The DNC had a choice: give Dolan a pulpit, or another nail in his self-made cross.

[msanthrope]

I think having Cardinal Dolan at the DNC sucked. How did it happen?

Well, Dolan was invited to speak at the RNC. And then he offered to speak at the DNC to be "fair." Because after all his speeches were to be "pastoral not political." Now we all know that's bullshit but the Obama campaign can't say it's bullshit 60 days before election.

So what was the DNC supposed to do? Get into a pissing match with a Catholic Cardinal 60 days before an election?

Were they supposed to let Dolan run around screaming that Religious Liberty is at jeopardy in this country like he's been doing on the contraceptive issue? Hand him some more wood?

Dolan tried to bait our president into a culture confrontation. Look what happened with the issue of a god in the DNC platform....imagine the screaming over Dolan being denied entry. Dolan tried to be Joe the Plumber this time. It failed.

No right thinking Democrat likes Dolan at the DNC. But there's a reason why no major gay rights organization is openly criticizing the president right now. It's 60 days before an election.

[Fumesucker]

1. Well, now we know Dolan will be quiet and stop his complaining about infringing on religious liberty

Right?

[jsr]

5. He will also drop his lawsuit against the Obama administration

regarding contraception in employee health plans.

[msanthrope]

8. Of course he won't...but he took away a made-for-Fox News scandal

Last edited Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)

that would appealed to low information voters in the states of Pennsylvania Florida Ohio and New York.

politics is a shit sandwich. you try to take the smallest bite.

[hifiguy]

26. +1

Why give the reichwing assholes another phony "scandal" to whinge about?

[Progressive dog]

45. Polls have Obama up by 30 in NY

I agree with you about the other states though, and probably others. It is too bad that the DNC had to allow this person to "pray" in order to avoid further harm to Democrats' election chances.

[msanthrope]

58. NYC is the Ny Post, Fox News, Bill O'Lielly....no need to stir that pot. nt

[calimary]

93. DAYUM, msanthrope - that's a GREAT one!

politics is a shit sandwich. you try to take the smallest bite.

DAYUM!

[msanthrope]

118. I never forgot my Kubrick--see at 1:03.

[msanthrope]

6. Of course he won't...but now he can't complain Obama personalized

the conflict and is anti-Catholic. No headlines about being dissed and insulted by the 'muslin' president.

Sometimes politics is a shit sandwich. You try to take the smallest bite.

[Bluenorthwest]

83. Sure he can, they already are. Obama left the arena prior to the prayer they say, big insult

to Catholics, this is already being said. The theory that if we do X, they can't say Y is hindered by the fact that they will say anything they want, anytime, truth be damned.
And you know, Joe Biden is a Catholic. So any accusations of being anti Catholic would be weak sauce indeed.

[powergirl]

2. It took away an argument from the Repubs

and that crazy Donaho dude. The Repubs were more upset about this than we were. I like that Sister Simone was given an actual speaking position and she was awesome!

[msanthrope]

20. You are right--the anti-choicers were up in arms....nt

[SidDithers]

3. DU rec...nt

Sid

[JaneyVee]

4. It was strange because we are a big tent party, this wasn't the RNC where

everyone believes in the same messiah. We have Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's, in the audience & this guy is talking about Jesus. Not to mention the whole pedophile thing. OTOH Lets not do anything to fuck up re-election.

[seabeyond]

7. not to mention the repeated, out loud, in your face freedom to marry and women take care

of their own bodies.... message thru out the convention.

there was no hesitation or weak in the message.

[piratefish08]

9. he can hang tough against world leaders but got strongarmed by a priest?

[Safetykitten]

12. Yes, the paradox of the mighty Presidency and the "oh dear, we can't do THAT!"

I would offer that if he was turned down,it would of looked better, but again, "danger Will Robinson" moments that portend things to come.

[msanthrope]

18. Yep--there are some things Obama cannot do if he wants reelection. Ask yourself something.....

Does this President need another Reverend Wright-style bullshit scandal??? Or does he need to get his message out?

Part of running a good campaign is side stepping the traps your enemy tries to set for you....like remember last week when he was asked about the chair and Clint?

[GoneOffShore]

42. Very good points and totally lost on those who don't "get" politics.

Sometimes you just have to see where the quicksand is and tiptoe around it.

And I'm making another donation today.

[Le Taz Hot]

74. You know what? We "get" politics

just fine and I've been around elections since about 1968. What Obama did was sell out to hate groups. Again. I swear to goddess the blind partisans around here would appease slave owners if it was still the law of the land -- just to get their guy elected.

[msanthrope]

79. You really think I would back slavery? nt

[Le Taz Hot]

85. I don't know about "you,"

my beef is with the blind partisans because in partisan world the ends justifies the means and if that means throwing whole segments of the population under the bus, then so be it. It's justified and rationalized and very politely explained away -- all in the name of electing the person with the correct letter next to his name.

My civil rights convictions are absolute and unwavering and I will speak out every time I see those convictions violated as was the case with the DNC allowing this hate priest to speak.

[GoneOffShore]

91. I've been around the same amount of time as you have.

Remember what was said up-thread? Politics is a shit sandwich and the idea is to take the smallest bite possible.

Don't come at me with false equivalences. There was no appeasement in having Dildo Dolan speak but a judicious political maneuver.

And isn't Obama your guy as well? Or did you forget about his ending DADT and support for marriage equality? Two giant steps forward and one little shuffle back. But I guess that doesn't count. All that counts is outrage.

As I said, my preference would be not to have ANY prayers or reference to 'God' at the DNC or in any publicly funded sphere - but THAT is NOT going to happen in my lifetime.

[Le Taz Hot]

94. There are certain things that cannot be

compromised away and civil rights is one of them. One day without my GBLT brothers and sisters not being able to marry who they want and having other equal protections under the law is one day too many. Giving some hate priest the podium at the DNC of all things, announces to the world that the Democrats accept bigotry. And remember, his "prayer" didn't only take a shot at the GBLT community, it took a shot at women. Out of ALL the priests in the entire United States, they couldn't find one normal one? They had to go with this guy? Why? The answer is appeasement. Civil Rights is an absolute right. There can be no compromise.

[GoneOffShore]

103. In principle I agree. But we have to have control before that happens.

And how do propose we do that?

We're not going to agree.

So you have a nice day and continue to sputter. I'm going to work on GOTV here in Pennsyltucky.

[Le Taz Hot]

107. Speaking out for Civil Rights is "sputter."

It's so nice when people just put it out there so there's no doubt.

[randome]

109. The DNC DID speak out for civil rights.

What you want is to shut up Dolan. Can't say I blame you, either, but I don't see it as a big deal. He's such a little man who dresses funny.

[Le Taz Hot]

111. I was referring to

my speaking out. And I don't want to shut up Dolan, he can spew whatever bile he chooses. I just don't think inviting him to the podium for the sake of appeasing the 6 votes the Democrats may have gained was worth alienating millions.

[randome]

113. Got it. My misinterpretation.

And you have a point, no doubt about it. I think we both would rather Dolan had not been there. But the DNC was a success in a lot of other ways so I'm not that concerned about it, that's all.

[GoneOffShore]

114. Oh, I'm just so hurt by that (sarcasm).

You know nothing about me or what I believe.

Obvious that you don't like how politics is done. looks like you don't believe in compromise or incremental change.

Would you negate what has been accomplished because Dolan spoke?

Buh-bye.

[msanthrope]

15. He didn't get strongarmed--he stepped over a steaming pile of shit.

Having Dolan speak is disgusting and distasteful.

Handing the right wing a scandal at the level of Reverend Wright would be disastrous.

So Dolan spoke--and the peevish fuck knew he was not preaching to the choir.

[vanlassie]

10. And the DNC were the adults in the room, again.

I would never have followed this issue normally, but appreciate the OPs background info which shows the DEMS once again showing good judgement when faced with the ... what was that... Shit sandwich.

[NCTraveler]

11. C&P From My Response To You In Another Thread

"Have a pissing match with a Catholic Cardinal 60 days before an election? "

No. They should have filled the spot with someone else. Poor little DNC.

"You know that Dolan was asked to speak at the RNC. When he accepted he stated that he wanted to speak at the DNC too to be "fair."

He gets to decide where he speaks. That is very weak. He wanted to be fair so the DNC had to let him. F that.

"We know that that's bullshit though.... dolan wasn't interested in being fair. he was interested in pushing his martyrdom.... "

And that is exactly what he was allowed to do. In the face of some of the best democratic supporters. LGBT and women.

Dolan was a disaster to end what was a great week.

[msanthrope]

16. Dolan was a non-entity. He was neutralized. No one watched.

Which Catholic leader was supposed to fill in for Dolan, knowing that Dolan had already said that he wanted to speak?

Yeah--Dolan got to speak, but he didn't get what he WANTED....which was a Rev. Wright-sized scandal that he could exploit into his 'religious liberty' meme.

There's a reason no major gay or women's groups is criticizing the President for this--we aren't going to hand the right wing a culture confrontation.

[NCTraveler]

22. Neutralized? Really?

He got exactly what he wanted. A platform was given to him.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-cardinal-timothy-dolan-rnc-dnc-20120907,0,7241131.story

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/cardinal-timothy-dolan-gives-pro-life-prayer-at-dnc/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/07/cardinal-timothy-dolan-dnc_n_1864251.html

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/07/cardinal-dolan-uses-dnc-closing-prayer-to-attack-lgbt-community/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/6/picket-video-and-transcript-dolan-brings-pro-life-/

http://www.catholicnewsherald.com/42-news/rokstories/2296-cardinal-dolan-to-deliver-closing-prayer-at-dnc

http://townhall.com/video/cardinal-dolan-delivers-pro-life-benediction-at-dnc

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/cardinal-dolan-uses-dnc-closing-prayer-attac

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/03/first-on-cnn-whos-delivering-prayers-at-the-dnc/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/30/archdiocese-cardinal-dolan-prayers-for-both-rnc-and-dnc-pastoral-not-political/

[msanthrope]

23. No--he didn't get what he WANTED. What he WANTED was the ability to start a scandal and push the

meme of 'religious liberty' through his surrogates. He wanted to get a 'no' so that he could have exploited that.

What he wanted was the ability to personalize the contraceptive debate.

He got to speak, but he didn't get what he WANTED.

And he pissed off his own anti-choicers.

[NCTraveler]

49. He was welcomed into the lions den and spoke about life.

Please show me an anti-choicer who was pissed off. They loved every word he said at the DNC. You really couldn't twist and turn any more.

[msanthrope]

52. Go read freeperville. They aren't pleased about Dolan at the DNC and the Al Smith Dinner, which

they see as capitulation.

[NCTraveler]

53. Post a link of them talking directly about Dolan and how upset they are.

Why you think I would wade through that shit is beyond me.

[msanthrope]

55. Why would I link from freeperville? The anti-gay rhetoric is offensive, and would

be rightly alerted on....

Google is your friend, or, you don't have to believe me, and we can agree to disagree. Your choice.

On edit--here's a link to outrage that will avoid the stews...

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/06/why-is-cardinal-dolan-associating-with-democrats/

[NCTraveler]

59. Your link goes completely against what you are saying. nt.

[msanthrope]

61. Um, no---the rightwing was pissed. The Daily Caller is rightwing. And take a look at the comments-

check out the second one--"silent scream" is an anti-choice whistle.

[LanternWaste]

104. Then why so many people aggressively rationalizing, justifying and tolerating his attendance?

"Dolan was a non-entity."
Then why so many people aggressively rationalizing, justifying and tolerating his attendance?


"e aren't going to hand the right wing a culture confrontation."
We don't have to-- they make up stuff regardless of whether it's truthful or not. You think there won't be any other ready-made culture confrontations in the next two months? Or that the laack of this one confrontation will tip the balance one way or the other.

Really, really good dancing going on with this stuff... but no music is playing.

[bullwinkle428]

13. Deval Patrick's speech about Democrats getting a backbone sounded good, but

I guess he forgot to include the "60-day" rule in there.

[msanthrope]

17. There's getting a backbone, and there's avoiding the trap your enemy tried to lay for you.

And yeah--we've got 60 days to lock this fucker down. I'm doing voter registration this weekend. What are you doing?

[bullwinkle428]

67. Funny that you ask - living in a swing state and all, I have plans to

help my local county Democrats with the GOTV effort, as I've been doing going back to the 2006 election cycle.

[LanternWaste]

105. There's also the courage of one's own conviction versus political expediency

There's also the courage of one's own conviction versus political expediency.

I imagine there's no need to ask far too many people which one is more important to them. (and yes-- I'd lose an election before selling out my beliefs, although I realize you may not see it quite that starkly)

[treestar]

14. I wish we could do without the prayers

But you're right, it would create a big media storm about abandoning God. I can understand the DNC being afraid of that.

And the prayer does not affect the platform. If one is not religious the prayer is meaningless anyway.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/pm-cancels-christian-lobby-visit-20120906-25hey.html

The Australian PM was able to put her foot down on a person like this - but in this country, what President could do such a thing without the M$M making it a major thing and causing a circus?

[mysuzuki2]

19. "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?"

[Le Taz Hot]

75. Careful. That one ended badly.

For both parties.

One of my favorites from Diderot:

“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

[AngryOldDem]

21. Could it be because of the Al Smith Dinner?

A lot of Catholics are pissed off that Obama has been invited to speak, even though it's tradition for the president to appear at the dinner.

Is this an olive branch, perhaps?

[JVS]

24. Dolan has been a thorn in the side of the administration. Rewarding him was stupid.

[msanthrope]

27. Rewarding him would have been allowing him to claim, through his Fox News

and Repukes surrogates, that a 'muslin' President rejected the highest-ranking Catholic in America. Because we need a Rev. Wright/religious scandal, right?

No...Dolan got to speak to people leaving for the afterparty, and doesn't get to complain...and, he managed to piss off his own anti-choicers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Jesus Said

Jesus said "I send you out as sheep among wolves. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

Many Catholics are conflicted. There are a higher percentage of pro choice and pro marriage equality Catholics than any other main stream Christian group. They also still respect their hierarchy.

If he helps us get a few undecided Catholics it's wort rh it.

[msanthrope]

28. I live in Pennsylvania. No need to piss off the Catholic block here that want to

vote Democrat, and the ones leaning to it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Used To Go To Catholic Church With My GF

They are always emphasizing the social gospel. I like that.

And many Cathloics I know ignore the rest of the stuff...

Sometimes politics is about uniting and sometimes it's about dividing in this instance I am in favor of the former.

[JoePhilly]

29. He wanted to claim that Obama took away his first amendment right because Obama hates Catholics.

That was his true goal.

[msanthrope]

31. Yep....look what the 'muslin' President did to the highest-ranking Catholic in America. nt

[JoePhilly]

43. The "Nuns on the Bus" got a much better time slot, and the Daily Caller was PISSED that Dolan

gave that invocation.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/06/why-is-cardinal-dolan-associating-with-democrats/

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Seems that our Catholic Vice President might have been able to address that a bit...

Sotomayor, Catholic, appointed by Obama. A hard crowd to please, these Catholics, and odd that all of that other evidence was rejected but you think that this will stop them in their tracks. 'Sure he picked one as running mate and appointed another to the highest court for life, but if he does not invite our Cardinal, we'll say he's anti Catholic'. Your defense of this makes Catholics look like petulant children.

[liberalmuse]

30. "No Thanks" would have sufficed.

Having this pompous ass uttering empty words to an invisible being on our stage was not worth hurting the real human beings within the LGBT community.

[msanthrope]

35. And 'no thanks' would have given the repukes exactly the headlines they needed. As a woman, I'm

offended by Dolan, but I blame Dolan for that.

Sometimes, we put offense aside to work for the long goal.

[randome]

38. He's already lost that battle and everyone knows it.

Gay rights are in the mainstream now. There is no going back.

[The Second Stone]

32. Dolan made an ass of himself. He was invited to make a prayer

and made a political speech while pretending it was a prayer. He asked to make a prayer, not a political speech. It makes him look like a party crasher at best, and a lying weasel. He should have been turned down with "Cardinal Dolan, a vocal opponent of the President and the Democratic Party has invited himself to the convention. Only supporters of the President and party platform are being invited. His insistence is rude and presumptuous."

[msanthrope]

37. Personally, I like the fact that he made a public ass of himself. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

63. Besides...

Most people (viewers) tuned out when Obama left the stage. It was late, and it was over. Many people who may have stayed up to watch the president either turned the channel or went to bed.

I watched all 3 nights...late. I wouldn't have known about Dolan's presence at all if I hadn't read about it here.

[msanthrope]

64. The networks all tuned to pundits and local news, the cable channels to pundits. The Nun on the Bus

got a better slot.

[LeftyMom]

33. "Thanks, but we already invited somebody else. We'll keep you in mind next time."

Nobody in the laity gives a flying fuck at a rolling donut that some Cardinal got snubbed.

[msanthrope]

36. The laity doesn't own the right-wing media machine. nt

[LeftyMom]

41. That would have been the easiest problem in the world to avoid.

Either invite another prominent Catholic who isn't such a douche or a more prominent religious person. Then there's nothing to criticize, and anybody who tries looks petty. Sure, Bill O'Reilly's of the world will still complain, but he'd complain no matter what.

[randome]

44. They look petty either way.

And we look gracious and above such nonsense. (Not always true, of course. After all, this is politics.)

[NCTraveler]

48. "And we look gracious and above such nonsense."

There is nothing gracious about giving a sexist homophobe a platform.

[randome]

56. Except that eventually they will lose such prejudices.

They don't have any choice. Their battle against LGBT rights is already lost. We WILL get to the point where the church concedes on this as they have for other issues forced down their angry, hate-filled throats.

[Are_grits_groceries]

39. Alrighty then.

After this election, I want to HEAR and SEE President Obama stand up to the anti-gay and anti-woman rhetoric that spews from Dolan's mouth and its supporters.

After being TOLD we have to support Obama, I don't want one more shit sandwich handed out after this election because of some compromise that President Obama can get all warm and happy about.

It is time to draw a trench eleventy billion miles deep that you do not cross without thinking long and hard about fucking with people's rights.

It is past time to stop the shameful pandering!

[msanthrope]

54. He already did---

These speak louder than an old man, praying to someone who isn't there:

Statement by the President on Certification of Repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Today, we have taken the final major step toward ending the discriminatory ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ law that undermines our military readiness and violates American principles of fairness and equality. In accordance with the legislation that I signed into law last December, I have certified and notified Congress that the requirements for repeal have been met. ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ will end, once and for all, in 60 days—on September 20, 2011.

As Commander in Chief, I have always been confident that our dedicated men and women in uniform would transition to a new policy in an orderly manner that preserves unit cohesion, recruitment, retention and military effectiveness. Today’s action follows extensive training of our military personnel and certification by Secretary Panetta and Admiral Mullen that our military is ready for repeal. As of September 20th, service members will no longer be forced to hide who they are in order to serve our country. Our military will no longer be deprived of the talents and skills of patriotic Americans just because they happen to be gay or lesbian.

I want to commend our civilian and military leadership for moving forward in the careful and deliberate manner that this change requires, especially with our nation at war. I want to thank all our men and women in uniform, including those who are gay or lesbian, for their professionalism and patriotism during this transition. Every American can be proud that our extraordinary troops and their families, like earlier generations that have adapted to other changes, will only grow stronger and remain the best fighting force in the world and a reflection of the values of justice and equality that the define us as Americans.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/07/22/statement-president-certification-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell

Remarks of President Barack Obama on the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act bill signing:

It is fitting that with the very first bill I sign – the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act – we are upholding one of this nation’s first principles: that we are all created equal and each deserve a chance to pursue our own version of happiness.

It is also fitting that we are joined today by the woman after whom this bill is named – someone Michelle and I have had the privilege of getting to know for ourselves. Lilly Ledbetter didn’t set out to be a trailblazer or a household name. She was just a good hard worker who did her job – and did it well – for nearly two decades before discovering that for years, she was paid less than her male colleagues for the very same work. Over the course of her career, she lost more than $200,000 in salary, and even more in pension and Social Security benefits – losses she still feels today.

Now, Lilly could have accepted her lot and moved on. She could have decided that it wasn’t worth the hassle and harassment that would inevitably come with speaking up for what she deserved. But instead, she decided that there was a principle at stake, something worth fighting for. So she set out on a journey that would take more than ten years, take her all the way to the Supreme Court, and lead to this bill which will help others get the justice she was denied.

Because while this bill bears her name, Lilly knows this story isn’t just about her. It’s the story of women across this country still earning just 78 cents for every dollar men earn – women of color even less – which means that today, in the year 2009, countless women are still losing thousands of dollars in salary, income and retirement savings over the course of a lifetime.

But equal pay is by no means just a women’s issue – it’s a family issue. It’s about parents who find themselves with less money for tuition or child care; couples who wind up with less to retire on; households where, when one breadwinner is paid less than she deserves, that’s the difference between affording the mortgage – or not; between keeping the heat on, or paying the doctor’s bills – or not. And in this economy, when so many folks are already working harder for less and struggling to get by, the last thing they can afford is losing part of each month’s paycheck to simple discrimination.

So in signing this bill today, I intend to send a clear message: That making our economy work means making sure it works for everyone. That there are no second class citizens in our workplaces, and that it’s not just unfair and illegal – but bad for business – to pay someone less because of their gender, age, race, ethnicity, religion or disability. And that justice isn’t about some abstract legal theory, or footnote in a casebook – it’s about how our laws affect the daily realities of people’s lives: their ability to make a living and care for their families and achieve their goals.

Ultimately, though, equal pay isn’t just an economic issue for millions of Americans and their families, it’s a question of who we are – and whether we’re truly living up to our fundamental ideals. Whether we’ll do our part, as generations before us, to ensure those words put to paper more than 200 years ago really mean something – to breathe new life into them with the more enlightened understandings of our time.

That is what Lilly Ledbetter challenged us to do. And today, I sign this bill not just in her honor, but in honor of those who came before her. Women like my grandmother who worked in a bank all her life, and even after she hit that glass ceiling, kept getting up and giving her best every day, without complaint, because she wanted something better for me and my sister.

And I sign this bill for my daughters, and all those who will come after us, because I want them to grow up in a nation that values their contributions, where there are no limits to their dreams and they have opportunities their mothers and grandmothers never could have imagined.

In the end, that’s why Lilly stayed the course. She knew it was too late for her – that this bill wouldn’t undo the years of injustice she faced or restore the earnings she was denied. But this grandmother from Alabama kept on fighting, because she was thinking about the next generation. It’s what we’ve always done in America – set our sights high for ourselves, but even higher for our children and grandchildren.

Now it’s up to us to continue this work. This bill is an important step – a simple fix to ensure fundamental fairness to American workers – and I want to thank this remarkable and bi-partisan group of legislators who worked so hard to get it passed. And this is only the beginning. I know that if we stay focused, as Lilly did – and keep standing for what’s right, as Lilly did – we will close that pay gap and ensure that our daughters have the same rights, the same chances, and the same freedom to pursue their dreams as our sons.

Thank you.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/RemarksofPresidentBarackObamaontheLillyLedbetterFairPayRestorationActBillSigning/

FYI--jury--no copyright issue as these are public releases....

[GoneOffShore]

95. In all the outrage this is forgotten.

What a shame.

[Are_grits_groceries]

120. That was yesterday's news.

Does he deserve credit? Yes. Do those acts absolve him from future issues? No!

You don't get it. The fight for rights is never over. Women's rights are more than equal pay. Right now the RW is trying to use abortion and contraceptives to control other people. That will be on the table for a long time.

LGBT issues go way beyond DADT.

When new issues come up, I want Obama to LEAD the way in demanding equality. He can't rest on his past actions as an excuse to do nothing or compromise.

With this election on the table, women and LGBT supporters had to literally listen to a bigoted red-assed man slyly pray against them. We are told to eat that shit as a Happy Meal.' You try to downplay his position. It would be nice if he meant little. However, Dolan is one of the most regressive and conservative reps of Catholicism. He does mean something to people unfortunately.

We had to start eating this shit with Rick Warren at the Inauguration. Symbols and framing matter. This is one area where the administration has been way behind the curve. They better learn.

[The Link]

40. Pandering to the bigot vote is always a choice.

I wish they would have made the right one.

[Erose999]

46. Fak u Dolan

[GoneOffShore]

47. You're doing a great job of rebutting the criticisms.

I would have preferred that there were no opening or closing prayers and that the "God" stuff was left out of the platform. But it's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Impossible to please everyone all the time.

And we've come a very long way since the 90's.

[msanthrope]

57. My preference, too. But not going to happen any convention soon.....

[Whisp]

50. Thanks for explaining this.

I appreciate your astuteness in these matters. My initial reaction to Dolan speaking was a WTF! as well, but as you say the refusal would have just played into his filthy dirty hands.

[patrice]

51. How many supporting references to LGBTQ rights were made during this convention & by whom? nt

[msanthrope]

60. I think it would be easier to list speakers who didn't...but here's a video I thought was great:

[patrice]

62. Trust is a hard thing to cultivate. I am supporting a local liberal Catholic candidate; she will NOT

stand short on hearing from me about the necessity for respect for our LGBTQ sisters and brothers.

I and others would have NO opportunity to be heard on that matter if the party ran her off in the first place.

To me the purest form of strength is in engagement, NOT in exclusion.

[msanthrope]

65. We can be purists in a very small room (see, the Green Party) or we can

try to engage, include, inculcate....

I saw an old man, speaking to people going to an afterparty. Unable to stop the tide. Powerless.

[randome]

66. 'Powerless' is exactly right.

The more power we ascribe to the bigots, the more power they hold over us.

[patrice]

70. With honesty and respect, we can help one another, without agreeing on the more personal

differences and there's a great crazy-assed miracle in that called America.

Personally, I have always been in love with this idea of putting different things together; it's at least more interesting, if not outright more authentically/organically motivating.

[randome]

71. And if things don't fit right...

...you can always passive-aggressively be nice to your enemies, taking them down a notch!

[patrice]

76. Yep. Corrective responses are better than vindictive ones, because they give everyone more

learning options, both the "teacher" and the "learner". What is needed is diligent clarity, and creative and courageous maintenance of the relationship(s).

And sometimes being nice is just being nice. And everyone gets fed up, more or less temporarily, even liberals.

Not all of us require conformity in order to enjoy one another, though, of course there are lines determined by each individual person and everyone has a right to make their own decisions about those lines, what to do, what to un-do, and what to re-do.

[patrice]

68. There IS a tide and it will NOT be denied except by those who will not yeild to others what

they demand for themselves.

And I'm proud to ask that of anyone not just Catholics or LGBTQ, but also of any and all "race" groups who assume privileges derived from exclusion.

That's the difference between us and them: Human Rights.

[LaydeeBug]

69. I honestly think they're giving him enough rope. nt

[Jack Sprat]

72. Why couldn't we have chosen

Pastor Weldon Graddy or another one who favors our political outlook? It's silly to believe we needed to invite the same one as the repubs had. A pastor is a pastor.

[Le Taz Hot]

73. Oh, by all means, let's let the bigots

control the narrative 'cause maybe someday they'll like us, they'll really really like us.

Fuck that shit. The DNC had a choice and they threw LGBT Americans and their supporters under the bus. Again.

[SlimJimmy]

77. Are you going to sit out the election or vote for Romney because of this?

The President made the right choice here. Let the old man talk now, or let the old man make a huge deal of not being allowed to talk, later.

[Le Taz Hot]

78. Well, I've not sat out an election

since 1974 so, no, not likely. And in that I've never voted Republican for president that's not likely either.

The president caved in to the bigots -- as he always has. You blind partisans can rationalize it all you want but it comes down to either having a spine and standing up for what it right or cowtowing to bigots. Ask yourselves, blind partisans, why is it that Obama is not getting the support in 2012 that he had in 2008? It's not all the Republicans' fault. You think that maybe, possibly he's thrown too many base groups under the bus?

[SlimJimmy]

97. I agree with your sentiment. I would never call myself a blind partisan. In fact, I'm really more

of a realist. And trust me, I have some of the wounds from posting here to prove it. But, I'd rather tell the truth than try to sugar coat it. For example, I think the jobs report today was horrible. 97,000 net jobs added and 400,000 drop out of the looking for jobs category. The drop in the unemployment rate might *look* good, but it's a mirage. Put those 400,000 back in the calculus and we're closer to 8.5% unemployment. I noticed that's not the headline today. But it *is* the truth.

The President won't lose much base support over this prayer issue. Plus, he avoided a self inflicted wound with the independents. It may not make us feel better about his support for LGBT issues, but it was a smart political move.

[Le Taz Hot]

100. And I don't think civil rights

should be subject to political whims. One either takes a stand or one doesn't and then tries to justify it. Few things in life are black and white but civil rights is one of them.

[SlimJimmy]

112. This was not a matter of civil rights to the President. In this case, it was a political

calculation.

[randome]

81. How are they controlling the narrative?

They have already lost on both contraception and equal rights. And everyone knows it. There is no going back now.

[William769]

87. They lost? And everyone knows it?

Thats news to me, and several other million people I suspect.

You might want to check out State laws before making that kind of statement.

[randome]

88. The momentum is unstoppable.

It's not only Obama and Biden's statements of support. Ever more corporations are supporting LGBT rights now. When big business comes to the realization that they cannot remain bigoted, it's clear that the tide cannot be turned back.

That's not optimism speaking, it's how I see it.

Are we where we need to be yet? Not at all. But it's happening.

[Le Taz Hot]

89. If they "lost"

as you claim, then why is it the Democrats feel they must appease them? That doesn't even make sense.

[randome]

90. Keep your friends close by, your enemies closer.

Or however that phrase goes. We gain nothing by trying to piss off the Catholic vote EXCEPT to make them stronger and more united against us.

The tide has turned and there is no going back. That's what I mean by 'lost'. Obviously there is much work to be done.

[Le Taz Hot]

96. Oh, hockey puck.

That N-dimensional chess thing doesn't work with me.

We've been told time and again that the rank-and-file Catholics regularly go against church doctrine. The only ones left are the staunch homophobic bigots who aren't going to vote for Obama anyway so what exactly were they afraid they were losing if they didn't give him the podium?

You guys can dress it up all you want but I know appeasement when I see it and it doesn't get any more blatant than giving hate priest the podium at the Democratic National Convention.

[randome]

99. I don't think it needs to be N-dimension chess.

But I do think our enemies will forever BE our enemies if we insist on seeing them that way. Perception matters in politics and maybe a few heads can be turned by letting Dolan say a prayer.

I wish he hadn't been there, either. The DNC wasn't perfect but I don't see the point of armchair quarterbacking it, either.

[Le Taz Hot]

101. Sorry, the cost was too high.

He may or may not have gotten 6 more votes out of it but it sure as hell universally pissed off the GBLT community and their supporters. REALLY bad trade off there.

[randome]

108. I guess you'd have to take a poll to know that.

I doubt that it pissed off that many people. But, like you, I see things MY way, and am never as objective as I want to think I am.

But other than here at DU, I haven't heard much community outrage over Dolan. Admittedly, I don't always have my ear to the pulse of society.

[William769]

80. I have the utmost respect for you but on this you are wrong.

Pushing people to the back of the bus or some could even argue throwing under the bus.

It's happened before, it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

[randome]

82. No one was pushed to the back at the DNC I watched.

A losing idiot was given a chance to say a prayer at the end of it. That's all.

[William769]

84. Are you part of the LGBT community?

It was more than just saying a prayer.

Trouncing on someone's fight for equality is never good and giving a major platform to speak from, was beyond the pale.

[randome]

86. My father is. I haven't asked his opinion about this but I have some knowledge of the issues.

One doesn't need to be part of a group to recognize that no one was pushed to the back at the DNC.

I agree Dolan's snipe at the community was atrocious but since he has already lost his arguments, he only shows himself to be powerless.

[Bluenorthwest]

106. He has not already lost his arguments. That's offensive and you should stop saying it.

We don't have rights that you have, because his kind still rules. They still rule because too many of the straights who speak rhetorical support for equality do not in the end stand up to his kind, they invite them to take the stage and share some champers after.
In most of this country, people can and are legally discriminated against in housing and in employment for being LGBT. The Federal government discriminates against all of us in marriage. If we already won, it sure looks a lot like losing.

[randome]

110. My point has been that the momentum cannot be stopped.

The writing is on the wall. It's not enough, I agree, but the tide cannot be turned. The laws that discriminate are falling. Not fast enough, either, but they are.

[msanthrope]

116. And I respect you, greatly. Let me be clear that I am not minimizing the utter disgust

we should all feel at the denial of human rights espoused by Dolan.

I feel that disgust, too, because utter sexism is part and parcel of the power structure that man makes his living in.

But I look at the situation, and I see that saying no--right before an election, right before the Al Smith Dinner, was a chance that this administration could not take.

Why??? Because you know and I know that the rightwing noise machine would have made hay. They are looking for a culture confrontation for this President. They want a Rev. Wright scandal, a Joe the Plumber to rise from the ashes. And Obama can't rise to the bait.

Is this a political calculation? Yes. Is it wrong? YES. Is it the lesser of two evils???? YES.

I said upthread that politics is a shit sandwich. This was a political calculation designed to take a smaller bite.

But make no mistake William....THIS president knows who took that bite for him. If I did not truly believe that Barack Obama knows that he owes the GLBT community for this one, I would not be defending this decision.

And don't think for a second that I don't know whose back this falls on. I won't presume to tell you that you should feel 'good' about this. No--this is not a 'good' thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. They caved to Dolan, God, and the Israel lobby.

Not a good sign of what's to come in the second term.

[Warpy]

102. What little I heard was about social and economic justice

and not the cranking about abortion that we were all bracing ourselves for.

At least he showed some decorum, even if his hierarchy is rotten to the core.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

115. Let him scream. His screaming about contraception backfired...

and any screaming about "religious liberty" would have backfired as well, if the DNC handled it properly (i.e., religious bigotry is not tolerated). The entire convention conveyed inclusion and we saw Dems FINALLY speak out as Dems, but I might have well has been watching the RNC convention while listening to Dolan. He showed no respect for us with his little jabs re: choice and marriage equality -- why is that tolerated? There were too many other non-toxic religious figures to choose from rather than give this asshole a platform.

And who besides right-wing loonies took Joe the Plumber seriously? Anyone who did wasn't voting for Obama/Biden in the first place.

[SomethingFishy]

117. There is nothing that DU will not defend

in it's quest to keep the presidency.

Civil Rights leader John Lewis told this story at the Convention:

.."On that same day, we continued on to Rock Hill, South Carolina, about 25 miles. From here, when my seatmate, Albert Bigelow, and I tried to enter a white waiting room, we were met by an angry mob that beat us and left us lying in a pool of blood. Some police officers came up and asked us whether we wanted to press charges. We said, “No, we come in peace, love and nonviolence.” We said our struggle was not against individuals, but against unjust laws and customs. Our goal was true freedom for every American.

Since then, America has made a lot of progress. We are a different society than we were in 1961. And in 2008, we showed the world the true promise of America when we elected President Barack Obama. A few years ago, a man from Rock Hill, inspired by President Obama’s election, decided to come forward. He came to my office in Washington and said, “I am one of the people who beat you. I want to apologize. Will you forgive me?” I said, “I accept your apology.” He started crying. He gave me a hug. I hugged him back, and we both started crying. This man and I don’t want to go back; we want to move forward."

"Cardinal" Dolan was not a forward move. It wasn't a lateral move. It was a huge fucking step backwards. No one listened to him? HE CLOSED THE CONVENTION! His was the final note of the symphony. Next time maybe the Democrats can find someone with their fucking instrument in tune.

[GeorgeGist]

119. I suppose you're right ...

because the cleric they bumped to make room for Dolan isn't complaining.