General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo what makes Kobe any better than Brett Kavanaugh?
I realize this is gonna be a bit controversial, but I'm legitimately wondering. In fact, what Kobe allegedly did was even WORSE than what Brett did. What's grinding my gears is that all the people who demonized Kavanaugh are idolizing Kobe and acting like he's some kind of fallen hero. "Oh, but he turned his life around and became a great dad and family man. We shouldn't let a mistake he made when he was younger ruin his legacy". Hello? That's EXACTLY the defense people always bring up for Kavanaugh's actions. Either we believe that people can redeem themselves even in cases like this, or we need to hold the line and say that rape/attempted rape can NEVER be forgiven. I'm in the never forgiven camp tbh. There's no excuse for raping/attempting to rape somebody. None. It shows an undeniable lack of empathy for others, and a total lack of self-control.
Please let's not have everybody freak out or alert on this or something. Trying to have a legitimate discussion here.
awesomerwb1
(4,267 posts)Keep calculating.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)And responded with a personal attack.
lame54
(35,282 posts)Fullduplexxx
(7,852 posts)lame54
(35,282 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Hardly confronting.
lame54
(35,282 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Hes a fucking rapist too.
They both got away with it.
Rape apologists on DU. Yuck.
lame54
(35,282 posts)How is Kobe different from Kavanaugh?
But all answers are flat out rejected
Could of saved us time but telling us it was a rhetorical question
A discussion of what Kobe did is fair but the way this was framed is ridiculous
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case
But BOY he was good at sports!
Hekate
(90,633 posts)...question, so just deal with the answers.
rockfordfile
(8,701 posts)janterry
(4,429 posts)Legally, you see them both as unforgivable?
And thus no treatment for either? Or do we ostracize them forever and give them treatment?
I consider rape to be unforgiveable. I would never even consider it, and expect others to have similar empathy and self-control. There's something deeply wrong with anyone who would rape someone.
janterry
(4,429 posts)lobby for men and women to be locked up forever. No second chances. And no treatment.
Fullduplexxx
(7,852 posts)Calculating
(2,955 posts)They re-offend at a much higher rate than other criminals. "Is it fair to take their whole life away though?" Ask their victims, who will be traumatized and forever broken the rest of their lives in some cases. Rape doesn't kill people, but it can destroy them emotionally for a long time afterwards and leave them a shell of what they were. It's an awful crime, second only to murder/torture imo.
janterry
(4,429 posts)I'm glad you said some. Many people with trauma and PTSD experience recovery, too.
Did you really just try to say that many people get over and forget about their rape? In defense of giving rapists a second chance?
Today is a good day for me to stay off of DU.
Squinch
(50,935 posts)jcgoldie
(11,627 posts)Thats a pretty interesting way to describe a rape allegation.
janterry
(4,429 posts)- I'm sure you've read the literature.
But so have I -
and I've worked with a lot of men who have one incident
and I've worked with others (though less directly) who are serial rapists.
jcgoldie
(11,627 posts)Im not saying people cant turn their lives around and Im obviously not saying one rape is the same as many but describing a person who raped a woman as being involved in an incident is bullshit passive voice rationalization.
janterry
(4,429 posts)and I'm not rationalizing anything. I've worked with those men. I know what I am talking about.
eta: the hypothetical was about those who are rapists (completed the crime) and those that made an attempt. The hypothetical was not about 2 rapists.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Maybe you should work with some victims.
janterry
(4,429 posts)and I have worked with MANY victims.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Ugh.
janterry
(4,429 posts)so, I'm out.
Peace to you.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Or those who make apologies for them. How do you feel about Weinstein? Poor misunderstood man.
I know someone who was raped. It was not an incident she was involved in.
Ugh, again.
Squinch
(50,935 posts)have worked with them or not.
Jesus.
unitedwethrive
(1,997 posts)Respecting someone after they die, for at least a few days, is one of the few civilities we have left.
Yavin4
(35,432 posts)Nope. See social media.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)See any death of any Republican.
unitedwethrive
(1,997 posts)Maybe I'll just go now.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)I believe Bryant apologized, showed remorse and settled out of court with the woman - estimated to be around $2.5 million.
I did not see any apology or remorse from Kavanaugh.
bearsfootball516
(6,376 posts)hlthe2b
(102,200 posts)hlthe2b
(102,200 posts)from her own home and threaten her and her family for years afterwards.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)tenderfoot
(8,425 posts)eom
maxrandb
(15,316 posts)Russian Bots will even use the death of a prominent sports star to sow division.
Sometimes I fucking hate social media.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)consensual.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)She later brought a civil case and they settled.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But if memory serves me right, legal experts were saying that the case had been so badly compromised that acquittal was the most likely outcome.
The civil trial does not have the same weight as a criminal trial, the threshold in a civil trial is much lower. Bryant could have settled to get it all behind him so that he could start rebuilding whatever he sought to rebuild and $2.5 million was a low price to pay for him.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,165 posts)The woman refused to testify. This was Kobe's apology. Compare this to the behavior of Brett Kavanaugh or Harvey Weinstein.
"First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colorado. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case.
Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado."
nolabear
(41,959 posts)If I think you understand the difference we can go from there. What he did appears to have been wrong though I dont know the absolute truth of it. What he did afterward was vastly different.
oasis
(49,370 posts)Kobe has worked hard to redeem his character. It's best we let Kobe rest in peace.
Quixote1818
(28,927 posts)I think it's a fair question. I don't know much about the alleged Kobe rape but it seems like there were some holes in the girls story wasn't there? And she had semen from another fellow in her underwear. I could be wrong.
All I know is women who have been raped seem a lot more sensitive to this and I can see why it would be hurtful to them.
Solomon
(12,310 posts)the allegation. In addition to the other semen, she admitted it was consensual at the start but said no or stop after it started. Not saying what he did wasn't wrong, but to me the Kavanaugh stuff was worse.
kcr
(15,315 posts)There were no holes in the allegation.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)body or on her underwear. Also some coworkers testified that she wanted to meet Kobe and stated that. End the end it came down to credibility.
cyclonefence
(4,483 posts)but I was waiting and waiting for somebody to bring up the rape accusation against Kobe. The victim withdrew the charges in return for a cash settlement, which says to me her accusation was credible. Finally, a Philadelphia sportswriter talked about Kobe's flaws, comparing him to Tiger Woods.
I believe that professional athletes, especially excellent ones (and it doesn't hurt to be handsome, either) are accustomed to having women fling themselves at them, and I think it's easy for the athletes to assume that any woman they desire is theirs for the taking. This does not excuse sexual misbehavior, but I think it supports my personal belief that there are lots of rapes committed by big-time professional athletes that go unreported, for a variety of reasons--including cash settlements.
Let the brickbats begin. I'm a big girl--I can take it.
jcgoldie
(11,627 posts)At least not that Im aware. Dont get me wrong I think Tigers a complete asshole but rape is a crime of violence. And lots of rapes committed by professional athletes excuses nothing.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)There are some good responses in this thread, too.
evertonfc
(1,713 posts)A young man just passed away with his 13 yo daughter and you want to discuss a rape allegation from over 15 years ago? An allegation that was never prosecuted. How do we even know an assault occurred? That said, this is a discussion for later as his daughters remains were just removed from the side of a mountain. We don't have to forget about the rape allegation but why bring it up now? Yes, allegations are to be taken serious but so are cases where a person wasn't convicted. How about letting the family bury their loved one's, remember the people Kobe touched and inspired and then, if for some strange reason, someone is obsessed enough to talk about an alleged crime 15 years ago- go for it.
Quixote1818
(28,927 posts)been raped. It's horrible his daughter was killed and that he was killed as I do believe he changed and grew as a person but we also need to be sensitive to those whose lives have been devastated from rape.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)We can't marginalize his past sins and make him out to be some kind of hero. He was a man with issues who worked hard to redeem himself, but we can never forget what he did in the past.
maxrandb
(15,316 posts)There was an allegation, an accusation and a settlement. As part of that settlement, I don't believe Kobe was required to admit anything other than a consensual incident. He was surely never convicted of rape.
Additionally, everything he's done since then has been to devote his considerable media influence to elevate women in sports and industry.
Mickey's Big Mouth Brett has done nothing but use his considerable influence to use the power of the state to take women back... not to the 1950's, but back to the 1850's.
I have no idea what happened in Denver, and neither do you.
I have a good friend whose wife accused him of molesting their daughter when they were going through a divorce. It cost him his reputation, a promotion that he had earned, and ruined his life. That accusation was later proven to be false.
Like victims of rape feel about those accused of rape, my friend feels the same about those convicted by accusation.
I think we would all live in a better world if we looked at and judged people by their totality... not as we believe them to be, but as they truly are.
Our political world loves for us to not look at the totality of a person... that way, someone like Donnie Shit for Brains can pretend that he's anti-corruption.
People are more than one part. If I look at the totality that I know about Kobe, and compare it to the totality of what I know about Kavanaugh, I know which one I'd trust with my daughter.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)You said everything I wanted to say.
Vivienne235729
(3,383 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Conviction isn't the end all for showing guilt.
mfcorey1
(11,001 posts)gravitate to Mr. Bryant if they had not observed that. On the other hand, Kavanaugh sought to use the manipulation of a corrupt system to gain a seat on the Supreme Court. On his journey he has not apologized and but he has aligned himself with ideology that will marginalize the underserved. At least Mr. Bryant has used his lifetime of redemption to reach out to so many with compassion and understanding. That is why you see so much love sent his way. People talk of knowing him for mentorship, advice about life when it seems they are falling, loving their children and so much more. I have not seen Kavanaugh visit anything but a rethuglican forum. We have the right to let others enter our lives, vicariously or physically, and when they are no longer there, we find an empty void. This is from the heart of one who has never met Mr. Bryant in person. However, I have followed his life through the ups and downs and I have found the beauty of redemption. My heart aches at the loss of his life, and the many others who were travelers with him on that fateful day. It speaks to our incarceration system that a person sentenced to 30 years for stealing a bottle of soda will forever be looked upon as a thief even though the exit from the penal system, if allowed, should begin his journey to redemption. In other words, in response to this post, to each his own.
RockRaven
(14,958 posts)Bananaluver
(83 posts)GitRDun
(1,846 posts)My guess is you would not want to be held to the same standard.
Redemption is a good thing.
Siwsan
(26,257 posts)Even though I am no stranger to grief from a sudden, unexpected death, I can't begin to fathom what they are going through.
Midnight Writer
(21,738 posts)Forgive him or not, that is up to you. But nobody was proposing that we put Kobe in charge of deciding the fate of others.
His job was to through balls through a hoop, not stand in judgement over others.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)DNA evidence was taken as part of that process. The case started becoming dicey after that since there was evidence of multiple male specimens, not just Kobe. She also left her position in the hotel to go to his room although there were no job-related duties that required her there.
The case looked to be coming down to a withdrawal of consent. At some time, she consented, then she withdrew consent. She settled for an apology from him and an admission that it wasn't consensual instead of attending a trial and both of them having to explain why she left her job to go to his room, when was it consensual and when did you change your mind, and what about the DNA evidence of multiple males. This is all from what I remember reading about 17 years ago, but there were other things about their encounter I won't get into here since I'd have to look it up again anyways.
When was Kavanaugh arrested, charged, and evidence collected?? Never. It's not a matter of believing Kobe's accuser, because she never testified. She settled for the apology and about 2.5 million in settlement money. Kobe learned his lesson that consent can be withdrawn at any time. Neither had to testify in court, so that seemed to be the mutual settlement.
This was nothing like Kavanaugh.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)He said to the police that Shaq does this to women all the time, but buys the women fancy cars to buy their silence. There were no other specimens in her vagina, there was specimens on a 2nd pair of underwear that were dirty that she wore to the examination, that were from the past.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryants-disturbing-rape-case-the-dna-evidence-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)from the beginning, almost 17 years ago now. Im not going to get into a Google article war.
So she wore dirty panties that had another mans DNA to an exam. Who does that. It pretty much ruins your case for obvious reasons. Of course the timing of that intercourse would be relevant.
She dropped the criminal case, but kept the civil case where she can get money. So the article is right in the statement that what happened in that room will remain a mystery because she chose not to testify. Courts usually assign victim advocates, so she would have had help and recourse if she was being harassed.
FWIW, I had no reason to not believe her, until she went for the money instead of testifying. Some parts of her story were also disputed, such as an employee who saw her and contradicted some things she said.
Anyway, this is nothing like the Kavanaugh case.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/washington-post-suspends-reporter-who-tweeted-about-kobe-bryant-rape-allegations-following-his-death/2020/01/27/babe9c04-413b-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html#comments-wrapper
The Washington Post has placed on administrative leave a reporter who tweeted a link to a news story about rape allegations against the late basketball star Kobe Bryant after his death on Sunday, saying her tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues.
The tweet by political reporter Felicia Sonmez sparked a furious backlash on social media, with many deeming it inappropriate just hours after Bryant and his daughter, Gianna, were killed in a helicopter crash outside of Los Angeles. In the wake of her posting, Sonmez said she received death and rape threats and her home address was posted online, compelling her to stay at a hotel overnight.
The Post placed Sonmez on paid leave while newsroom managers look into the episode.
(Most of the comments on WaPo support the woman tweeting about this and WaPo should not censor this. This always happens when a celebrity person that most people like dies. People say it is the wrong time to bring up their past, but it is normal to bring these things up when they die).
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Including people citing it as "white women problems".
moondust
(19,972 posts)Kobe was not seeking a position of power--for life--that could adversely affect the lives of millions in so many ways. For a position like that you'd ideally want a model citizen with a history of strong moral values and Kavboy the Boofer does not make the grade.
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)1 Kobe acknowledged being wrong
2 Kavanaugh lied under oath.
4 Kavenaugh was given a lifetime job.
Fullduplexxx
(7,852 posts)This is the kind of crap magats say about president failure
Atticus
(15,124 posts)obamanut2012
(26,064 posts)Calculating
(2,955 posts)As people say, "winning fixes everything in our world"
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And we often allow our celebrities a butt-load of latitude for transgressions against others. Each show about the vapid being celebrities illustrates us as such a little more and a little more.
I cannot however, attest that a thing may or may not be unforgivable unless I myself am the victim and from that, utilize my own free will and choose to allow or deny forgiveness.
Polybius
(15,373 posts)He said something like he thought the sexual encounter was consensual. Assuming he was telling the truth, how could one person thing it was consensual? Was she drunk and he took advantage of her? What did his accuser say? It's been so long I've forgotten.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)But as things progressed she said NO, and Kobe didn't stop. Basically she withdrew the earlier consent.
Polybius
(15,373 posts)When a woman (or man) says no it always means no, even if it's been going on for some time.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)anything by the other person beyond that becomes rape. The main issue with the case was the evidence backing her sside of the situation became shakier and shakier as the trial progressed.
stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)ploppy
(2,162 posts)I never thought I would see support for a rapist at DU. How sad.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)If you are looking for perfect people who have never wronged anyone, you're going to have a very lonely existence.
ploppy
(2,162 posts)and I am not perfect. I don't like rapists. Even if they can run fast and throw balls through hoops.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Certain things like rape/murder kinda cross the line though. Plenty of people make mistakes (I have myself). Rape is a bit beyond a 'mistake', as it leaves a victim behind with severe trauma and emotional problems in many cases.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)tenderfoot
(8,425 posts)Don't hurt yourself now.
LeftInTX
(25,224 posts)RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Was wiped clean from everyone's slate.
Bettie
(16,086 posts)and that means all is forgiven pretty easily.
He never really had any consequence beyond paying a sum of money, which he had plenty of, so it was more of an inconvenience to him than anything else.
The woman dropped the charges because of death threats and her entire sexual history being dragged out for everyone to see.
People ask "why don't women report rapes?". Well, because once you accuse a man of rape, you are the suspect and he's the "good man" or "good boy" whose life you're trying to ruin.
It appears that he made some changes in his life and his outlook on women after that, he did a lot of good in the world. That is a good thing.
I don't think forgiveness is impossible, but forgetting what happened is impossible for victims.
So, no, this shouldn't be the only thing that he's remembered for, but it shouldn't be treated as if it never happened either.
DFW
(54,335 posts)I had to look him up, too.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)is this. Brett started assaulting women when he was a teenager and continued the assaults throughout his college years and later in law school. Kobe was involved in ONE incident.
When I first heard this story about Kobe, I felt two things. I was extremely pissed at Kobe for being so stupid. What black man would be dumb enough to get in a situation like that with a random white woman. DUMB. DUMB. DUMB. He had achieved so much. He was brilliant and talented and popular and yet he was willing to throw it away on someone who wasn't even in his social class. Jesus. The rage I felt was palpable.
Did I believe he raped her. NO. Absolutely not. Did I believe I was watching a scene from In the Heat of the Night? Yes. To me, she represented every white woman who had ever falsely accused a black man of rape. She was every white woman who ever caused a black man to die swinging from a tree. I hated her but my rage was reserved for Kobe and the people around him who should've protected him.
i was also terrified for every black man in America. I was especially terrified for black men who were acquiring power through their celebrity and wealth. I think Kobe Bryant was a wake up call. Being a black man in America is different from being a white man in America. We have a Russian agent, a traitor, a thug, a mobster, rapist, a pedophile in the White House and white people call him president. And now there's this thread designed to tarnish Kobe's legacy but not one thread here about #TraitorTrump being a Russian agent. Not one thread here, where he's referred to as #TraitorTrump instead of president, king, monarch. So please, spare me your outrage about Kobe.
Ms. Toad
(34,059 posts)Kobe Bryant made some level of acknowledgement/apology and just died and Brett Kavanaugh was running a smear campaign against his victim in order to obtain a seat on the highest court in the country.
As a rape survivor, I don't necessarily think that rapists need to be locked away from society and ostracized for the rest of their lives. Some are capable of growth and redemption. Kavanaugh clearly had not moved beyond frat boy rape mentality. I don't know whether Bryant had or not.
That said - this thread is really making me angry with all of the "lying slut she deserved it comments." No one is literally saying that - but that is what is meant when they suggest - for example - that there was semen from someone else on her panties or in her vagina, wink-wink.
Trashing women who disclose they have beeen raped is beyond te pale. It is possible to suggest that Bryant's situation is different without trashing his victim.
tulipsandroses
(5,122 posts)As far as forgiveness and redemption.
If you are talking about how the victim feels about the perpetrator - That is for the victim to decide.
As far as society, I disagree that if someone commits sexual assault, they should never be forgiven and cannot be redeemed. That should always be a case by case basis. Research has shown that many men, particularly young men still don't understand the difference between consent and sexual interest. The answer to that, is education and rehabilitation.
Bluesaph
(703 posts)I dont get how a strong man like Kobe can attempt to rape someone. Was he not able to actually rape? Did he stop mid rape?
I lean toward believing the accusers except in instances like this. I dont get like something like attempted rape can go down.
OneBro
(1,159 posts)You seem pretty goddamned sure of what happened, so I'm guessing you are a witness who was prepared to testify as to whether Kobe's accuser was a rape victim or more like, say, Carolyn Bryant. Maybe you're one of the "I believe women!" heroes incapable of the critical thinking necessary to objectively protect victims of rape while protecting victim of false allegations of rape. According to similar heroes, Demario Jackson should have gone immediately to jail after Corinne Olympios sorta kinda accused him of rape after a set member convinced Olympios that Olympios was a victim of rape. But for the video of the incident, Jackson would be in jail, likely for decades after some outraged judge read him the riot act.
Yes, it's possible that Bryant is a rapist, and yes, dear gawd or lawd say it ain't so, his accuser might have made a false accusation in the hopes of a multi-million payoff. Possible. Kobe said the sex was consensual, she said it was not. Only THEY know.
Kavenaugh lacked credibility from beginning to end. He denied that the incident occurred, presented a calendar that ultimately contradicted his own sworn testimony, lied about drinking as a minor during the period at issue, repeatedly lied about sexual references in his year book such as the meaning of the "Devil's Triangle" and "boofing," then lied about . . . ah hell. If you seriously give a damn, go read one of the many articles: Here's one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/10/02/all-of-brett-kavanaughs-lies-distortions-and-absurdities/
What I don't get is why people feel compelled to jump in either corner or grab a protest sign screaming "I believe!," therefore what I believe is reality. Even as more and more men are exonerated after spending decades in jail for rapes they didn't commit, America has yet to learn. From the Scottsboro Boys to the Central Park Five, America clearly hasn't learned a damned thing from the past.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I tend to be from the "believe the woman until evidence shows otherwise" camp. I don't want to see a rapist walk free, but I also don't want to be part of convicting an innocent person and taking years of freedom from that person.
The thing about what happened in a situation where there were only two people present is that it all comes down to evidence and the credibility of the two people. Almost anything can be used to impeach the credibility of one or both. That is why rape allegations when there were only two people present are so hard for juries, the difficulty isn't that there are a lot of the other sex haters on the jury, it is that he said, she said without solid evidence supporting one leaves jurors stranded.
There ARE false rape allegations made annually, although I believe there are infinitely more cases where someone was raped and need to be believed as evidence and the trials play out.
People's perception of a sexual encounter could also be different. Some people like rough sex with rough physical stuff happening, other people don't like that crap at all.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Kavanaugh and his protectors sought to quash evidence, Kobe's legal team dealt with the evidence.
In the end the woman that accused Kobe had a sizeable credibility problem that raised questions as to whether the sex that Kobe had with her was consensual instead of rape. She had the semen of two other men inside her in the sample that was collected from her vagina after she made the claim of rape.
As a man I would hope to be able to prove my innocence if I am innocent of a serious crime. In cases like Kobe's where there were no other people present, the credibility of the two people becomes a key element at trial. Kobe was a pig, but there were questions in the end as to whether he was a rapist.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)carpetbagger
(4,391 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)ecstatic
(32,679 posts)been quenched.