how often are lawsuits concerning such violence found in favor of the victim? Not often.
Trial by jury, wait, I thought you yourself said, or at least implied that we had a justice system that is more a function of money than justice.
Sure, you can publish a paper, but can you get any kind of meaningful distribution, I don't think so.
And where in this thread have I said anything about a dime's worth of difference? Again, another Eastwood moment?
But please, tell me, what is my "underlying message"? I'm dying to know.
LibertyLass
(2 posts)I'm sorry but you are either completely out of touch with reality or you have had too much fluoride in your lifetime! I don't mean to be rude, but come on! Let's look at some of your points, which lack in both common sense and logic. I can dispute every point you make as ridiculous. I am not trying to antagonize you, I just want you to do some research and wake up!
A veteran was just forcibly arrested and detained for posting 911 truth info on his facebook page. Oh wait, aren't they working to abolish freedom on the internet? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people being illegally arrested and held for the simple fact that they hold anti government sentiments. No, this is not happening just in North Korea folks, it's happening in the US! Likewise, the "authorities" have now listed protesting as low level terrorism. The government has stated that veterans are now the the greatest threat, and have listed such things as pro Ron Paul bumper stickers, pro lifers, people with cameras, etc. as possible threats. You have free speech zones rather then free speech. You need a permit to tape federal buildings. The list goes on and on. Sorry, free speech is a thing of the past!
Let's move on to police brutality and abuse. G20 anyone?! A double amputee was just shot and killed by police for holding a pen! A homeless man was beaten and tasered to death by no less than six cops while he screamed for his dad. I hear daily about the police beating and/or killing innocent people all the time, and every time their superiors support their actions. They plant agents provocateurs to give them the excuse to beat your ass. They have militarized the police, and are purposely hiring idiots that will do what they are told, and to hell with the constitution. A man just sued the police department because he was not accepted onto the police force because his IQ was too high. Why? Because they don't want intelligent people who can think for themselves.
Elections? Are you kidding me?! If both of the candidates are bought and paid for by the very same people, then do you really have open and honest elections? Isn't there election fraud all the time? It's like saying that you have a democratic election, but you can only vote for Hitler or Stalin. Great! I believe the Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson, has filed a federal lawsuit in California against the organizers of the upcoming series of presidential debates, arguing that the political parties violated the Sherman Act by conspiring to prevent him from participating. Wait, didn't they screw Ron Paul out of Maine and other states? Just having the appearance of democracy to keep the sheeple happy does not mean that the electoral process is fair or just, but apparently it keeps people feeling safe and secure in their belief that the US is not a police state.
As for firearms, have you heard of the United Nations small arms treaty? Have you heard of people being constantly questioned for purchasing ammunition or carrying a firearm? Oh, didn't the ATF get caught shipping firearms into Mexico to blame the 2nd amendment so they could take away your right to bear arms? Didn't they forcibly confiscate firearms in New Orleans? Your ownership of guns is your last defense against tyranny and they know it. This is why they are working fast and furious (please excuse the expression!) to take this right away from you!
They are shutting down small farms, confiscating land under Agenda 21, dumbing you down with fluoride, poisoning you with aspartame, killing you with GMO's and vaccines, devaluing your dollar with QE3, shipping your jobs overseas, making you believe that giving your money to Al Whore will make the world a better place. What about the Patriot Act? The NDAA, signed in secret on New Year's Eve that allows the government to detain any citizen for any length of time, without due process. That one item alone screams a police state! They do all this with a brilliant smile on their smug faces because they know that you'll buy in to it. It's time that you read their own documents that state their intentions quite plainly. They admit that they want to depopulate the world, take away your guns, redistribute the wealth of the Western nations to poorer nations, track your every move, abolish land ownership, etc. Look it up! Don't sit idly by and believe that everything is okay because that has been your experience.
So you go ahead and believe that there is a difference between Mittens and Obooba, and watch your country go down the drain. Go ahead and keep reading the lame stream media and be spoon fed a bunch of lies by a bunch of presstitutes that are told what to say and how to say it. You stand by waving your flag as they replace it with the UN flag. Just keep believing in the lie that everything is alright, because that is exactly what they want you to do until it is too late!
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)couldn't take it anymore. You got to be f***king kidding. People are constantly being thrown in jail for " yep I think he / she did it". I know. No eye witness, no finger prints, no DNA, just, it had to be them. You are out of touch with the reality of our judicial system. Reasonable doubt my arse. It's "we have to convict this sucker because we don't want to be responsible for letting a criminal go". No I was not convicted of anything.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)No, the law is still on the books. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
Not saying the system is perfect, but I play by the rules.
The rules in any court case are: The accuser needs to show proof.
Seriously, kid. Get real. You're posting bombast to support ONE article.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Two more sources than you've provided.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If YOU are doing the accusing, then YOU need to provide evidence beyond the shadow of a doubt.
The mere fact that you can type this, without being black bagged, proves the in-validity of your argument.
Own a gun? Then there's no police state.
traveled anywhere not in a security area recently, and not needed travel papers? Then there's no police state.
Look, from your post structure of:
--cameras-prove me wrong-apathy-etc--
it's pretty clear that you have a political insurgent goal in mind...
just cut to the chase.
Libertarian or communist? Which are you?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Libertarian or communist
Sorry McCarthy, but I'm neither.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)then post your solution
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Like global warming, a declining economy, crowded traffic conditions, do you also demand that they post a solution as well?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and I can suggest a few solutions.
Also, the idea of "criticize, but don't overtly point out a solution" is an old trick from the Frankfurt ISR.
What's your solution?
Personally, if there WAS an attempted Marxist uprising, I'd help the cops and the small store owners.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and you feel no need to prove your assertions...
oh that's right... you're just trying to "initiate a conversation..."
Eastwood moments? Rats... I lost my chair.
McCarthy... nice.
Dude, when you want to prove your assertions, please feel free.
LibertyLass
(2 posts)Have you not heard of the random check points along the highways? What about TSA shoving their hands in your pants to make sure that Al-Qaeda (aka Al-CIA-da) isn't hiding in your underwear? I see the police illegally asking for people to show ID all the time. Give me a break! It's coming in increments, but it's coming! Did you think they were just going to march into the streets with banners declaring the US is now a police state? If you think they don't monitor what is being said on the internet and engaging in illegal wiretapping then I want to go live in Bob's fluffy world! I am a woman, a mother and a peace officer, but one thing I'm not is asleep! You will deny the police state even as they force vaccinate your kids and march you happily off to the reeducation camp.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)By your tone I'm most definitely older than you. Previous post was first post bombasting? LOL. You keep saying The burden of proof is on the accuser. " and its bull hockey. All it takes is for one innocent person to be thrown in jail and or executed to make it so. You are a youngin in the workings of our judicial system that is clear. Now you stop bombasting the op.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)by your logic, any one can accuse...
and it should stick.
That's a recipe for mob rule. There's a pretty good reason we give multiple decade sentences to riot inciters.
As to your "you are a youngin in the workings..." My sister was a public defender. "The burden of proof" is the foundation of law. You don't like it, vote against it. (Which would be remarkably stupid.)
The OP made accusations, and can't back them up. If the OP is - as I suspect - pushing for mass unrest, I have no problems backing up the cops. I like the idea of being able to go about my life, and not worry about rioters.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Burden of proof and that I'm pushing for mass unrest. Let's put those two together and see you provide proof that I'm pushing for mass unrest.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I believe that I asked for your solution. I also stated that IF you were pushing for mass unrest, I'd support the cops in busting you.
SO...
what's your solution?
c'mon, give us a hint...
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)and you're part of the mob and your sister. Logic fails you and your avoidance of " innocent people convicted " is a mob mentality. Mobs do not care about the truth they only care about going with the mob. Mob folk are brainwashed and have a mental shutdown. Unless you can answer how does an innocent person get convicted if the burden of proof is on the accuser. So far nothing. It's so f**king sad.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm
http://www.thenation.com/article/168142/how-many-innocent-people-have-we-sent-prison
The system is f**ked. All people involved in the conviction of a innocent person should themselves be thrown in jail. Burden of proof on the accuser my arse. What are the ramifications to the accuser if they help convict a innocent person. ROFLMAO. A joke. Police and prosecutors strive for a convictions not the truth. Gotta hang someone. Vigilantes. Vigilantes and rioters are one in the same. Go to Bootheel Arizona and look at the graves. Once again rights have been dramatically assaulted the last 40 years. If you can't address all of the things I have mentioned don't bother because it is just air, no meaning.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)It sounds like we've gone into the realm of rhetoric.
1.) How was the study conducted?
2.) What were the error protocols?
Predictive and concurrent validity?
You and OP seem to have a goal in mind. What's your plan to fix this?
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)You never address the issues. The OP and I have nothing to fix. It is only you and others that refuse the truth that have mountains of work to do on themselves first and then their cohorts. Even if you do rid yourself of the mental blocks you will find yourself 
with your cohorts. I'm done with you. Have a nice day Mr. Avoidance.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)can answer those questions...
It's an integral part of doing a study.
It's obvious you feel there is a problem.
I have addressed the issue, by trying to check the validity of OP's statements (dodgy and purple prose.) As I find his statements to be over the top, and loosely connected with reality, why would I agree?
What is your solution? What are these "mountains of work to do" on myself? Are you implying re-education is needed? Who gets to choose? In my opinion, you're begging the question again.
Thank you for your kind wishes for the day. I hope you have a good day, Mr. rabble-rouser.
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)DEATH ROW in the last ten years INNOCENT. How many innocent were ecxecuted in the previous 50 years. By those numbers there are tens of thousands out of the 2 plus million prisoners are innocent.. It's called warehousing humans for profit. You don't lock a human or an animal in a concrete tomb for months or years and call it humane. I would rather a bullet to my head than endure that treatment.
Why does a 60 year old man have to piss in a fucking jar to prove to his doctor that he hasn't smoked marijuana.
Americans remind me of the Buffalo. That stupid critter just stands there as each and every one are shot and dead, the whole fucking herd. They don't even try to do anything but just stand there chewing their cud. Just get me that latest material fad and life is good. And pass the Big Mac please.
Yeah, it's police state enough for me.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and want to actually have a conversation...
I'll be waiting.
If you are going to be driving, and get in an accident, shouldn't you have the ability to pay for the damage you cause?
Implied Consent (when cops can just pull you over to see your insurance papers, or for sobriety tests) is one of the conditions for getting your license.
I'll go with Wikipedia's definition:
A police state is one in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.
You'll likely bring up the bit about free speech zones, and the Patriot Act, from the article...
To which I will point out that ALL of those pieces were in place previous to the 1930's.
Large crowds have to have permits, so the city can make sure the whole thing doesn't become a riot. You have the right to protest. You do NOT have the right to impede my movement into a building, as long as my actions are within the law. For example, if you block my entrance into a recruiting station, you are infringing on MY right to assemble and express myself.
The cops could enter your place legally, before PATRIOT... it was called Exigent circumstances.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Ever heard of the Patriot Act, the NDAA, The No Fly List, Stop and Frisk, Road Blocks? Naked Scanners at the airports and now appearing on the ground also?
and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement.
Been to an OWS protest lately? How about Americans protesting the political policies of the
Republican Party this week?
Florida National Guard troops stand guard along barricades erected around the Tampa Police Department in Tampa, Fla., Saturday, Aug. 25, 2012. A heavy presence of law enforcement officers are in place to provide security for the Republican National Convention which begins Monday in Tampa. (AP Photo/Dave Martin)
Bring in the National Guard to keep those citizens away from their elected officials!
Why do they need an army on the streets of our cities every time people exercise their 1st Amendment rights? Who are they going to war with? Have we been invaded or something?
Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.
Ever heard of Homeland Security, the CIA, the DEA? We don't just have ONE secret police force we must have half a dozen of them by now. Just that word 'Homeland' should give people the creeps. Clearly you have not been keeping up with things such as the arrests of Journalists for coverging protests. No Demcracy arrests journalists who are simply covering a story that I know of.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)A papers please stop, along with stop and frisk, DHS, etc are ndeed restrictions on our mobility. Free speech cages, among other tactics, are restrictions on our First Amendment. Political control is indeed exerted to deny us our rights, and forces like Blackwater, 'scuse me, Xe, do operate outside the boundaries normally imposed.
No, not all of those pioeces were in place previous to the '30's. Wonderful, a man who doesn't know his history. When did free speech zones go into effect? When did the Patriot Act go into effect? Those are twenty first century phenomenon. Exigent circumstances only applied in an emergency, now no know warrants are commonplace.
You've make the contention that this was all in place decades ago, prove it.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)finding them!
it's amazing. we have more people per capita incarcerated than anyplace in the world, including all those nasty dictatorships we're constantly going to war with, and here we have democrats defending it all.
you talk about internet snooping in your email, web pages, personal data and the reaction is a big yawn, or 'if they want to waste their time reading about my vacation, who cares?' or 'don't use the internet/cell phone/credit card/car with gps/etc if you're so worried'.
'so long as i'm ok, i don't give a rip.'
which is the attitude, i think, of most of the population. they just don't care -- until it affects them.
i swear to god, i'm thinking the ptb could kill off half the population of a couple of cities and it wouldn't bother most people one bit, so long as they weren't themselves personally inconvenienced.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)that thinking is part of " The American Dream "
justabob
(3,069 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)And this happens day in, day out, across the country.
randome
(34,845 posts)But it happens every day in every country our size or greater. It is not evidence of a police state. It's evidence of violent individuals in positions of authority.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And it has become all too common in this country.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)every major political event (like the conventions) and protests. It's really over the top and reveals what they are *really* afraid of. They aren't worried about destroying the environment, they aren't worried about contaminating our sources of drinking water, they aren't worried about poverty, education, justice or economic equality. But they are worried about us disrupting their economic summits and political gatherings. The manner in which they deploy riot police reveals that the US is indeed a police state.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)But what you consider isn't important.
FACTS are what is important.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Seriously, I've yet to see you link to any facts, or anything that backs up your POV.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)world'. It does not happen in France, England, Ireland, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Australia, Canada, Portugal or any other civilized country in the world.
When an incident of police brutality does occur, there is outrage in most of those countries
In Greece, the killing of one teenager sparked riots that lasted a whole summer eg.
'It's evidence of violent individuals in positions of authority'
The police are NOT in positions of authority over the people. They are our employees, we pay their salaries, they work for US. We are the authority. THEY have forgotten that and are abusing the limited authority we did give them, which was to arrest the bad guys, NOT kill citizens on a daily basis. Children, even pets are being murdered by the cops these days.
You do not speak for the average American. Most Americans are outraged over the growing violence of our Civilian Police. Most civilized Americans that is.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)You're not trying to educate... You're trying to rouse the troops.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)The highest incarceration rate in the world, watching the Fourth Amendment trashed before our very eyes.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) there is no expectation of privacy in public.
2.) we have people doing dumb shit, and it gets them busted
3.) if we have the 4th amendment getting trashed so bad, how come I haven't had my place tossed? How come no one I know has had their place tossed?
It really sounds like you have an ulterior motive...
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Do you think it is OK that many of these cameras can, and are, being used to peer into windows? Do you think it is OK that now the police can use IR and other technology to look through walls? Do you think it is OK for a person to be stopped and frisked at random in NYC and an increasing number of other cities
And again, as I've said so many times to you in this thread, you can't judge matters based solely on your own personal experience. You are an older, white male, probably the least harassed group in this country. Try looking at things from the perspective of others, such as those who get pulled over simply for Driving While Black.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)okay then...
1.) If you have your window open, don't be surprised if people look in. This is why I have this fascinating new invention called drapes...
2.) Lets cut to the chase, in terms of regarding the rest of your terms...
"We must rise up against the fascist dictorships of the United States, and their running dog lackeys known as the police."
Dude, if we are living in a Police state, we are you allowed to type this?
As for the rest of your stuff...
Your whole thing seems to be "My perspective is right, because I say so, while your perspective is wrong, because I say so.
It doesn't work that way. Burden of proof, an all that.
randome
(34,845 posts)...the new episode of Dr. Who is tonight! Sorry, don't know why I said that. 
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)This thesis paper really ate into my social life.
I'm planning on a Whovian marathon, when the paperwork is done. With jellybabies.
randome
(34,845 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)But there it is.
I figure the Who marathon is going to last a week.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I'm talking about looking through your walls. But hey, you know what, if I leave my window open and somebody looks through it, you know what that is called? A peeping tom, and it is a crime.
As far as proof goes, I've provided proof, not that you've paid any attention to it. But you have provided nothing, absolutely nothing, no sources, no links, nothing, to disprove what I've said.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) you really shouldn't let yourself get this angry...
2.) if the USA is such a police state, then why would they allow insulation? You know... the stuff THAT STOPS HEAT FROM LEAVING.
3.) Go look up "plain sight" rulings.
If you have provided proof, just cite the post #.
YOU need to post incontrovertible proof that the USA is a police state.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)You have provided more than ample evidence that backs up my contentions about the apathy of the populace in this country. How can I can get mad at a walking, talking joke?
Now then, as far as looking through your walls, I suggest that you go educate yourself on the technology, just do a google search, it's out there.
And pssst, plain sight doesn't mean you can look through your neighbor's walls.
But hey, what do you think about those lasers than pick up your conversations via your windows. Guess what, now a warrant isn't needed to bug your home. But I suppose you have some sort of rationalization for that, don't you.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If you are referring to the man portable radars, those things are notoriously bad. High power input needed, so they aren't one man portable. low scan rate, so you don't get a great image.
You're going into tin foil hat territory.
Can they bug you without a warrant? Yes, under exigent circumstances (hell, that's first year civics stuff!)
Worried about the laser listening bugs? Use a two radios aimed at the mirror.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Here we are discussing high tech listening devices, and you're suggesting how to get around them. Sounds like a police state to me. Don't you get it, we shouldn't have to figure out ways to retain our privacy in our own house.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Monroe's Motivated Sequence shows what you are doing:
1.) get their attention
2.) show that there is a big problem that is bad, and isn't going to go away...
3.) show a solution
4.) make them visualize worse alternatives
5.) call to action
So far, you've done 1,2,4.
In compliance with propaganda, when asked for proof, you've tried to mirror the demand. Then you tried to claim the demand was unaware of the situation, and returned to points 2 and 4.
Cut to the chase... post points 3 and 5.
I'll bet the restaurant tab that it involves something from marx.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Well, I admit, I've studied both Marx and Engels, but then again, so have a lot of people, both capitalists and socialist. It's all in how you implement what he taught.
But you keep stating that I'm a communist, why? For criticizing the police state that exists in this country? Marx was about economics, not a police state. Perhaps you need to do some studying yourself.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) you still have YET to prove that there is a police state. You just tried to beg the question. It shows that you don't have the evidence to make a case.
2.) Marx was about taking over countries. He pushed for the destabilization of existing structures, and then rebuilding. Too bad that none of it worked (at least in pure form.)
Cut to the chase... what's your solution?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Promoting a bit of discussion so that perhaps we can come to a solution. Are you happy now?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Frankfurt ISR trick...
criticize to lead to discussion.
look... you've already done the repeat first and second points. You've used purple post (unbelievable amount of force, etc) to further your points...
What is your solution?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)What are you talking about, this "Frankfurt ISR trick"?
Second of all, what, you don't believe in people discussing an issue to possibly find a solution? Wow, Thomas Paine and other Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.
Pssst, that "purple post" is actually a link. Click on it, educate yourself.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Was the primary source/think tank for the Marxist academic movement. (ISR = Institute for Social Research).
Their whole MO was "criticize western civilization via questions/appealing to fear. Then state all you want is to initiate a discussion."
I believe in people discussing problems.
That's why I'm asking what is YOUR idea of a solution.
Surely, an educated and thoughtful person such as yourself has a proposal to offer.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I'm using the Socratic method, at least a modified form of it. That damned socialist Socrates.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Uses a set of guided questions to lead the answerer to a given cognitive or behavioral standard.
Other than that, I also dislike Socrates and Plato for their Fascist republic plan.
Weren't you going to sleep?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Oh, and while Plato's rule of the wise was rather authoritarian, it certainly wasn't fascist, since corporations and corporate control were nowhere in the mix.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) children taken from parents and raised y the state...
2.) the "guardians" can do what they want, as long as it helps the state...
3.) only philosophers <spits on ground> get to run things
You're right, I shouldn't have called them fascist. But totalitariarism is hard to dance to.
So, a great sage...
What's your end goal?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)How did the football draft go?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Would you like me to give you a list of people who have not only had their 'places tossed' but have had their children killed by the police, who have had their pets shot to death, who have their loved beaten to death and others nearly killed.
It would be difficult the incidences are so frequent. There are whole websites trying to keep track of the American Citizens murder by the police.
I have not had MY place 'tossed' yet either. Neither did a lot of people in countries which turned into police states.
How many dead citizens do you think is acceptable before we start paying attention? Or does it not matter so long as your and my place are not 'tossed'? Lots of Germans did not have their places 'tossed' either, but that didn't mean that others were not dying and being tortured and having THEIR places tossed. Too bad those who did not have their places tossed didn't speak up on behalf of those who did. A lot of lives might have been saved.
And we are not talking about privacy in public anymore. Although I find it extremely creepy to know some government agent is watching me walking down the street. Why? What business is it of the government where I go when I go out? How sad that you have come to accept this kind of government oppression and spying as normal.
How on earth did the world survive without the Government watching every move citizens made, reading their personal letters, opening their mail, listening to their private conversations? This is the world you want? Because you got it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Cause you sound a LOT like a "dude" that used to post here who said "dude" a lot.
He had white hair and like to troll dating sites for exotic, zaftig women.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)(Checks wife)
(checks self in mirror)
nope.
my wife's curvy, but not zaftig, and my hair's still (mostly) black.
Nice try, though.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)from spying on you? Do you realize that citizens of all police states had to resort to those methods, and over time, developed the same attitude, they accepted it, as you appear to be doing?
Someone seeing your comment from an actual Democracy would be amazed at the acceptance of the Government violating your Constitutional rights with a dismissive 'I know how to get around it'. THAT demonstrates what the OP is saying. We are beyond the initial stage of a police state, outrage. We are now at the stage of acceptance and apathy.
rDigital
(2,239 posts)on us either. I don't ever want to get used having to employ surveillance counter-measures. What happens when your politics don't jive with those who are in power? Do you become an enemy of the state for simply disagreeing with them?
The 4th Amendment was written for a reason, so was the 2nd.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I try to deal with what is.
As a rocketeer and an inventor, I have to deal with IRL trolls, that will attempt break-ins, and nuisance lawsuits...
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Is your own personal experience. You seem incapable of contemplating what other folks deal with. You seem to think that if you're doing OK, everyone is doing OK. Sad, that lack of empathy.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If you have proof, state it here.
Your bombast is pointing out your lack of PROOF.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Links, stats, etc. The only one who is lacking in proof is you, and your excuse seems to be that sense you're not trying to prove anything, you can use only rhetoric. That is not how things work in a debate.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Which post in this thread shows your links?
could you post them again?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Though I don't see how, since you replied to it, along with replying to my post linking to stats on security cameras. Selective vision perhaps?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)30 million cameras does not a police state make. I have security cameras on my property. Am I part of the conspiracy? (Does my wife know?)
thermographs (the IR things that "look through walls" are pretty easily beaten via insulation.
ONE article doesn't do it.
Get a grip man.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)You're buying into it. Scared, scared of the world.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Now I got it pegged...
You're giving a "voice to the voiceless," aren't you...
Look, I freely admit to owning property in the United States. My wife and I bought it for fee simple.
How is that buying into your fantasy of fascist cops and 30 million cameras? I take care of things I own. Common trait of craftsmen.
Kid, from your conversation, you obviously don't know "the world."
Shall we compare experiences?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)That's nice, most normal people do.
And I'm happy that you own property, a lot of people in this country, including myself, own property. Does that make you special?
So what is your craft? Making rockets, interesting, but I'll stick with rebuilding antique cars.
What experiences do you want to compare, seriously. This should be good, real good.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)The rockets are a hobby.
I set up power equipment. (Solar heating, a little bit of wind, some compost heating).
How would owning the property make me special? I have cameras up to avoid losing tools.
30 million cameras in public (some of mine look onto a street) isn't a police state.
Let's see...
should we go by year to year? Or would you prefer types of experience?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)What, your tools are out on the street?
And whatever way you want to whip it out, this should be good, or at least good for a laugh.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Having a camera running shows who broke in, should that happen.
Why should someone be allowed to steal?
I'm good for years, area, or categories.
you choose first.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Will that prevent your tools from being stolen? Will it even help catch the thief, especially if they're clever and cover their faces and such.
I'm not saying that people should be allowed to steal, I abhor a thief. But I also find it disturbing that people are going over the top to prevent something that in all probability won't happen.
And by all means, you go first. But if you're going to get started, do so soon, it's almost time for me to go to bed, and I have a busy day tomorrow, fantasy football draft and all.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and it'll help with the homeowner's insurance. Why would you find it disturbing that I want cameras on my property?
How about we go year by year?
I'll start:
AGE 13: visited Brazil. Helped 8 rights workers evade military police. Got home, raised 100 bucks for Amnesty International. Accused of GTA. Case dropped due to lack of evidence.
AGE 14: accused of being involved in multiple thefts. cases dropped on lack of evidence. Actually involved in multiple fights, to protect three LGBT fellow students, and their right to speak.
You said you wanted to call it a night...
so, just one more question...
What is your solution?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Just how did you help eight rights workers evade military police in Brazil? At the age of 13? Sorry, but I find that very hard to believe. What language did you use to communicate?
And again, I answered your question about a solution, but you keep pressing me for one. How about you actually contribute to the discussion and offer one of your own
After all, that is what discussions are supposed to be about.
Psst, it doesn't give you a damn thing if the camera can't see the perp's face, something most decent thieves keep covered. And unless you're living in a real high crime area, it isn't going to give you much of an insurance break at all. Oh, and what are you watching with those cameras pointed at the street?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you'll have to find it hard to believe. I'll state that I hid them in my family's hotel room. We spoke English and guidebook portuguese. It looked it wasn't a real serious one, as the cops didn't go room by room. I was a very lucky dumb and hyperactive kid that wanted to do the right thing. I could have ended up in prison or dead.
Your whole: I just want to start the conversation also sounds like you ripped it out of the ISR handbook. You asked if I'm happy. No, I'm not happy, when people try propaganda.
The amateur thieves don't much cover there heads. The pro's will take a look at the cameras, and then take a look at the inscribed gear, and figure it's not worth it.
My insurance company cut me a pretty good deal.
I thought you were going to sleep?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Sorry, but I simply have trouble believing that you did something like that at age thirteen. You don't like that, oh well, you'll have to live with it.
You think I'm trying to disseminate propaganda, you're wrong. Whether you believe it or not, I was simply trying to start a discussion, going about it in a modified Socratic manner. If it seems like something out of the ISR handbook, oh well. The Socratic method has been around for a couple thousand years and is considered a common, classic way of learning and discussion. Geez, I can't believe that I'm having to explain my discussion methods to somebody on this board after all these years simply because that person is in some sort of hyperactive McCarthy mode.
And why are you so eager for me to get to bed? Yes, I said I was heading there soon. Soon is a relative term, deal with it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I had to get to sleep myself.
I don't like the Socratic method, as Socrates and his crowd had a definite goal in mind: Plato's republic: what we might call a fascist organization. Also, The Socratic method presupposes the other party is more than a bit dim.
As to my misadventures in Brazil. I'm sorry if you have trouble believing it. As I said, there's no way I'm giving up personal info so you'll have to deal with your doubt. My family had a lot fewer problems than you'd expect, as we have a family history of helping people out of trouble. (For that matter, my one of my great uncles hunted Nazis in a little thing called WWII.)
You've obviously got a goal in mind. Enlighten us great unwashed, oh noble philosopher! What's the plan?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Gotta keep up with the technology, because it is certainly keeping up with you.
Blecht
(3,806 posts)Here in Portland, our cops had their happy faces on, too. They joked around. They offered to take pictures of us. They even mugged for the camera.
Then the crackdown came. And their behavior was some of the most brutal anywhere in the country.
Watch the video and tell me that is not what a police state looks like.
randome
(34,845 posts)Sorry, this didn't prove your case. In a police state, protesters would be shot.
And yes, that has happened before but it's a rare occurrence.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)wouldn't a police state ban people from owning firearms? Or explosives? or High Voltage equipment?
I think OP's case is weak...
randome
(34,845 posts)Now back to your thesis paper!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Other than looking for speeling errors <- like this one!
70 pages, 50 primary literature sources, and 15 interviews (my university's ethics board got a little freaked out, when I mentioned I had to talk to people that worked with explosives...)
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)So YOUR personal experiences carry more weight than mine.
Right.
Look, New Haven is pretty much the finishing school for our nation's leaders. (Or at least a whole bunch of them.) We've got Skull and Bones over here, fer christ's sake. Shouldn't the cops get frisky over here? Our tent town took up half the city green.
Why weren't there a whole bunch of police incidents over here?
daeron
(28 posts)Look at the Indonesian police the US has been funding and training, or google "police torture video" to see Egyptian interrogation practices - Egypt where the US sent many people while on route to Guantanamo Bay.
Police state practices not only hurts the victims, it also puts Americans at risk of retribution worldwide
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)don't want a police state.
our good and noble friend MadHound seems to pine for one.
Navl
(18 posts)It's estimated that China executes about 4-5,000 people per year, most by shooting vs the U.S. with 43 in 2011 by lethal injection. There are 55 offenses that can get you executed in China, including economic crimes such as bribery, drug-trafficking, and embezzlement. The executions take place quickly after sentencing. Could it be that the threat of execution is an efficient way of keeping people in line? I'm sure that if drug trafficking were punishable by execution (which actually takes place in a reasonable amount of time) we would have far less people in prison since we have a huge number of people in jail for drug offenses.
Do you really want to go there?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)to devolve to a slippery slope argument???
Jeebers christmas, can't you guys post proof for your claims?
Navl
(18 posts)I wasn't saying we were on any kind of slippery slope. I was simply pointing out that simply because China has less incarcerated citizens per capita that doesn't mean it's not a police state, nor does our having more make us one.
As far as the figures go, look them up yourself. You can find them pretty easily on Wikipedia, or go to Amnesty International, or others who keep track of these types of things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Navl
(18 posts)You're the one that brought China up, not me.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)As for the drones...
I keep most of my gear in a large garage. What's to see?
Sorry about splitting this up into two posts, but things have been busy.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)
struggle4progress
(125,317 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)You got anything better, put it up here.
struggle4progress
(125,317 posts)If you want to argue the US over-populates its prisons by disproportionate draconian sentencing, I'll probably agree
But you can't make such an argument based on worldwide statistics because the data won't be comparable
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Not apples and oranges. And according to the best data available, we put six hundred thousand more people in prison each year than China does, a country with four times our population. I think that's pretty meaningful.
struggle4progress
(125,317 posts)detention" in China, the incarceration rate would increase substantially, but it's hard to get good data. And what about the folk who work under essentially slave-labor conditions in the electronics factories? Do they count as free people to you?
The object of a coherent analysis of a society should be to understand how it actually works
There certainly are oppressive mechanisms in the US system, which serve particular interests -- and these mechanisms are worth examining in detail. There are also brutal oppressive mechanisms in the Chinese system, which serve particular interests -- and those mechanisms are worth examining in detail. Your reliance on single statistic (incarceration rate) doesn't even begin to shed much light on the subject -- the more so, because really good comparative data isn't available. And it does make a different, if China executes 8000 people a year
MadHound
(34,179 posts)The fact that you're trying to expand the definition in regards to China is telling.
Tell you what, let's move on to a new metric, security cameras. There are thirty million security cameras in this country, the most in the world. What does that say about us? Or that we have a system in place that constantly tracks every single cell phone in this country. Or that we have a federal agency that stores every single electronic communication that we make.
I'm not arguing that China isn't a police state, I'm arguing that the US is a police state. Trying to exonerate the US by comparing it to China is not a valid tactic, it is like saying the condor is a worse bird than a vulture simply because it is the larger scavenger bird.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)look... it's obvious that you are squicked by the cameras. I get that.
Some groups, like private businesses, like to know what's going on in their vicinity. What's wrong with that?
I think it was HR 4522, under Clinton, that created the instant track on phone calls thing. It was supposedly done to stop the militias from bombing any more buildings.
Let's cut to the chase... "RISE UP, and defeat the evil running dog lackeys!"
MadHound
(34,179 posts)
But hey, thanks again for demonstrating how you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)okay...
which hip new slang? was it squicked? or was it HR 4522?
How is wanting to have cameras on my property part of the problem?
Also...
what is your solution?
You haven't mentioned that part.
Look, let's once again cut to the chase...
If you're pushing for an uprising, I have no problems with the cops taking you away. I've been involved in three riots. It's not fun. If you're pushing for the USA to become a socialist state, I'll be willing to speak against your behalf, at your trial. I wouldn't want to se this country destroyed by those deluded parasites.
So... what's your solution to this police state problem you believe we have?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)From being critical of the police state to advocating an "uprising", a "riot".
Oh, and being a socialist in this country is not a crime. You're free to be a socialist, a fascist, whatever political persuasion you wish. Perhaps you should check out that document called the Constitution again.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you are NOT free to try takeoever bids.
perhaps YOU should check it out.
Rioting isn't covered under the first amendment.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)which was the hip slang word?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)But it would be perfectly legal for a socialist to get elected to government office, from president on down.
No, rioting isn't allowed, but freedom to assemble and protest peacefully is, yet the cops come in busting heads all the time.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)is push for a socialist president... Fine. Not much of a chance of that happening (too many people with brains wandering around...)
Of COURSE you didn't directly state there should be a Socialist uprising. The Socratic method never states the end goal outright. Those of us in the supposed discussion are supposed to arrive at "the solution" by our own cognition.
So... other than supposedly wanting to start a "discussion," what's your solution?
In the event that somebody is dumb enough to start an uprising, I'll be arming the cops. I don't like people destroying cities.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Okay 3. One in KCMO, one in Lawrence and one in Manhattan, and visited one other as an observer. Now here, for whatever reason, there was a HUGE police presence, but I didn't see anybody get hurt, and Channel 9 news was there, among others.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)That's not everybody's experience. Talk to the OWS folks in NYC, or Oakland, or. . .
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)MadHound has an agenda. He hasn't shown anything but those two or three points.
I've gone to a bunch of protests, and marches, and gatherings...
and no cop trouble.
hunter
(40,329 posts)China hasn't figured out how the USA does that yet. Our leaders silence most political dissidents simply by ignoring them, and our press cooperates. No blood, no story. Say anything you want, nobody is listening.
randome
(34,845 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Selma March?
Sure... those were all ineffective.
hunter
(40,329 posts)And lots of police-state action.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Where?
Initech
(107,245 posts)OK three things if you add unparalleled profits for the criminal enterprises that run these industries. 
lastlib
(27,422 posts)War Criminals. 'Nuff said.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)three sheets of tin foil, with a little space between...
and a thermograph just shows a warm wall.
Pretty easy.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Why should we have to go through these sort of contortions in order to protect our freedom and privacy. Isn't that what our Constitution and Bill of Rights is about?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)the job of government is to promote the general welfare...
I WANT uninsured motorists off the road...
MadHound
(34,179 posts)That is what I'm talking about with the IR and various other technologies.
rDigital
(2,239 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If this is such a police state...
we are you allowed to criticize it?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)We have a sophisticated system of control. Let people say what they want, blow off steam, that doesn't matter. What matters is what people do, and as in the case of OWS, the minute you start to do something, the hammer comes down.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)How about ACTUP! How about Gay Marriage being legalized? How about the FCC now setting aside spectrum for community radio stations?
Instead of trying to use dodgy rhetorical tricks, try posting PROOF that we live in a police state. You aren't posting take it to court proof.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)What, that's not proof enough for you? Compared to what you've provided, it is a wealth of proof. Why don't you try offering up some, even one, link to back up your position.
randome
(34,845 posts)So....
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Nor welder's foil, or Saran wrap...
I guess that's a sign we don't live in a police state.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I can buy industrial chemicals in bulk, and no one bats an eye.
Another sign of we are not a police state.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)here have, they resist by doing exactly what this commenter is doing. They become inventive and devise ways to protect themselves from the prying eyes of oppressive governments and always have.
randome
(34,845 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)lived in police states eventually reached, they are devising ways to foil government spying on their activities.
I often wondered when that would begin to happen here. That is a sure sign that people are realizing they no longer are free from government intrusion into their personal lives. Clear violations of the Constitution, but we have laws now that overrule the Constitution.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)And the far-right wants longer and longer prison sentences across the board. Our prisons are overflowing and we are spending billions on this. But the right-wing doesn't care. They want more and more longer mandatory sentences.
I dont get the point of putting people in jail because they were smoking weed or doing prostitution. They get out and just right back to it. This country has a really stupid criminal justice system. There is so much waste of money and resources on things that solve absolutely nothing.
If you want to stop drugs, stop the traffickers and help the users. This strategy of trying to stop demand by punishing the users has been going on now for decades and it hasn't stopped a damn thing.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)In 1973, 9% of the population was using marijuana.
In 2005, 9% of the population was using marijuana.
Sounds like an abject failure, on the part of the DEA.
randome
(34,845 posts)Much of this 'get tough on crime' bullshit came out of 30 years of conservative rule. The environment is changing but I'll grant it's not fast enough.
rDigital
(2,239 posts)I'd bet that most of our prisoners are non-violent drug related offenders. The prison population would drop quite a bit with legalized dope and no more drug related black market violence. It would also have the added benefit of de-fanging the Mexican Cartels overnight.
defacto7
(14,159 posts)do you actually think they will go down without a hell of a fight? I don't.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)The more bodies in prison, the more profits are made. Big Banks, like Wells Fargo are investing in the For Profit Prison Industry which pushes for legislation to criminalize behavior that normally would not be considered criminal or prison worthy.
The far right morons are merely stooges in this for profit game of incarcerating, right now, 1 in every 100 Americans. They cheer on the laws they think will never affect them, since most of them are aimed at the poor and minorities, the least powerful people in our society and the least likely to be able to fight back. Far right wingers are not going to be opposing the jailing of minorities eg and can be counted on to support these laws manufactured by Big Corps.
Wells Fargo Now A Major Shareholder In For-Profit Prisons
At the end of 2011, Wells Fargo was the company’s second-largest investor, holding 4.3 million shares valued at more than $72 million. By March 2012, its stake had grown to more than4.4 million shares worth $86.7 million.
Unfortunately, it’s a safe investment. While a 50 percent growth in the number of human beings our society cages in rape factories may sound impressive – or perhaps the word is “revolting” – a study released last year by the Justice Policy Institute found that the private prison industry grew by more than 350 percent over the last decade and a half. While other industries of course benefit from state-granted privileges, companies like GEO profit by the state literally kidnapping and handing them clientèle, particularly as of late about-to-be-deported immigrants ....
We currently have one quarter of the entire world's incarcerated people. We have only 300,000 citizens. There are over 7 billion people on this planet. That is a shocking statistic. And so long as Democrats do not stand up against this vile system, who else is going to stop it?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)porphyrian
(18,530 posts)1. Use media and election campaign propaganda to demonize a minority (not necessarily racial, but that works) group within the population with which the greatest block of voters do not particularly identify or of which they do not particularly approve. Scare them - what these people are doing will kill children and destroy America! Get hardliners elected to office.
2. Make laws that criminalize the large segment of the population you have just demonized. Make the penalties harsh - mandatory minimums, zero tolerance, whatever. Remove a judge's ability to soften the sentence in those laws with these mandatory penalties, so that there is a guaranteed influx of prisoners into the system.
3. Allow prisons to get overcrowded to generate demand for more prisons. Release criminals without mandatory minimums early to accomodate this, even if their charges are rape or murder, further scaring the public into supporting building more prisons, even though the money is not there to do so. As a solution, privatize priisons, allowing for-profit corporate prisons to take the extra prisoner load.
4. Now that there is a profit motive for keeping people imprisoned, lobby for more criminalization, harsher mandatory penalties, tough-on-crime candidates, etc.
5. Repeat.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Twice the number of our nearest competitor, Great Britain.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4236865
rDigital
(2,239 posts)England is just a little bigger than the state of Ohio. We've got a ways to go before we have that kind of saturation. They have us beat hands down on per capita CCTV cameras. Let's not let it get that far.
Logical
(22,457 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I think cars could be equipped with cameras that upload data in real-time to your Facebook account -in a private page, of course.
That would help stem the abuse.
Logical
(22,457 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)It is the fact that the police face few, if any consequences for their abuse. They can shoot a man in cold blood and nothing happens to them.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)WHY aren't you offering a solution?
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Cameras, cameras everywhere. Every intersection, every store. And this year, they're going in cars, too.
Operation Northwoods
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)The police are completely ineffective except for radar speed traps and expired license tags.
defacto7
(14,159 posts)Not anymore. I try to give as much befit of the doubt as I can but things are just too weird.
This I believe: The right will not give in to an open society without a huge, nasty, fight.
Where I live right now... every day... yes, every single day there are guys who make the rounds by my house in Salt Lake City who are, I kid you NOT... they are spying on the neighbourhood probably because it's within a reasonably close proximity to heavily guarded Mormon stuff which it is. Some wear black suits, some a plain clothed, they all have ear phones with wires, sometimes there are vans with dish antennas... and these guys sit there for hours... I am NOT TROLLING!! this is a FACT. I would never have believed this could happen in the US... But I am either psychotic or it is what it is. It seems like the Stasi of old East Germany.
OK... this is the Internet and people say crazy things for the hell of it. I am not! You will believe it, you will laugh or you will think. It's up to you.
Do I go along with all the stuff the OP says? Probably not, but there is a point to be had there. Police State? I can't say it's not. It depends on definitions..... from my perspective... hell, I don't know anymore. What I see looks like sci-fi... or weird 1950's FBI TV.
Why am I writing this stuff? Now, I have the credibility of a snail. I don't care. If I'm nuts, it doesn't matter. If I am right.... you will eventually figure it out.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And I'm in Utah too...and there's some really spooky stuff that happens here. Like you, I often find myself thinking, "I did really just see/hear that?"
I've had some other DUers corroborate stuff I've seen here, so that makes me feel like I'm not hallucinating it.
If we are a police state, this is one of the places it's the most pervasive and powerful. The red here is so widespread it's like a bloodstain.
defacto7
(14,159 posts)Hydra
(14,459 posts)I've never seen the police things, but I've seen FLDS type things that creep me out.
It's a scary thing to wake up and realize you're surrounded by monsters.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)The unbelievable amount of force used by the police against Occupy is well documented.
We now return you to American Idol.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)What about Occupy New Haven?
No trouble with the cops, until a local crack head tried to make the Occupy area their home. We called the cops, and they take said crack head away.
Look..protestors, however noble their goal DO NOT have the right to block a business. If you want to disobey laws, that's on you. (That's why it's called "civil disobediance..."
Are some areas bad? YES (Oakland comes to mind...) Does that mean the whole system is lousy? Facts not in evidence.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)A collaborative investigation launched by law clinics at four top universities has assembled damning evidence of widespread misconduct.
Veterans assaulted with truncheons, women dragged through the streets by their hair, grandmothers pepper sprayed in the face, peaceful protestors bludgeoned while sitting. Sound like something authorities in Egypt, Tunisia or Syria would order and condone? Think again. It's happening here in the US.
Better-off Occupy Wall Street protesters are learning something about the relationship between citizen and state
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/violent-pictures-from-occupy-wall-street-protests
Police Violence on Occupy Protestors Is Unhealthy for Democracy
In day of protests, "Occupy Wall Street" faces police violence
The list goes on and on. Should we believe what we see, or should we believe what 1%/bankster supporter/apologists tell us? Rewriting history doesn't work on progressives. Progressive activists actually experience history firsthand, and we take pictures, and videos so we can refute the RW bullshit that we know will inevitably be coming our way.
I've been involved with Occupy almost from the beginning, and have personally seen several violent unprovoked police attacks on Occupiers in 2 cities.
This is real world reality, not the reality they tell you about on TV.
Throughout the US, the Occupy movement has had repeated clashes with police, sparking accusations of heavy-handedness
randome
(34,845 posts)Getting arrested to clog the system and showcase its deficiencies? It used to be.
Abuse is another matter but that is a small proportion of protesters. It should not be treated lightly, either, but neither is it evidence of a police state.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)7396 arrests out of how many protesters?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)A close friend of mine is a minister that brought food to Zucotti park, during the original fun.
I couldn't get a hard number on how many were there. I can't get a hard number on the actual people involved in the protests. (Obviously, it's more than 7396.)
Look... One of the problems with protesting, is that thing called "civil disobediance." That means you are breaking the law, at least some knowledge of the consequences.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 1, 2012, 02:42 PM - Edit history (2)
draining process. Honestly, no offense, because this is a widespread phenomenon, but many people who have not been arrested and gone through the processes of the legal system have what is, from my POV, a dangerous naivete about the overall fairness and workings of the system. It's not fun for non-criminals to be arrested, processed, and caged. It's almost always a traumatic experience. TV does not give folks the real big picture.
Generally, protesters get arrested because we see a desperate need for change and take part in actions intended to expose injustices in order to make changes necessary to bring about an effective democratic process in which all citizens are treated as equal to one another. The 1% does not want justice and equality, so they have the police control us through overwhelming numbers and unwarranted violent aggression. Since we don't shoot back, we depend on decent people to take a stand on our, (and their) behalf. Unfortunately, either widespread unwarranted acts of police aggression committed against innocent people seems to have become acceptable to decent, freedom loving people, or maybe there just aren't that many people left in this country who really give a shit about things like democracy, liberty, justice, and equality.
This is definitely evidence of a police state, but may not be considered evidence of a police state by those who support the 1% status quo in all things, and who do not feel a need to address widespread injustices and inequalities, because they are fully content with being ruled by wealthy private interests in a pseudo-democratic police state.
Freedom cannot protect itself from the 1% through current democratic processes. Those of us who understand this know that we need to take action to try to salvage what we can, or, consequently, all of us will lose it forever.
The iron-fisted, overwhelming jackbooted police control methods and Constitutional violations committed by the police, with impunity, against Occupiers, have made it clear that any type of resistance against 1% control of our government and our lives will be met with brutal overwhelming force and numbers from the police agency of the 1% police state.
Besides that, Patriot Act, the NDAA, and the impunity with which the government spies on us, are all the proof that I need to confirm that I am, indeed, living in a police state.
http://www.aclu.org/
American Civil Liberties Union
.........................The Terrorists Are Winning.
..............
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) 7300 + arrests... out of how many protesters?
2.) NONE of these events happened in New Haven. Why?
3.) A police state wouldn't even have arrested them. They would either have shot them, or just showed up one night with a black van, and quietly taken them away.
I'm with Occupy, but I avoid socialist confrontation nonsense.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)My wife reads the DU, too. Now I will have a HELL of a time getting let out to an Occupy protest the next time one comes to the West coast. 
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)About a woman who was kicked in the genitals by the cops. She died. Happened a couple of days ago. Just the latest in a long line of abuse.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)to be a police state, you need a little more than that...
They ought to give the kicking cop a life sentence, i general pop.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Please note the sentence at the top, "This is an incomplete list." Yep, far, far from being complete.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)one of the cases stood out, at first read. The cops shut a drunk who was brandishing a water nozzle. Ever hear of OODA? survival reflexes?
Maybe the problem is the definition. For my money, "Police State" is when you:
-have to have travel passes
-get ration food coupons
-can be black-bagged at a moment's notice
-can be killed with impunity by the state, with no recourse
What's your solution?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Papers please police stops. Sounds fairly equivalent to travel passes to me.
Sorry, but food rationing has nothing to do with a police state, just one that is short on food resources.
Black bagged at a moment's notice, hmm, checked out the NDAA? You can get killed at a moments notice. But thousands in this country have been black bagged as well. Check out the testimony from the '76 House hearings on the CIA.
And again, check out the NDAA about the state killing its citizens with impunity. Hey, Obama draws up his own personal kill list each and every week.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)1. When constutional rights are violated or written out of existence.
2. When one rougue cop goes unpunished for crimes against consitution or laws.
Only two. It's not that hard.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)What's YOUR solution?
Just sitting there criticizing doesn't help.
The whole Socratic method to "guide" people to the solution strikes you as slap-down worthy passive aggressiveness.
I thought you weren't talking to me...
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)I gave you the solution. Work on yourself. The solution is for people to get their head out of their arse. Also you say the burden of proof is on the accuser. So prove that the studies are not worth salt what ever that means. Such b.s. and its you who are the profound passive aggressive trouble maker. With nothing to back up your claims.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)so...
You cite a link... with no mention of peer review or validity, and I'm just supposed to automatically buy in?
Work on yourself. Actually, I AM working on myself. This is why I don't buy in to socialist drivel. (Also, I'm working on my welding and flute playing. Not germane to the original topic... but you DID say I should work on myself.)
If you are going to cite a study, then the study ought to have peer review, otherwise...
I could create a study form scratch, that shows all socialists are child molesters. If you doubt my study, I can state YOU have to prove me wrong.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)And you proved the burden is not on the accuser. You're saying the burden is on someone else. Mr .or Mrs. Peer. You're a riot because you're unable to see your fallacy. Yes I know what a peer review is. Do you know what putting the burden on someone else is? Cheap and lazy. Saying the burden of proof is on the accuser then saying a report is useless without a peer review then sloughing it on someone else makes you full of it. It's your accusation so prove that the studies are false. Now unless stand by your beliefs and hold true to them besides sloughing off, your response is more hot air and all you've posted here in the op's post are falsehoods.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)NONE of you has proved a Police State exists in the USA.
Hell, the mere fact that you can post your screeds, shows it doesn't exist.
If we are going to go with mere hearsay (and that's what "studies" with no review are), then we got:
-thousands of UFOs in the Roswell area
-Disney and Kennedy are in cold storage, over in Disney World.
-Nessie's pulling tour boats in Scotland.
You know what expecting someone to blindly believe radical beliefs (like the USA is a Police State) shows? It shows Cult-like behavior.
OP has fessed up to pushing "to initiating a conversation about the subject." Further, OP has openly admired the Socratic method. OP has ALSO stated that car insurance shouldn't be mandatory, and disparaged the idea of using security cams for theft deterrance.
OP has an agenda. Personally, I think OP's pushing to rouse the troops. If OP manages to realize his wish, I'll be arming the cops, and having a beer with them. I like safe streets. I like not having about my family, or my friends losing all of their possessions or livelihood via rioting.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)Rioting you mean demonstrations, protesting and any defiance of government. Like this countries rioters (traitors) against England during the revolution. You're a Tory a loyalist to the regime. Your type said this crap then and you say it now. I know what you are and those like you. This experiment in democracy was to continue to change and evolve. That did not include infringing on the constitution. Not freedoms or rights. As a Loyalist you will refuse to acknowledge any infractions on these matters. That is what Loyalists do.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Rioting you mean demonstrations, protesting and any defiance of government.
No. I mean rioting. Nice try at putting words in my mouth, though. A protest is legal, and doesn't do damage to property. Riots cause damage and death.
Like this countries rioters (traitors) against England during the revolution.
Learn to use some punctuation.
You're a Tory a loyalist to the regime. Your type said this crap then and you say it now.
I know what you are and those like you. This experiment in democracy was to continue to change and evolve. That did not include infringing on the constitution. Not freedoms or rights. As a Loyalist you will refuse to acknowledge any infractions on these matters. That is what Loyalists do.
As an intelligent human being with a gram of sense, I'm laughing at your purple prose. Did you manage to pass High School?
1.) You seem to be addicted to ad hominem attacks.
2.) If you push for a riot, then you'll get what you deserve: arrest, sentencing, and jail time (if you are lucky.)
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)cops are as human as the rest of us
he lost his temper
doesn't make her innocent
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And sadly, people are paying the same sort of price on a regular basis. Right above your post is a lengthy, but very incomplete list that I posted.
And cops are supposed to be trained not to lose their temper. It is part of the job.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Cops are human, just people, like you and me, except they feel a duty to protect our communities from those who'd wreak havoc on them. Hold them to a high standard? Yes. Damn them all because one or two might break their regulations? No.
It can't be required to be inhuman.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And yes, they are held to a higher standard because they are trained, and by law required, to protect the innocent, not be judge, jury and executioner.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)It is a rare thing. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it isn't one or two a week.
But let's assume it was.
What percentage of arrests per week cross that line?
My bet is less than a tenth of a percent.
They are the bad cops you are talking about.
Yes, they are out there.
No, they aren't representative of the men and women who'll come to you when you call because someone has broken into your home, having no idea of what they're walking into.
The OP seems to bash the very idea of incarceration. And the very idea of law enforcement.
People are in jail and it's wrong!
Ridiculous.
Some people belong in jail.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Also, he seems to feel folks should be allowed to drive, even if they can't pay for car insurance.
So if someone slams into another car??? Who picks up the tab?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)and they are immediately dismissed as "whatever, but anyway, that doesn't count, because it doesn't fit into my status quo belief system, blah blah blah".
Same old unsupportable pro-Wall St. rhetoric we've been dealing with since Sept 17, 2011.
Here's some more examples to add to yours, not that they will mean anything to anyone committed to defending the sanctity, righteousness, and the divine right of rule and privilege of the Wall St. bankster status quo at all cost.
(Keep in mind, these are only a few of thousands of similar incidents. These are only some of the very few that actually got caught on camera/video. For every incident of police brutality that got caught on camera or video, there are fifty more that did not.)
?t=1346608575
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1249122
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)pig lovers should be thrown in jail.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It means there is a government of men and not laws, and no rights to hearing, counsel, etc.
If people are in jail here, there was at least due process and an opportunity to appeal - no system is perfect, but the US is not a "police state."
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Have you ever been in our court system, watched what goes on there? It certainly isn't due process, more like sausage making.
But I agree, a police state is more than incarceration rates. So, let's start off with the fact that there are thirty million security cameras in our country, twice the number of any other country. Or the fact that every single cell phone is tracked to within a few feet of its actual location, in our pockets. Or the fact that we are regularly eavesdropped upon ala ATT.
You wish me to continue?
treestar
(82,383 posts)you can challenge that and if the court disagrees with you, you can appeal.
No system is perfect, but people in jail here did have the right to jury trial by a trial of their peers, the right to counsel, to exclusion of evidence obtained by illegal searches and seizures, they do not have to be witnesses against themselves etc.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And tracking proliferation. Please, don't try to change the subject because you can't defend it.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)
When I bring up the good governor with people in the legal profession here on Detroit, they say "Who?"
So, yes, the media are doing their part. The People-citizen-consumers, mostly, don't know what they're missing.
hunter
(40,329 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Know your BFEE: Bush and His Crooks with Badges Sent an Innocent Man to Jail
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2968990
bernie1
(1 post)Police state has been here for some time. Consider this judicial suit in Texas where the federal judge threatened the litigant with "death" in a civil lawsuit.
The case involves a lawyer billing scam supervised by a federal judge. In the apparent scam, a Dallas business owner (the "victim" had all possessions seized, without any notice or hearing, prohibited him from hiring a lawyer, and essentially ordered him into a bizarre civil lockdown. The litigant has been under this civil lockdown order for nearly two years, and is prohibited from having a lawyer, from owning any possessions, from freely traveling, from working, etc... How many Civil Rights violations can one court treat on?
http://LawInjustice.com has details about this disturbing case and some quotes from the judge:
THE COURT: "I'm telling you don't screw with me. You are a fool, a fool, a fool, a fool to screw with a federal judge, and if you don't understand that, I can make you understand it. I have the force of the Navy, Army, Marines and Navy behind me."
THE COURT: "You realize that order is an order of the Court. So any failure to comply with that order is contempt, punishable by lots of dollars, punishable by possible jail, death"
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And btw, that case is f***ing disturbing...but I was in family court when I was a kid, and I saw how fast and loose they played with the law.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Wake the hell up, America. There should be questioning and confrontation about the police state, the surveillance state, the surveillance center in Utah, the destruction of our Fourth Amendment rights, and for-profit prisons every time a politician takes the stage.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)I'm pissed about the Datacenter here, especially after reading the purpose for it. And all anyone can say here in Utah is, "It brings us jobs..."
Ok...so you want a job building the machine that executes you? We may as well skip to the end here...
Rex
(65,616 posts)The plutocracy got what it wanted, a private army to defend the 1%.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If the government is all about the thermographs...
WHY are they paying folks to weatherize/insulate houses? Wouldn't that preclude the use of thermographs?
KG
(28,792 posts)Response to KG (Reply #112)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
webbduckfoot
(3 posts)If this isn't a police state it is sure heading in that direction. There is something wrong when I can get arrested for carrying a certain type or length of knife on my person.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)it's called "voting" and "public safety."
Response to webbduckfoot (Reply #114)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)I hear a lot of people objecting. I read about it, and I even write about it.
Should civilians take the police on in a gunfight in American cities? Who will win? The so-called militia with their fantasy tactics or well trained riot police with tanks and tear gas and rubber bullets and real ammo?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)the premise that the US is a police state in this thread, and the argument put forward time and again in threads about the 2nd amendment and how the police and military should be the only people with firearms is interesting..
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)China is notorious for on-the-spot executions.
But we're rapidly becoming like them. Our law enforcement system needs to be rebooted. FROM SCRATCH.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)The US tries not to let them run wild.
I don't have a problem with it.
I value law and order and respect the brave members of law enforcement for putting their lives on the line to uphold the law. Must be the most thankless job on the planet. And one of the most necessary.
Don't break the law. Don't go to jail.
What is the problem?
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)A rough paraphrasing of a Ben Franklin quote. Go look it up.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)Franklin was referring to the collective giving up liberty. It had nothing to do with not having criminal laws or stripping of civil rights from individuals who violate those laws..
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I think that they don't care about the distinction.
I've asked OP for his solution more than a few times, with no result.
Response to Skip Intro (Reply #155)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)who is in prison was allowed both of these rights you are quoting. Once convicted and sent to prison most of their rights are forfeited.
Response to pipoman (Reply #195)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)is occupied by people who have never seen the realities of prison inmates, their crimes, and the societal remedy for violation of criminal laws. I don't disagree with the idea of decriminalization of most drugs. That said, the vast majority of prison inmates, beside those in for non-violent drug crimes, deserve to be there...and that said, there are many who happen to have enough money to avoid prison who should be there too..
Response to pipoman (Reply #238)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)is someone who makes a demonstrably fictitious post, then argues it as fact with every fiber of their being....now that's bizarre..
Response to pipoman (Reply #267)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)read for themselves. Why not just admit you were wrong and move on..it really is that simple, instead you continue to proclaim you said something you didn't say at all...you stated fiction or a lie...at first I thought you were simply misinformed and would correct the misinformation you posted when confronted with the truth, instead you have posted many. many posts trying to say you were right when you were obviously wrong...Just for fun, here is what you said again, A lie at worst, a mistake at best....which is it?
you do realize the majority of those "criminals" in jail are incarcerated for Simple marijuana possession, right?
Why can't you simply admit this is not factual?
Response to pipoman (Reply #298)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Bestiality is pretty bizarre.
Luckily, we aren't talking about pigs.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #270)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)We've gone from looking at your silly math inaccuracies...
to dramatic quotes from novels.
THIS is supposed to convince us to follow your revolt?
Response to Skip Intro (Reply #155)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I have heard variations and believe it to be complete hogshit, I could be convinced however...
I believe drugs should be decriminalized as they are in Portugal..drug laws aside, what other criminal laws do you believe shouldn't be punished?
Response to pipoman (Reply #197)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to bupkus (Reply #214)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
that isn't what you said. You do know the difference between "arrest" and "incarcerate", no?...Never mind, you obviously don't. Like I said, your statement,
"Skip Intro, you do realize the majority of those "criminals" in jail are incarcerated for
Simple marijuana possession, right? "War on Drugs" ring a bell?"
Your source says,
"Marijuana arrests accounted for 47.4% of the drug abuse arrests."
Not 47% of ALL arrests, and certainly not, "the majority of those "criminals" in jail are incarcerated for Simple marijuana possession"
See the difference? No, what you said in post #189, as I said, is hogshit.
Response to pipoman (Reply #197)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
you really aren't willing to acknowledge that your statement in post #189 is fiction? Nothing you have posted even comes close to collaborating your fictitious statement...
RZM
(8,556 posts)Over 50 percent of prisoners are not in for marijuana possession. Please back that up or delete it.
Response to RZM (Reply #201)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
RZM
(8,556 posts)The number you gave for drug incarcerations is far less than half the total number of incarcerated people. And that number is for all drugs and drug crimes to boot.
Try again.
Response to RZM (Reply #229)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)the majority of the total incarcerated population is NOT for marijuana offenses... using your own link here...
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #242)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)31% times 41% doesn't make up a majority.
multiplying those two numbers together, you get about 12%. That's not a majority of the prison population.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #251)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)so you DON'T have numbers to support that majority you claimed.
you guys really need to get it together.
Why would I support you?
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #258)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)For me, it's a pretty simple thing...
Burden of proof, and all that.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #260)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you post a bad analysis of your own link, and you yell at me... and I'm the one reminding you of Rmoney and the blue-eyed twit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection]
I keep asking for proof of accusations, and I'm the cause of the republican national heist.
Okay chuckles, one more time, because I like your puppy-like smile...
32% times 41% equals about 12% of the total. That's not a majority of the total. That's a large chunk of the total.
We're progressive. That doesn't mean we're going to automatically follow a wannbe demagogue over the first rousing speech.
Get it together.
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Less than 1/3 of ALL prisioners are in jail for drug offenses. So how how can statement the "majority of criminals in jail are incarcerated for simple marijuana possession" be true? The majority of DRUG offenders in jail are from marijuana, but there is big difference between saying that and saying ALL. No one is a secret Republican trying to defend the drug war, but you need to be accurate in your statements.
Response to SpartanDem (Reply #254)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Holy shit...
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)seem to have problems with math, logic, and civics.
12% is the new majority number.
They are right, and the rest of us are wrong.
and the ever popular...
Drug arrests prove a Police State.
If these guys had been with me in South Africa, and dealt with the cops there, they'd be tracking down our cops and frenching them. On a daily basis.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #269)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)that's a large block, NOT a majority of the population.
Your numbers (31% of 41%) don't add up to 50+%.
Do I really have to teach you math???
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #288)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If your first number is "drug related crimes excluding pot" THEN you add those numbers...
Otherwise, you MULTIPLY those two numbers. Get it?
you don't get 71%.
Even if we only use the larger number (41%), that's not a majority.
Get....It...Together...
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #301)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)by your own statements, you don't have more than half the elements.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)The majority of criminals in jail are in jail for "simple marijuana possession?"
You gotta show me some stats on that my friend.
Response to Skip Intro (Reply #210)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
your level of reading comprehension is humorous..
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)There must be something wrong with us. We seem to be the most criminally-minded country on earth, if you look at our imprisonment statistics.
Or maybe we tend over-criminalize everything?
I'm inclined to go with the latter.
What is the problem, you ask? The problem is we can't seem to find a way to deal with our social problems except by throwing people in jail. That's a sad state of affairs for the land of the free.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Remember when the "cops" were the good guys?
All this privatization of our prisons, where the guv-mint must GUARANTEE 90%
OCCUPANCY, or else face penalties i.e. they must STILL pay as though there
actually WERE 90% occupancy. So taxpayers are put on the hook to insure
their own incarceration when it's "their turn" to do their duty to their country
by making sure the guv-mint get's its money's worth.
It's a fucking crazy country we are living in my friend. 
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)It's 95 degrees outside, I think its hot, most sane people do. It doesn't matter that it is 115 degrees in timbuktu. The fact that it is hotter in Timbuktu is of no f**king consequence. It's is f**king hot where I am at. Damn insane irrational thinking. It gets old. The OP is right. Police state is right. Rights are being ripped to shreds. Things have changed dramatically in the last 40 year's. The persons to hold accountable for all that is happening to this country is all around you. Your fellow Americans. You can even witness it here.
Response to MadHound (Original post)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)
DissidentVoice
(813 posts)I live within walking distance of the Canadian border. I used to go over quite a lot; to see a good friend, go shopping (you can get books there - especially political ones - that are hard to find here) or just for the hell of it.
Since the UnPatriot Act finalized the transition to a police state, I go over much less.
I have rarely had a problem with Canadian border officers. 98% of them I've encountered are polite, professional and want to speed you on your way.
It's coming BACK that I almost always run into problems. Since 9/11 US CBP has hired a lot of wannabe hard-asses who probably couldn't get past the intake interview for a local police department. They treat you like you've committed a crime by just leaving the USA for a few hours and do the full KGB routine on you (I haven't run into that so much from the older, more experienced officers), knowing that the Fourth Amendment does not apply to you (contrast on the Canadian side, where you are protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights And Freedoms the instant you enter Canadian territory) and that they have GOT you until such time as they decide to let you go.
The only silver lining is that they cannot prohibit a United States citizen from re-entering the country...but they can sure as hell delay them!
A couple of years ago I got pulled in for a "random screening" and was there for almost three hours. During that time, where the border station had people packed in like cattle and a CBP officer was being extremely rude to a French-Canadian family from Quebec who didn't speak fluent English, my passport was confiscated, I was asked the same damn questions over and over and the CBP officer interrogating me was typing data about me into a computer, the screen of which I could not see.
When it was finally all over, another CBP officer came out of an office with my passport and said "does this belong to you?" I said "yes, thank you." He just said "you're free to go" and I left.
I have no criminal record, and have never been arrested. I held a Top Secret security clearance in the Air Force. There was no reason for me to be treated as such.
I considered calling my Representative, but she is a solidly far-right GOP Tea Party friend of Michele Bachmann so that wouldn't have got me anywhere, except to probably make my life even worse the next time I crossed.
I've been crossing the border for over 25 years and it's only been since 9/11 that it's got this bad.
If the Tea Party gets in full control of the government, I wouldn't be surprised if we will need exit visas to leave the country under the pretext of "securing the borders!"
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The defenders of the one percent do not like this thread. We are not supposed to talk about what our government is becoming.
Response to woo me with science (Reply #228)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)ones who stayed. I was originally turned on to DU in '04 and lurked for awhile and saw how much better this place was for gathering information from diverse, even obscure sources. Now it seems that all of those people have moved on leaving the remnants of traditional American authoritarianism behind to represent Democratic "liberals".
hunter
(40,329 posts)Source: KTRK
HOUSTON (KTRK) — When Occupy protesters chained themselves together with PVC pipes outside the Port of Houston in December, they might have expected to get arrested and perhaps even charged with misdemeanors for disturbing the peace, but they did not imagine getting felony charges.
That protest and those arrests led to an investigation involving Austin police officers who infiltrated the Occupy movement. They are accused of being part of the action that led to the charges.
The key question here: did Austin police officers go too far when they went undercover during the local protest?
Defense attorney Greg Gladden says they did, and the resulting charges are wrong.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014216002
Response to hunter (Reply #247)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
geez dude, you are hilarious what with your refusal to admit your fiction and all..maybe if you would have simply stated your falsehoods and replaced them with something true the conversation could have actually went somewhere..
FWIW, I have participated with hundreds of criminal defense teams including many gratis cases..card carrying member of the ACLU, and all that...
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Thank you for helping folks that needed legal teams.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)who can't support his claims...
Chuckles...
You're a lot of fun, but you need to look at your discourse...
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)It is you that are a freaking riot. Speaking of riots. LOL. Hundreds of research on innocents incarcerated and you have zilch, nada. Just your loyalist b.s.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) You seem to work by repetition of blatant assertion. That's not an argument.
2.) You haven't shown a study. You've shown an article about a study, and a dodgy one at that.
3.) "hundreds of research?"
When you can write full sentences, send me a reply.
Seriously kid, go back to school and learn some civics.
The problem with many "rise up" types, is that they are trying to portray themselves as heroes, but don't want to pay the price: risks to freedom and life.
You keep going on about loyalist. Yes, I am loyal to the United States of America. I am a citizen that votes, pays taxes, and speaks my mind. I have the right to peaceably assemble, have free speech, and I write things that question certain political groups. If that's a loyalist, what are you?
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)No facts to back up your claims of falsehood. Which make your claims bogus. Full sentences. You wouldn't comprehend them anyway and I'm losing patience giving you my time. You have never assembled in your life nor had the guts to defend your country. Your a loyalist who relies on someone else to do that for you. Kid? I'm older than you and more civicly minded than you will ever be capable of.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/25/justice/wrongful-conviction-payments/index.html
Some day your blatant disregard for the falsely accused and police and prosecutorial lies will bite you hard. I look forward to that day.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)You REALLY go in for personal attacks, don't you...
One wrongful conviction does not make a police state.
I've assembled lots of stuff: solar furnaces, a small wind tunnel, ultralights, wind mills, scratch made batteries, cooling units, etc.
doubtless you are a paragon of your community. 
So far, you've done nothing but try and insult me, in almost all of your posts. (Luckily, in order to be insulted, I'd have to respect you.) It sounds a lot like you have nothing, so you are going for full-tilt bombast.
Let me know when you've got take it to court proof that there is an actual police state. Until then...
Keep going. You're the best laugh I've had all day.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)You've played with windmills blah blah. WTF does that have to do with anything. Man you're out there. Twilight zone. Still you have nothing and you continue to disregard wrongfulness as it didn't matter. You just earned yourself the " you don't matter because a lost cause is of no consequence label". When you can mature to a level of at least having a rebuttal of your own without relying on Mr. and Mrs. Peer then maybe someone else will try. I am however done with your complete lack of comprehension and compassion. I hope you get what you deserve soon from Mr. or Mrs. Karma. So as I bid fairwell...up *****.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) so you are upset. I can see that. You've posted nothing but invective since you started here.
2.) windmills help lessen our dependence on fossil fuels, and lessen our carbon footprint.
3.) so if I don't believe you automatically, I'm not mature? You're funny.
4.) Try learning about how this country works, instead of just rabble rousing.
It really sounds like you've got nothing, other than purple prose, and rabble rousing.
Regie... Why would someone take you seriously?
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #278)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I snicker at your viewpoint.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)More realist...reality that you apparently can't wrap your brain around..
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm getting the feeling that a number of people here don't understand what LAWS are for.
They seem to be egging each other on, to have a riot.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #289)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)pigs? authoritarian control freak?
What's next, Don't Forget To Smash The State?
I'm gonna go take a cop and a lawyer out to lunch...
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #305)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I was going to take them to a BBQ place I know of.
I'll give them your regards.
Response to pipoman (Reply #271)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)save at least some credibility, eh?
Oh, and I know hundreds of keyboard commandos who do nothing but sit around in their underwear and pretend they are contributing to something...what a joke..
Response to pipoman (Reply #285)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you were sitting around in your up to the moment stylishly fashioned red day frock...
1.) Maybe you need a math refresher... If 31% of people are arrested on drug charges, that's 310 people.
1a.) If 41% of 310 arrested on drug charges, were arrested for pot, then that's 127.1 (I'll round up, and give you 128).
1b.) 128/1000 gives us 12.8% of the population. that's not a majority. Please learn math.
2.) I'll come out and say it: I respect pipoman a lot more than I'll EVER respect some wannabe Chair Guevera. Pipoman actually goes out and works with people.
3.) You've been whinging on about "The System" for a while now...
What's your solution?
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #291)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)NOT a workable solution.
Jeebers christmas!
Let me guess... after the flames die down, we'll rebuild a more sane and cohesive society, right?
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #304)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) I'm not the one saying our system's %^^$# up.
2.) I like Iceland's response. Jail the Bankers and start fresh.
No Rioting needed.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #311)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) The burden of proof is n the accuser.
2.) If you riot, I'll help the cop "quell the riot."
Bill of Rights replaced with the PATRIOT ACT? Please! I go into libraries each and every day. I look up "topics of local and national interest" each and every day. How come I haven't been picked up? How come I haven't been approached? How come I haven't even been asked pretext questions?
I own firearms, work with explosives, and play with high voltage.How come I haven't been picked up? How come I haven't been approached? How come I haven't even been asked pretext questions?
I am a pilot for small aircraft. How come I haven't been picked up? How come I haven't been approached? How come I haven't even been asked pretext questions?
My wife and I are Pagan. How come I haven't been picked up? How come I haven't been approached? How come I haven't even been asked pretext questions?
I'm a seriously intense dude with a ponytail, beard, and darkish skin. How come I haven't been picked up? How come I haven't been approached? How come I haven't even been asked pretext questions?
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #304)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)So if I don't agree with you, I'm a running dog lackey of the state?
I figured you guys were pushing for this stuff...
Look, to lay it out on the table:
1.) Rioting destroys communities.
2.) Your "Serious Revolt" will cause people to leave the area of Rioting, and (from recent history) not come back for a minimum of 20+ years (look at Philadelphia, look at Detroit, etc).
3.) The gains made by Rioters are largely symbolic, with few real gains.
4.) In the event of a bunch of numb-nuts rioting, I'll be on the line, protecting my community from the insane people.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #315)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you miss a point.
I live in an inner city. I've helped set up two grocery stores, here in the city.
Again... I'll put it out there...
1.) you want to have a Riot, fine... beware the consequences.
2.) One of the consequences in someone like me, with a gun.
3.) May I tactfully suggest you find something other than rioting, to make your point.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #319)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)That's all you have?
The title states an advocation of violent revolt.
The rest reads a bit like a pean to maoist tactics.
Yes, I own a firearm or two. That won't save civilization, but it might stop a looter or two...
What WILL save civilization is groups like the Makers, us Community supported Agriculture nuts, home built power enthusiasts, etc.
You're pushing for riots. Why would anyone want to work with you? In riots, houses and businesses get burned. Then those that can, move out...
and NEVER help the riot area again...
You might want to read a little history. (Besides Marxist {spits on ground} fairy-tales)
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #329)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) Looking up that article, Hedges talked about deliberating violent revolt. That usually includes riots.
2.) Am I a capitalist? If you mean I like making money...then yes I am a capitalist. If you mean I like investing in things I believe in... then yes, I am a capitalist. If you mean do I like rampant speculation, pushing for off-shoring jobs...then no, I am not.
3.) Economic Marxism clearly doesn't work. Yes, yes, yes... I've heard the usual litany of reasons it didn't work... I call BS on all of it.
4.) Cultural Marxism is even more stupid than the economic version. Both versions rely on cheap rhetorical tricks and hand waving, to cover the facts... that it clearly doesn't work, and was designed by the mentally ill. (althusser being only the first in a LOOOONG line of nut bars.)
5.) I read history too. It encourages me to keep Marxists OUT of any group I'm part of. (If you show up at my lab, you will be escorted out, via taser, if need be.) I just finished a 70 page thesis, about one group of technically inclined people, who had to deal with multiple incursions of would-be Marxists. Personally, I would have applied pepper spray, and then reported them as cultists that were disturbing the peace.
6.) Marx's original work advocated for the violent overthrow of established society. The ISR advocated propaganda tricks, to inculcate people into Marxism, while they weren't aware of the process. Personally, I believe Marxists are right up there with dealers in hard drugs, fringe militia, and child molesters.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #332)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Response to pipoman (Reply #293)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)from one that can't fathom a simple math problem.
I you hate the system so much, go live in a tree.
Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #314)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If I'm against violent revolt, I must be rich?
Dude, a riot isn't just a super-charged peaceful protest. Go READ about the damage they do... ( the Kerner commission report is pretty good).
Your rhetoric is showing through.
WHY would you want to tear down a city? That's what a riot does.