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Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:12 PM

 

My FB Conversation with an opponent of M4All or anything but status quo

We still have a very long way to go on convincing people that some sort of nation-wide healthcare is needed. Pelosi may be right about it not being the best plank to run on. I put on my nice face and tried to make logical arguments and not be a jerk.

One of my friends posted this meme going around on FB. My conversation with a person who disagrees is an example of what we are fighting. Basically, ignorance and selfishness.

- Meme -
I spent 36 years in the insurance business. So I know a thing or two about the subject. The one thing everyone needs to understand is that insurance is an exclusionary product - that is includes good risks that the insurance companies want, it EXcludes bad risks they do not want.

Because the exclusionary nature of insurance, health care is not, never has been, and never will be, a good candidate as insurance product. This is because everyone needs health care

Everyone - without exclusion.

So don't talk to me about socialism or capitalism or anything in between. We need to adopt a universal health care system because health care is universally needed - unlike what is provided by insurance.

It's really that simple.

--- end of meme --


++ Opponent ++
We don't need bigger government. Heck, by your logic government should run everything.

- My Response to Opponent -
I do not believe the original poster is suggesting the government run everything. There are, however, things that are too big for private companies to do effectively. Building the interstate highway system was too big for private companies. Going to the moon was too big for private companies.

We faced those challenges as a nation together. We can face the health care challenge as one.--

++ Opponent ++ Just in case you missed it
Kaiser can do it for $22 trillion less than the government can!!!!

- My Response to Opponent -
No, Kaiser cannot.

++ Opponent ++
i have the uber kaiser plan that costs a lot and very low caps on my out of pocket

Take that, multiply it by 330 million people... it costs 22 trillion less than the ewarrens plan

- My Response to Opponent -
So you LIKE to have caps on your coverage and paying out-of-pocket? I don't. Cancer treatment in our country can bankrupt you with caps on coverage and out-of-pocket costs. My boss, just had to take out a HELOC to pay for medical costs for a chronic illness his wife has. It took lots and lots of visits to specialists to diagnose and then treat. Each added a cost that wasn't covered because he hadn't met the family annual out-of-pocket.

It makes no sense to me that his family's home is now in jeopardy because his wife was ill through no fault of her own.

The US spends almost twice as much as other nations on its private-company, healthcare and gets worse outcomes. If you add up the Kaisers, the Blue Crosses, the Providences, etc. they cannot do for less. This is even worse when you consider that not everyone in the US has coverage.

https://www.pgpf.org/.../how-does-the-us-healthcare...
How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?
pgpf.org
How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other…
How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?


++ Opponent ++
Of all things people want control over, they want control over my body by controlling my healthcare


- My Response to Opponent -
People ALREADY have control over your body because they control your healthcare. Can you change jobs and take your current plan with you? Your current doctors? Most people cannot. So, your boss has control over your body right now.

++ Opponent ++
you haven't seen my plan. It's insanely good


++ Opponent ++
last companies i switched between both had a Kaiser option... so yes, i did.

As for my boss having control I'd prefer someone i see every day over some bureaucrat far away. I can directly influence the guy or girl i work for by helping to improve the bottom line and argue for better benefits if needed.


- My Response to Opponent -
Some thoughts. You were lucky that you were able to change jobs and keep the same insurance company. I've never been that lucky. Reality is, if something happens and neither you nor the company for which you work is able to pay your premiums you are out of luck. You will have no coverage and when you find a new job it may or may not offer the Cadillac plan you now have. This can happen due to circumstances beyond your control. Maybe your company goes bankrupt, lays you off or gets bought by some far, far away bureaucrat who cuts the coverage. You are then out of luck.

Another thing about your arguments is they are all about this being a "me" problem only. As in you ONLY care about healthcare as it pertains to you and ONLY you. Whatever happens to "them" is of no concern. If there is one thing I'd really like us to get back from the "good old days" and "golden age," it is the ability to care about others and look beyond our own selfishness. Back when "WE Can Do It!" meant WE would do it. Not "I got mine and f-you."

Healthcare in this nation is not a "me" problem or a "them" problem. It is an "US" problem. You may not realize it but it affects the productivity of the economy as a whole. Which affects your wages and disposable income.


++ Opponent ++
i think us is better served when we harness self interests.

Anyways, it's been fun debating and you make good arguments. I gotta head out.


- My Response to Opponent -
So, in conclusion, it's okay to be a completely self-serving person and not care about anything else?

I guess you never got the point of the "First they came for..." poem.

You're also missing out on the lesson of thousands of years of evolution. If raw self-interests were the best option we'd have never developed into a species to the point where you and I could have an internet, and, this discussion. We'd still be killing one another for that one gazelle on the savanna we were both tracking.

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Arrow 10 replies Author Time Post
Reply My FB Conversation with an opponent of M4All or anything but status quo (Original post)
bitterross Nov 2019 OP
brewens Nov 2019 #1
bitterross Nov 2019 #2
brewens Nov 2019 #7
Bettie Nov 2019 #9
Sherman A1 Nov 2019 #3
bitterross Nov 2019 #5
Sherman A1 Nov 2019 #8
Yavin4 Nov 2019 #4
Cartaphelius Nov 2019 #6
Karadeniz Nov 2019 #10

Response to bitterross (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:22 PM

1. I remember the same attitude back when Hillary was working on a plan. Union guys and

Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

others I knew said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Now everyone of those guys has plans that are nowhere near as good as what they had then. At that time, my deductible and premiums had just doubled. I asked for a raise and was told that the cost of my insurance had just gone up about 100 bucks, so no raise. As far as I was concerned, the insurance company got my raise. It may not have been broke yet, but it was already headed that way.

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Response to brewens (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 03:26 PM

2. Math is hard

 

Seriously, people don't do the math. They don't get that they are paying for healthcare for all now anyway. They're paying a lot more than they should be.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:22 PM

7. Even if you have some of the best coverage at work, it's not as good as it

should be, and or you should be getting more in your paycheck. It's like they are happy about not being screwed as bad as everyone else.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:48 PM

9. And they don't think of the

other payments beyond the premiums.

Copays, out of pocket maximums, procedures that were supposed to be covered, but turn out not to be.

For example, a surprising number of insurance policies won't cover an ambulance fee.

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Response to bitterross (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 04:12 PM

3. My response would be

How come every other industrialized nation can have it and we cannot? The US is supposedly the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind and we cannot have universal health insurance when nations that are nowhere near our equal in wealth seem to have it.

Please (++ Opponent ++) explain that to me and use small words as I want you to understand what it is you are saying.

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:04 PM

5. That's even worse than asking them to do math.

 

These people are not intellectually curious or capable of critical thinking. We must spell it out for them in the simplest terms possible. We must give them examples to which they can relate.

I'm sad to say it but they are all very lazy intellectually. It's so much easier to read your friend's/Union's/FOX's tweets and posts and just accept them rather than think.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:32 PM

8. Perhaps

but Facebook discussions of pretty much anything are really a waste of time from the get-go. I really doubt that you will convince anyone of anything on that platform.

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Response to bitterross (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 04:34 PM

4. Your opponent has never had a major medical problem in his life

Nor has he had to interact with our healthcare system in any meaningful wayy except for check ups.

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Response to bitterross (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 05:08 PM

6. Bitter....

It looks like you like somehow relish self-abuse served up by
discontents like me.

That being said, your closing paragraph:

You're also missing out on the lesson of thousands of years of evolution. If raw self-interests were the best option we'd have never developed into a species to the point where you and I could have an internet, and, this discussion. We'd still be killing one another for that one gazelle on the savanna we were both tracking.

says it all very succinctly but sadly, few would even understand.

Best wishes!

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Response to bitterross (Original post)

Sun Nov 3, 2019, 07:05 PM

10. Oooh, you won! Your opponent hasn't evolved beyond the greed-is-good philosophy. Hard

To make headway with thirty years of tunnel brain.

Something from back when impressed me...but I can't remember the details! There was a car mfgr...prob in Mich..and maybe the co had a plant right over the border in Canada. Anyway, the mfgr preferred having the workers in Canada because it didn't have to spend as much money on the workers health insurance. The profit was greater. I thought that that American mfgr made a good case for national health, if they'd only tell people.

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