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Demovictory9

(32,411 posts)
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 07:48 AM Dec 2019

"I study liars. I've never seen one like Donald Trump." - high rate of cruel lies

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-liar-20171208-story.html

----

In Trump's first 298 days in office, however, he made 1,628 false or misleading claims or flip-flops, by The Post's tally. That's about six per day, far higher than the average rate in our studies. And of course, reporters have access to only a subset of Trump's false statements — the ones he makes publicly — so unless he never stretches the truth in private, his actual rate of lying is almost certainly higher.

That rate has been accelerating. Starting in early October, The Post's tracking showed that Trump told a remarkable nine lies a day, outpacing even the biggest liars in our research.

But the flood of deceit isn't the most surprising finding about Trump.

Both the college students and the community members in our study served their own interests with their lies more often than other people's interests. They told lies to try to advantage themselves in the workplace, the marketplace, their personal relationships and just about every other domain of everyday life. For example, a salesperson told a customer that the jeans she was trying on were not too tight, so she could make the sale. The participants also lied to protect themselves psychologically: One college student told a classmate that he wasn't worried about his grades, so the classmate wouldn't think he was stupid.

Less often, the participants lied in kind ways, to help other people get what they wanted, look or feel better, or to spare them from embarrassment or blame. For example, a son told his mother he didn't mind taking her shopping, and a woman took sides with a friend who was divorcing, even though she thought her friend was at fault, too.

About half the lies the participants told were self-serving (46 percent for the college students, 57 percent for the community members), compared with about a quarter that were kind (26 percent for the students, 24 percent for the community members). Other lies did not fit either category; they included, for instance, lies told to entertain or to keep conversations running smoothly.

One category of lies was so small that when we reported the results, we just tucked them into a footnote. Those were cruel lies, told to hurt or disparage others. For example, one person told a co-worker that the boss wanted to see him when he really didn't, "so he'd look like a fool." Just 0.8 percent of the lies told by the college students and 2.4 percent of the lies told by the community members were mean-spirited.

My colleagues and I found it easy to code each of our participants' lies into just one category. This was not the case for Trump. Close to a quarter of his false statements (24 percent) served several purposes simultaneously.

Nearly two-thirds of Trump's lies (65 percent) were self-serving. Examples included: "They're big tax cuts — the biggest cuts in the history of our country, actually" and, about the people who came to see him on a presidential visit to Vietnam last month: "They were really lined up in the streets by the tens of thousands."

Slightly less than 10 percent of Trump's lies were kind ones, told to advantage, flatter or protect someone else. An example was his statement on Twitter that "it is a 'miracle' how fast the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police were able to find the demented shooter and stop him from even more killing!" In the broadest sense, it is possible to interpret every lie as ultimately self-serving, but I tried to stick to how statements appeared on the surface.

Trump told 6.6 times as many self-serving lies as kind ones. That's a much higher ratio than we found for our study participants, who told about double the number of self-centered lies compared with kind ones.

The most stunning way Trump's lies differed from our participants', though, was in their cruelty. An astonishing 50 percent of Trump's lies were hurtful or disparaging. For example, he proclaimed that John Brennan, James Clapper and James Comey, all career intelligence or law enforcement officials, were "political hacks." He said that "the Sloppy Michael Moore Show on Broadway was a TOTAL BOMB and was forced to close." He insisted that other "countries, they don't put their finest in the lottery system. They put people probably in many cases that they don't want." And he claimed that "Ralph Northam, who is running for Governor of Virginia, is fighting for the violent MS-13 killer gangs & sanctuary cities."
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"I study liars. I've never seen one like Donald Trump." - high rate of cruel lies (Original Post) Demovictory9 Dec 2019 OP
what makes trump different mnmoderatedem Dec 2019 #1
I think they know he's lying, they just don't care. He dewsgirl Dec 2019 #4
Trump is a reflection of the morality of his supporters--amoral and malicious. TheBlackAdder Dec 2019 #24
Heartbreaking.💔 dewsgirl Dec 2019 #32
right, they're authoritarian followers. paulkienitz Dec 2019 #34
But some of them are part of the group being taken advantage of, dewsgirl Dec 2019 #36
yup Joinfortmill Dec 2019 #41
Trumpers revel in the cruel lies since they DeminPennswoods Dec 2019 #7
BINGO! TheBlackAdder Dec 2019 #25
"trump davidians" - perfect description Duppers Dec 2019 #9
Few are raised to be leaders, many are raised to be followers and the majority are in between. TheBlackAdder Dec 2019 #26
"trump davidians" - perfect description Duppers Dec 2019 #11
Mr. Non-Presidential Fyrefox Dec 2019 #2
That is what makes it feel so hopeless. When Republicans are actively working ooky Dec 2019 #27
You mean, "radical left democrats". It's always that from IPOTUS. rickyhall Dec 2019 #39
Very interesting. Why don't our candidates talk about Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #3
Bernie seems to be the only one, at a recent rally in Los Angeles said trump is a pathological liar RestoreAmerica2020 Dec 2019 #6
I think adding statistics or actually quoting him is Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #8
The problem is it gets reduced to false equivalency localroger Dec 2019 #10
Very true point I haven't heard anyone make! Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #13
A quarter of all lies are to be kind. That's actually a lot. Hortensis Dec 2019 #5
trump is a soulless cruel, evil being liberal N proud Dec 2019 #12
"Lying" doesn't quite capture what Trump does Boomer Dec 2019 #14
He knows, as a matter of propaganda theory, that truth doesn't matter localroger Dec 2019 #15
You're giving Trump too much credit Boomer Dec 2019 #17
He is delusional. kentuck Dec 2019 #19
Mental illness is a CONCEPT, not a physical, medical disease. Eyeball_Kid Dec 2019 #21
There's a lot of "post-Szasz" science that's at odds with Szasz's "behavioral expression." VOX Dec 2019 #38
The two things are not mutually exclusive localroger Dec 2019 #33
I don't agree. Eyeball_Kid Dec 2019 #18
I thought one of the main papers had him over 16,000 in lies so far. Frustratedlady Dec 2019 #16
Looks like the above story is two years old. califootman Dec 2019 #20
Oh, OK. I missed that. n/t Frustratedlady Dec 2019 #22
The Washington Post reports that as of December 10, 2019, Trump has told 15,413 lies. LastLiberal in PalmSprings Dec 2019 #40
putin knew EXACTLY what he was buying! bluestarone Dec 2019 #23
That's because Putin's personal (ill-acquired) fortune has replaced daddy Fred's Lock him up. Dec 2019 #42
The Sun is Blue HumblePi Dec 2019 #28
The Sun is Blue HumblePi Dec 2019 #29
He is a text book sociopath tavernier Dec 2019 #30
All that cruelty is why he has the evangelical vote RainCaster Dec 2019 #31
What is flabberghasting orangecrush Dec 2019 #35
That's because (in part) they are guilty of taking money from Russian sources Lock him up. Dec 2019 #43
He keeps lying because it works for him. world wide wally Dec 2019 #37
He will never stop, because it's never his fault. Lock him up. Dec 2019 #44

mnmoderatedem

(3,718 posts)
1. what makes trump different
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 07:52 AM
Dec 2019

is the unbelievable gullibility of his supporters.

i.e. how bad he is at lying, and how readily the trump davidians will believe it.

dewsgirl

(14,961 posts)
4. I think they know he's lying, they just don't care. He
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 08:01 AM
Dec 2019

really could shoot someone. If that person he shot was a liberal, they would cheer him on.

paulkienitz

(1,296 posts)
34. right, they're authoritarian followers.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 08:25 PM
Dec 2019

They revel in a socially approved justification for cruelty, and they accept lies by choice as long as the lies are ones which reinforce the illusion that they're part of the in-group which dishes out the cruelty and exploitation, and not part of the out-group which gets taken advantage of.

dewsgirl

(14,961 posts)
36. But some of them are part of the group being taken advantage of,
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 08:36 PM
Dec 2019

the farmers and the people about to lose SS and SNAP.

DeminPennswoods

(15,264 posts)
7. Trumpers revel in the cruel lies since they
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:51 AM
Dec 2019

themselves most likely don't have the courage to say those same things to anyone.

Duppers

(28,117 posts)
9. "trump davidians" - perfect description
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:56 AM
Dec 2019

TY.

My deceased mother's next door neighbors are "tRump davidians" (better known as Baptist fundies) who believe everything tRump says.
My sis & I will be glad when our mother's estate is settled so we'll never have to interact with them again.

Duppers

(28,117 posts)
11. "trump davidians" - perfect description
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:02 AM
Dec 2019

TY.

My deceased mother's next door neighbors are "tRump davidians" (better known as Baptist fundies) who believe everything tRump says.
My sis & I will be glad when our mother's estate is settled so we'll never have to interact with them again.

Sadly that's the way I feel about most folks down there and most Republicans actually.

Fyrefox

(300 posts)
2. Mr. Non-Presidential
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 07:57 AM
Dec 2019

Trump has weaponized lying, and his supporters either believe everything he says or simply don't care. Either prospect is terrifying...

ooky

(8,903 posts)
27. That is what makes it feel so hopeless. When Republicans are actively working
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:58 AM
Dec 2019

to destroy health care, social security, etc., we know that he will blame any damage they can do on democrats and his followers will accept that lie at face value, many of them unknowingly because they only watch Fox propaganda.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
3. Very interesting. Why don't our candidates talk about
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 07:59 AM
Dec 2019

This all the time? Definitely something that could influence Indies and women.

The most stunning way Trump's lies differed from our participants', though, was in their cruelty. An astonishing 50 percent of Trump's lies were hurtful or disparaging

RestoreAmerica2020

(3,434 posts)
6. Bernie seems to be the only one, at a recent rally in Los Angeles said trump is a pathological liar
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:13 AM
Dec 2019

..and a racist. I'll have to look back at Warren, Biden and other candidates on how they talk about guy in WH. I want someone who can go toe to toe with mr know nothing gallo [jerk] we have now and imo that would have been Harris [my first choice.]

[Gallo: rooster; jerk, showoff]

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
8. I think adding statistics or actually quoting him is
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:52 AM
Dec 2019

needed. There is a treasure trove of data to get this guy. Don't get why no one digging for effective material? No savvy staff?

Example

Trump reversed Obama regulation to stop coal companies from dumping sludge into our waters that contains proven cancer causing materials! This should appall every human. Especially if a candidate plays it up .." and these are waters your kids swim and play in" !!

localroger

(3,619 posts)
10. The problem is it gets reduced to false equivalency
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:02 AM
Dec 2019

You say (truthfully) that Trump is a liar, he retorts that you (untruthfully) are working for MS-13, and the media reports it as "both sides disparage the other." Nobody has figured out what to do about that, and Trump is so outrageous that accurately calling him out on his bullshit sounds like the bullshit he slings at others.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
13. Very true point I haven't heard anyone make!
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:13 AM
Dec 2019

Why business as usual won't work. Why out-of-the-box thinking needed.

Have said a zillion times, we need a week or two long retreat. Invite the best strategic planning session leader in the business. Include the best Dem strategists, pollsters, Hollywood 💰 types, Madison Ave admen, and psychiatrists. Figure out a strategy for beating this monster MF.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
5. A quarter of all lies are to be kind. That's actually a lot.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 08:09 AM
Dec 2019

Very, very few lies are told to be cruel. This study reports a low of 0.8% among college students, who, according to reports on young people, have been given great new freedom and encouragement to be cruel by social media.

Wow! Even if the numbers are lower and higher, that's meme-blowing. Apparently we're a lot nicer than if-it-bleeds-it-leads journalism leads us to believe. Nothing new to that last.

Although, how do they handle political lies swallowed and regurgitated? Avoid politics? Give people who absorb lies as truths a pass? Not as many people do as imagined or lied for this study?

Whatever, still far better than I would have imagined.

Boomer

(4,167 posts)
14. "Lying" doesn't quite capture what Trump does
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:14 AM
Dec 2019

Trump really doesn't intentionally lie, it's more that he's completely detached from what is true and what is not. He is creating his own reality, the one that pleases him and flatters him at any given moment. His sole focus is himself, and he does not recognize anything outside his own bubble of self-created grandeur.

The distinction is really important. Most liars are sane, they see reality and knowingly distort facts; they can control their own behavior. Trump is delusional, which makes him especially dangerous. He can't be reasoned with, he won't stop lying when it's strategically advantageous to him because he can't see beyond the immediate need for ego protection and gratification. He lives moment to moment, and he's taking everyone else along for the ride.

localroger

(3,619 posts)
15. He knows, as a matter of propaganda theory, that truth doesn't matter
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:29 AM
Dec 2019

A professional propagandist would probably say Trump is overdoing it, because he's making it too obvious, but inasmuch as it works for his "base" it works because people would rather believe something that supports their existing belief structure, even if that structure is inconsistent and delusional, than something that challenges that structure, even if it's something they've seen with their own eyes. This is why the "big lie" works, and why it's working for Trump at least on the 40% or so even though he's winging it and doing it way too much. The media, who are supposed to be our professional truth-tellers, are (perhaps with some cause) afraid of being the force that challenges such a widespread mass delusion and so they waffle with false equivalence and "bothesiderism" even when they know the truth themselves.

This isn't a new thing in American public discourse. The character of Berzelius Windrip was written into It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis in 1935. Windrip does all the things Trump does, with disturbingly prescient results.

Boomer

(4,167 posts)
17. You're giving Trump too much credit
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:45 AM
Dec 2019

I agree with you about the general concept of lying and propaganda, but you're missing the point where Trump is concerned. He's not "overdoing it" because it's not a conscious ploy that he is adopting. The man is ILL, mentally ill, and that's what makes him a loose cannon. What you see as lies, Trump sees as the necessary truth -- necessary to prop up his ego and the vision he has of himself. He has no control over any of what he says. As an extreme narcissist, he bends reality for his own survival. He is literally incapable of recognizing anything that contradicts the illusion of his superiority.

The media have failed, but not because they're slow to call him a liar. They're too slow to point out that the man is delusional and senile. His brain is melting right in front of us, and yet everyone keeps acting as if he's a functioning human being.

kentuck

(111,037 posts)
19. He is delusional.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:03 AM
Dec 2019

Dangerously so, I would agree.

But it seems to be a paranoid delusion, also. Everyone that disagrees is an enemy. This results in lies that create division.

In my opinion, the lies are poisonous to our society. After a while, a society becomes confused and is unable to distinguish the lies from reality.

With a tool like Twitter, there is always an endless supply of lies.

Eyeball_Kid

(7,429 posts)
21. Mental illness is a CONCEPT, not a physical, medical disease.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:12 AM
Dec 2019

Quite some time ago, psychiatrist Thomas Szasz made this abundantly clear in a series of books, including "The Myth of Mental Illness." His scholarly works should have been read by more than a few professionals. So much poor information has been generated by the "counter-concept" of a medical disease model for the etiology of mental health that the trillions spent on pharmaceuticals and "treatment programs" has veritably legitimized the treatment of "mental illness" as a medical issue. Without going into the weeds of the issue, Szasz (successfully, in my opinion) argues that "mental illness" is a behavioral expression of a damaged human spirit. I suggest that those who are interested might want to explore this possibility.

As it all relates to Trump, my view is that attributing his behavior pattern to a "disease" like "mental illness" places the entire genre of his behavior into a narrative that is exculpatory. The "illness" exists outside of his own capacity to make decisions. The illness is the "other", and thus becomes an excuse for Trumpy to do more of the same as he and those who support him can claim that his madness is not his fault. When we do this, we give creedence to the idea that Trumpy can do whatever he wishes and be unaccountable because his behavior is never his fault. It's the "disease", remember.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
38. There's a lot of "post-Szasz" science that's at odds with Szasz's "behavioral expression."
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:17 PM
Dec 2019

Some examples:

-Various disorders that have a genetic component— specific genes associated with the disorders.
-The physical brain abnormalities found in schizophrenia and some bipolar disorders.
-Low levels of serotonin seen in mood and anxiety disorders.

Just my layperson’s devalued nickel’s worth.

localroger

(3,619 posts)
33. The two things are not mutually exclusive
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 01:55 PM
Dec 2019

I am pretty sure Trump took some training in Bernays style propaganda techniques, probably via an exclusive high dollar seminar when he was in his twenties. He has made some of these techniques habits which he has been using for so long he may not even remember just why he does them. So there is a weird combination of method and madness to his performance.

Eyeball_Kid

(7,429 posts)
18. I don't agree.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:54 AM
Dec 2019

Trumpy chooses to create his own set of assertions (i.e., his "bubble&quot FOR HIS OWN PROTECTION against challengers. This is a conscious choice. He's always had enough MONEY to buy a degree of legitimacy and to ruin those who dare call him out. Yes, he's lost billions, but his initial wealth and his late father's constant use of funds to bail him out is legion. He's thrown away billions because he insists on creating a myth for himself AS A BUSINESS MODEL. His money keeps him from being legally accountable. These are conscious decisions.

That Trumpy believes his own lies is also a conscious decision. He expresses psychosis when his creations not just conflate with the reality for the rest of us, but indeed dominate the spectrum of experience and perspective. The degree to which conscious volition determines Trumpy's actions are seen in his everyday maintenance of several lies at once. Trumpy must ask himself, on a regular basis, "Who am I?", to which he answers by reinforcing his own "brand" or marketing his persona. He must attempt, at every opportunity, to make his persona the person he really is. That he always must reinforce his brand indicates that it needs constant lying to maintain a degree of consistency that keeps his brand public and dominant. In other words, lying to himself is mandatory. If he doesn't lie to himself, his entire world collapses.

califootman

(120 posts)
20. Looks like the above story is two years old.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:03 AM
Dec 2019

The link didn't work for me, but the story appears to be from Dec 2017.

40. The Washington Post reports that as of December 10, 2019, Trump has told 15,413 lies.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:24 PM
Dec 2019
President Trump has made 15,413 false or misleading claims over 1,055 days

In 2017, President Trump made nearly 1,999 false or misleading claims. In 2018, he added another 5,689, for a total of 7,688.

Now, with a few weeks still left in 2019, the president already has more than doubled the total number of false or misleading claims in just a single year.

As of Dec. 10, his 1,055th day in office, Trump had made 15,413 false or misleading claims, according to the Fact Checker’s database that analyzes, categorizes and tracks every suspect statement he has uttered. That’s an average of more than 32 claims a day since our last update 62 days ago.

source



bluestarone

(16,833 posts)
23. putin knew EXACTLY what he was buying!
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:18 AM
Dec 2019

The ONLY person in the whole world that would do what putin wanted is tRUMP! Beyond words to describe tRUMP! Every filthy fucking word describes him!

Lock him up.

(6,913 posts)
42. That's because Putin's personal (ill-acquired) fortune has replaced daddy Fred's
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 03:32 AM
Dec 2019

constant bail outs in his mind (even if kind of unconsciously), and in his childish mind, he thinks he'll be 'safe' from any accountability for as long as he will keep doing his 'new daddy' happy (or nodding...)

HumblePi

(46 posts)
28. The Sun is Blue
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 12:07 PM
Dec 2019

Donald Trump could literally make the statement that the sun is actually blue and get away with it. He could spin some sort of fantasy about the core of the sun being so white-hot that it's actually blue. Sounds good to them, they'd buy it.

Getting right down to it, his base doesn't care, not only that he lies, but his lies are so vile that they modify our entire government. We shouldn't bother caring about the environment or supporting causes for cleaning up the air and seas. We shouldn't give a damn that there's still thousands of small children living in private detention centers that are getting rich holding these kids hostage and all on our tax dollars. We shouldn't care that Russia has demolished just about everything this country has been so proud of for the past 240 years, our Constitutional democracy. We shouldn't give a damn anymore or honor all those hundreds of thousands of men and women who died in wars defending democracy around the world. It doesn't matter if our uncles died in WW2 or Korea or whether half our high school graduating class died in rice paddy fields in a god-forsaken country in the Indochinese peninsula of Vietnam.

Why do we insist on caring anymore, about anything to do with this country? "E Pluribus Unum" -- what? That has no meaning anymore, it's just an old saying we used to take seriously.

HumblePi

(46 posts)
29. The Sun is Blue
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 12:09 PM
Dec 2019

Donald Trump could literally make the statement that the sun is actually blue and get away with it. He could spin some sort of fantasy about the core of the sun being so white-hot that it's actually blue. Sounds good to them, they'd buy it.

Getting right down to it, his base doesn't care, not only that he lies, but his lies are so vile that they modify our entire government. We shouldn't bother caring about the environment or supporting causes for cleaning up the air and seas. We shouldn't give a damn that there's still thousands of small children living in private detention centers that are getting rich holding these kids hostage and all on our tax dollars. We shouldn't care that Russia has demolished just about everything this country has been so proud of for the past 240 years, our Constitutional democracy. We shouldn't give a damn anymore or honor all those hundreds of thousands of men and women who died in wars defending democracy around the world. It doesn't matter if our uncles died in WW2 or Korea or whether half our high school graduating class died in rice paddy fields in a god-forsaken country in the Indochinese peninsula in Vietnam.

Why do we insist on caring anymore, about anything to do with this country? "E Pluribus Unum" -- what? That has no meaning anymore, it's just an old saying we used to take seriously.

tavernier

(12,363 posts)
30. He is a text book sociopath
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 12:40 PM
Dec 2019

so lying is as natural to him as breathing.

I’m surprised that so few people recognize that.

orangecrush

(19,348 posts)
35. What is flabberghasting
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 08:31 PM
Dec 2019

Is we have a legislative body (in the Senate) that is willing to prevent removing this clear and present danger to the national interest and security from office.

And it is getting worse by the day, in giant steps.

Lock him up.

(6,913 posts)
43. That's because (in part) they are guilty of taking money from Russian sources
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 03:39 AM
Dec 2019

laundered (like him, although less, but as illegal) and they KNOW it.

Of course they want to cover their own ass above everything else, including their oaths!

world wide wally

(21,733 posts)
37. He keeps lying because it works for him.
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:02 PM
Dec 2019

Why would he stop if lies get him what he wants?
He will only stop when he actually has to pay for his lying.
That is up to the people he lies to.

Lock him up.

(6,913 posts)
44. He will never stop, because it's never his fault.
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 03:42 AM
Dec 2019

It's always someone else who's wrong, never him. Always been that way, and will always be that way (in his mind).

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