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Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:17 PM

What happens if fifty-one Senators vote to convict in the Senate??

IF four Republicans voted with the Democrats and Independents, they would have 51 votes to find Donald J Trump guilty.

Of course, the Constitution says that it takes two/thirds vote in the Senate to remove a President.

If only fifty-one Senators vote to convict, the President does not have to be removed. He can stay on as President?

Even if the majority vote to convict, rather than acquit, it is not enough to remove the President?

How could someone stay on as President if a majority of Senators believe him to be guilty?

Am I missing something that is in the Constitution?

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Reply What happens if fifty-one Senators vote to convict in the Senate?? (Original post)
kentuck Dec 2019 OP
dem4decades Dec 2019 #1
912gdm Dec 2019 #2
bearsfootball516 Dec 2019 #3
DavidDvorkin Dec 2019 #8
Lochloosa Dec 2019 #9
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #12
DavidDvorkin Dec 2019 #13
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #14
912gdm Dec 2019 #20
jberryhill Dec 2019 #21
Polybius Dec 2019 #39
kentuck Dec 2019 #43
Timewas Dec 2019 #4
jmowreader Dec 2019 #5
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #6
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #7
kentuck Dec 2019 #22
Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #10
TwilightZone Dec 2019 #15
Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #16
safeinOhio Dec 2019 #11
Polybius Dec 2019 #40
Voltaire2 Dec 2019 #17
lastlib Dec 2019 #18
sarisataka Dec 2019 #19
Renew Deal Dec 2019 #23
kentuck Dec 2019 #24
onenote Dec 2019 #25
kentuck Dec 2019 #26
Vinca Dec 2019 #27
kentuck Dec 2019 #28
beachbumbob Dec 2019 #29
kentuck Dec 2019 #30
uncle ray Dec 2019 #31
aikoaiko Dec 2019 #32
StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #33
pintobean Dec 2019 #34
MineralMan Dec 2019 #35
EndlessWire Dec 2019 #36
MineralMan Dec 2019 #37
Polybius Dec 2019 #41
Polybius Dec 2019 #38
gulliver Dec 2019 #42
kentuck Dec 2019 #44
krispos42 Dec 2019 #45

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:18 PM

1. He stays, we pay.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:21 PM

2. nada... or even 52. or 53.

2/3rds is the magic number needed so 66, 67? for him to be removed

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:22 PM

3. It's a preventative measure to make sure removal is a bipartisan decision.

With how the country is set up, it's basically impossible to get 67 senators of the same party in the Senate at the same time. What the founding fathers didn't anticipate is one party becoming so corrupt that they refuse to convict even when the evidence is staring them in the face.

But...can you imagine the problems if you could convict with a simple majority? Republicans would have invented some reason to impeach Obama in the House after winning the Senate in 2014, then removed him from office with a simple majority.

Without the 2/3rds requirement, any party that controls the House and Senate could impeach and remove any president they want at any time, for any reason. It would be a nightmare.

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Response to bearsfootball516 (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:40 PM

8. No, the Constitution does not deal with parties in any way.

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Response to bearsfootball516 (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:41 PM

9. Nixon was told there were enough votes to convict.

That is why he resigned. It's not impossible to get 2/3's.

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Response to Lochloosa (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:43 PM

12. 2/3 in the same party.

Not 2/3 overall.

"it's basically impossible to get 67 senators of the same party in the Senate at the same time."

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:54 PM

13. Why would you need 2/3 in the same party?

It's 2/3 of those present and voting.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:00 PM

14. No one is going to stay home.

The point of the OP was that we'll always need members of the other party to reach 67, because it's highly unlikely we'll ever get to 67 Democrats in the Senate at the same time. Or that either party will get to 67, for that matter.

I thought the point was made pretty clearly, but apparently not.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 12:10 AM

20. TIL the founders envisioned 67 senate votes to remove.

Those were some super psychic founders to know we would have 50 states.



/s

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Response to 912gdm (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 12:47 AM

21. (Snort)

 


Having two national political parties was not an operative assumption either.

P

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 03:56 PM

39. The point of the OP was to ask if he could be removed with a simple majority of 51 votes

Not sure why it was even asked, since the number 67 is basically everywhere.

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Response to Polybius (Reply #39)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 04:31 PM

43. It would be to remove him Nixon-like..

...by resignation.

After all, if he won the election with a technicality called the Electoral College, and he was impeached in the House, then if a majority of Senators voted him guilty of the charges, it appears to be three strikes and you're out to the common eye? By the Constitution, it requires two/thirds of those present to remove him.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:23 PM

4. Your premise

MAkes the assumption that he really gives a fat fuck about anyone besides himself. He will crow to the heavens that he is innocent and laugh at all of it

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:24 PM

5. Only counts if a lot of Republicans stay away in protest

The Constitution says two-thirds concurrence of those present when the vote is taken are required to convict.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:24 PM

6. He's not removed, but it sends a powerful message.

He took the White House despite a majority of voters voting for his opponent and he would have stayed in the White House despite a bipartiaan majority of the House and Senate wanting him removed from office.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:34 PM

7. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

"Of course, the Constitution says that it takes two/thirds vote in the Senate to remove a President. "

This is correct. 2/3 of 100 (it's highly unlikely anyone will be absent or abstain) is 67.

"If only fifty-one Senators vote to convict, the President does not have to be removed. He can stay on as President? "

Well, yes. 51 < 67. He's going to consider anything under 67 a victory.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 06:53 AM

22. But, is it a victory?

If 51 Senators vote to convict him and 49 vote to acquit, isn't that a political problem?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:42 PM

10. if 25 stay home, 51 voting to convict means he's removed

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Response to Hermit-The-Prog (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:01 PM

15. Not happening.

25 members of the Senate aren't going to stay home when the time comes to vote.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:06 PM

16. didn't say it will happen

The answer to the OP's question is, "nothing", in the most likely scenario of all Senators being present.

The other extreme is a bare quorum (51) showing up and all of them voting to convict.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 10:43 PM

11. What we need to do is

flip the Senate and keep the House. That would be the end of trump.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 03:57 PM

40. You will need more than that

It takes 67 out of 100 to convict.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:16 PM

17. 2/3.

And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:31 PM

18. What happens? AnusMouth claims "total exoneration!" and....

goes on to destroy the nation for Vladdy Daddy.

And We The People Are Screwed. Unless he's assassinated, blows a cranial artery, or is overwhelmingly defeated next November, and dragged out in irons in January.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 11:50 PM

19. If 51 vote guilty, he stays. The math is not hard.

Andrew Johnson's impeachment vote was 35 guilty, 19 not guilty. 36 guilty vote were needed to convict so he remained in office.

Today it would take 67 votes to remove a President; 66 votes he stays in office. The talk of some Senators not showing up is fantasy. They will all show up unless someone is in a coma. Any Republican who doesn't show up would be treated by their party and constituents as if they voted guilty.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 07:35 AM

23. I don't think any will vote to convict unless enough vote to convict

Voting against it is the easy way out.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 07:48 AM

24. So long as Trump can get 51 Senators, he can say he was acquitted.

If 51 Senators vote to convict him, he cannot argue that he was acquitted. He can argue that he was not convicted by the rules of the Constitution.

So, we will then have a president that won the White House with the Electoral College, after losing the popular vote by about 3 million votes. We will then have a president that was impeached in the House. And, if 51 Senators vote to convict, we will have a president that everyone has voted against and he will still be in the White House.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 08:50 AM

25. As long as 2/3 don't vote to convict, he can say he was acquitted.

Not guilty and acquitted are synonymous from a legal standpoint. And this is not like a typical criminal trial in which the jury's verdict must be unanimous and the result of a divided jury is neither a verdict of guilty or not guilty. Anything less than 2/3 in a Senate trial is a verdict of not guilty and thus, acquittal.

This is confirmed by the Senate's rules governing impeachment trials:

XIII. [SNIP] "On the final question whether the impeachment is sustained, the yeas and nays shall be taken on each article of impeachment separately; and if the impeachment shall not, upon any of the articles presented, be sustained by the votes of two-thirds of the Members present, a judgment of acquittal shall be entered"

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Response to onenote (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 08:56 AM

26. "...the votes of two-thirds of the Members present..."

Good point!

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 09:08 AM

27. What happens? Nothing. It's back to the everyday grifting and tweeting. Golf anyone?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 09:21 AM

28. I'm not certain the general public would view a vote to convict Trump, 51 or more Senators...

..in the same way as the politicians and constitutionalists?

They may have a different perspective?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 09:24 AM

29. nope, need 67 under any scenario to remove

 

need 51 not to even hold a trial if McConnel does what we all expect he is going to do unless the filibuster can be used to stop it.

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 09:30 AM

30. That might be a little more difficult?

to get 51 Republicans to shut down the process in such an abrupt way, and perhaps, unconstitutional?

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Response to beachbumbob (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 10:04 AM

31. we need over 2/3 of Senators present at time of voting.

that does not necessarily mean 67.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 10:19 AM

32. We'll see Trump take victory laps.


Even if he isnít convicted Iím still glad for the impeachment. Enough is enough.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 10:29 AM

33. This is a safeguard

Removing a president is an extraordinary measure, one that shouldn't be undertaken easily or just because one party has a slight majority. The Founding Fathers rightly set this up so that a simple majority couldn't toss a president out. Among other things, unlike in the House, a majority of senators don't necessarily represent a majority of the population.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Do you have any doubt that, had Hillary won the White House and the House and Senate are controlled by Republicans that they would have immediately removed her from office and then removed her vice president and installed a Republican speaker as president? All they needed was to have one more vote than the Democrats - even though they represented only a minority of the population - and they would have completely upended the election. And don't think they wouldn't have done it.

There are many flaws in the Constitution. The 2/3 threshold to remove a president isn't one of them.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 10:39 AM

34. Convictions in federal and nearly all state courts

 

require a unanimous jury. Two thirds is a much lower standard, even if it doesn't seem so to some.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 11:14 AM

35. Nothing happens. Did Bill Clinton leave office?

We have some recent things we can look at. We should do so before making any claims about what "might happen."

The closer we stay to reality in this matter, the better we will do, I think.

On the other hand, Mitch McConnell should resign from the Senate forthwith. He has publicly stated that he will not conduct a fair trial in the Senate.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 03:39 PM

36. I don't understand

why they just brazenly announce their cheating like that. Who is he talking to, or for?

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 03:48 PM

37. McConnell is talking to Trump and to Trump's base.

That's pretty obvious. Now, what he will actually do still remains to be seen. He has, however, done something remarkably stupid in declaring that he's on Trump's side. That will taint everything he does from here on out, and we have his own words to throw back at him.

Bottom line is that the Senate will not remove Trump. What happens between now and the time that vote is taken could be very, very interesting, actually. McConnell will not be in charge during the actual trial. Chief Justice Roberts will be. That could change Mitch's plans quite a bit, really. What Roberts will do is unpredictable, but we'll get to see.

In fact, we'll get to see a lot of what goes on. And we and the media will be able to comment on it. In the end, Trump will still be in the White House, but other things may look different after all this.

Mitch McConnell has stated clearly that he's Trump's boy. That's going to backfire on him, I think.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 04:03 PM

41. Great point, but the majority voted not guilty on one and then tied for the other

Not guilty votes on the two articles were 55-45 and 50-50.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 03:51 PM

38. Of course he says

If you know that the Constitution says it's 2/3rds, then that's what it is. Just look at Andrew Johnson. The vote was lopsided and he stood.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 04:07 PM

42. It's a great question, imo.

I think it would be a catastrophe for Trump and his Republican servants if any Republicans joined Dems and voted to convict. Trump's holding his breath. About 10% of Republicans are for impeaching Trump. That's a lot of Republicans.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 04:56 PM

44. Democrats could be better at taking advantage of political opportunities.

Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

What if there are 60 votes to convict, for example? Officially, he would be considered as acquitted by our Constitution. But what would he be considered by the average person?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Dec 14, 2019, 06:20 PM

45. Unless 25 Senators decide to take a vacation outside of DC on the day of the vote...

...Dolt45 gets to stay.

If 25 Senators decide that the day of the vote is great time to visit Madagascar for a couple of weeks, then 51 out of 75 is larger than 2/3rds, and Dolt45 all of sudden meets DoJ guidelines for criminal investigations, subpoenas and charges.

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