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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPrison, for Trump, is out of the question.
It is difficult for me to see repeated DU threads and posts advocating for the imprisonment of Donald Trump. I am always tempted to chime in with Yes, but ... .
It's not that Trump doesn't deserve prison. For acts committed while he was President, I thought George W. Bush deserved imprisonment as well, but it is important to understand that no President of the United States has ever, ever, been imprisoned after his term in office, and it's not like all of our Presidents have been saints. No, some of our Presidents have deserved imprisonment. We just don't do it--never have, and I hope we never will. Why?
It's called THE PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER.
Remarks of the Hon. Dianne Feinstein upon the Inauguration of President Barack Obama
Those who doubt the supremacy of the ballot over the bullet can never diminish the power engendered by non-violent struggles for justice and equality like the one that made this day possible. No triumph tainted by brutality could ever match the sweet victory of this hour and of what it means to those who marched and died to make it a reality.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Remarks_at_the_inauguration_of_Barack_Obama
With the exception of the election of 1860, whenever power has switched hands from one party to another in the United States, it has done so peacefully, but it has done so with one, key caveat. Neither the outgoing President, nor key members of the outgoing party, can be criminally charged for acts committed while they were in power. That's it. That's our only rule, and that's the only reason, historically speaking, that the outgoing party has actually been willing to relinquish power following an electoral loss. If Trump knew that he was going to get prosecuted (and probably imprisoned) as soon as he left office, he would refuse to surrender the reigns of power. On the other hand, if he knew he was going to get a free pass if only he would agree to allow a new administration to control the government, he might actually go peacefully. So we all hope.
So please, drop your fantasies of prosecuting and imprisoning this horrible excuse for a man. It won't happen. It shouldn't happen. No matter how heinous his crimes, the continuity of the republic is more important, and the peaceful transition of power can only be achieved if we give Trump a free pass for everything that he has done in office (and before)--just so that he will go away when his time is up.
-Laelth
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Zoonart
(11,849 posts)Anything can happen.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I don't get the BLACK SWAN allusion.
-Laelth
Blecht
(3,803 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
kimbutgar
(21,130 posts)Thank you.
Butterflylady
(3,542 posts)My bad.
Me.
(35,454 posts)He ends up catching the virus and it is truly the end...titled the Just Desserts Black Swan
dhol82
(9,352 posts)Me.
(35,454 posts)Even Mar-A-Lago has been declared a hot spot
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)wearing a jumpsuit that matched his face, I realize that it's not likely to happen. What I want more than anything is for him to just go the fuck away. Forever. Whatever happens to him, I don't really care as long as I don't have to see his ugly orange face or hear his whiny voice ever again. The worst punishment for him wouldn't be prison (I hear Bernie Madoff is thriving there, having become something of a celebrity); it would be total obscurity. That's what I wish for him.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)I would be fine with that.
True Blue American
(17,984 posts)Go to Prison. I do think he will be involved in law suits for the rest of his life and will die a broken old man.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)homegirl
(1,428 posts)Happen because Donald is going to flee to extradition free Russia. His BFF will welcome him with honors and ceremony. Donald, being Donald will seek the limelight. Putin will arrange for Donald to have a fatal encounter with a poisoned umbrella tip.
Phoenix61
(17,003 posts)The whole you cant indict a sitting president forces the issue. This has absolutely nothing to do with the peaceful transition of power its about being prosecuted for criminal behavior.
Solomon
(12,310 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
SCantiGOP
(13,869 posts)We might not have trump doing some of the obvious illegal acts he is perpetrating in public view.
I have no issue at all with an investigation of his crimes after he leaves office and appropriate action.
One ideal should stand above all others: NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Our history, however, shows that we follow a somewhat different rule. YOU ARE above the law if you win the national popularity contest that makes you President of the United States, but this is true if, and only if, you agree to relinquish power when you are defeated at the ballot box.
In the grand scheme of things, this is not a bad rule, imo.
-Laelth
GReedDiamond
(5,311 posts)Except president dumb motherfucker did NOT win "the national popularity contest," he lost the popular vote to Secy. Clinton.
And once he's out of office, he SHOULD be prosecuted for his many criminal acts while in office, regardless of the fact no previous president has been.
There must be consequences for his criminal actions or we'll get another Trumpfuck-styled asshole fake president in the future.
As already noted by the poster you replied to, if Tricky Dick had not been pardoned by Ford, we might not be in the situation we are in now.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)But Trump isnt going to prison. No former president in our history has. Joe Biden, once elected, will give the Orange Menace blanket immunity, and that will be the end of it. The interests of the republic and the peaceful transition of power must take precedence over our judicial principle that no person is above the law.
-Laelth
GReedDiamond
(5,311 posts)...then FORMER president hitler junior can be investigated and prosecuted.
President Biden should do the right thing and NOT give the fucking cretin "blanket immunity."
Just because no previous president has been prosecuted for crimes committed in office doesn't mean it couldn't happen someday.
I will hold out hope for that happening.
CrispyQ
(36,457 posts)If the dems ever gain control of the WH and both chambers of Congress they need to act with boldness and pass laws that make some of our norms and traditions actual laws. Like all presidential candidates SHALL reveal their last ten years of tax filings.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen this kind of boldness in our party in a long time. I think the old guard still hasn't come to terms with the fact that their colleagues across the aislesome of whom they've worked with for decadesare no longer advocates of true representative government. Actually, they never were, but demographics were in their favor. Now that that's changing, they are going to lie, cheat, & steal to stay in power. They have almost succeeded in getting one party rule.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
treestar
(82,383 posts)of course, they should not be imprisoned for their politics. There are countries in which the opposition is locked up or put under house arrest for no other reason - dictators do that to their opponents.
There are countries where you can be locked up for "insulting the head of state."
There are no political crimes on the books in the US of that type. But someone who commits an actual crime is not above the law.
The Dotard probably won't go to prison, but in theory if a crime can be proven against him, why shouldn't he? It would have nothing to do with a peaceful transition.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)He didnt go to prison. No president in our history has. The same will be the case with Trump. Once elected, Joe Biden will give him blanket immunity in exchange for Trumps going quietly into the night, and we will all breathe a sigh of relief knowing that Trump is no longer holding the reigns of power.
The interests of the republic (including the peaceful transition of power) must supersede the interests of justice (including the principle that no person is above the law).
-Laelth
treestar
(82,383 posts)Biden would be doing this for an opposition person. And would get plenty of criticism for it right on DU about the Dems turning the other cheek, the Rs would not do the same, etc.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I think it will work the same way when Biden lets Trump off the hook.
-Laelth
treestar
(82,383 posts)I've seen a lot of complaint on DU anyway for Obama not doing anything about Bush.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)If I minimize the arguments that those of us on the left made in favor of prosecuting Bush, it is because I was disappointed, in the end. I know that nothing came of it. Evidently, the peaceful transition of power trumps justice, as I learned in 2009, and as I am warning people is likely to be the case in 2021 when Trump gets away with all of his criminal offenses against the people of the United States.
For better or for worse ...
-Laelth
sop
(10,157 posts)for committing crimes while in office. I know of no law or custom exempting a President from criminal liability for crimes committed while in (or out of) office, after he's no longer POTUS.
Prosecuting a president for political crimes - like starting a war based on lies, causing thousands of deaths from mishandling a national health crisis, or simply being a divisive, racist demagogue - is not what we're talking about here. Actual crimes - like tax evasion, public corruption, campaign finance violations, money laundering, and others - must be prosecuted, even if it's a president.
Nixon wasn't prosecuted because Ford pardoned him. Unless Trump manages to have Pence pardon him on the way out, and only for federal crimes, if this POS can be shown to have broken the law, he has to be prosecuted, and jailed if need be. That goes for his family as well.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)You posted an excellent list of George W. Bushs crimescrimes for which he could have been prosecuted and imprisoned, but he wasnt. Why?
Its long-standing American tradition. No president has ever gone to prison for crimes committed in office. Thats how we insure the peaceful transition of power. The interests of the republic (the peaceful transition of power) take precedence over the interests of justice. So it has been throughout the 233 years of our republics history.
-Laelth
sop
(10,157 posts)Numerous presidents and other elected/appointed officials have engaged in abuses of power while in office, but have not been criminally prosecuted. We generally don't prosecute political acts, no matter how terrible. However, if an elected official breaks an actual criminal or civil law, either while in or out of office, they are routinely prosecuted.
VP Spiro Agnew was investigated for criminal conspiracy, bribery, extortion and tax fraud. He took kickbacks from contractors during his time as Baltimore County Executive and Governor of Maryland. Agnew worked out a deal to avoid a trial and pleaded no contest to a single felony charge of tax evasion. He resigned from office in disgrace. Democrats at the time wanted him imprisoned.
Bill Clinton was found guilty of giving false testimony (perjury) and contempt after lying under oath about sex with Monica Lewinsky. After a plea deal to avoid further criminal prosecution after leaving office, Clinton was fined $90,000 and disbarred. Republicans at the time wanted him to go to jail.
In recent years a Governor went to jail for selling Obama's Senate seat, the Speaker of the House was imprisoned for covering up sexual abuse of boys, Nixon's Attorney General and numerous members of his administration went to prison following Watergate, Reagan's administration was full of convicted felons of all stripes, and the list goes on.
Trump has already been indicted for a crime in NY, and his attorney, acting as his bagman in the commission of that crime, is currently in jail. Several other Trump henchmen are either in jail or awaiting sentencing for crimes committed on his behalf. If after further investigation it can be determinec that Trump may be guilty of additional felonies - like money laundering, tax evasion and God only knows what else - he can and will be charged and prosecuted. Whether the scumbag goes to prison, or not, is another matter.
Personally, I'd like to see a plea deal worked out so Trump and his entire crime family are barred from ever speaking publicly in any way, using twitter or other social media, going on FOX News to spread their lies and BS, or ever participating in our political process again. Call it a sort of a Non Disclosure Agreement on his way out the door.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I feel no need to comment further. We see what we see.
-Laelth
unblock
(52,196 posts)well, i agree that as a *practical* matter, seeing him in prison just ain't gonna happen.
however, politicians can and have gone to prison for acts committed in office.
only official acts are protected. if a president just plain murders someone in the oval office in cold blood, he can most definitely be prosecuted tried, convicted, and imprisoned for that. less theoretically, politicians have gone to prison for bribery and such. possession of illegal drugs and tax evasion have also tripped up politicians in the past.
again, though, i agree that it ain't gonna happen. he probably won't even get properly investigated, and even if he did, by the time that investigation was able to lead to an indictment, trial, and conviction, donnie would be out of office and more than able to claim that his ill health means and prison would be a death sentence, so realistically the best we could hope for would be a large fine. the best wildest hope might be house arrest where his confined to one of his mansions. big whoop.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)He could, and probably would, be imprisoned. Otherwise, we agree. Hes highly unlikely to face any judicial sanctions for anything that he has done in his life.
On the other hand, he will go down in history as one of only three presidents to have ever been impeached, and he will go down in history as, perhaps, THE WORST PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY. That seems fair to me.
-Laelth
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)and SHOULD prosecute for any state crimes predating his Presidency. No immunity there.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I doubt it will, however. Most of us will be happy just to see the Great Pumpkin go away.
-Laelth
EmeraldCoaster
(131 posts)No one is above the law.
Justice nothing to do with peaceful tradition of power.
It is a foundational governing principle.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)The interests of the republic must come first, even above our general principle that no person is above the law.
-Laelth
not_the_one
(2,227 posts)If the republic doesn't exist, the point is moot, isn't it?
If the turd gets away with this the Democratic party will be history. Is THAT what you want?
If we win and do nothing, that is it. Game over.
I don't give a damn about what has, or has never happened before. We are in a unique circumstance, and to continue as business as usual is not an acceptable option. If Biden decides to do nothing I will fight him with every ounce of my being, from day one. Only idiots repeat the past and expect different results.
Democrats are known to be a bunch of cowards. That is WHY we are in this position. I have no intention of going along, to get along.
This whole thread has me disgusted.
You are preemptively throwing in the towel, trying to convince the rest of us to go along? Yeah, right.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I am advising you to throw in the towel on that goal.
My goal is to get Trump out of office, and I do believe that Trumps leaving office is in the best interests of the republic, yes. If it takes giving Trump blanket immunity from criminal prosecution to get Trump to leave peacefully, I will consider that a small price to pay.
-Laelth
malaise
(268,933 posts)across the globe and why do so many Americans support not only coups, but assassinations, invasions and occupations of other sovereign nations?
I am asking a very serious question because you cannot defend one and not the other unless you believe in your own exceptionalism. Further to believe both is madness.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Elsewhere, were not so picky and puristfor better or for worse, and our habit of supporting and fomenting violent overthrows of foreign governments is a clear stain on our history. Regardless, were smart enough to discourage violent revolutions HERE, and, with the exception of the election of 1860, we have been able to assure the peaceful transition of power in the United States. I think we will continue to do so. The way we will continue to do so is by giving legal immunity to Trump and his administration, no matter how guilty and/or criminally liable they may be.
-Laelth
malaise
(268,933 posts)so successful.
That approach will mean the end of the Republic because neither the Con nor ReTHUGs give a shit about democracy - they only want power and wealth.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)And we happen to be on the right side of history. This republic is over 233 years old. Were also the wealthiest and most powerful nation that the world has ever seen. Trump cant destroy this republic, nor can the pathetic Republican party.
Were struggling, yes. This is not our most glorious hour, no, but I have strong faith that our republic can and will survive.
-Laelth
malaise
(268,933 posts)when you promote coups the culture eventually seeps in.
edhopper
(33,570 posts)nt
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Lock him up.
(6,925 posts)If the orange virus broke NY State Laws (money laundering, tax fraud, et al) he can be held accountable.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I just don't think that he will be. Most of us will be happy simply to see him gone.
-Laelth
Lock him up.
(6,925 posts)But I don't think Attorney General of New York Letitia James will give him a pass IF she has clear evidence he broke NY State Law, be it multiple and systematic tax frauds, bank frauds (diminishing numbers to evade taxes or increasing the same numbers to get loans, as Cohen testified to Congress). Also, all the shenanigans to launder money from Russian oligarchs. Otherwise, there are two systems of justice and that can't happen in any democratic country (or State).
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)nothing special about a nation that allows itself to be extorted by a criminal. People here love to claim "no one is above the law!". Yeah, we know it's bullshit. But for once it'd be nice if we actually practiced what we preach. There is nothing in the constitution that allows a chief executive to commit crimes with impunity. Only cowardice from successive administrations because they fear that the next guy will do it to them.
We used to have a Justice Department in this country. And somebody, no matter who that somebody is. Is found to have committed criminal acts. Let the chips fall where they may.
Sure, this prick is not going to jail. At least I'm 97% sure he's not. But there's no need to make excuses and rationalizations for unjust bullshit.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I am not making excuses for Trumps behavior, but I am explaining why he will suffer no legal consequences for his behavior. The interests of the republic (including the peaceful transition of power) supersede the interests of justice (including the principle that no person is above the law). Trump will be let off the hook in exchange for his relinquishing the reigns of power. Such has been the case throughout the history of this republic (with the notable exception of the election of 1860).
-Laelth
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)bullshit "tradition" which excuses and encourages lawlessness at our highest levels. That bullshit needs to stop. I don't see it stopping any time soon. But it's time this fucking country grew the fuck up.
And I'm pretty sure no one here needs that "explained" to them. But they sure as shit don't have to like it.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)they've survived. Holy shit! Imagine that. The goddamn rule of law can work. What the fuck is this country made of then?
crickets
(25,962 posts)We can have a peaceful transition of power and send a criminal politician to jail. Other governmental representatives have been found guilty of crimes committed while in office and sent to prison, whether removed from office or tried and sentenced after leaving. The president should be no different.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Not once in our nations history has a former president been imprisoned. Insuring the peaceful transition of power is the reason ... for better or for worse.
-Laelth
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)fascists.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)For better or for worse ...
-Laelth
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I hate them. I am sorry that I am not a better person, but they are even more evil and they are destroying this nation and too many innocent people. They deserve a horrible fate.
RealityChik
(382 posts)I can imagine a scenario where, in the spirit of peaceful transition, he works out a deal to step down when he loses the election, with a plane ready to immediately deliver him and his criminal family to the country of his choice that does not have an extradition agreement with the US, like Dubai. This way, he'd be safely out of reach for any criminal apprehension that would otherwise occur the moment he stepped out of the White House. Sadly, just to get rid of him and MAYBE avoid a full-scale civil war, we'd probably also have to agree to let him have all his ill-gotten money too so he could continue to live out his fantasy of being the faux king he always wanted to be. And God forbid a Pence presidential pardon for him and his family would be part of this deal.
I think something like this is the best we can hope for. Especially if there were a possibility that Putin would be relentless in hunting him and his family down with some Polonium tea or a fake heart attack as punishment for failing to get Putin's sanctions lifted and his gazillions returned to him and his oligarchs. A tortured life for his whole criminal family of always having to look over their shoulders in terror for Putin assassins, might be more satisfying to us than prison anyway.
This is my personal fantasy anyway!
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Under The Radar
(3,401 posts)Despite the fact that no president has, that does not mean that they should never be prosecuted if they have committed a crime worthy of prison.
This president has used the power of his office to prevent investigations and even breaking more laws to impede the investigations. Investigations to crimes before he was president, while running and most certainly while president.
What Is the point of having laws, rules and regulations if they are not going to be enforced?
Laelth
(32,017 posts)But he won't go to prison, and you can bank on it. The interests of the republic (including the peaceful transition of power) supersede the interests of justice.
-Laelth
Under The Radar
(3,401 posts)Ill send in my support check for that immediately
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)I hope this is one of them.
MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)Cannot and will not remove him from office as their constitution duty requires, they have abdicated their responsibility and it therefore falls to "we the people" to come up with a remedy. And it won't be genteel.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Is antithetical to the rule of law.
We all claim to honor that notion, but tend to run away when the going gets tough.
If Trump dies with his so-called fortune intact and in the comfort of one of his mansions, we will have failed in our civic duty.
There is no mitigating this. He walks, we failed. Our constitution failed.
Response to Laelth (Original post)
democratisphere This message was self-deleted by its author.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)If Trump loses in November (which I think he will), the way to make him go away, and to peacefully surrender the reigns of power, is to grant him blanket immunity from criminal prosecution. That's what we have always done in the past, and I think it's what Joe Biden will offer to Trump when Joe wins in November. If Trump goes away peacefully, we will simply call it a victory and move forward.
-Laelth
Response to Laelth (Reply #70)
democratisphere This message was self-deleted by its author.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)But I want to see Trump and his whole criminal family go away. Granting Trump blanket immunity from criminal prosecution (if he agrees to leave office) is the best way to do it, imo.
-Laelth
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Turbineguy
(37,319 posts)getting him out without a prison sentence will save lives. If he is prosecuted, he will want a civil war.
We are not talking about Nixon. This guy is seriously ill.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
dustyscamp
(2,224 posts)We all want him to pay for his crimes, but it just doesn't work that way. We live in the REAL world where the bad guys win most of the time. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. Laelth is 100% right on this
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Thank you for the reply.
-Laelth
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Plus, while it would be nice to hassle him until death, it would be all but impossible to find a jury that wouldnt hang for political crimes.
Now, his kids, enablers, etc., . . . . .
standingtall
(2,785 posts)No President ever has been as corrupt or as criminal as Trump not even Bush.
So a President can cheat to win an election and then cheat again to try and get reelected, but sense he obtained the Presidency he gets a free get out of jail card. What does that say about our Democracy I'm sorry, but sometimes it is better to set an example instead of clinging to some romantic notion of the Presidency. What if it comes to light that he raped someone? or even murdered someone? Sense he was President can't be touched and shouldn't be touched? Sorry I Can't stomach that in fact I would chose a hostile transition of power over that.