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TygrBright

(20,759 posts)
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 03:43 PM Feb 2020

What People Die From During a Pandemic

Surprisingly, in most pandemics, a large percentage of the mortality rate is due to "secondary factors".

Meaning, the victims were pathogen-positive, but the pathogen itself would not necessarily have killed them.

Secondary factors include:

Delays in seeking care. People who feel "a little off" don't seek care, or fail to administer self-care such as taking rest, hydrating, monitoring their temperature, using anti-inflammatories, treating the symptoms, etc. Or they would be willing to seek care but have no access to care professionals who can prescribe the regimen most likely to help their immune system fight the pathogen, and who can tell them the 'trigger symptoms" (such as a particular degree of fever, or a particular length of a symptom's persistence, etc.) to escalate treatment.

Delays in diagnosis. If there is a treatment protocol, the longer diagnosis is delayed, the longer the pathogen has to multiply, deplete body resources and immune response, and the less effective the treatment protocol may be.

Inadequate or incorrect care. With or without a known, effective treatment protocol, poor care can increase mortality rates by exposing people in crowded, poorly-designed care facilities to re-infection, or by shortages of needed resources such as fluids, medication, equipment and person power to administer treatment.

Sequelae and secondary infections. An already pathogen-compromised immune system is vulnerable to other infections and/or can respond in unhelpful ways to physiological events associated with healing and/or long periods of inactivity.

Those four factors are the culprits to a greater or lesser extent in almost all high pandemic mortality rates.

Once a pathogen is identified and an optimal treatment protocol is developed, mortality rates will decrease quickly even without a specific "cure" medication or vaccine, IF and ONLY IF, communities have in place the resources to decrease the influence of those four factors.

That is:

Awareness and encouragement for everyone to self-monitor and respond to even vague or minor symptoms quickly, supporting preventive measures such as taking time off work to rest, understanding the importance of hydration and helping the body fight inflammation, and knowing what "trigger symptoms" are, so that they can avail themselves of...

Freely available diagnostic screening. This should include triage for severity, education on the treatment protocol, monitoring and support for self-care, and prompt routing to...

No-cost, good-quality, meticulous medical and nursing care for moderate-to-severe infections and...

Careful identification of vulnerable patients and preventive care and isolation to prevent sequelae and secondary infections.

Even without a "cure" medication or vaccine, providing those four things will keep mortality rates in any pandemic much lower than they would be otherwise.

The first one is pretty low-cost to the taxpayer, as it is mostly public education work and perhaps a temporary regulation to prevent employers from firing employees for absenteeism and to provide subsidies for mandated sick pay.

The second one costs more, but is still comparatively cheap if you mobilize emergency services at the community level so that there are trained technicians at clinics, fire stations, shelters, and mobile care stations in every community. EMTs, emergency personnel, and public employees unable to pursue ordinary duties due to preventive quarantine shutdowns can be trained and mobilized at relatively modest cost levels (compared to the costs of dealing with large numbers of acute cases and dead bodies, anyway...)

The third one is costly but there are ways to reduce the cost without compromising quality. Offer free video-based training and teleconsults to family member caregivers and community volunteers, provide "treatment at home" resource packages freely at community care stations, and use your more professional, highly-trained and carefully-equipped caregivers to do mobile monitoring and telecare consults with careful protocols to prevent transmission in the process.

The fourth one is very costly, true. It would involve effectively commandeering hospital and acute care beds and transport resources and setting up a monitoring and care network that can gather and analyze data on vulnerability factors and sequelae and hopefully develop protocols to reduce severity and incidence. But again, it's less costly than dealing with overwhelming numbers of acute cases and dead bodies.

A competent national government would already be working to implement #1 and prepare for the other three.

Many state and large-city public health offices are already on this, but their efforts will not be as effective as they could be with national coordination and extra resources directed to them.

And so when the COVID-19 pandemic takes hold in America we are likely to see a mortality rate considerably higher than necessary.

Because we allowed Russia to install an unelected moron to pwn the libs. Still happy about that, MAGAts?

Please read the foregoing carefully, and do your own preparations. Educate yourselves. Don't hesitate to treat physical symptoms, even vague ones, seriously. TAKE the time off work. You can't get another job if you're dead. Don't stockpile stupid stuff like masks, but DO make sure you have a good supply of clean water or filters, anti-inflammatories, nutritious and easy-to-prepare food that a pathogen-compromised system can deal with.

If you don't have one, invest in a good thermometer to monitor fever. Learn to count your own pulse and respiration rate. As soon as you feel unwell, track temperature, pulse and respiration a few times a day and record your results. Take notes on the development and severity of your symptoms.

Keep an eye on your family and loved ones. Encourage them to take care of any symptoms, share your monitoring protocol with them, be prepared to help them out.

We seem to be largely on our own, but that doesn't mean we can't survive this.

practically,
Bright

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What People Die From During a Pandemic (Original Post) TygrBright Feb 2020 OP
Thank you for the good information. BComplex Feb 2020 #1
I was hospitalized with the flu in 2018 Dawgman49 Feb 2020 #2
I am curious if you had a flu shot Skittles Feb 2020 #27
I had a virus that followed behind several days of flu, causing high fevers ooky Mar 2020 #31
Thanks for posting, Bright! Heartstrings Feb 2020 #3
good information. but until we have a way of accurately diagnosing .. stopdiggin Feb 2020 #4
CALL AHEAD to your doctor's office or the ER so they can prepare for infectious disease. Bernardo de La Paz Feb 2020 #6
Self-care should always be the first step in any case. As noted in the OP. n/t TygrBright Feb 2020 #14
K&R smirkymonkey Feb 2020 #5
Take advantage of telemedicine jmbar2 Feb 2020 #7
The post is full of good info and at first I thought it was a serious posting until I read in2herbs Feb 2020 #8
We have 50 state governments who will have to step up Hekate Feb 2020 #10
Excellent advice! peggysue2 Feb 2020 #9
I touch my face so instinctively (and often) that I've moonscape Feb 2020 #12
LOL!! I might have to remember the big fluffy mittens peggysue2 Feb 2020 #13
Your idea of stocking up on Rx drugs: DENVERPOPS Feb 2020 #18
Yes, that's all mine covers. nt Habibi Feb 2020 #24
Yes, that is a definite problem peggysue2 Feb 2020 #25
Practical indeed. Am trying to figure out a shopping list at the moment... Hekate Feb 2020 #11
Overstocking can be as much of a problem as not preparing at all. TygrBright Feb 2020 #16
I live in Earthquake Country, aka Fire Country, so some of this is second nature. My problem... Hekate Feb 2020 #28
Absolutely! Add batteries to the list if you think power interruptions are likely. TygrBright Feb 2020 #29
too late..... getagrip_already Feb 2020 #17
Thanks for this very useful information - much appreciated. nt iluvtennis Feb 2020 #15
If only some brilliant scientist could invent an in-home test kit.... KY_EnviroGuy Feb 2020 #19
Can't hurt to go get a pneumonia shot now?! mdelaguna Feb 2020 #20
Yes You Should McKim Feb 2020 #30
People are buying cases of bottled water Maggiemayhem Feb 2020 #21
People are stupid. roamer65 Mar 2020 #33
This may finally drag us into free healthcare lindysalsagal Feb 2020 #22
If there's one thing that we humans do well it's die so it should come as no surprise that abqtommy Feb 2020 #23
need to add a lot of people CANNOT AFFORD TO SEEK TREATMENT Skittles Feb 2020 #26
My oldest child almost died from lack of diagnosis of her pneumonia. EllieBC Mar 2020 #32
They take it as an affront if you speak up for yourself Nature Man Mar 2020 #34
Yes. And I was told I was breaking protocol by going EllieBC Mar 2020 #35

Dawgman49

(226 posts)
2. I was hospitalized with the flu in 2018
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 04:17 PM
Feb 2020

After 4 days at home on tamiflu,didn’t help and the fever had me dehydrated to the point of going into renal failure...tested negative for that particular strain of flu..so they brought in an infectious disease specialist from Charleston sc. they couldn’t figure it out...and she said that I had some other virus they couldn’t identify and quarantined me for the flu...they were concerned about pneumonia,congenative heart disease, fortunately at 70 years of age was in good health and conditioning...kidneys cleared, with no other complications...point is that I would have died from kidney failure or pneumonia...These viruses can be deadly and symptoms should not be ignored

ooky

(8,922 posts)
31. I had a virus that followed behind several days of flu, causing high fevers
Sun Mar 1, 2020, 01:46 AM
Mar 2020

and then attacked my spleen, causing it to rupture. I nearly died from bleeding out internally. The doctors who were working to save me that night told my family I had a 50/50 chance of making it through the night. That is how close I came.

I also had infectious disease case workers trying to identify what my virus was - they never could determine it.

Anytime I start running a fever anymore I get very nervous, and I am very paranoid of people getting within by breathing space.

Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
3. Thanks for posting, Bright!
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 04:35 PM
Feb 2020

As a senior myself, being aware could be the difference between life and death.

stopdiggin

(11,302 posts)
4. good information. but until we have a way of accurately diagnosing ..
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 04:40 PM
Feb 2020

having people queue up at docto'rs offices and emergency rooms "to be safe" or because they feel "a little off" isn't going to help under current conditions. Right now .. your doctor, or clinician, doesn't know whether you have a common cold, the flu, or the Covid-19 .. and they don't have any way of telling. So .. unless you are presenting acute symptoms .. they are going to see you, prescribe, and release you to go home .. the same as they would for a conventional flu or cold.

The problem with the "be safe" scenario of visiting with your doctor .. is that we run the risk of overwhelming the system with "be safe" visits .. and thus compromising delivery of care to cases that are critical or acute.

And the damned if you do, and damned if you don't, catch here is .. that China is telling us that many people that are positive present in very mild or slight ways (or perhaps not at all?) ... So ...?

I think the answer here is that we have to get the ability to TEST for the virus on board as quickly as possible. Up until then ... The health care system (and the public) is just spinning it's wheels.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,001 posts)
6. CALL AHEAD to your doctor's office or the ER so they can prepare for infectious disease.
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 04:50 PM
Feb 2020

Don't just walk in and sit and cough.

jmbar2

(4,878 posts)
7. Take advantage of telemedicine
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 04:55 PM
Feb 2020

My smalltown healthcare clinic can do telephone consultations.

Rather than risk either carrying infection to the Drs' office, or picking something up there, I'd start with a telephone call.

in2herbs

(2,945 posts)
8. The post is full of good info and at first I thought it was a serious posting until I read
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 05:07 PM
Feb 2020

"The first one is pretty low-cost to the taxpayer, as it is mostly public education work and perhaps a temporary regulation to prevent employers from firing employees for absenteeism and to provide subsidies for mandated sick pay." bold mine.

Given this administration's penchant for it's lack of support for the working man/woman I thought you were trying to go comedian. /s

peggysue2

(10,828 posts)
9. Excellent advice!
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 05:18 PM
Feb 2020

This is what should be coming out of the Oval Office, a clear message that can calm the overly anxious. Panic is the worst reaction we can have in the present situation. There's a lot we don't know about this outbreak but we do know the spread is coming, even with the best precautions. We as individuals and communities can prepare for that likelihood without pushing every alarm bell. I picked up a few things yesterday on my weekly shopping trip (extra water, a few extras in food) and will follow through next week. I did notice that sanitizers had been bought readily. The Purell shelves, for instance, were completely bare. I plan to purchase the item on line.

One important thing is to stock up on any prescription drugs you may take regularly. My husband is diabetic and has a 90-day prescription on most of his scripts. He assessed his supply and ordered accordingly, just in case there's a disruption in supply lines. These are things we can do in preparation rather than bunker down fearing the worst.

We'll get through this if we keep our heads and remember the practical stuff.

Btw, when I was out yesterday, I tried practicing not to touch my face, eyes, nose and mouth specifically. It's really hard, something that will require many practice sessions.

moonscape

(4,673 posts)
12. I touch my face so instinctively (and often) that I've
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 05:31 PM
Feb 2020

yet to be able to train myself to STOP IT! I got a Vogmask N99 a few years ago (cancer) just to have during flu season - not to protect myself from the flu, but to protect myself from me! Alternately, I could wear big fluffy mittens

peggysue2

(10,828 posts)
13. LOL!! I might have to remember the big fluffy mittens
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 05:42 PM
Feb 2020

I think we all do this instinctively. As soon as you try to stop, you realize how often our hands fly to our face. Remarkable really.

Shackles might work. But that would make driving somewhat difficult.

Definitely requires practice.

DENVERPOPS

(8,818 posts)
18. Your idea of stocking up on Rx drugs:
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:39 PM
Feb 2020

The problem is, that if your Prescription Drug Coverage only allows for 30 day refills, you will have to pay the Retail price for any amount higher than that..........and that retail/normal price is usually prohibitive......

peggysue2

(10,828 posts)
25. Yes, that is a definite problem
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 07:16 PM
Feb 2020

My husband is on Medicare, so he has the option of the 90-day resupply. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think if we had real leadership in DC (the sort that put the welfare of the population first), they could lean on and pressure these insurance companies to lift the restrictions during a medical crisis. I would think if there weren't so many gag orders on the medical community at the moment, they would be raising the alarm.

From what I've read, the basic ingredients for a lot of these drugs come from China. That supply line has already been pinched because of the outbreak and quarantine. I did read that one specific drug (sorry can't remember the name) was already in short supply. The CDC said they were working on recommendations for substitutes (or combination of substitutes) for this particular prescription medication. So, maybe that's the way they're planning on handling it. Although in some cases I suspect there aren't good substitutes, as in a individual's reaction to a substitute (does it actually do the job for the patient) and/or allergic reasons.

Over the counter meds, however, can be readily obtained at the moment. So anything you might take for inflammation, fever, congestion or cold and flu remedies should be purchased as a precaution.

But the script meds? I just don't know. Think I'd share my concern with my doctor, see if he/she had any suggestions.

TygrBright

(20,759 posts)
16. Overstocking can be as much of a problem as not preparing at all.
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:28 PM
Feb 2020

Someone upthread suggested a 90-day supply of critical medications, and that's a good idea.

A SMALL amount of bottled water, for someone who lives alone or in a situation where they cannot boil and/or filter tap water might not be a bad notion either. (Extra filters, check.)

Food that's good to consume when your body's fighting illness can vary by culture and custom, but high-protein broth is a good basic. If you're coping with fever and trying to stay hydrated, salty but bland crackers or biscuits will help. Some not-too-nasty bland sugary beverage like ginger ale, tonic water, lemon-lime soda in small single-serve packaging will help, too.

Beyond that, some of my favorites include apple sauce, yogurts in single-serving containers (not something I normally buy but useful for longer keeping). Stuff in cans or aseptic cartons that can be microwaved easily, a few frozen prepped meals. Crackers, cookies with a long shelf life. Veggies that keep well in the crisper drawer and can be easily washed and prepped and/or eaten raw with yogurt-based dips, like carrots, kohlrabi, jicama, etc.

Should your community decide to implement 'stay home' preventive recommendations, you'd of course want to have extra pet food, cat litter, toilet paper, and plenty of soap. A couple of bars of Fels Naptha comes in useful for many, many things. Some rubber, plastic, or nitrile gloves. A small bottle of bleach that can be diluted for cleaning surfaces or laundering bedding.

The idea is not to go full doomsday prepper- that just makes it harder for communities to manage supply chains and makes morons like the bucket-sellers rich. just enough so that if you have to stay home for a few days unexpectedly, you're not missing anything critical.

We're likely to have some warning as it progresses. It will hit the coastal areas earliest (we're already seeing that) and the large inland cities. State and local public health officials know that good information, simply conveyed and regularly updated, is their very best resource for controlling the worst of a pandemic. You can bet they're already figuring out how to make it available.

helpfully,
Bright

Hekate

(90,674 posts)
28. I live in Earthquake Country, aka Fire Country, so some of this is second nature. My problem...
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 08:01 PM
Feb 2020

... has more to do with having had a total knee replacement on 2/19, and still being very house bound.

Hubby's been doing a sterling job taking care of the two of us, but there are limitations, and this is going to be one of them. He asked for a "Costco list" this morning, imagining I was going to ask for some more half-and-half and maybe a pkg of froz mixed veg. He was very upset when I immediately started to write the disaster-preparedness-list instead. An activity that I find soothing (making a list) because it gives me a sense of having some control over my life, instead gives him a sense of impending doom. So I will amend my list for him, and instead take up one of the offers to help I've had from, for instance, my SIL.

Your suggestions were heartening as a reminder that I've got us pretty well set up, and a reminder of a few more things... I do worry about power outages, but that really relates to earthquakes and fires -- when we were finally allowed home after the Thomas Fire, the first order of business after expressing amazement and gratitude that the neighborhood was still standing was to throw out every blessed thing in the refrigerator and freezer, including all my beautiful homemade bone broth.

Spare a thought for Hawaii! I lived there in my younger days, and if none of you have ever heard of a West Coat Dock Strike, it's because it never came within a million miles of affecting you. The botched federal response to the pandemic is going to be that on steroids -- airlines and ships are what makes modern-day Hawaii possible, and I am talking about life's daily necessities, not tourism.

Preparedly standing shoulder to shoulder,

Hekate

Instant coffee, both decaf and caf
Canned milk
Hand soap
Purell if avail
Froz chicken.....

TygrBright

(20,759 posts)
29. Absolutely! Add batteries to the list if you think power interruptions are likely.
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 08:22 PM
Feb 2020

Yes, Hawai'i will have a tough time. I'm praying about Puerto Rico, too... the last thing THEY need, for heavenssakes.

But yeah, Costco has a good selection of decent stuff in aseptic cartons- I got some "organic" bone broth there last week, and a box of flavored rice aseptic pouches. Not, again, something I'd normally buy but I'll manage to use them up I'm sure.

My Esposo is firmly in the Hitchhiker's Guide camp, and helps keep me calm and in perspective, too.

One thing I do is buy an extra or two of stuff. Our little neighborhood is tight, not too sociable but we all know each other. If a neighbor is in need, better to run next door than head to a shopping mall.

For me the adjustment is going to be remembering to not to do as much hugging, order Netflix instead of going to movies at the theater, take-away instead of eating at restaurants, etc. But we'll manage.

I imagine the Finance Committee of my employer's Board of Trustees is already making contingency plans, and if we have to do more work from home and cancel get-together events and meetings in favor of Zoom and webinar-type information sharing, well, that at least is a resource modern technology affords.

My real worry (I work for a foundation that makes grants) is that this market crash will have the same effect as the 2008 crash, when we had to sharply curtail grant making as well as all taking a cut in hours and pay. Multiply that times thousands of grant makers having to downscale their programs, in a time of ballooning need...

We're just at the tip of the iceberg of "Unanticipated consequences of feckless dumbfuckery in high places".

Hope the knee comes back quickly- my friends who have had replacements say that it feels like it never will until it does. And then it's like, "wow!"

appreciatively,
Bright

getagrip_already

(14,742 posts)
17. too late.....
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:29 PM
Feb 2020

Just try to find a face mask or even hand sanitizer. All the stores - even home depot - have been cleaned out. Tami-flu? Nope.

Sure, ebay has "stuff", at super high prices. Scalpers have been busy buying up what they think people will scramble for.

Next will be bulk food items like rice, flour, sugar, etc. People think we have an eleastic supply of simple goods, but we really don't. There aren't warehouses with months of stocks out there. Everything has moved to just in time inventories based on current consumption patterns, and when everyone rushes out and try's to build their doomsday shelters at once, basic goods will indeed become scarce.

Just like bread and milk before a snowstorm, but on a much larger scale. People won't be stocking up for a week, they will try to provision for months.

It's already begun. This is the opening the white supremacists have been hoping for I fear. They can easily stoke riots if food becomes scarce. Then they can impose martial law, or worse.

Dark places. But on a happier note, spring is only a month off. Woo-hoo.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,490 posts)
19. If only some brilliant scientist could invent an in-home test kit....
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:46 PM
Feb 2020

that might be a game-changer during such disease outbreaks.

I am sometimes a dreamer......

mdelaguna

(471 posts)
20. Can't hurt to go get a pneumonia shot now?!
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:47 PM
Feb 2020

I’m not 65 yet (not terribly far off) but have asthma and have gotten pneumonia before. Asked my doc for a prescription for one and the pharmacy administered it today. I feel like this is a good move anyway but perhaps even more so if it’s a Covid complication.

lindysalsagal

(20,680 posts)
22. This may finally drag us into free healthcare
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 06:58 PM
Feb 2020

Because although big pharma and insurance companies don't mind a 2% mortality rate, possibly we do......

We will probably open free clinics everywhere, and people will get accustomed to it.....

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
23. If there's one thing that we humans do well it's die so it should come as no surprise that
Sat Feb 29, 2020, 07:01 PM
Feb 2020

during any pandemic there will continue to be deaths due to the standard causes that aren't related
directly to the pandemic. I can't figure out if my thought process is a gift or a curse...

EllieBC

(3,014 posts)
32. My oldest child almost died from lack of diagnosis of her pneumonia.
Sun Mar 1, 2020, 01:53 AM
Mar 2020

Repeated trips to the walk in clinic and local hospital ER and I kept being told, “it’s just a cold. If it gets worse come back.”. Come back I did, repeatedly. She was born a micro preemie and has lung issues yet that never registered with them.

I finally said screw it and took her straight to BC Children’s Hospital where they gave her a chest X-ray, did blood work, did a nasal something test, and diagnosed her. And immediately admitted her for several days. She required O2 support for a couple of days.

Had I kept playing the typical wait and see game she might not be here.

If you think a doctor isn’t taking your symptoms seriously, keep pushing. Push hard. You are your own advocate.

EllieBC

(3,014 posts)
35. Yes. And I was told I was breaking protocol by going
Sun Mar 1, 2020, 10:21 PM
Mar 2020

to Children’s when there was a local hospital. Stick your protocols and your GP staffed local hospital in your bum!

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