General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGod, I am so tired of the confusion/discussion/obfuscation/ignorance about "socialism".
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by JudyM (a host of the General Discussion forum).
Look, there are currently two flavors of the word:
Socialism == the workers control the means of production, the industrial proletariat overthrows the industrial bourgeoisie, up against the wall capitalist pigs, etc. etc.
This form of "socialism" is what everyone fear mongers on - it's the Cold War, it's left wing South American juntas, it's blah blah blah. It's why people think other people will be scared of "socialism", and why Chris Matthews thinks he's about to be executed.
And then there is
Socialism == paying to have civilization. Pulling resources together so that no one's life is a complete and utter miserable horror story just because they aren't heirs to fortunes. Paying for common goods like roads, courts, the military. Keeping people in poverty from dying of starvation or preventable medical crises. Making the rich pay their fair share for the wonderful society they live in.
This second form of "socialism" is also "society" or "civilization", or "building a world that's better to live in". It's the basis for a lot of government decision making in Finland, Sweden, Denmark, where people are happy and healthy. It's why when I hear "socialism", I get ready to hear about things I like.
The word has been ruined by its first sense. So, can we find a better term for the second sense? "Democratic socialism" is so-so as a label. The democratic part is great - people all need to help decide how we can pull our resources for a better life - but again, 'socialism' is pretty ruined. "Social Democracy" may be slightly better.
But what about "civilization"? or a "fair society" (echos of the "Fair Deal" )?
How about saying for example, that Democrats are running on a platform of "civilization"? If we can't get billionaires to help pay for things, civilization will go away.
I don't know. this nonsense is killing me. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
PatrickforO
(15,100 posts)a "Fair Deal."
I like it.
dalton99a
(84,079 posts)ProfessorPlum
(11,337 posts)but at that point I'm willing to cede the ground on the basis of it being lost. Every time I think we are making process, some idiot on FB posts about the US being plunged into "socialism", like we don't already have the post office and medicare.
handmade34
(22,901 posts)the Republicans want to privatize the post office and cut Medicare
delisen
(6,437 posts)So I think that task needs to be done by someone else.
I am curious about your use of the term "the masses." I have often thought it to be derogatory and very reminiscent of college educated elites or self-styled "intelligencia" depersonalizing and otherizing the majority of people -
Why would you not just say "the people."
murielm99
(31,412 posts)they will tune out and vote for someone else.
Four more years of trump. Get ready for it.
Sancho
(9,099 posts)Your second form of "socialism" may exist, but the differences are lost in the loud noise of the first "flavor":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America#Policy_and_ideology
Tracer
(2,769 posts)Simple as that and easy to understand.
ProfessorPlum
(11,337 posts)the old Republican mantra
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help"
5X
(3,987 posts)upper classes of almost royalty, lower classes of workers supporting the upper classes.
Watched "Sanditon" on pbs last night. Based on Jane Austen's unfinished work where Jane's
story was changed and there was no usual happy ending but, the differences between the classes
was a little more visible.
I sometimes think the GOP would love for us to move in that direction.
I would prefer some kind of capitalism backed up by social fairness and heavy regulation.
Arazi
(6,892 posts)Alliepoo
(2,463 posts)Know, or even care to know, the difference? And yep-Im talking about Dems too. Most folks out there are so busy living their lives and trying to make it that they have no time or inclination to pay much attention to politics. They hear socialism and its a huge negative. Im guessing most folks dont realize that roads, libraries, schools, police and fire protection etc are forms of socialism that they accept and benefit from. And its much too late in this game to try to explain it to them. The repubs have def won the branding war on this one.
ProfessorPlum
(11,337 posts)which is why I'm suggesting smarter branding on our part.
Baclava
(12,047 posts)...reinforces the stereotypes for those over 50 that "socialism=communism" in their minds, no matter how wrong that thinking is.
ProfessorPlum
(11,337 posts)people get confused about which is important. apparently
Alliepoo
(2,463 posts)Socialism. Thats all theyre going to hear with the negative connotations that go along with it and the repubs are going to pound away with great success I fear.
malaise
(277,815 posts)One is what the Communists called Scientific Socialism; the other is Democratic Socialism with a mixed economy and where the social good is a critical component of ensuring basic needs - education, healthcare, good roads, clean water, a clean environment, safety, access to parks and playing fields and so on.
I will die a democratic socialist
Happy Hoosier
(8,329 posts)Wait until October.
ismnotwasm
(42,440 posts)In order for socialism to work, you put taxes in for services. For instance I want public schools with well paid teachers, police, firefighters, good roads you get the idea.
The topic gets out of my league quickly, especially when one makes the jump from state to federal dollars. In other words, the stewardship of the maintenance of roads may differ from state to state, or county to country, or every city to city, but large federally funded programs with funds dispersed to states is a different animal. Still, the ACA failed in states that refused Medicare expansion
So while socialism doesnt bother me, (we have many forms of it. I like to call it sharing) the implementation of socialist programs that individuals states deem interfering with their rights will run into lawsuits time and time again,
Thing is, I work, and I make an ok wage. I will never be rich. Thats ok. My husband is disabled, and on the socialist program of SSDI. I have good insurance, I have a pension.
Paying enough taxes to endure healthcare, pension, the care of my husband in a way where I didnt have to worry about the stress of it is a reasonable exchange to me.
pampango
(24,692 posts)as socialism. From some reason Democrats did not cower in fear in those eras in the face of being called socialists. Granted that a trump nomination is a better name-caller some earlier conservatives but I bet we can beat him too.
cry baby
(6,768 posts)VarryOn
(2,343 posts)Be prepared to get schooled in economics between now and November. We will all learn the slight variance between socialism and communism.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The various interpretations are as silly as pretending we'll all catch the new virus in the nest year or two. But I s'pose that's what happens when non-academics pretend a knowledge not in possession.
ProfessorPlum
(11,337 posts)https://virologydownunder.com/past-time-to-tell-the-public-it-will-probably-go-pandemic-and-we-should-all-prepare-now/?fbclid=IwAR3MU4zXLTiZv9CxQrrOBN2rWwXlqj9cF00bULm9EMCb5-cSX_MK5yiZfeQ
handmade34
(22,901 posts)H2O Man
(75,343 posts)Thank you.
Last week, a good friend who I used to work with stopped to see me. We talked about politics. He holds Trump in contempt, but said he wasn't comfortable with a socialist being president. I reminded him that we both worked at a county mental health clinic, attended public schools, had gone to college in the state university system. More, I noted that he had driven on public highways to get to my house, since there are no longer functioning turnpikes in our area.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)If you're explaining and justifying, you're losing. At this late date... none of this will matter. Our country will not elect a Socialist to be its President.
The constant cries about how being a Democratic socialist doesnt mean he IS a communist-type socialist is a moot point. Unless you plan to go door-to-door and explain the difference to all of the voters who equate socialism with USSR communism, you are not going to change their minds. They hear socialist, and they attach their own (albeit ill-informed) meaning to the term and its NOT the style of government they will vote for.
Ive seen this repeatedly on the sites I participate in where both Dems and Repubs post: I dont want Trump to be re-elected but Ill be damned if Ill vote for a communist. You can shout all you want about how these people dont understand what socialism is, or how what Bernie is proposing isnt socialism as they perceive it. But people vote according to what they believe, and not according to what you think they should believe.
evertonfc
(1,713 posts)but with Bernie it's already baked in. He will just gave to come up with ways to articulate around it
Fiendish Thingy
(18,293 posts)pnwmom
(109,511 posts)pnwmom
(109,511 posts)the first definition (unless, of course, he does)?
Why confuse/obfuscate, etc. for no good reason?
Why is that brand so important to him?
If he's the nominee, there will be many vulnerable members in swing districts of Congress who will have their campaigns become harder by having that label smeared all over them.
Squinch
(52,556 posts)Their eyes will glaze over as we tell them about the very important distinction between socialist and Democratic socialist. Then the republicans will blanket them with the video of Bernie saying, "I am a socialist."
It's gonna be GrEaT.
Thomas Hurt
(13,925 posts)Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)You know there was a way for you to have made sure there was at least one less post on it.
MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)with another of the 40 or so types of socialism we don't understand?
brewens
(15,359 posts)earn a living. Factory and mill workers no longer working for slave wages. We stopped killing off a few thousand miners and railroad workers every year. That whole middle class thing was going pretty well for awhile. Maybe we can bring it back.
None of the reforms socialists helped bring about made us a socialist country.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)JudyM
(29,517 posts)This was alerted on for being in the wrong forum... all threads that relate to the candidates or the primaries/primary issues are restricted to posting in the Dem Primaries forum... here are the rules about Primaries, FYI: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=9260
Fine to repost if youd like to copy it over there