Reminder: Germany survived Hitler.

[garybeck]

Hitler was one of the most evil people to walk this planet. He created hatred between groups of people on an inconceivable scale and killed millions. We don't need a lesson on how bad he was.

Today Germany is a free country. Although nothing is 100% effective, they have protections in place to prevent anything like that from happening again in their country. The wall came down. According to Wikipedia, today there are about 200,000 Jews living in Germany. Same-sex marriage is legal in Germany. Today Germany is a leader in renewable energy technology and according a recent study it gets more energy from renewables than fossil fuel.

We will get through this nightmare.

We must keep fighting.

We must never give up no matter how bad it gets.

I keep hearing that Trump is doing permanent damage to our country and we will never recover. I understand the sentiment. But I do not agree. It might take years or decades to undo the damage but we WILL recover.

We will learn lessons from this nightmare. We are learning lessons right now.

Never give up.

This country will some day be better than it was before Trump took office. Someday soon, I hope.

We have been on a progressive path for a while now. Slavery ended. Women got the right to vote. Same-sex marriage is legal nationwide. Cannabis is legal in nearly half of our country. There is still a lot of work to do.

This is a bump in the path. Yes, a HUUUGE bump. bigger than any of us want to endure. better phrased, it is a giant pothole and all the wheels are falling off. but we must persist.

No matter how bad it gets, the only way this damage is permanent, is if WE give up and stop fighting for what is right and good.

Germany survived Hitler.
We will survive Trump.

My intent is not to say "relax everything is fine." My intent is to say we must keep fighting. We must step up our efforts to minimize the damage so we can recover in years, not decades. And we must do everything we can to prevent things from getting as bad they did 80 years ago.

In the end we will have laws to prevent this from happening again.

That's my two cents.

Now let's get back at it.

Peace to you all.


---on edit, i just want to be clear. I am not suggesting that things are going to get as bad as they were during the holocaust, or comparing then to now. I have relatives who survived that nightmare. I am just saying that we will get through this one way or another and no matter how bad it gets we must not give up and we must keep fighting. and some day, hopefully soon, all this hatred and divisiveness and negativity and greed will be put to rest---

[struggle4progress]

1. Now there's an inspiring thought!

[garybeck]

3. i hope you understood my intent.

i'm just saying if Germany survived that photo you posted. we can survive what we are going through now. I"m not saying I want, or expect anything like that to happen. I hope that was obvious.

[struggle4progress]

29. Of course. But consider your arguments carefully

[greatauntoftriplets]

33. There were still buildings like those when I was in East Berlin in the 1970s.

[jls4561]

2. Germany survived Hitler with the help of the US.

Who will help the US survive post-Trump?

[garybeck]

11. well, last i heard

most of the rest of the world hates trump as much as we do, except for putin. Many world leaders and the majority of citizens in many countries have a sincere disdain for him as we do.

i'm not going to suggest that there will be a world war and we would need someone to save us.

at this point i'm not even sure that the military would follow trumps orders.

but my point is not that we should just sit back and let it all happen because it's going to be fine in the end. I hope my post was not perceived that way.

my point is that we can't give up and lose hope or stop fighting, no matter how bad it gets.

peace.

[Hekate]

42. The world is undergoing a wave of authoritarianism in the guise of populism, and Putin is ...

...the Prime Mover, everywhere you look in the West. Britain (Brexit), France, Italy, all the Western democratic states -- it's not just America.

The Chinese, also unabashed authoritarians and no longer followers of Mao, have their own non-democratic agenda across the Pacific, Africa, and South America (which is why I supported the Trans-Pacific Partnership -- it would have helped rein in Chinese aggression).

[appalachiablue]

63. This. We're in very different times esp. with growing anti democratic

forces as you say in Europe, SA, Asia and all over. Plus the vast damage and corruption from 40 years of neoliberalism, and rising terror and destruction from climate crisis.

[Hekate]

71. I really have to ask: what is "neoliberalism" & why is it responsible for the demise of democracy?

Who do you think is a "neoliberal" now and who over the past 40 years has wrought such damage?

I am baffled by the use of this term and in this context, so this is an honest question. I hope you can help me out.

[appalachiablue]

72. The term characterizes economic policies that were begun

Last edited Tue Feb 11, 2020, 07:58 AM - Edit history (6)

in the later 1970s and 1980s in the US, Britain and elsewhere. Libertarian economist Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics were the main brainpower behind the US side of the movement. By the 1970s, support for New Deal policies and Keyesian economics which had been so effective in rebuilding economies after the Depression and through the post-WWII era was beginning to wane--legislation and programs that were centered on regulation of banks, support for labor unions, taxation on the wealthiest and a strong social safety net, all of which helped create the strongest middle class in the world in America. (But largely excluding most blacks, women and minorities).

So the US and Britain started to move away from Keynesian economics to more 'supply side,' free market ideology and policies that advocated a return to growth, aka 'Reaganomics' and 'Thatchernomics.' the aim was to implement laissez faire principles (going back to the 1920s and the 19th c.) and get government out of the way. Neoliberalism, or Libertarianism, practically the same (Austrian School of Economics, von Mises, Ayn Rand 'Objectivism', Kochs libertarians) stressed less government involvement and regulation in business, low taxes, no unions, reduced or removal of the social safety net, privatized education, health care and other government functions, and austerity.

The solution to the premise that government was stifling business and growth was to get it out of the way and everyone and every society will be richer and more prosperous. Policies were adopted by mainstream Republicans and also some Democrats like President Carter with deregulation of the trucking industry and the end of the Glass-Stegall Banking Act by President Clinton. In some ways the new direction was advantageous particularly in the growth experienced in the 1990s but then problems grew and so did opposition. By the time of the 2008 Financial Crisis the effects of taking regulations off banking and the growth of complex, high risk financial products such as MBS, mortgage backed securities were shown to be harmful.

Since 2008 many experts have called for a return to firm government oversight of finance in order to avoid unhealthy monopolies which have grown tremendously in the last several decades, financial shocks and more. A strong public sector and initiatives from business are also needed to preserve and protect the environment from extraction and exploitation. The consequences of lowering protections in favor of instituting free market principles in the last 40 years are clear- the wealthiest have benefitted greatly but many workers face hardships, the increase in income inequality is staggering, the level of poverty in some American places is on a Third World level and the environment is in great danger. Pursuit of growth at any cost can lead to social and economic instability, the rise of anti- democratic demagogues and chaos. And nobody wants that.

These articles, including the one by Joseph Stiglitz frame the issues and concerns with excess laisse faire, free market economics better than I can. Hope this is info. is helpful in some way.

- Opinion: Three decades of neoliberal policies have decimated the middle class, our economy, and our democracy. Progressive capitalism is the economy we need, Stiglitz says,
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/three-decades-of-neoliberal-policies-have-decimated-the-middle-class-our-economy-and-our-democracy-2019-05-13

https://newrepublic.com/article/155970/collapse-neoliberalism

[Dave in VA]

4. Easy to say

75 years after the fact. Germany survived because the allies defeated him. Not because of anything that the Germans did to bring about his end. Millions of lives, billions of dollars. American blood and treasure spent, but yeah, they survived.

Not saying you are wrong, just asking at what cost.

[garybeck]

8. i agree with you

i hope you understand the intent of my post.

i just hear people lately losing hope. losing hope for the future of our country and the world.

I just wanted to point out that no matter how bad it gets, we can and will recover.

it is our job to minimize the damage and prevent another thing like that from happening.

[Dave in VA]

10. garybeck

Don't disagree at all. Hope is what will drive everyone to the polls in November. Keep hope alive!

[unblock]

5. Great, so we might have a better country after millions are slaughtered?

When people fret about America surviving, they aren't really thinking in terms of whether or not there's a nation called America in 50 years, and whether or not it's a better place.

They're worried about what hell might be in store for us in the meanwhile.

Yes, if we descend into an authoritative abyss, eventually we will revolt and win and get to a better place.

But the question at hand is if we can abort that descent and get to that better place without going through that hell first.

[garybeck]

7. agreed. i hope

you understand the intent of my post.

i added something at the bottom to clarify.

i agree with you my friend.

peace

[Adsos Letter]

9. This.

Exactly this.

[garybeck]

13. I guess i failed at portraying the true intent of my post.

I was not saying World War III is coming and we should all just relax because everything is going to be fine when it's over.

I'm sorry if that is how you perceived it.

not my intent, though.

I was just reacting to what I am hearing more and more lately, that people are losing hope and feeling helpless.

my intent was to remind people that no matter how bad it gets we will get through it. I am not comparing our situation to Germany in the 1930s or suggesting that something similar is going to happen.

i'm just saying that we should not give up hope and we must keep fighting, and we can and will right the ship.

i'm sorry if my post was perceived in a different way than it was intended.

peace.

[Quixote1818]

17. That is a worry. Lets hope it doesn't come to that. nt

[dewsgirl]

6. At least Hitler liked dogs, who knows the unthinkable

things Trump will do unchecked.

[unblock]

12. I don't think we want to know the way in which donnie likes dogs...

[dewsgirl]

15. Oh no!😉

[Falcata]

35. Loved dogs and was a vegatarian as well...

[dewsgirl]

36. And supplied each of his troops with, love dolls.

[DinahMoeHum]

14. Yes, unfortunately too many Germans. . .

. . .had to be "deprogrammed" aka "deNazification"

They had to be forced to see, with their own eyes, what their support of Hitler cost everybody else, in terms of their fellow human beings.

The "we didn't know" and "I was only following orders" spiels didn't cut it back then; and they should not cut it now in the aftermath of Trump.

[steve2470]

68. excellent post

We need deTrumpification aka deFauxNewsification NOW !

[greenjar_01]

16. This is by far the worst take I've seen this year

[garybeck]

18. my apologies. i dont think you understood my intent.

[Voltaire2]

19. what was the butcher's bill? 60 million or so?

not exactly comforting.

Also, who exactly are going to star as the 'allies' in this re-run?

[Hekate]

40. That's what I keep asking myself, Voltaire: who is there to be "the Allies," especially who will ...

...play the part of America when America has fallen?

[DFW]

20. Germany only survived Hitler because Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin decided it would

Even then, Stalin kept part of it for himself and his successors to play with for almost 40 years after his death. Without outside intervention, and at no small cost in lives, Hitler's chosen successors would surely still be running Europe.

[empedocles]

27. . . . and hitler screwed u big time with a 2 front war

[Hekate]

39. "u"? DFW is an American

[empedocles]

46. hitler 'screwed uP'. Thank you. Lost that 'p' without noticing it.

[TeamPooka]

21. Germany was split in two and occupied by foreign nations for 50 years

[edhopper]

22. No it didn't

German Jews did not survive and probably 5-10 other Germans did not survive. And Germany was a completely different country after WWII. With a different Government. They got a new Constitution in 1949. And as people have noted, half of it was gone.

It's like saying, our country might not be here, but all of us won't be dead.

[totodeinhere]

23. Yes they survived Hitler but that was after millions of innocent people died.

We don't want a repeat of that whether we will survive it in the long run or not.

[DeminPennswoods]

24. They only had to be destroyed first

nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

25. Stalin was responsible for about 20 million

deaths. He was as horrible as Hitler. I think he had a whole social class killed in Russia.

He and Hitler had very similar backgrounds. They both had physical deformities. Stalin had a deformed arm. Hitler was just wierd looking. They both had horribly abusive fathers. Hitler's father beat him so badly once he was on a coma for 3 days. And Russian peasants were a brutal lot. They both had very religious mothers and they both trained to be priests and then left.


A lot of similarities to Trump.

[Joinfortmill]

26. Yeah, but

12million people died.

[Iggo]

28. Millions and millions and millions and millions of people did not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[jberryhill]

30. After it was reduced to rubble with millions killed and displaced

[misanthrope]

31. Ask Dresden how that worked out

Ever read "Slaughterhouse-Five"?

[PCIntern]

32. How many dead between 1933 and 1945?

Possibly 100 million or more. We will never really know.

[Botany]

34. Germany paid a terrible price

[Hekate]

37. After they were righteously bombed to rubble for murdering millions of human beings

I really wouldn't go there if I were you.

[uponit7771]

38. So around 30 million IS citizens will die before this is all over?!?! Great

[Strelnikov_]

41. 4 out of 5 Poles survived World War 2

Invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, then a major battleground between these powers on the outro.

Things could be worse!!!

[Hekate]

43. Most Polish Jews didn't. And those who managed to return from the camps...

...were not welcomed with open arms.

[Strelnikov_]

47. I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed.

But I do say no more than fifty to seventy million killed . . . tops . . . Uh, depending on the breaks.

[Hekate]

49. This is seriously weird, Strelnikov. What are you channelling, or ingesting?

You said: "I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than fifty to seventy million killed . . . tops . . . Uh, depending on the breaks."

are you even trying to say?

[Strelnikov_]

56. Sorry

Line from Dr. Strangelove . . . since the thread began with a bit of a Strangelove theme.

[Hekate]

59. Ahhhh, sorry I mussed --I mean missed-- that reference!

What a world, what a world.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. If you've never watched "Dr Strangelove", you really should.

[Hekate]

62. I have, but only after I was well into middle age. I know I never saw it in the theaters...

I just kept hearing endlessly how great it was -- and yes, it is, but aside from "precious bodily fluids" which has entered the culture the way some bits from Animal House have, I don't have this stock of phrases in my head.

Ah, wasted youth. In high school and college I didn't have enough spare cash for most movies and had to wait for TCM and DVDs to be invented so I could catch up. Certain movies like Casablanca and Wizard of Oz ended up on rotation on the small screen, flickering into our living rooms thru the cathode ray tube.

[Autumn]

44. And millions died.

[tandem5]

45. Yeah and nuclear winter will solve global warming.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

48. This is...badly worded.

[Initech]

50. Which is why we should never, under any circumstances give Nazis and white supremacists a platform.

Doesn't matter if it's neo Nazis, white supremacists, the Proud Boys or TP USA, they should not be given a national stage. They are doing more harm than good.

[Squinch]

51. Not with its soul intact.

[Kurt V.]

52. Sure we will. just in time for global chaos from climate change. good grief. we have an

Emergency in real time and ppl are saying dont worry.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

53. It seems that you see Hitler and WWII and the Holocaust

as a trivial bump in the road.

Hitler, WWII, and the Holocaust were horrors that murdered millions of people, laid waste to a lot of landscape, and worse. At least, after the worst was over, the rest of Europe helped Germany rebuild. I wonder who will help this country rebuild?

Somehow, this isn't at all cheering to me.

[applegrove]

54. The whole world had to fight. That is not a place we want to go near.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

55. Sorry, even with the biggest grain of salt I could dole out.... this is bad, just bad. n/t

[Shaddox]

57. Oh, yeah. That Holocaust thing was a shame, but thank God Almighty that Germany survived.

[Crunchy Frog]

58. With an immense military effort involving all the major powers

that were not allied with Germany, in a total war that lasted years and left the entire world devastated.

I don't know which military powers are going to get us out of this one, if the worst happens.

[OliverQ]

61. Germany survived Hitler because of the US and Soviet Union

Who is going to declare war on us if Trump needs to be stopped?

[Behind the Aegis]

64. As a gay Jew....not a very comforting analogy.

[GeorgeGist]

65. 50-75 million D E A D.

[obamanut2012]

66. With a butcher's bill of well over 60 million, this is your hot take?!

Yeah, you need to rethink this.

[steve2470]

67. I know you meant well, but...

Germany was almost totally destroyed, between Allied bombing and the Russian invasion from the east. A large percentage of their people were killed. And, of course, the Holocaust and killing of vulnerable minorities (Sinti, Roma, physically disabled, socialists, communists, people of color, etc).

If it wasn't for the American Marshall Plan and decades of opposition to the USSR, Germany might be a semi-agricultural country dominated by the Russians in the east.

If Trumpism continues, the country will break up into much smaller politically homogeneous sections after a civil war. It will be bloody and vicious, largely urban (mostly Democratic) versus rural (overwhelmingly Trumpublican).

I don't want that. With a good candidate and good turnout by Democrats and sympathetic independents, we can stop Trumpism. If we (our coalition) stays home, Trumpism will become further entrenched and god forbid, we might get the kid in 2024, either Ivanka or DJT,Jr.

[treestar]

69. They didn't immediately and were divided into East and West

but by the grace of the world, were allowed to reunite after the fall of the USSR and have been well behaved since. But any hint of aggression would have quick results.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

70. Good reminder! n/t