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Arkansas Granny

(32,265 posts)
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 10:31 AM Feb 2020

This is one of the best gun control arguments I've ever heard. Lengthy thread.

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Omaha Steve (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:03 PM - Edit history (1)


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This is one of the best gun control arguments I've ever heard. Lengthy thread. (Original Post) Arkansas Granny Feb 2020 OP
Thanks for posting this. Zoonart Feb 2020 #1
Interesting MuseRider Feb 2020 #2
Thank you, for posting this thread, Arkansas Granny. wendyb-NC Feb 2020 #3
thread on threadreaderapp ... Hermit-The-Prog Feb 2020 #4
Thanks. Much easier to read. Arkansas Granny Feb 2020 #7
Excellent! smirkymonkey Feb 2020 #5
The whole thing de-linked ... marble falls Feb 2020 #6
full text of 2nd Amendment ... Hermit-The-Prog Feb 2020 #9
Absolutely. The biggest intent of the second amendment was to prevent ... marble falls Feb 2020 #10
That's a new one hack89 Feb 2020 #11
So if you haven't heard about it, it doesn't exist? marble falls Feb 2020 #22
No. If you can't prove it then it didn't happen. hack89 Feb 2020 #23
It is also ignored by Obama, Clinton and Sanders hack89 Feb 2020 #12
Yes, it protects an individual's right to bear arms. Says so, directly. ... Hermit-The-Prog Feb 2020 #13
Yes. Regulation of the militia. aikoaiko Feb 2020 #19
Even Scalia says the 2A allows strict regulation hack89 Feb 2020 #20
My USMC experience bears this out for the most part... Wounded Bear Feb 2020 #8
That was my experience in the Marines also, dware Feb 2020 #16
Well, yeah... Wounded Bear Feb 2020 #17
When I was in Basic Training, we didn't start BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship) until two weeks Aristus Feb 2020 #14
The MAGAts have discovered that Twitter thread and are up to their usual BS. VOX Feb 2020 #15
Always seems like those most vocal about the Constitution... Wounded Bear Feb 2020 #18
All that would be relevant to the militia referred to in the 2ndA. aikoaiko Feb 2020 #21
After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING Omaha Steve Feb 2020 #24

Zoonart

(14,620 posts)
1. Thanks for posting this.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 10:38 AM
Feb 2020

I am going to share it around liberally.

MuseRider

(35,176 posts)
2. Interesting
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 10:46 AM
Feb 2020

thank you.

wendyb-NC

(4,725 posts)
3. Thank you, for posting this thread, Arkansas Granny.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:28 AM
Feb 2020

It is very informative, and supports the argument for common sense gun laws, in this country. These would be a lot less restrictive, than the ones required by the Army, for their enlisted women and men. Please read, it is a rare argument for the responsibilities, that necessarily follow from the 2nd amendment right.

Hermit-The-Prog

(36,631 posts)
4. thread on threadreaderapp ...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:32 AM
Feb 2020

Arkansas Granny

(32,265 posts)
7. Thanks. Much easier to read.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:57 AM
Feb 2020
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
5. Excellent!
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:44 AM
Feb 2020

Thank you for posting, Arkansas Granny!

marble falls

(72,531 posts)
6. The whole thing de-linked ...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:51 AM
Feb 2020


Conversation
John Kaminar
@jidk1187
THREAD. Folks, bear with me for a minute, please. I want to address a point that is often made by gun rights advocates, but which is a fallacy that civilians may not realize. In the interest of full disclosure, I served 30 years in the Army and Army Reserve, I’ve taught
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8:32 AM · Feb 14, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
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John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
Replying to
@jidk1187
marksmanship in the Army and supervised firing ranges and arms storage/security, and am a gun collector who supports the 2nd Amendment in that I believe that a law abiding citizen has the right to be armed if he or she so chooses, but I also believe that this right – like all of
Image
John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
our rights – carries with it significant responsibilities. So, my point: we often hear people say that since we trust an 18-year old soldier to carry an M-16 (the military version of the AR-15), then we should be comfortable allowing 18 year old private citizens to carry one.
Image

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
But here’s what those folks are NOT telling you: 1) no brand new enlistee in the Army (or any branch of the military) is given a firearm on Day 1 of his/her service. They receive quite a bit of training in firearm safety before they ever are allowed to handle the weapon – even

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
if they grew up around guns and know all about them. 2) When they do get to handle their M-16s for the first time, there are no bullets ANYWHERE around. After being trained in firearm safety, they are then trained on the weapon itself without ever firing a live round. They

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
learn how to handle it, carry it safely, disassemble it, clean it, check it for functionality, and reassemble it. 3) When they finally do get to fire the weapon, they are closely, CLOSELY supervised by their sergeants and officers. In fact, when the trainees go to the trainees

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
go to the firing range for the first time, there are almost as many sergeants on the range as there are trainees. And some of the sergeants are assigned the specific responsibility for ensuring everything is done according to Army safety regulations. 4) Once the recruits

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
finish their training and join their units, they NEVER get to carry their firearms around. Those weapons are kept in the unit arms room under double lock and key – each weapon is locked into its storage rack and the arms room itself is locked. And the arms room is protected by

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
an alarm system. 5) No soldier of ANY rank can simply go to the unit armorer (the sergeant responsible for the arms room) and say, “Gee, Sergeant, may I please sign out my M-16? I feel like exercising my 2nd Amendment right today by carrying my rifle around just because I can.”

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
No, the troops only sign out their weapons for authorized purposes, such as marksmanship training or field exercises, and when they do that, they are ALWAYS under the supervision of a sergeant – usually under the supervision of several sergeants and a few officers, to boot. So,

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
friends, that’s the rest of that story. Those 18 year old soldiers whom we trust to carry an assault rifle are doing to under conditions so tightly regulated as to make any gun rights activist blanche in anger. The military recognizes that those weapons are so deadly that they

John Kaminar
@jidk1187
·
Feb 14
never allow soldiers to just carry them around on the installation. Those are the facts of the matter. So the next time one of your gun rights advocating friends tries to feed you that particular line, you can refute them with the facts.



If a soldier can't just carry firearms around military bases just because they feel like it, why should Joe Public?

Hermit-The-Prog

(36,631 posts)
9. full text of 2nd Amendment ...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:09 PM
Feb 2020
Second Amendment
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


[Bold added, because that part is conveniently ignored by RWNJ and Scalia]

marble falls

(72,531 posts)
10. Absolutely. The biggest intent of the second amendment was to prevent ...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:13 PM
Feb 2020

classes of people from being banned from enlisting into the armed services.

hack89

(39,181 posts)
11. That's a new one
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:42 PM
Feb 2020

I have no doubt you can back that up with some historical citations. Can you?

marble falls

(72,531 posts)
22. So if you haven't heard about it, it doesn't exist?
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 06:11 PM
Feb 2020

hack89

(39,181 posts)
23. No. If you can't prove it then it didn't happen.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 09:46 PM
Feb 2020

Right now it is nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

hack89

(39,181 posts)
12. It is also ignored by Obama, Clinton and Sanders
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:44 PM
Feb 2020

Under Obama there was a plank in the party platform stating the 2A protects an individual right to bear arms.

Hermit-The-Prog

(36,631 posts)
13. Yes, it protects an individual's right to bear arms. Says so, directly. ...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:48 PM
Feb 2020

It also mentions regulation.

aikoaiko

(34,214 posts)
19. Yes. Regulation of the militia.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 04:08 PM
Feb 2020

hack89

(39,181 posts)
20. Even Scalia says the 2A allows strict regulation
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 04:09 PM
Feb 2020

AWB, magazine limits, registration, licenses and training requirements are all perfectly constitutional.

It is not the 2A stopping strict gun control.

Wounded Bear

(64,628 posts)
8. My USMC experience bears this out for the most part...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:02 PM
Feb 2020

I don't recall there ever being "more" supervisors at the firing range than recruits, but there were certainly plenty.

Ammunition was very tightly controlled, and weapons were kept secured at all times when not in active excercises.

dware

(18,181 posts)
16. That was my experience in the Marines also,
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 01:44 PM
Feb 2020

although, in a combat zone, the rules were much, much different, we had our weapons with us at all times, even on base.

Wounded Bear

(64,628 posts)
17. Well, yeah...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 03:57 PM
Feb 2020


I was never in combat, but sounds about right, especially for grunts. I was air wing, so supposedly we all had weapons assigned (every Marine is a rifleman ) but we never had access to them until it was time to qual.

Aristus

(72,515 posts)
14. When I was in Basic Training, we didn't start BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship) until two weeks
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 12:57 PM
Feb 2020

into the program.

We had another two weeks of classes regarding the purpose of the rifle, its construction, and how to field strip the firearm. Movies often depict trainees getting to the point where they can disassemble then reassemble the rifle blind-folded. Although we never actually did that, any trainee will tell you that they became confident enough in their knowledge and skill with the weapon to be able to do that.

We had another week of range safety protocol prior to beginning live-fire exercises. When not actually firing at targets, one's rifle was always unloaded and always pointed downrange. The only thing more strictly regulated than the issuance of one's rifle was ammunition. Every rounded was carefully counted out, every brass cartridge was picked up and returned after target practice, and every trainee was searched carefully before leaving the range for either live rounds or spent brass cartridges.

Although there are certainly some ex-military types in the 'all-guns-all-the-time' crowd, I suspect many, if not most of the former military service types who support gun control in civilian life were either drill sergeants or range control personnel. They know better than anyone else the risks and dangers of handing weapons and live ammo to impulsive young kids with something to prove and macho reps to protect.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
15. The MAGAts have discovered that Twitter thread and are up to their usual BS.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 01:13 PM
Feb 2020

Claiming that the OP doesn’t understand the Constitution, etc., etc.

No surprise there. God, they are a tiresome lot.

Wounded Bear

(64,628 posts)
18. Always seems like those most vocal about the Constitution...
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 03:59 PM
Feb 2020

never took an oath to actually "protect and defend it from all enemies, foreign and domestic."

aikoaiko

(34,214 posts)
21. All that would be relevant to the militia referred to in the 2ndA.
Sat Feb 15, 2020, 04:34 PM
Feb 2020


And not the people who get to keep and bear arms.

Omaha Steve

(109,953 posts)
24. After a review by forum hosts....LOCKING
Sun Feb 16, 2020, 09:23 AM
Feb 2020

Please repost in gun control: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172

Gun posts are restricted in this forum.

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