I watched Rachel Maddow's special on abortion last night

[milestogo]

And I have to say it was pretty frightening. I knew some of the history of intimidation, but I didn't realize how difficult it continues to be to operate a clinic that provides abortion services. Doctors are being flown in and out of some areas because nobody wants to live in the area where they perform abortions, for fear of being bullied or worse.

As the court moves to the right this is only going to get worse.

The right doesn't trust women to make their own health care decisions.

[uppityperson]

1. K&R

[Ohiogal]

2. They are sick woman-haters

My motto is, if you don’t believe in abortion, then don’t have one.

[dewsgirl]

6. Exactly and what pisses me off, is the hypocrisy of some

of them.

[DownriverDem]

21. Women will

die thanks to repubs. When I was a kid, young women went away and hid when they got pregnant. There were unwed women's homes that they went to. We are in deep trouble when the Supreme Court overturns Roe v Wade. What POs me is that during the 2016 election, we were all warned that it was more than about Hillary. It was about the court judges too. We will suffer for years thanks to folks not listening. Here we are again. Will they listen this time?

[Kaiserguy]

30. Chances are that the answer is

no!

[smirkymonkey]

38. +1000

They don't give a damn about unborn children. They only want to control women. The minute these "children" are born they are scrambling to deprive them and their mothers of what they need to thrive and live healthy lives. Their hypocrisy makes me sick.

[CrispyQ]

3. This is not about trusting women to make their own decisions, this is about forced birth.

This is about making women a servant class.

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, [e-mail]

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers


I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.

=========

Parents can't be compelled to donate their organs to their child, even to save the child's life. Why does a fetus, then, have more claim on a woman's body and life?

I don't know why PP, Naral, and other pro-choice groups don't add this argument to their toolbox.

[soldierant]

19. That was exactly my reaction.

Expecting them to trust women, or even consider trusting women, is itself irrational. Women are not considered high enough in the scheme of things for trusting them to even be considered.


There's a rerason the words are "testimony" and "testify."

[sandensea]

24. And the best part is, that once the baby's born they're on their own

The anti-choice crowd are almost always the same ones that wail and gnash their teeth at the very mention of even modest public programs to benefit young mothers and their babies.

They want them to be born...and then they want them to die. They really are that sick.

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. You are almost quoting George Carlin.

[crimycarny]

32. Nails it

That is my biggest hot button with these rabid anti-abortion fanatics who talk about "murdering babies"...when those babies are born they want nothing to do with it. George Carlin articulates this hypocrisy perfectly. Miss him!

[sandensea]

40. Perfect! Thank you.

Nobody told the great truths of our age better than George Carlin.

The things he would say about this one!

[Mopar151]

34. The orphan babies belong to the Church, not sinners!

Those sinful, fallen women have no right to those clean, low mileage Cuties! Great terms, on your good Christian Credit!

[sandensea]

39. Praise the Lawd!

And after we sell that (healthy, white) baby, Pass the Loot!

[Ilsa]

4. I've wondered about turning their tactics of harassment back on them.

Let them know that we are putting their names, faces, habits out there, by posting, putting out signage, that they support, encourage, and abet the murdering doctors and nurses in cold blood while they are in church, on the way to work, etc. Let them feel some fear about being doxxed. Use identifying signs against them when they are hassling clinic patients and employees. Follow them and write down their license plate numbers,whether they are run or not.

I don't like it, but it might be the only way to get them to back off.

[2naSalit]

5. It's more about control over women

who are still seen by too many as second class citizens or less.

[Greybnk48]

7. Christian domestic terrorists have run rampant in our country

for decades with few repercussions. They have been permitted to run money scams on television, and have gobbled up hundreds of am radio stations for propaganda. The anti-abortionists, anti-women's rights groups have literally gotten away with terrorism in plain sight, including murder. The wanted posters and doxxing techniques with actual bounties posted were permitted to continue. It's disgusting.

It's odd since the reality is that they are in a significant minority in the United States as opposed to those who support birth control and reproductive rights.

Here again. A vicious, loud minority is given a voice over a majority because why? It keeps us off balance? Or some men do NOT want to lose the close to last "power" they have over women?

[Hotler]

8. If you needed a reason to tax churches, the meanness of the

parishioners is reason is enough.

[Maraya1969]

9. I think all the deaths that these people turn a blind eye to; like Iraq

and Afghanistan wars which the World Health Organization attributes 100 million dead to need to be screamed out over their heads.

I don't know the numbers now on how many deaths can be attributed to not expanding Medicaid but I know it is a lot.

When they bring up these things we need to point out how they don't care about actual people dying as a result of their votes and other actions.

[Hortensis]

10. :) How about if we don't let the court move to the right?

We have a huge election coming up. And Justice Ginsberg has just 1 year and 21 days she must hang on now.

In democracies moral, responsible people always have a responsibility to keep the others in check. In ours things were so good for so long that too many became spoiled and complacent. And conceited; what happened in other nations couldn't happen here.

Kavanaugh and Gorsuch are as much the fault of those who didn't vote against the Republicans as they are of the Republicans themselves. It took massive stupidity on the part of many millions over many elections to allow the shocking development of massive RW corruption and extremism in our government.

And it's become such a simple choice. Those who say there's nothing to vote for, that Democrats are as bad as Republicans, are either lying for evil purpose or whackjobs.

[brokephibroke]

11. Instead of practicing the tenants of Christianity

The anti abortion nuts seek to take away free will from women. As I recall God gave Man free will. Who are these people who feel they are better than God?

[maxsolomon]

12. You're talking past them; they don't do higher concepts like Free Will.

They do binary oppositions. Black/White, Good/Bad. Not gray areas.

Murder is in the 10 Commandments. They think Abortion is murder, and deadly force is justified to stop it. End of debate.

They've used their tax-free religious organizations to make RTL a de-facto position of the politicians they put in office. Those politicians control the states where Abortion Rights are under sustained assault. It's taken 4 decades to get to this point. And they indoctrinate new generations while they're in school; my cousins bussed their kids to DC every year for RTL marches.

To turn the tide, Dems have to take back legislatures, and overturn laws, in parts of the country where there are few liberals left, and control the White House and the Senate permanently.

None of that seems realistic in a nation basting in Right Wing Propaganda for decades.

[brokephibroke]

15. I think you can reach a few with the free will argument

But most are lost in their base emotions and are immovable. Ultimately your approach is the only pragmatic one.

[maxsolomon]

17. I don't see it as pragmatic; I don't see it happening at all during my lifetime.

I think RTL Legislatures will succeed in the states they can control, and all clinics will be driven out. Especially after watching the TRMS special.

I admire your optimism, though.

[TommyCelt]

20. Your posit is true...

Murder is in the 10 Commandments. They think Abortion is murder, and deadly force is justified to stop it. End of debate.

There is no reasoning past this basic point. I was a practicing Catholic for decades. The above is how many Christians of generally good conscience justify the rest of this administration's damaging sewage. I have had arguments bringing my opponent to tears of shame, for his/her support of this POS. However...

"Yes, he's a POS, totally unfit for office. BUT THE BABIES..."

Hardcore RTL'ers will puke in the voting booth with disgust. But guaranteed, they will pull the lever for trump.

[Mersky]

13. Somehow, I mentally blocked out that clinics have to fly in doctors to clinics

In areas that are terroristically hostile to abortion providers. Not sure how I could forget such, except that it’s abhorrent to think that this level of extremism exists in my country.

The non-debate over abortion has been launched into the stratosphere in recent years and is so detached from medical, scientific, and sociological reality. It hasn’t been an open policy debate at all. It’s been a threatening movement of thinking errors and religious extremism. I am appalled every time I encounter the basic republican refrain,... tRump is terrible, or just a tepid, not good, but the judges!

What about the judges? Yeah, what about them? Because when they say judges they mean anti-abortion, and really, they mean anti-women’s rights type ideologies.

I want to know about the women’s stories. I want to know about the reality of what safe and legal abortion does for women and society.

Why aren’t they asking what about all the women and children who wouldn’t be alive if not for safe abortion? What about the abortion rates being the same or higher in countries where abortion is banned? What about the the effects of one woman having so many children so quickly the rest of her siblings have to have fewer children? What about women who don’t have the support, will, health, or ability to carry a child to term?

Do they argue that abortion should be available up until a fetus can, on average, survive healthfully outside the womb? Do they create a real debate at that margin? No. It’s gotta be all or nothing, based on some narrow religious view that majority of Americans do not ascribe to.

I am aghast that republican politicians would continue in ditto-headed lockstep fashion towards condemning their own daughters to a world with less than they themselves took advantage of in the years since Roe.

[Farmer-Rick]

14. It is a horrible situation for women.

But maybe promoting the abortion pill can help. India allows it over the counter without a doctor. You can still buy it on line here in the US. If you have emergency services in your local area, this maybe the answer for you.

Visit this site for more info
https://www.womenonweb.org/en/page/3074/buy-abortion-pills-mifepristone-online-misoprostol-online

[demtenjeep]

16. Wichita is my home

it was terror

[Scalded Nun]

18. They are so much more dangerous than 'Normal Terrorists'

because they are pretty much allowed to practice their terrorism unchecked by any law enforcement. No resistance and accountability means additional empowerment for these evil assholes.

This has EVERYTHING to do with control over women and there is nothing Christian about this. The MSM (my opinion, mind you) in their continued slanted coverage is just as complicit as law enforcement.

Rachael has continued providing the necessary coverage, not for entertainment, but for education and awareness. Too bad that so much of the MSM (and that includes a large segment of MSNBC) just cares about the entertainment value.

[dlk]

22. The pathology that causes people to calculatedly murder anyone connected with abortion

is the same pathology that makes people threaten a civil war over Trump. They are dangerous and social media has given them a platform with a microphone.

[BuffaloJackalope]

23. Call them what they are - religious terrorists

Just like al Qaeda.

[YOHABLO]

26. As long as Trump keeps stacking the courts with RW zealots, we're all doomed.

[Delmette2.0]

27. So many terrific replies.

All I can do is support $$ Planned Parenthood and any other group supporting women's rights.

[Wellstone ruled]

28. Okay,watched a small group

of fellow Workers develop into a group of real ugly Persons. This was in the late Seventies and these Men would gather together during Break Time to do their Prayer Sessions and read Scripture. It started with two fellows that belonged to a Fundamentalist Church,I mean way out there Church,and they recruited three more to join their group. Long story short,within in about a six month time frame,this Group became one of the most dangerous Anti Abortion groups in Minnesota. If there was a protest against a Clinic,you just knew someone from this group or their family members were part of that protest.

And these suckers would do their level best to recruit other fellow workers or brag about how they were able to stop someone from receiving services at a Clinic. Talk about a hostile work environment.

[onecaliberal]

29. States are passing trap laws to ensure women are denied access.

Abortion doctors cannot live in the states they practice because of the threat to their lives. If they don’t live in the state they cannot get admitting privileges. This is how the right will ban abortions in some states. The new clown court drunk will make sure to let the trap laws stand all but banning abortions.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

31. I posted this elsewhere on DU a few days ago.

It also belongs here.

https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/motherhood/?fbclid=IwAR3MgZZXcRTDDvPSLOdeXyR7j3fhrFggKKeTnER0YjsRKZ2QPws1Eoab0CI

[Jeebo]

33. My father was a Southern Baptist preacher...

... and I went to Sunday School classes as a kid in Southern Baptist churches. I vividly recall discussions in Sunday School classes about the issue of when does the soul enter the body? The teaching then was that the soul enters the baby's body at or very near the moment of birth, when the delivery doctor slaps the infant's behind to get respiration started, and God breathes the breath of life into the newborn child. That was in the 1950s and 1960s, before Roe v. Wade. I was born in 1949.

Since Roe v. Wade, I believe religious people have subtly changed their teachings on this issue. Now, they claim that life begins at birth and therefore, abortion even in the early weeks of pregnancy is murder. Never mind that they all mark their lives as beginning at the moment of their birth -- that's the date on their birth certificates, passports, driver's licenses, social security cards, etc. If they're going to claim that life begins at conception, maybe they should all promote changing all those dates to their conception date instead of their birth date. Maybe I shouldn't be giving them any ideas, but at least this would make them consistent. Consistent with everything they're clamoring for now, but not with what they were teaching me in Sunday School classes in the 1950s and 1960s.

I'm rambling a bit now, but the reason I started this post was to point out the inconsistency between what religious people were teaching back then (at least by my recollections) and their very different claims now. Does anybody else here remember Sunday School discussions about this issue from before Roe v. Wade?

-- Ron

[MuseRider]

35. I "knew" Dr. Tiller

The quotes because I spoke with him some and was in his presence and I knew well the women and men who worked with him but cannot say we were more than occasionally at the same table. He spent some time up here in Topeka with the lobbyists who worked those issues. He was not going to leave. I wish he had and took the choice to live himself. His death was a huge loss for women.

[demtenjeep]

36. agree

I have friends who were in the room (church) when it happened.

They no longer attend any church-they can't

[gulliver]

37. I'm not sure Roe v. Wade is helping anymore.

Roe v. Wade is a rallying cry for Republicans. Overturning it would force the issue into the legislative arena. If it were overturned (as appears more and more likely), then state-level Republican politicians would be forced by their bases to try to outlaw abortion completely (instead of just besieging it to death with clever legal landmines and court cases).

But outlawing abortion would be a problem for Republicans in most states, imo. The dog would have caught the car, the dogcatcher's car in this case. Republicans would have to specify how many years doctors and women would be jailed, for example. If the laws weren't harsh, their base would be enraged. But harsh laws would be political suicide.