CPAP machines.

[Tracer]

I'm no doctor, nor do I play one on TV. But I know quite a few people who use these machines to prevent episodes of Apnea.

Is it possible to use the machines to help sick patients breathe better? People who are hospitalized, but not in such dire straits as to need intubation with a ventilator?

[Phoenix61]

1. I know hospitals have forced air machines

but if CPAP’s are helpful it would increase the number they have. Neat idea.

[magicarpet]

2. Interesting thought, good question, thinking outside the box...

.... may bring answers and remedy to medical issues that currently seem insurmountable.

[Throck]

3. How to get idea to attention of people to try it?

Great idea.

I wonder if oxygen can be introduced on the suction side?

[Jarqui]

8. I have one and I believe it can be modified to do just that

A trickier part is getting the face mask to fit each person. (different sizes required)

What I do not know is how well they would compensate for a ventilator.
They're probably better than nothing.

[Politicub]

4. It's not a matter to of breathing better

Ventilators breathe for the patient when they can’t. That’s why ventilators are so necessary: people with advanced complications from the virus are unable to breathe on their own.

Some people just need oxygen. CPAPs are for a wholly different use case. A better analogue would be bagging a person who is intubated to breathe for them.

[FarPoint]

7. Well said....

I believe there needs to be much more media education regarding the ventilator operation...It's not like plugging in a toaster and walking away...

[stopbush]

16. Exactly. CPAPs force air into the throat to keep the airway open. They don't breathe.

[Recursion]

5. Italy tried it, so did France

France has even nationalized all the commercial CPAPs in stock. I'm not too current on it but the results seem to be mixed.

[donkeypoofed]

6. I'm on CPAP and this could possibly work

But before ventilation is necessary. The machine is meant to force air down the nasal passages, but is also breathed in by the patient. Deep breaths would have to be taken to get down to the alveoli of the lungs. I thought a couple weeks ago that if I ever got it, I would also add food Grade hydrogen peroxide to my distilled water to get that deep into the lungs fighting thr infection where it lives.

[ornotna]

9. Bipap would probably be better

They usually run at a higher pressure

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. I have a VPAP machine under my bed. Man I hated using that thing. The masks always hurt or were

gapped somewhere, and I always felt like I was suffocating when I first put it on.

[NutmegYankee]

10. Not really.

Ventilators force air in by use of a positive displacement pump. CPAP uses a pump or fan to provide increased pressure, but it won't force the lung to inflate. They also don't add extra oxygen and the extra pressure isn't enough to change the partial pressure in the blood.

[Wounded Bear]

11. Perhaps useful on some cases earlier in the process where lung damage is not advanced.

Maybe?

[Politicub]

14. You need to be able to breathe to use a CPAP

It is for controlling sleep apnea. People on ventilators by definition are unable to breathe on their own.

As a long-time CPAP user, it’s clear that it isn’t a substitute for breathing assistance.

[Wounded Bear]

15. Understand they are not suitable for advanced stages...

but maybe they could be useful in the early stages where people are having some difficulty, but are still breathing on their own.

[Politicub]

18. It would make breathing more difficult for someone

with lung damage or fluid in their lungs.

The reason I’m passionate about this is we need ventilators. There is no substitute other than a human constantly standing at an intubated patient squeezing a bag.

That’s it. There is no substitute. It’s a sophisticated machine that does a critical function.

[roamer65]

12. I think they would help those who aren't as serious.

The highly critical cases need ventilators.

[stopbush]

17. Whatever you do, don't let tRump get the idea that a $1000 CPAP machine

works just as well as a $25,000 ventilator or we’ll have even fewer ventilators and more deaths.

[mackdaddy]

19. Here is an Article I found on this. Seems legit, but who knows.

I do and have used CPAP for years. Probably kept me alive when I had un-diagnosed anemia some years ago.

I would definitely use the CPAP myself in the early stages. I think it did help me when I had the bad flu in 2017.

https://emcrit.org/pulmcrit/cpap-covid/

[Sgent]

20. CPAP

and more realistically some forms of BiPaP can be used with a full face mask that allows for oxygenation in a large number of cases, but they have two downsides:

1) Most of the evidence out of IT and WA says that patients who need breathing assistance tend to decompensate quickly and still need to be put on vents.

2) CPAP / BIPAP spew aerosolized virus everywhere making containment impossible except in a negative pressure room, and greatly increasing personal protective equipment requirements.

[LudwigPastorius]

21. A standard CPAP, APAP, or BiPap would not help.

An ASV (Adaptive Servo-Ventilation) machine might help, but 1) there are very few of these machines out there, and 2) they're made to only periodically breathe for someone experiencing central sleep apnea. A patient in respiratory distress would need constant ventilation, something these machines were not designed to do.

[BrightKnight]

22. Ventilators run in non invasive CPAP or BiPAP modes and some can't tolerate ventilator that long

A doctor in Italy was saying that noninvasive might be better for older and more more complex cases. Apparently, patients they are treating for this have to be on the machine for a couple of weeks and they cause a lot of inflammation that some older and sicker patients can't Tolerate.

IDK, but I suspect that they are using non-invasive if they can.


Also, part of the problem might be with displaying data and modifying settings in real time. Most off the shelf CPAP machines collect a ton of data but they don’t display it in real time. Also, it is difficult to change the setting because it requires a prescription.

I have two spare multiple patient rated CPAP machines that I donate immediately if they were asking for them. I’m sure many would but dedicated CPAP, APAP, BiPAP machines are not that scarce.

[Best_man23]

23. The FDA released Ventilator Supply Mitigation Guidance this past weekend

It mentions looking at using CPAP and BiPAP machines as potential mitigation to the ventilator shortage.

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/letters-health-care-providers/ventilator-supply-mitigation-strategies-letter-health-care-providers

The guidance mentions two things to keep in mind if you're using CPAP and you think you might have COVID

"Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP), auto-CPAP, and bilevel positive airway pressure (BiPAP or BPAP) machines typically used for treatment of sleep apnea (either in the home or facility setting) may be used to support patients with respiratory insufficiency provided appropriate monitoring (as available) and patient condition."

and

"Ventilating patients with communicable diseases using devices that are single limb or noninvasive without a filtered seal from atmosphere may contaminate the room air and increase risk of transmission. This risk may be exacerbated by high-flow nasal cannula systems or CPAP machines."

If you use a CPAP or BiPAP/BPAP, you might want to check your supplies and put in an order if you're running low. If you're like me, you probably have at least 1-2 spares of all the consumable supplies.