General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy don't more military officers oppose the abandonment of the Kurds?
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
What Determines Contempt Toward Officials
(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;
(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;
(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and
(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used. Note: If the words were against a Governor or legislature, add the following element
(5) That the accused was then present in the State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession of the Governor or legislature concerned.
Maximum Punishment
Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/punitive-articles-of-the-ucmj-3356854
RockRaven
(14,959 posts)Note: I'm NOT saying their potential losses are negligible.
But I *AM* saying that they are NOT oath- and duty-bound automatons.
Life is complicated. People are complicated. And crooks and traitors like Trump exploit that.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Why didnt I just go AWOL in Vietnam when I began to see the war as wrong?
Id like it if it where you giving up who had to give up your life for principal.
RockRaven
(14,959 posts)Or maybe you are more complicated than that? For example, it sounds like you considered more than one variable. Will you do so here?
What is one's duty when one has more than one simultaneous duty which conflict in a mutually-exclusive fashion?
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)you are just spouting nonsense. Work on clarity in your communication and get back with us.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)and doing what we want professional military to do.
RockRaven
(14,959 posts)Which path do they take? Do they "punt" that decision to others (like purposefully-selected lawyers which enable them to hide behind an authority other than themselves)?
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)There's no law against being an idiot President who makes bad decisions.
There's no law against pulling out troops even if it means leaving your allies to die.
Those are all political decisions. And guess what, the PEOPLE are responsible for that via whom they elect.
The Military does what they are told, as long as it doesn't violate the Constitution, and nothing in this scenario does that.
I have no idea what the rest of that gobbledy-gook you just posted is supposed to mean by "purposefully selected lawyers." Are you talking about JAGs?
RockRaven
(14,959 posts)So by all means prove *that* assertion.
That's usually hard to do in the negative, and even more so when you cannot possibly know *everything* there is to know about the situation (unless you are Donald Trump, and even then, self-awareness, yikes) -- especially when so many corruption crimes have an intent element in the statute. And if you want to go the "no indictment, only impeachment" route, then the Constitution merely outlines "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors" with the latter term being undefined in the original text. So go ahead and prove that negative also or instead, upon which the purported military personnel are supposed to anchor their justification for staying silent, as the OP inquired about... in the face of a maximum penalty of loss of pay and pension and one year in jail (which as I pointed out was a pecuniary barrier)
But anyhow, let's move on...
Those oaths that the military swore also bind them to... well, let's quote it directly:
"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
So what are they supposed to do when the POTUS *is* the domestic enemy, or when the POTUS is the one whose orders *otherwise violate the UCMJ*? Acting as an automaton is not a defense, nor does it explain how they choose to proceed. So, please proceed, interlocutor...
stopdiggin
(11,296 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)Because I am.
Are you a judge advocate?
Because I am, senior in fact albeit retiring.
Nothing that you typed makes any sense in either vein. You strike me as someone who thinks they know WAY more than they do about the law in general, the UCMJ in particular and is very, very wrong about both. You also strike me as someone who has some axe to grind against the military.
No, I'm not going to prove your negative. You don't get to make an assertion, provide zero evidence for it, then when someone asks you to, tell them to prove the negative. Prove your own assertions. I don't really think you can because as someone as said, so far, it's gibberish.
California_Republic
(1,826 posts)msongs
(67,395 posts)flotsam
(3,268 posts)Loss of career and pension? Or just talking shit? Anybody can do something flamboyant and get jail time-anybody here doing that?
RockRaven
(14,959 posts)That says a lot about you and any oath sworn by you. Everyone should proportionally distrust your oaths as weighed against that particular penalty for violating them.
And one must assume since you are willing to throw such oaths aside that many other persons are of like mind... so we should not mindlessly trust any of these military personnel to fulfill their oaths either when faced with that penalty... well, that is very rational, indeed, even if depressing.
Well okay then, but the loss of trust, prestige, etc is forever resting upon those who treat oaths like toilet tissue. This is the end of any lionization of the patriotism of those in the military. Everyone else ought to treat them like mindless amoral stooges, if this path is to be followed. Well, if you so insist, so be it, and on your head it will be.
stopdiggin
(11,296 posts)and who is violating their oath? What actions (specifically by military personnel) are you either advocating -- or proscribing? I have no idea of what you're going on about.
The president did a really shitty (and probably stupid) thing -- which he clearly, stupid or not, has the power to do .. WHAT are you proposing that people currently serving in the military do about it?
OldRed2450
(710 posts)It's shameful to even suggest they are an iota responsible.
Response to OldRed2450 (Reply #11)
Post removed
JimGinPA
(14,811 posts)Hekate
(90,645 posts)...just look around at the kinds of countries that regularly get overthrown by generals.
The US military is supposed to stay out of politics -- that's a feature, not a bug.
Hekate
(90,645 posts)And as I told RockRaven, that's a feature of our Constitutional government, not a bug.
dustyscamp
(2,224 posts)a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)I have two Kurdish friends. They live here in the States now, but they are reeling.
What horrors this administration has unleashed.