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[jsr]

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[Logical]

4. What the FUCK is wrong with you? A kid died and you make a joke. n-t

[Whisp]

6. omg that is a horrible thing to say

wtf!

[Aristus]

2. I guess he won't do that anymore...

[Logical]

5. Classy. n-t

[demmiblue]

7. I know.

I'm thinking most of us did stupid stuff when we were kids.

Very sad to see some of these reactions on DU.

[RKP5637]

31. Kids don't always think things out at that age. It's part of how the brain develops. It is sad and

pathetic to see some people on DU trying to make a joke of it ...

[ailsagirl]

48. It really is

[arely staircase]

75. agreed

eom

[dixiegrrrrl]

207. Sometimes one does not always have to SAY what they are thinking, for sure.

Are the parents going to any less devastated because of the way they lost their son?
don't think so.

[Logical]

8. I bet most people think you are a jerk. Just a guess making fun of a kid dying.

[Mmm_Bacon]

22. Hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times...

[RetroLounge]

26. Careful, you've outraged the outrage-junkies

Or concerned the concern-junkies.

or something.



RL

[Logical]

109. Well, you tend to support the assholes who make fun of a kid dying. See the difference?

[RetroLounge]

119. No, why don't you point out the difference

then we can all defer to your great wisdom and concern...

or not.



RL

[Aristus]

47. I supposed I should have followed that up with

"What did he think was going to happen?"

I feel bad for his family. But, in all candor, what did he think was going to happen?

[niyad]

54. in all candor, he probably wasn't thinking.

you feel bad for his family, yet your reaction is. . tacky is the kindest word I can use here.

[ann---]

78. That's the point...

He DIDN'T think - that's the way teenagers behave. Sometimes the consequences are horrible - as in this case. I feel so bad for his parents.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. I don't know what to say...........

I mean...

[GCP]

9. A young life was ended because kids do dumb things like this

And two of the first responders thought it would be funny to make wise-cracks. How many of us have done really stupid things at that age?
I wish people would have some class.

[seabeyond]

10. yes. nt

[RetroLounge]

28. Yes, because wise-cracks on a member-only discussion board is so fucking awful

Thanks for your concern.

RL

[ann---]

79. It is when most people

on this forum have spent the day bashing Romney for HIS lack of compassion in his reply to the woman in Louisiana who lost her home.

[Raine]

95. DU was full of compassion shown to the guy killed by the bear a few days ago ... NOT

he got the Darwin award again and again. Why expect compassion here toward another who did an equally stupid thing.

[webbduckfoot]

110. Compassion

I'm starting to see some posts here that sound almost as callous as Republicans.

[RetroLounge]

121. Well, there's the door.

b'bye

RL

[renate]

132. I agree

Welcome to DU. Most people here are compassionate so I hope you'll stay. I'm just so sickened by some of what I'm seeing but it's usually a nice and kind place here.

[darkangel218]

166. exactly + 1

[RetroLounge]

120. Yeah, right, those two things are exactly the same as a message board comment.

RL

[ailsagirl]

49. or some empathy

[Zalatix]

50. +100!

[renie408]

70. You know what I wish?

I wish I would win the lottery. I could really use that. And I also wish that I could lose 45 pounds without having to exercise and diet.

*sigh*

[Alduin]

11. Darwin Award winner.

[kentauros]

15. I'll be so happy

when the "Darwin Award" meme dies. It's the epitome of callousness and anti-compassion.

[Alduin]

21. I'll be so happy

when common sense is instilled in every individual. That way, senseless and stupid deaths like this won't happen anymore.

The whole "we all did stupid things when we were that age" meme is bullshit. If we all did something stupid like this kid, we'd all be dead, wouldn't we?

[TwilightGardener]

23. Most of us survive our stupid years. It's luck. I was a passenger in a car once with

a friend who had just gotten her license (I didn't have mine yet)--we were coming home from an amusement park at night, and my friend became confused and mistook a highway off-ramp for an on-ramp. How did I survive that? Luck. How did I survive being drunk and climbing onto the steep roof of my apartment building during a party when I was 20? Luck. None of us are, or were, any better than this child, and it's ridiculous to feel superior to a kid who was out having fun with his friends and made a bad split-second decision.

[Alduin]

24. So millions of people who survive past that age it's because of luck?

No. Maybe some of us didn't do stupid shit like this kid did.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Tell yourself whatever you need to, buddy.

[Alduin]

29. I didn't stick my head out of a hatch on a bus...

and get it pancaked on the side of a bridge.

[TwilightGardener]

30. Well, then, you are awesome.

[RKP5637]

71. See post #67. I sent to them an article on teenage brain development. Maybe that "might" help

them understand what happened.

[Comrade Grumpy]

32. There are callous assholes everywhere.

[BanzaiBonnie]

36. You sound as above it all as that fellow Mitt Romney

If you want to call any of us concern trolls or any other name calling you see fit, then do it so you can feel better about yourself.

[Alduin]

85. Oh yes...

I say someone died because of doing something stupid and suddenly I'm Mitt Romney.

[RKP5637]

67. Here is an interesting read ... "The Teen Brain: It's Just Not Grown Up Yet"

"It's the part of the brain that says: 'Is this a good idea? What is the consequence of this action?' " Jensen says. "It's not that they don't have a frontal lobe. And they can use it. But they're going to access it more slowly."

That's because the nerve cells that connect teenagers' frontal lobes with the rest of their brains are sluggish. Teenagers don't have as much of the fatty coating called myelin, or "white matter," that adults have in this area.

Think of it as insulation on an electrical wire. Nerves need myelin for nerve signals to flow freely. Spotty or thin myelin leads to inefficient communication between one part of the brain and another.

A Partially Connected Frontal Lobe

More at: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

[Alduin]

84. Again

I didn't do stupid shit like that when I was 16. I had common sense. I did my homework all the time and didn't do risky behavior.

[RKP5637]

106. Your brain might have developed better synaptic connections at an earlier age. This guy might

not have been that lucky.

[Odin2005]

126. We Aspies are infamous for lacking common sense and when I was 16...

...I still had enough sense not to do idiotic stuff like this.

Yes, teens have immature pre-frontal lobes, but doing that kind of risky behavior is not simply immaturity, it's a personality defect and that type of person will still be doing risky behavior as an adult, and then end up in prison or dead.

[RKP5637]

211. Yep, I recall well at that age knowing some kids that were choosing some bad

paths. Some of them are dead now.

[Alduin]

89. I don't have compassion for people who died from something that could've easily been avoided.

Like, for example, people dying because they hit bullets with hammers, put fireworks down their pants, or stick their head out of a bus window and allowing it to get pancaked on the side of a bridge.

Just ignore the fact that I participate in an animal rescue for small dogs, support causes that help the poor, or passionately lobby my student government to do something about the insane rise of the cost of tuition.

Yes. I'm a callous asshole.

[ret5hd]

96. I will disregard those...uhhh..."facts"...'cause i know you are lying.

[Alduin]

97. Ahhhh, yes...

because you know me SO well.

[ret5hd]

115. Why, yes. Yes I do.

Who does that sound like?

[jberryhill]

155. I feel sad about those whose births should have been avoided

[phleshdef]

46. You really don't belong here if thats the attitude you take toward unfortunate tragedies like this.

I can understand reacting that way if someone got hurt or killed while trying to do something bad to someone else. But this kid was just being a kid and he did it at the wrong time. Theres nothing to laugh about there. Theres no joke. Its not funny. Its not worthy of ridicule. Everyone on that bus witnessed this happen, which is very traumatic, and somewhere a family is totally caught off guard with grief over it.

If you can't recognize the above and illustrate some fucking dignity and sympathy, you do not belong here.

[phleshdef]

99. I don't lack reading comprehension. You pasted your entire post full of ROFL smilies.

Don't try to play stupid about it to sidestep being called out on your callous bullshit. I don't give a fuck what the TOS says. The TOS don't protect you from being blasted for bad behavior.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

167. I created a thread in Meta about this just for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240139480

[Alduin]

169. Well bless your heart.

[Odin2005]

125. Plenty of us were smart enought not to do stupid shit as teens.

I'm sick of the "my teenage-ness made me do it" excuse for doing dumb shit.

[patrice]

129. Smarts may be a necessary condition for survival, but it is not necessarily a sufficient

condition for survival.

The fact that you were smart enough didn't cause your survival. You also were not un-fortunate enough to make your smartness inadequate to your survival.

You may have been observant and smart enough to cross to the other side of the street at the approach, a full city block away, of a certain gang who almost never frequented the area, but you could also have been unfortunate enough that some mechanical failure caused a vehicle to kill you as you approached the relative safety of the other side of the street.

[patrice]

127. Right on. The behavior was about as un-lucky as it was stupid, despite what some rather

superior others in this thread say.

How many overpasses on the route? more overpasses = more unfortunate
How many overpasses on the route with such narrow clearance? fewer overpasses with inadequate clearance = more unfortunate
How familiar was this young man with the route?
Which direction did the hatch open? Obstructing his view of the route forward? or not? obstruction = more unfortunate
How close to the overpass were they when he opened the hatch? - affecting reaction time, less time to react = more unfortunate
How fast were they going? - affecting reaction time

Not saying it was something that I would do, nor recommend, just that it wasn't ALL stupidity.

[renate]

131. THANK YOU

I am beyond disgusted by what some people are saying here. It just makes me sick at heart.

It's not as though he saw the overpass and decided to play chicken with it. It was horrible, horrible bad luck that he stuck his head out at the time he did. If they'd been traveling on a highway with nothing overhead--as they surely were for 99.9% of the trip--absolutely nothing would have happened.

This has nothing to do with frontal lobe development, as more sympathetic people have suggested and as less sympathetic people have shot down. This was pure bad luck, not stupidity, not recklessness. I am glad that his death must have been so instantaneous that he felt no pain, but I am just so, so, so sad for his family and for the friends that had to see the horrific aftermath.

Thank you for spelling this out so clearly. I couldn't have because I am so disgusted by anybody who thinks this is anything but horrible and tragic. This could have happened to any kid and as a parent I am just ill that anybody could find this funny or deserved, or could dismiss it as Darwinism in action.

[patrice]

144. Being able to imagine what it's like to be someone else is the difference. & Thanks for catching

another very relevant factor:

The length of the route, so it's not only the number of overpasses, it's also the proportion of total over-passed area relative to un-overpassed area. As you said, no matter how many overpasses there were, most of the route was probably without over-passes.

The ability to see things from other people's perspectives is an important difference amongst people determining a great deal that happens between us.

[smirkymonkey]

199. K&R!

This is just tragic, I don't know how anyone can see it as anything else.

[BlueStreak]

208. Of course that is correct. But it is also true that

the security guard on the bus claims to have stopped these kids repeatedly from opening the hatches. That is covered in a bit more detail here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2196982/George-Washington-Bridge-Party-bus-guard-warned-Daniel-Fernandez-open-hatch.html

At some point, one cannot blame the security guard or the bus operator. At some point, the individual is accountable for their own actions. It is tragic, but in a country of 300,000,000 people there are people who do exceptionally stupid things every day, and sometimes it doesn't work out so great.

[Fumesucker]

35. Seriously, you never did anything as a kid that could have turned out fatal?

If things had gone the wrong way?

I can think of half a dozen things that could have gone wrong for me without even trying.

[Meg_Griffin_1]

45. Same here I have dodged some close calls...

I must have a guardian angel or just lucky.

This post gives me a head ache.........whoops...

[UnrepentantLiberal]

64. Most of us can.

Lots of stupid shit that could have ended badly.

[Alduin]

90. Nope.

When I was a teen, I wasn't stupid.

[ohheckyeah]

92. You saved it for adulthood? n/t

[GCP]

153. Thumbs up

[pipoman]

162. ~snick~

[Fumesucker]

93. And here I was thinking "Hire teenagers while they still know everything" was a joke..

Evidently you not only were not stupid, you already knew everything too.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

94. What changed?

[kentauros]

41. You read far more into my post than I wrote.

I thought it was pretty straight-forward and to the point, not to mention blunt. Maybe I can better emphasize the point this way:

The rampant use of "Darwin Award" and all its variations depicts someone that is at the height of callousness in their personality and suffers from a severe lack of compassion for the dead and their loved ones.

So, is that clear now?

[redwitch]

55. I did plenty of dumb things.

I was young and damn lucky to still be here.

[Logical]

107. How is making fun of a dead kid funny to you? Think you are clever?

[Alduin]

136. Yeah...

I don't quite know where I made fun of the kid.

Are you saying sticking your head out of a moving bus is a smart thing to do?

[patrice]

133. So the boy deserved to die? Somehow your concern that "deaths like this won't happen anymore" rings

real hollow.

The fact that you didn't do stupid things and survived doesn't have solely to do with how smart you are.

Your inability to have empathy for or to see this child as anything but "stupid" belies your concern for others.

[pipoman]

163. Brilliant..

I would bet that literally millions of kids stick their head out of the bus window for every one who ends up dead because of it..so no, we wouldn't all be dead if we stuck our head out the window of a bus..ffs

[snooper2]

122. I thought darwin awards were basically the modern day version of natural selection?

[kentauros]

123. Wouldn't they therefore go unnoticed?

No, this phrase or meme, "Darwin Award" is used mostly by those with either no empathy or no respect for the feelings of those involved. I find it distasteful, disrespectful, and frankly, immature.

Besides, wouldn't normal "natural selection" follow a genetic direction? What does that have to do with deaths like this? And if you are making some kind of scientific connection between "natural selection" and these kinds of deaths, then I think you need to either rethink your supposition, or we should all be quite afraid for the future of the human race. This is not a "trait" we should be thankful for.

[muriel_volestrangler]

171. The idea is that the person was genetically stupid

and that their death, before they reproduce, is an example of natural selection.

It's somewhat callous, but has been used extensively on DU for years. I'm surprised to see so many people suddenly saying it doens't belong here.

[kentauros]

180. "Genetically stupid" implies the kind of thing

we don't make fun of on DU. If that's what it really means to those that use it, then perhaps we need some admin action on it, and ban its use.

As for people "suddenly saying it doesn't belong here", did it occur to you that we've finally become fed up with it? All it takes is a thread like this to get more people realizing that it's as stupid a thing to say as the decision it's supposed to mock.

[muriel_volestrangler]

181. I wasn't aware there was an official DU position on "nature v. nurture"

and I think banning the claim that some people are born less intelligent than others would be silly. And no, saying that some people are more stupid than others due to their genes is not as stupid as sticking your head out of a speeding vehicle when you haven't looked to see what's coming. It may or may not be correct, but it's a viable position. See eg http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090317142841.htm

[kentauros]

183. Then, are you aware of the term "Bleeding Heart Liberal"?

It means that the Liberal has compassion for others, is empathetic. "Darwin Award" is the antonym of that.

And I guess I have to spell it out for what is banned on DU with regards to stupidity: moron, idiot, retard, et cetera. "Darwin Award" is just as bad as the rest that belong in that list. And I need to remember that not everyone understands the meaning of the word "imply", nor, it seems, its use.

[muriel_volestrangler]

185. "Moron" and "idiot" are extensively used on DU

Indeed, "moran" is a DU favourite term, and "Top 10 Conservative Idiots" is one of the most notable parts of DU when it's active, written by one of the DU co-owners.

No, I don't think that saying intelligence is partly inherited is anywhere near using the word 'retard' as an insult. And I'm pretty sure that DU admin would agree with me.

[kentauros]

188. I'll admit that I don't know what all the banned words are,

so I'll apologize for thinking moron and idiot were (if indeed they aren't banned.)

However, I stand by my contention that "Darwin Award" (and the sentimentality that uses it) is just as bad as using the word "retard".

[11 Bravo]

59. Un-fucking-believable.

And, sadly, the jury has spoken. In a 4-2 vote, this shit was allowed to stand.

[kentauros]

72. That jury result illustrates my problem

with the use of the Darwin Award. I see it as giving people permission to mock and be callous. All too often its use is over the top, making me wonder whatever happened to empathy.

I'll be be a happy man when we can Darwin Award the Darwin Award.

[aquart]

101. I don't. Mocking death is as important as hushed, respectful grieving.

Mocking death is vital.

[kentauros]

124. You must be a real fungi at funerals.

I avoid mocking where I can. I'm guessing that you meant to say that there's nothing wrong with mocking Death, and I suppose that's okay, though I don't see the point. What we're seeing on this thread, though, are people mocking the event, subsequent result, and the decision that caused it. Hardly the kind of sentiment most people want to hear or read, much less share.

[aquart]

148. You are free to worship and revere death if that's your choice.

You are free to believe anyone chosen by death has been elevated to a form of greatness.

As for the assumption that anyone here would say this at the boy's funeral...as opposed to personal friends on the ride home? That's one hell of a condescending stretch.

The kid died of breathtaking stupidity. And I don't want ANY SURVIVING CHILD thinking that's worthy of respect. Do you?

[kentauros]

154. I think you're confusing the issue here.

I ask that people respect the family, loved ones, and everyone else involved in this tragedy, including the deceased teen. To do so, means to refrain from mocking the less than wise decision that created this event. I said nothing about respecting the decision. But maybe I should post my definition above about the use of the phrase "Darwin Award" as it seems that those posters that think it's A-Ok to use it didn't see my post:

The rampant use of "Darwin Award" and all its variations depicts someone that is at the height of callousness in their personality and suffers from a severe lack of compassion for the dead and their loved ones.

Mocking an unwise decision that leads to a death is callous. If you want to protect living children, then find a better course of action than labeling the dead as the 'winner' of a "Darwin Award".

Any assumptions about my post saying that "anyone here" would say such a thing at funerals is also wrong. My comment that "you must be a real fungi at funerals" was directed solely at your post of: "Mocking death is as important as hushed, respectful grieving. Mocking death is vital." The bit about "hushed, respectful grieving" often happens at funerals. I see no condescension here, other than what is being direct at me. I will admit I was being mildly insulting, what with the use of the word "fungi".

[patrice]

141. Having seen a few deaths, I'd say that's a very valid point, but that's NOT what is

going on here.

A human being, someone who was loved by other human beings, is being ridiculed by persons who assume that they are superior to him. They have no basis for that assumption and may, when it comes down to it, sum and total of all events and behaviors, be persons who are in fact inferior to this young man, that is, if we wish to buy into their whole "superior" "inferior" "Darwin award" modality.

[aquart]

147. Uh huh. Why is that?

Since you are clearly superior to the ones who believe themselves superior. Why would they do such a thing? Are they monsters?

[patrice]

152. That's your assumption; if you read what I said, you might notice that it could apply to anyone,

including myself. I also posed the whole "superior" "inferior" construct as a hypothesis, not a given.

Why? Why is what? Why engage in this "Darwin Award" thing?

Motives vary. Sometimes things are said as social signals, sometimes it's an experiment, sometimes it's emotional, sometimes its theater, often its simply repetition, could be lots of different things and combinations of things. The why of my post to you was about the kind of cold presumptive pseudo-rational judgement implied by "Darwin Awards", especially since it is assumed in a very narrow way that the stupidity (ir-respective of the element of chance) is sufficient proof of the evolutionary un-worthiness of a person about whom those making the Darwin judgement know next to nothing else. Those irrationally assumed to be irrelevant human potentials that were lost could have included the talent or aptitudes or just a particular temperament that in the right context could have produced solutions that others have missed for a long time, or maybe just one more person more capable of loving others and being loved by them just a little more honestly than some, or an artist that creates a more pure expression of some truth, or . . .

All found to be of 0 worth compared to what is assumed to be pure stupidity, but is instead, as far as we know, at least as likely to be more purely the bad luck of the impulsive rather than stupidity.

[kentauros]

157. Better said than my posts, so far.

Thank you!

[Alduin]

91. As it should.

Don't like my opinions? Ignore them.

[Logical]

108. I imagine most people you know do not like you. Just a guess.

[renate]

135. I would never have guessed that anything in this thread could ever make me smile

You proved me wrong.

How utterly humiliating would it be if this thread were used as an example of the kind of people who were on DU? Of course, there are no barriers to joining... which would explain a lot of the comments here.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

150. Sounds like you had a fun childhood.

Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 11:03 AM - Edit history (1)

What happened to you in that house?

[Bonobo]

118. Say that in public...

and YOU may be a Darwin Award winner.

Although I suspect you are too ashamed or cowardly to mutter such hateful things in public.

[Alduin]

137. I'd shout it...

from the top of motherfucking Mount Everest if I have to.

[Bonobo]

139. And hearing that, I might accidentally shove you off. nt

[Alduin]

140. Ooooh.

Death threat.

I wonder if that is a TOS violation.

Alerted.

[Bonobo]

142. I hope they also read your cheering on a tragedy that befell a child and his family. nt

[11 Bravo]

164. Be afraid, Bonobo ... be very afraid. You have been ALERTED on!

Aparently the first thing a noob learns is that the alert system is a total crap shoot. Contemptible and unbelievably insensitive horseshit can be allowed to stand (see farther upthread), and sometimes innocuous replies get shit-canned. Ain't it great?

[Bonobo]

165. Darwin award to him.

Life lesson: Be totally safe as a youth, take no risks, do nothing foolish --grow up to be a MAJOR asshole.

[cleanhippie]

190. Really? You would KILL him for his words?

What. The. Fuck?


You would KILL a person because they SAID something you didn't agree with?

[krispos42]

145. Too young, I think

It's suppose to go to people that "know better", generally the age of majority.

If the kid shot himself playing russian roulette with a semi-automatic handgun, it's a tragedy. If *I*killed myself playing russian roulette with a semi-automatic handgun, it's just stupidity.

[cabot]

12. Poor kid

I think about all of the stupid things I did as a teenager. I feel for his family and the friends who had to witness this.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

13. Can you imagine what that was like for the rest

of the kids on the bus?

[kentauros]

16. I can imagine it.

And I wish I couldn't

[rug]

37. From the link posted below:

"Sometimes kids don't recognize their own mortality," said Jane Lynch, her voice trembling.

Franco (the security guard onboard) said he had gone downstairs to tell the driver that it was getting too hot.

"Two, five minutes I was downstairs," he said.

But then he heard teenagers screaming, and he saw Fernandez on the floor of the bus. "There was so much blood everywhere," he told The New York Post.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/police-nj-teen-party-bus-hits-head-dies#overlay-context=article/syrian-troops-shell-neighborhoods-damascus

[Monk06]

112. I feel sorry for the security guard. Two minutes he was downstairs. He must feel awful.

[dkf]

158. He could be in really big trouble if the kids were drinking.

Party bus indeed.

[hobbit709]

14. I did a lot of dumb things at that age

but it would have never occurred to me to stick my head up on top of a high rise bus.
sometimes being stupid carries an immediate penalty.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Wow, this thread is a DU embarrassment. I have a 16 year old son--kids don't think.

They're impulsive. I can't imagine how awful this event must have been for everyone there. I can't imagine how his parents feel. WTF is wrong with you people?

[Whisp]

20. It is more than an embarassment.

It's something a heartless piece of shit like Rmoney would say.

alert me, whoever, I don't give a shit.

[11 Bravo]

168. Alert you? FUCK, I wish I could REC your post!

[Zalatix]

51. We TALK compassion, but then some of us pull shit like this.

[patrice]

128. SOME of us talk compassion. Others have other priorities, especially here. nt

[redwitch]

60. It IS an embarrassment.

I am shocked to read some of the comments here.

[GCP]

156. Exactly

Kids don't think. The lack of empathy around here is startling.

[obamanut2012]

174. Seriously

[fishwax]

18. Awful -- certainly sucks for the family and everyone on the bus

[demmiblue]

19. NY teacher: Teen killed on party bus was beloved

NEW YORK (AP) — A teacher at a Catholic school in New York says that teenager killed when he stuck his head out of a bus hatch on the way to a sweet 16 party was a beloved student.

Police say Daniel Fernandez was among 65 teens aboard the double-decker bus Friday night as it crossed the George Washington Bridge from New York City on the way to a party in New Jersey. He was fatally stuck when the bus passed under a highway overpass.

The 16-year-old who lived in Queens was pronounced dead at a hospital.

Fernandez's English teacher was in tears Saturday when she learned he died. She says he was an "adorable, low-key kid" with a sweet smile and lots of friends who was popular with girls.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/police-nj-teen-party-bus-hits-head-dies#overlay-context=article/syrian-troops-shell-neighborhoods-damascus

[JNelson6563]

34. Thank you for adding this info.

My heart breaks for all involved. Kids are so impulsive, it's a wonder so many of us live to adulthood. And it sounds like he was a great kid! What a loss!

This is just so sad. A terrible reminder of how life can be over so unexpectedly for ourselves or anyone else in our lives.

Julie

[redwitch]

56. I am a Catholic.

Do you wish me dead too?

[redwitch]

61. Apparently hate is not limited to the Catholic Church.

I have to ask why you think your comment was justified. A 16 year old is dead and you willingly self identify as a hateful person?

[patrice]

130. I'd like to reply to the in-authenticity of that post! = apparent bigot bitching about bigotry. wow.

I'm beginning to pick up on an intensification of rhetorical attacks on Catholics and not just here.

Hmmmm . . .

Something (more) going on.

[niyad]

57. wow, another classy, sympathetic reply. guess what, a LOT of us went to catholic schools, and

did not turn out to be bigoted, woman-hating cretins.

[Bigmack]

27. One of my brightest students....

was asleep in the family's pickup camper, returning from a trip. Woke up sleepy and stepped out .... on the freeway.

Such a terrible waste.

There are sooooo many ways for kids to get killed or hurt.

This kind of story is what makes parents crazy.

[WinkyDink]

33. There's more to this to come out. Others acting the same; no supervision; no lock.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

38. It was hot. The security guy had told the kids not to open the hatch.

The kids were all dancing up a storm and putting out some serious BTUs. The security guy went downstairs to tell the driver they were hot. During the time he was gone the kid opened the hatch and stuck his head out. I'm assuming to try and cool off.

Horrible timing and a tragic event.

[WinkyDink]

40. There's always an initial version. I'll wait for the official one.

[renie408]

68. Sometimes teenagers just do stupid shit. Hard to believe, I know.

It is tragic and sad that this kid paid such a price for doing something stupid, but why does there have to be some underlying conspiracy?

And if he was hot, wouldn't opening the hatch work? Why stick your head out?

And if it that hatch were considered an emergency exit for the top half of the double decker bus, it couldn't be locked. Maybe something is up and maybe it isn't, I just think it is weird that you automatically assume that there is 'more to the story'.

[WinkyDink]

80. So go think it's weird; that's your privilege.

The gruesome accident followed the warnings of a security guard on the bus who said he told the teens repeatedly not to open the hatch.

Daniel Fernandez, 16, was among 65 teens aboard the bus Friday night from New York City on its way to the party in Garfield, N.J., said Steve Coleman, spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

The teens were dancing and the bus had gotten hot, the security guard, Alex Franco, told the Daily News. Still, he said, he had asked the teens to leave the emergency hatch alone.

"I told them not to open the hatch, like three or four times, but kids, they don't understand," he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The company said it would conduct an internal investigation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.live5news.com/story/19433631/police-nj-teen-on-party-bus-hits-head-dies

[renie408]

82. Ok, just as long as I have your permission. n/t

[WinkyDink]

83. Read the rest of the post. BTW: YOU take a snippy tone?! Read the post #39 below, too.

Don't neglect to tell that poster the post is "weird."

[dkf]

159. Possible charges too, against who I am not sure.

[hollysmom]

39. I wonder about the investigation.

Are they trying to see if the bus was an illegal height or if some kid bullied this child to do that or if someone ws passing around alcohol?
I guess more will be known later.
I have lost enough young friends over the years (and amazingly did not lose others considering the drinking and drugs they were involved in) to know they just don't always think, Age seems to have nothing to do with it.

[rachel1]

42. Saddening and pitiful

[Lefta Dissenter]

43. heartbreaking.

I can't imagine what his friends and family are going through.

Sad, sad, sad.

[Drunken Irishman]

53. Stupid and awful and tragic...

My mom taught me from a young age to never stick any part of your body out of a driving car (or whatever). She had a friend in elementary school who stuck his arm out of the car window and it was taken off by another car. So, I was always careful with stuff like that. Still, a life lost is tragic ... even if the reason is carelessness. My heart goes out to his family. The only thing worse than a death of a child is a needless death of a child.

[AtomicKitten]

62. OMG.

Tragic.

I would hate to be sitting near him on the bus.

[Ezlivin]

63. How was this possible?

I didn't realize that buses had hatches at the top. That seems like an odd configuration, but perhaps I'm viewing it wrong.

On the 33' travel trailer we owned there was a vent that popped open with a fan, but there was no way you could get your head through that.

Sorry that this happened to that young man.

[TreasonousBastard]

66. Dunno about this bus, but a lot were built with...

emergency escape hatches on the roof in case the bus ended up its the side with the doors on the ground. Supposedly a better escape than kicking out the windows that would be on top of the bus at that point.

[Thegonagle]

105. Any bus without a rear emergency door (such as a school bus) has a roof hatch.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

65. Folks, look at post count for the trolls in this thread.

It looks like the Conservative Cave is at it again.

[renie408]

69. More to the point...why is this whole thread here?

What the hell does this have to do with progressive....ness?

[liberal_at_heart]

86. This is the general discussion forum

I know most of the posts are political but the purpose of this forum is for people to post about anything they want.

[renie408]

88. Gosh, thanks!

[Ms. Toad]

73. low post counts like

2,595; 25,540; and a few more in the 200s?

Most of this thread looks like our own home grown insensitive and inappropriate responses.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

76. Of the two worst ones,

one of them has 200 with 30 in the last 90 days. The other July 22 and has 300 posts. That's not what I would call regular posters.

[Ms. Toad]

81. The first two I noted were at least as bad -

(with ~2600 and ~25,500) and while 2-300 isn't an enormous number of posts, they aren't in the range normally thought of as low post count - for example, MIRT doesn't routinely get to take care of anyone over 100 posts because they are considered established members.

[obamanut2012]

176. Yes

[RC]

74. For sure, all those double and triple posters must be trolls.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

77. What is a double and tripple poster?

It's no surprise that you're defending them.

[patrice]

134. I think I also detect another increased attack rate on Catholics.

Have been picking that up a little bit elsewhere too.

Apparently someone has noticed that more liberal Catholics could affect some margins in some districts. Now, I wonder who that could be.

[obamanut2012]

175. Not true

Some posters are very high post count and long timers.

[marlakay]

98. My husband who worked as bus driver for a year

after he retired said that once the top was opened it should automatically shut off the engine for safety. He thinks bus company will be sued.

[Thegonagle]

111. It should cut the engine? I'd think a loud alarm,

similar to the rear door alarm of a school bus, would be much safer in a majority of circumstances.

[marlakay]

113. My husband drove train for 30 plus years before that

they have all kinds of emergency overrides and when they do auto stops it always comes to a slow stop which wouldn't have helped this guy anyway.

Especially on a train…he drove Bart in bay area a fast stop would kill people so pushing the stop button cruises slowly to a stop for safety which can be heart breaking since if you are about to hit something you will still hit it…has happened before…but more people hurt if it stops fast and jerks everyone, people would go flying!

[marlakay]

114. and forgot to say a alarm goes off while stopping slowly…nt

[ManiacJoe]

170. Lots of busses allow the hatches to be cracked open for ventilation.

[luv_mykatz]

100. Horrible.

Tragic and sad.

Kids do tend to do things that are unwise. When I was young, many of my friends acted like they were 10 feet tall, and bullet proof.

The connections to the fore brain is not fully developed, and I seem to remember that the frontal lobe is not fully developed at young ages, either.

And, I am not a kid-hater. Like everyone, I made mistakes in my teen years, some of which could have been fatal.

Regarding the roof hatch: no bus I've ever driven had any mechanism to shut off the engine if one of the emergency exits is opened while the bus is moving. Modern vehicles with roof hatches also have power assisted steering. Having the engine shut off while the bus is moving, especially at freeway speed could have disastrous results.

Kids often do not listen when adults are cautioning them to avoid doing something dangerous. I have seen adults do incredibly dangerous and stupid things. If we want kids to take safety seriously, we have to practice it ourselves. That doesn't guarantee that a kid won't try something unsafe, but they are more likely to practice safe behaviors if the adults they are exposed to make it clear that safety is valuable, and important, and demonstrate safe choices and acts.

[Thegonagle]

102. Sad news. Unfortunately, it's happened before.

Almost the exact same thing happened in my area about 15 years ago.

13'6" double decker bus, 14' bridge, teenage kid, roof hatch...

[webbduckfoot]

103. Daniel Fernandez

It is absolutely horrible that some asshole would have the unmitigated gall to make a joke about this unfortunate young man who lost his life.

[fascisthunter]

104. Darwin Award

fucking sad, but really stupid.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

116. when I was in high school

We slid down the bannisters. Lots of us did it. All the time. Even though there was a 3-day suspension if caught. I did it many, many times.

So did Joyce.

She fell from the third floor all the way through the stairwell, hitting head first. She died instantly. She was fourteen.

Every time I hear a story like this one, I think of Joyce.

[JoePhilly]

117. When I was about 15 growing up in Philly ...

There was a 3 floor textile building at the end of the street.

Behind it, there was a large fenced in parking lot.

On the week-ends, my friends and I would turn that parking lot into a baseball field.

At some point, we figured out that we could climb from their loading platform, to a lower level roof, and then from there, climb to the top of the window frames, climb sideways, and then reach another mid-level roof (we learned this because at time a foul ball landed on this roof and we needed to go get it).

From that roof, we noticed an inward corner of the building. A large pipe (about 2 ft diameter) rose up in that space. The pipe was connected to the walls of this corner by metal bands every 10 feet or so.

And so, one of my most crazy friends, went into that corner, pressed his back against the building wall, and then used the pipe to scale the building.

With in a week we all knew how to do it. Back against the concrete wall, feet against the pipe. Push and move up, and then rest when you reached one of the metal bands.

I'm still amazed that none of us died doing it.

[renate]

138. horrible

Kids just don't know any better. People in general will do dangerous things thinking the odds don't apply to them, but kids especially. (And as I posted a little while earlier, I don't think this kid was even reckless... I would bet a million dollars that he didn't realize the overpass was coming up.)

There seem to be people here who think it's deserved when a kid dies doing something that isn't completely safe or logical. I just can't imagine thinking like that, so heartless and punishing.

Without even knowing how long ago Joyce died, I'm just so sad thinking of it... thinking of the call to her parents... thinking of how unnecessary and unlikely it was, but it still happened....

[patrice]

146. It makes me think of the at least one suicide we'd have in whichever high school

I was teaching at every year that I taught - AND - knowing the impulsivity of teenage "decision" making and how, for so many of those suicides, if only they had gone 15-30 minutes longer without doing whatever awful act they did, they would be alive today and their families also would not be suffering so horribly the rest of their own lives.

[appleannie1]

151. Having lost a son, I find some of the responses inexcusable. You people need to grow up.

[pipoman]

161. Unbelievable how many want to

pretend that this freak accident was some sort of raging stupidity and not a kid doing the kind of thing kids do every day and not die from the consequences...really sad where we've devolved to..

[11 Bravo]

173. However, it's good to be reminded occasionally that the right wing hasn't cornered the market on ...

callous jackasses.

[B Calm]

160. Why would a double-decker bus

have a sun roof? I drive an 18 wheeler for a living and we are constantly looking at clearance signs. Passengers on a bus wouldn't think of things like that.

I would say the parents of this child should get a good attorney and sue the hell out of the bus company and the company that made the bus!

[LisaL]

172. It's not a sun roof but a bus hatch. Presumably for emergency escape.

Also presumably not for sticking head out as bus drives along the interstate.

[obamanut2012]

177. It's an emergency exit

Most buses have them.

[dkf]

178. This actually seems awfully excessive for a 16 year old's party.

The crowd of 65, including many from a Queens Catholic high school, was gearing up for a wild Friday night, tweeting about getting “sauced” at a friend’s Sweet 16 party at a catering hall in Garfield, NJ.

Friends posted pictures of party girls in blue dresses. One kid bragged, “The amount of bottles on this limo is rediculous.”

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/life_death_G4MAedA398IYckdvg3hDTK

There were no parental chaperones on the bus, according to Kotary.

Other guests already at the Venetian, a posh catering hall, learned of the tragedy via text.

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1149861

[WilliamPitt]

182. This is the ugliest thread I've seen on DU in years.

Comprehensively shitty.

[kentauros]

184. And plenty of them finding every possible way

to justify being ugly. It's certainly showing us who has empathy and who is totally apathetic.

[muriel_volestrangler]

187. And this link for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002898057#post18

[kentauros]

189. Okay, he was indeed "too damned dumb for Freeperland."

But where did I say or even imply that he deserved a "Darwin Award"?

Gotta love fellow DUers that go searching on past behavior versus simply observing actions and remembering.

[muriel_volestrangler]

195. You were laughing in a thread about "a Darwin Award"

even if he had avoided it by not killing himself. Stupidity seemed funny to you, then.

[kentauros]

198. He didn't die.

Darwin Awards are most often about someone dying for a stupid decision (I have rarely seen it used otherwise.) And used as such, are (as I stated here from the beginning) the epitome of callousness.

I know you're just trying to pick apart my opinion to "catch" me in a lie, but it's not working. I stand by my contention that the use of Darwin Award uncalled for and callous. It tells plenty about the user, and those that support its use, as in this thread.

[cleanhippie]

192. Brilliant!

[muriel_volestrangler]

186. Really?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2536315&mesg_id=2536551

[kentauros]

191. That post was from over five years ago.

Are you trying to say that people don't change?

If you were to go searching on my posts (which you are already doing) you may find posts from many years ago where my behavior is contrary to what I am espousing today. It won't negate what I'm saying today, either, unless in your opinion "people don't change, ever!"

I've got news for you: people do change, and for the better.

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. I'd expect a bit of understanding about the attitude

if it's one you used to hold. Or at least an acknowledgement that you did, rather than constant scolding of DUers.

[kentauros]

200. Is the "scolding" justified?

I'd say it is, no matter what a person's history on DU. We are calling ourselves Liberals, and yet we seem to have plenty here whose behavior is counter to a trait that is assumed for Liberalism, i.e., empathy for others.

The use of "Darwin Award" is the antithesis of empathy.

[cleanhippie]

193. Again, brilliant!

You are on FIRE!

Well Done.

[alcibiades_mystery]

194. Just for everybody's information on the school

St. Francis Prep is in my old haunts out in northeastern Queens. It is a fairly good Catholic high school populated mostly by the working and middle class kids from the areas around it, from Bayside and Whitestone, to Fresh Meadows, and the mammoth designation of plain old Flushing. Many of my friends growing up went to St. Francis Prep. I believe one of the Gotti kids was at St. Francis Prep back when I was a teenager, and his Dad was still Teflon. It's a competitive entrance school: you take a test for the Catholics and choose from those you are admitted to. St. Francis Prep is not Regis (perhaps the best Catholic high school in NYC), but it is generally considered one of the better schools - and co-ed, unlike many of the others in the area (Holy Cross is all boys, St. Agnes is all girls, etc.). If these kids were all from St. Francis Prep or the other surrounding Catholics, I feel like I know them already, since that was largely my crowd when I was in high school, even though I went to a NYC public.

We're talking about real people with real families and friends. Just a reminder for the clever.

[Major Hogwash]

209. Um . . .

I don't want to pry or anything like that, but did you just say that you went to school with 1 of Gotti's kids??

[alcibiades_mystery]

210. No, I didn't go to Prep

One of Gotti's kids went to prep when I was in high school, and friends of mine went to school with him. Kid was a dick, as I recall, but this was already after his father was famous. I actually got in a little run in with him and his buddies because they all took a school bus from Howard Beach or Ozone Park (don't really remember which), and that bus picked up kids from my (public) high school as well. So, this Gotti kid starts mouthing off to me and a few friends out of the bus window and we're all now in a typical Queens shoutdown, step off the bus then pussy sorta operation, while he's all like, youz are all gonna end up in a ditch. We find out later from the girl on the bus that it's Gotti and his cronies, but we're all like, what-the-fuck-ever, guido motherfuckers.

You know, the usual.

[Terra Alta]

197. most teenagers think they will live forever

This is such a sad story, but I hope it's a wake-up call for teens who like to do reckless things. My heart goes out to this boy's family. May he rest in peace.

[darkangel218]

201. What i dont get, didnt they have a chaperon?

Kids are not suppose to horse around while riding on the bus for multiple reasons. Whoever was in charge of them did not do a good job.

[kentauros]

202. They had a security guard instead.

He was not in the area when the incident happened, so I'm sure he's pretty torn up about it now, too.

[darkangel218]

204. They shouldve had 2 guards for a double decker

What a sad story

[kentauros]

205. I agree.

It's a very sad story, and for all involved. Did you see the post above that included the various tweets his friends were making? I feel bad for what they've had to go through, too.

I'm sure if they ever do a trip like that again, they'll be well-prepared.

[cherokeeprogressive]

203. Hey people - the kid's dead. D.E.A.D. He doesn't give a fuck about your empathy, or lack thereof.

No amount of sadness for his family, or hand-wringing, or wailing, or gnashing of teeth is going to change the fact that he did a mightily stupid thing and paid the ultimate price for it. Saying he's a Darwin Award winner doesn't make one a bad person any more than overflowing with empathy, sympathy, grief or whatever makes one a good person.

What he did isn't going to deter other teens from acting stupidly, nor is it going to increase the possibility of same. I'd wager a fair amount that few teenagers living more than 500 miles away even heard of the tragedy. 99.99% of teenagers do stupid things. Some of them get unlucky, and dead. Trying to change that is a fool's errand.

Yes, it's a tragedy, but let's not get lost patting ourselves on the back for being empathetic; no one cares what DU thinks but DUers.

I've read some pretty rabid shit here over the years when someone hated by DUers has died. I've read some pretty rabid shit here in the form of hopes for different types of illness up to and including cancer for people hated by DUers. For that reason, I find the hand-wringing over someone's comment re: Darwin Awards funny as hell. I know one thing to be a certainty though: The dead kid doesn't give a fuck what DUers say or don't.

[mcctatas]

206. +1

[Iggo]

212. Enough of this crap.

Thread.Officially.Trashed.