I've HAD IT with this RUBBISH!

[2naSalit]

This morning I signed into DU and what do I see but another OP about a low population state in my region of residence where MOST OF THE COMMENTS claim that nobody of note-*worthless trumpers*-lives here and most certainly we really must relinquish at least one Senator to other more pouplous states because not enough people live here for their liking.

So here's what I have to say about that:


JUST FUCKING STOP IT.


It's not just that the STATE has TWO SENATORS.

EVERY AMERICAN IN THE 50 STATES GETS TWO SENATORS.
Unless you live in Puerto Rico, DC or a US territory.


JeebusFuckingKrist, if it bothers you that much, you might consider that if WE didn't have two Senators out here, maybe we wouldn't have all this nice wild country so many of you like to visit/trash when you're on vacation. Oh, and all that fresh water that supplies most of the western US, you know, those states with so many very much more important people than those of us hogging too many Senators.

We have a shitload of virus carriers trying to hide out here right now. Out of staters brought COVID19 here for us to try and survive while THEY fill up OUR hospitals. And many disregarding OUR state's Stay at Home Mandate.

And they have doubled the state's population without paying taxes or contributing to our thin resources but wanting ALL the services we have here and then complain that it isn't enough. And they cleaned out our grocery stores when they got here... stores are still trying to restock a month later because dinky little states like ours have to wait until all you extra very important folks in bigger states get everything you need and want first.

See how that works?

And then those of us who do pay taxes and live here all year and vote here will suffer because those/you folks from other states with two Senators and lots of House Reps are here using our thin resources that we paid, worked and fought for taking up space and resources WE residents need to stay alive. Did I forget to say thank you?


Just STOP with this BS about small population states having two Senators. How many House Reps does your state have? Because states like WY & MT have ONE.

Have to change the Constitution to change it and you will need our votes for that.

It tells us that we are, in the minds of the oh so much more very important people from large population states, are here solely to serve your comforts and demands when you come here as well as clean up after you've careened through our parks, rivers, lakes and forests, killing our wildlife and leaving your trash and damage to the natural environment when you go back to your so called civilization. And some even expect us to transform into fucking Disneyland so you can enjoy it in shorts, flipflops and teeshirts with a shaved ice booth every mile and a half and drive right up to the bears in your RVs.

So thanks a lot for being supportive of your fellow Americans!

Get over it. Pay attention to what is really at issue. Your attacks on rural Americans is really telling.

[MontanaMama]

1. Kick.

I was on that thread too. It was said that there was “nobody worth mentioning” in that state. As I said on that thread, my best friend lives in WY. She’s an RN who left an abusive marriage here in MT with her two children. She’s an RN and medical director at Warren AFB for an at-risk youth program. She’s just ONE person worth mentioning among many.

Are health care workers in WY and MT worth less than those in other states? I would hope not.

Good OP. Thanks for writing it.

[2naSalit]

12. Thank you. ...nt

[GusBob]

19. That was a bullshit response about " nobody worth mentioning"

And I believe that poster is a health care provider!

That's very very disconcerting

[cwydro]

2. Rec!

Really tired of reading divisive crap here about rural versus city, Midwest versus coasts, etc.

I really hate to see people using this pandemic to push hatred, but some seem to be enjoying it.

Not sure where you live, but I’m sure it’s beautiful.

[BKDem]

9. It seems to me than 2naSalit is pushing hatred and enjoying it.

His post is divisive crap.

I recognize the dismissive attitude he's criticizing, but his sweeping generalizations are just as bad and just as wrong.

[MontanaMama]

17. You clearly didn't read the comments on the thread she's referring to.

2naSalit is not pushing hate and divisiveness. Read and learn: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213214033

[BKDem]

20. Yep. Those are hateful and divisive comments.

So is this woman’s post, whether you agree or not.

[MontanaMama]

21. I don't.

Enjoy your day.

[BKDem]

22. You too

[Squinch]

25. Seriously? That's what this tantrum was about?

[treestar]

32. We are all accused of visiting/trashing

And new residents are trashed for not paying taxes. But of course they must, and if you move to a state, you are a resident. Longer term residents resenting it are pointless. There are no internal limits on moving between states.

[malaise]

44. Ditto n/t

[Ms. Toad]

34. And red v.blue to categorize state's response to this crisis.

There have been allegations suggesting everone in red states is irresponsibly enjoying their freedom while those in blue states sacrifice to save the rest of the country.

Guess what. The entire state-level administration in Ohio is red - and we have one of the most aggressive responses to COVID 19. Not to mention that the blue governor is following the medical lead of a woman who was an Obama organizer.

It's not red v. blue, rural v. city, or any other stereotypical characteristic. It's responsible v. irresponsible in this crisis - and there are plenty of both in each of the stereotypical categories.

[True Blue American]

3. And just look who Wyoming

Chose!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Liz_Cheney?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[genxlib]

4. Feel Better?

Respectfully disagree.

If NY and California had more Senators and your State had fewer, your life would be immeasurably improved.

Your vaunted extra small state senators would sooner sell your public lands to the oil, gas, timber and livestock industry than preserve what you hold dear.

[Coventina]

6. Good point. n/t

[Ferrets are Cool]

26. This

[la-trucker]

5. I respectfully disagree

The two senators per state was enacted when all 13 states had roughly the same population.

We are in a representative democracy of people. By changing that equation, we give far more power to states who don't have that much population and depriving democratic rights to the ones who have the large population.

Having more representatives in the house does not neutralize that because that is an entirely different body in a bicameral legislature.

[Demsrule86]

11. It was enacted because small states would not sign ratification without this...and it would require

a constitutional amendment to change it. This will never happen. So maybe we need to win over such states...and accept that which we can't change.

[treestar]

28. Not hopeless

Some would have said that of the vote for women at one time. Not every small state is against it many of them are blue.

[Celerity]

7. the fact that Wyoming has the same amount of Senators as California is ultra destructive nt

[Squinch]

8. Fuck that noise. I live in New York. Our stores aren't stocked either.

And it's OUR fault Coronavirus is in YOUR state? Fuck that. Maybe look at your state's policies for how the virus got into your state.

And you don't want people from other states "polluting" your pristine surroundings? Maybe decide that BEFORE you accept the check for the property they bought or BEFORE you set up hotels and restaurants and whole industries that provide revenue and jobs for your pristine populations.

As for the representation, you are no more valuable than I am. Yet you have an astonishingly larger representation than I do. Those states with 1 rep? Thats because their populatiin only warrants one.

So cut the shit and spare me your outrage.

[BKDem]

10. Well said.

[HotTeaBag]

27. Yep.

[malchickiwick]

13. Fix the H of R -- Ratify the ACTUAL First Amendment

In 1789, James Madison, then an elected member from Virginia of the First Congress's House of Representatives, proposed 19 amendments. The Senate consolidated and trimmed these down to 12, which were approved by Congress and sent out to the states by President Washington in October, 1789.

The states ratified the last 10 of the 12 amendments. They became the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, and are now referred to as the Bill of Rights. Not enough states (10 were needed at the time) ratified the first two of Madison's original 12, however, and they did not become law.

The first of these would have established how members of the House of Representatives would be apportioned to the states. It was drafted to ensure that members of the House would continue to represent small constituencies even as the general population grew, small enough that Representatives would not be too far removed from the concerns of citizens. In addition, keeping the House of Representatives from being too small was thought to protect against its becoming a kind of oligarchy. Congress did send this amendment to the states, but the number of states that ratified it was just short of the number needed. Although the proposed amendment did not become law, Congressional apportionment is nevertheless grounded in the Constitution (Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3) and the total number of members of the House of Representatives is set by federal statute (currently at 435).

The second became the Twenty-Seventh Amendment in 1992, BTW, so it is clearly not too late.

[2naSalit]

14. ...

[Brainfodder]

15. You have a problem with ASSHOLES!

Don't we all?

Overwhelmed as of LATE, dare I say?

[JT45242]

16. Senate problems in general (leftovers of slavery) and the problem with the cap on the House

I didn't see the original post -- but there is fundamentally a problem with the Senate. It was designed to make certain that slave states and small states wielded power somewhere. Hence, the ludicrous nature of the Senate today in which 14% of the population controls over 40 percent of the Senate (and those small, underpopulated states are overwhelmingly Republican -- by plan that dates back to Reagan's goons like Baker).

That wouldn't be a problem if the house (and therefore the electoral college) adjusted size with increases in population. The worst thing that happened for the representative democracy was capping the number of representative while guarneteeing small states got to keep their one. So, the votes of these low population states wield overwhelming power in both the Senate and the Electoral college and that brings about the tyranny of the minority factions (see the Federalist papers for what both Hamilton and Madison thought about that). T

This could be done undone very simply by changing the way that the House is populated and eliminating the cap on the number of reps there are. Wyoming (smallest population state equals 1 rep, 567K people. Then you have to be X.6 larger than that to round up. The number of reps and the electoral college would change every 10 years but it would undo the tyranny of the minority. California has 70.43 times more people, so we round that down. California gets 70 reps, and 82 electoral college votes. Wyoming is still over-represented in both the Senate (intentionally) and in the electoral college (but to a much lesser degree than it is now). Iowa had 5.6 time more than Wyoming, so we would get 6 reps and 8 electoral college votes.

It is a lot like that idiotic county map that the Republicans love to show. They carried all those counties in the 2016 election. But empty land doesn't vote, people do. I live in Iowa with 99 counties. I didn't check, but I am fairly certain that just 2 counties in Ohio (Hamilton and Cuyahoga) alone would have more population than the entire state of Iowa. Heck, the county of New York has more people than over half the states.

The other issue that many of us have with these smaller states with 2 senators grabbing pork for their state is that they overwhelmingly take in much more in federal money than they pay in. They scream and yell (at the Senate level ) that they want a smaller government (see Tea Party douchebags) except when it comes to cutting federal money and set asides for their industries.

Again, I didn't see the original post, but the vote against witnesses at the impeachment trial showed demonstrably the tyranny of the minority as Senators who represented less than 1/3 of the population were able to destroy one of the basic tenets of common law dating back to the Magna Carta -- trials have witnesses.

I don't wish ill to the people that live in small rural states -- I just wish that they did not wield disproportionate power in the senate and the electoral college. The constitution was designed to give them larger power in the Senate but less in the electoral college. The law that capped the house, moved that power to them in another branch as well. If that were undone, then some of the resentment that looks at the guarenteed over-representation of the Republican in the Electoral Coilege would be less liely to boil over.

[Wellstone ruled]

18. You okay?

Sure did a number on the City Slickers.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

23. Only Republican Senators from Wyoming since 1977.

JeebusFuckingKrist, if it bothers you that much, you might consider that if WE didn't have two Senators out here, maybe we wouldn't have all this nice wild country so many of you like to visit/trash when you're on vacation.

If you didn’t have TWO GOP Senators, you think that your environment would be worse? I’m missing something.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Oh Brother!

SMH!

[coti]

29. Hmmm....naw. I still say fuck the Senate.

And the Electoral College, for that matter.

[GemDigger]

30. Dayam, Tell it like it is!!

Bravo!

[treestar]

31. Having two senators

Is not essential. Without bot wouldn’t us awful city slickers still come to vacation?

Who is there demanding services and emptying the shelves? Los Angelenos flying up to shop? You’re surrounded by similar states.

No one should be unequal in representation. I come from a teensy tiny state with one house rep and I’m one of those over represented . But I’m against it.

[Happy Hoosier]

33. The structure of the Senate....

...enables minority Republican rule on the national level.

[getagrip_already]

35. just one small point of order here...

Many of those "out of state'rs" are in fact property owners, or they have contracted with property owners to be there. You gladly welcomed them when they spent their dollars in better times.

They are citizens of the same country you are, or enjoy the same rights under that constitution you so correctly support.

So STOP IT already. Every american has the same rights, and many non-americans have quite a few as well.

So it doesn't matter where they are from or why they are there. They have the same rights under the constitution that you do.

You are right you are entitled to your senators, as misguided as they may be. But you are wrong that your visitors are somehow not entitled to be there.

They are. Sorry if that is inconvenient for you.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

38. I suspect these kinds of outbursts...

... will become more frequent as the virus spreads more into rural areas, perceived to be “brought there” by the “city slickers” visiting their area.

[defacto7]

36. Hmm.. sounds rather familiar.

[appalachiablue]

37. "Virginia has 2 US senators, which one would you like

to drop out?" The response to a south basher going on about the unfairness of the senate structure and calling for states in the south to reduce representation.

The Blue v. Red and Urban v. Rural usage reaches noxious levels at times, and definitely fosters more division just like Hate Media. And efforts to shame and scorn don't lead to results in changing voting patterns.

[LiberalLoner]

40. Thank you. Was raised in Montana.

[2naSalit]

41. And because nobody lives here or nobody of note, I guess the Native Americans aren't here either.

Looks like we're outnumbered in everything according to everyone who takes offense at my points.

Truth hurts sometimes.

[2naSalit]

42. ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016251068

[Turin_C3PO]

43. Small states

are over represented, period. Yes, it’s constitutional, but it’s unfair and gives you more representation than someone in a larger state.

Rural America is largely responsible for giving us Republican rule. There are good Democrats there, but they’re outnumbered.