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Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:55 AM

The Impeachment articles wisely focus on the damage to national security not Trump's personal gain

https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/Articles%20of%20Impeachment.pdf

While the behavior described in the articles obviously constitutes bribery, the harm is framed as a threat to national security, not Trump getting something of value for himself. If the charge were bribery rather than abuse of power, the debate and focus would be on whether getting dirt on Biden was justified and whether it was actually of value to Trump. But as drafted, the articles take that minutaie out of the discussion and zero right in on the damage Trump's actions did to national security, whether or not the demand in the end would actually help him or not.

Brilliant, in my view.

30 replies, 3244 views

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Reply The Impeachment articles wisely focus on the damage to national security not Trump's personal gain (Original post)
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 OP
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2019 #1
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #2
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #4
SterlingPound Dec 2019 #5
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #6
SterlingPound Dec 2019 #8
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #9
SterlingPound Dec 2019 #10
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #14
marble falls Dec 2019 #13
BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #11
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #12
Kentonio Dec 2019 #15
BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #16
Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #18
BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #20
Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #27
BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #28
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #29
Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #30
LanternWaste Dec 2019 #23
kentuck Dec 2019 #3
Fiendish Thingy Dec 2019 #7
erronis Dec 2019 #22
backscatter712 Dec 2019 #17
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #21
backscatter712 Dec 2019 #24
Post removed Dec 2019 #19
Gothmog Dec 2019 #25
BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #26

Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:05 PM

1. I agree, but you know somebody's gonna complain.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:06 PM

2. Of course

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:22 PM

4. The usual suspects

Some of them appear to have been sitting on the edge of their seats just waiting to jump on the bash-Dems bandwagon again.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:23 PM

5. and others just want him charged for the crimes he commited

and really are interested in Law and Order

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:27 PM

6. Impeachment isn't a legal process.

It has nothing to do with charging the president for crimes committed.

If you want him charged for crimes committed, help ensure that he loses in 2020. That's the only scenario in which that will happen anytime soon.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:29 PM

8. Ok for you pedantic nature we want him held accountable

and we don't quite feel that half-assing it doest that adequately after 3 long years.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:35 PM

9. Same problem.

He's going to be acquitted by the Senate so the way to hold him accountable is to dump him in 2020, and then the various agencies can pursue indictments, etc.

Pointing out the flaw in your assertion isn't pedantic. Understanding how this is a legislative process and not a legal one is impeachment 101.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:37 PM

10. Really sounds like the difference between me saying America is based on democratic principles

and you screaming back we are a republic and then continuing to scream to kill the discussion to me.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:45 PM

14. Nope.

There's too much knee-jerking about impeachment. Making inaccurate assertions based on a lack of understanding of the process doesn't accomplish anything. It just makes us look a bit ignorant and riles people up for no reason.

The lack of understanding by many of the basics of impeachment is part of the problem. If we all took some time to understand how the process works, why decisions are made, what the ramifications are, and what the available penalties are, we'd all be better off.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:44 PM

13. You said it exactly right.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:39 PM

11. I think the problem is some folks have been watching too much Law and Order

All of the sudden DU is awash in communications and constitutional law experts.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:40 PM

12. You noticed that, too?

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:51 PM

15. Oh gosh, are they drowning out the internet blowhards

 

..who canít handle even the slightest criticism of party leadership without trying to insult or childishly smear people who have genuine concerns about the party strategy that has so far delivered squat?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 01:04 PM

16. Which one are you?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 01:56 PM

18. Perfectly stated! It's the most important thing...leaders

are right no matter what! No debate of ideas allowed!

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 02:00 PM

20. Who said it wasn't allowed?

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:24 PM

27. Try expressing another view and you will quickly find out

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:30 PM

28. Two separate things

I think what you want is for everyone to agree with you. Thereís nothing wrong with that, but one shouldnít be surprised that when one posts doom and gloom on a democratic forum on the day the articles are introduced there is significant and forceful pushback.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:41 PM

29. The gloom and doom is generally coming from those who insisted months ago that Pelosi would never

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2019, 05:26 PM - Edit history (2)

impeach.

Moving the goalposts while hoping no one remembers who wrong they got it.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 05:21 PM

30. And dont forget Jerry Nadler! And Hillary's Parkhomenko.

Who also expected more. Hmm. The president has committed crimes tenfold.

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Response to SterlingPound (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 02:53 PM

23. That's the allegation we keep hearing. As for its veracity, well... who knows?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:20 PM

3. Everybody knows he's in it for himself.

And have reconciled their beliefs to fit that small deficiency.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:28 PM

7. Personal benefit was the motivation, damage to National security the crime

The National Security angle could have the most powerful impact on public sentiment and senate votes, diminishing the political framing and enhancing the Rule of law/Oath of Office issue, seen through the lens of National Security.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 02:50 PM

22. Personal benefit vs. intentional national damage. That's probably the usual viewpoint

But when someone like the peeResident is being blackmailed by his moscow buddy (vlad, not mitch) and being told to perform certain actions against the US national interests; is that one or thother? Or is it both.

I think poor donny-boy(db) is caught in Mr. Dobson's dilemma. He has committed crimes against the US (and states and others), and he is beholden to foreign interests. db will try to survive as long as possible but one of his adversaries will get to him and his family. Maybe slowly, maybe speedily. Maybe painfully or perhaps ...

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 01:31 PM

17. They should think about adding these charges:

On top of Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress,

* Reckless Endangerment of the National Security of the United States - for allowing Russia to get away with so many of America's secrets. For discussing sensitive information on insecure communications channels. For disclosing classified national security information on Twitter (I'm thinking of when he tweeted a picture of Iran's facilities and thus disclosing some of our spy satellite capabilities).

* Conduct Unbecoming of a President of the United States - use this one as a catch-all for all of the dishonorable and despicable shit he's done - bringing white supremacists into the White House, incitement of violence at his Nuremburg rallies, attacking Gold Star families, bragging about grabbing women by the *****, being a pathological liar, etc. etc. fucking etc.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 02:06 PM

21. Because you think that not of this occurred to them?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:01 PM

24. One can dream...

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)


Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:09 PM

25. From Prof. Tribe

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:11 PM

26. That's really all I need to hear

Cuts through the din around here put forth by people who donít know anything.

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