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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:41 AM Apr 2020

Two potentially worrisome U.S. pandemic scenarios I haven't seen discussed

The first involves the ability of Trump to "open up" the economy without the agreement of various states to comply with his mandates. I assume that Trump lacks the legal ability to force a Governor to relax shelter in place orders or to open up "non essential" businesses. But can he (with the help of congressional Republicans) in essence "starve us out" of our homes into the work place? I am not up to speed enough on standard unemployment insurance regulations, let alone "enhanced" unemployment benefits, to speculate knowledgeably about this. I know that there is both a State and Federal role in the provision of unemployment benefits,, and I know that ALL States will be highly strapped for cash this year with their own tax revenues plummeting.

To the extent that any additional federal legislation will be needed in order to provide continued financial support to individuals, either through extended and/or enhanced unemployment benefits or through direct cash grants, that gives Trump potential leverage to force States to force workers back to work even under unsafe conditions. What made me think of this is that a nephew of mine works at a large postal sorting facility on Long Island. He already knows of two of his co-workers who have died from Covid-19. He obtained a medical statement from his doctor that enabled him to stay off the job for the month of April (I am not privy to what condition was cited in that statement that provided the basis of his medical leave). But here's the point. My nephew is now on unpaid medical leave. He has no income. I assume he does not qualify for unemployment insurance but perhaps I'm mistaken.

Either way it made me think. Unemployment insurance is based on the premise that work is not available. When unemployment insurance is not available, people must somehow work in order to survive. When unemployment insurance runs out people will need to work in order to survive. If unemployment benefits are in the future denied to the self employed or gig workers, people will have to abandon staying at home and venture out to work in order to survive. If States can't fund their medicaid programs because their budgets go bust, people will have to work in order to obtain or
afford medical care. So will people be forced back into the workplace under unsafe conditions by denying them any other means of survival?

The second, in some ways inverted scenario that occurred to me is this. Will people in the relatively near future be discriminated against regarding employment opportunities if they can not provide evidence that they have personally developed anti-bodies to Covid-19? While Covid testing is only available to 1% to 2% of the public, I doubt if many professions would require proof of personal anti-bodies in order to work with the public. Perhaps first responders would be screened in that way. But could employers in the retail sector, or in large office complexes for example, require the provision of anti-body certification from potential hires? If so, might young potential employees be tempted to seek out exposure to Covid-19 on the assumption that it would not seriously sicken them due to their age, so that they could emerge from a minor bout with better job opportunities? A little far fetched, granted, but we will be entering uncharted waters whenever we attempt to reengage in wide spread commerce during a highly contagious pandemic of a disease for which there is no real treatment.

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Two potentially worrisome U.S. pandemic scenarios I haven't seen discussed (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Apr 2020 OP
We are going to start going back to work/school/restaurants/stores/gyms/salons BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #1
currently our R0 is 1.5 during NY Metro lockdown, we're not going to go anywhere with it being uponit7771 Apr 2020 #2
NYC is bad, and a special case, I think--the rest of the country BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #5
I'm making the case that NY is the norm looking at NOLA & Detroit which aren't as dense. Mexico uponit7771 Apr 2020 #9
That does suck. That's why this will have to be managed BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #10
+1, we can only manage this regionally with a nationwide travel ban. No one in our out of the uponit7771 Apr 2020 #12
I'll bet people will be careful of their own and others' behavior when allowed more freedom BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #14
+1, There will always be 5-10% of every population and that's best case scenario. That 5 to 10% uponit7771 Apr 2020 #15
Also, if they do make a special hiring pool out of people that had the disease, BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #4
There's no proof yet that the infected population will develop immunity to COVID-19.... KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2020 #18
That lack of understanding of how this new virus behaves is why the "antibody/immunity" card BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #19
K&R SheltieLover Apr 2020 #3
I just asked in another thread this same thing durablend Apr 2020 #6
I think the shift in focus, once we get this more under control, will have to be helping the at-risk BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #8
That would be a sane, responsible, and compassionate approach Tom Rinaldo Apr 2020 #13
Yes, all of that would have to occur. But I believe it would be less costly for society BusyBeingBest Apr 2020 #16
The social safety net needs to be strengthened for workers also Tom Rinaldo Apr 2020 #17
They do test for hepatitis when one applies for work (at least in the state of MO), SWBTATTReg Apr 2020 #7
in South Korea, they claim there are 51 individuals who became reinfected after having had Covid-19 Victor_c3 Apr 2020 #11
These seem well thought out customerserviceguy Apr 2020 #20

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
1. We are going to start going back to work/school/restaurants/stores/gyms/salons
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:48 AM
Apr 2020

in the next few months, at least those people who aren't in a vulnerable group. But we will have to be prepared to flatten the curve over and over again at least on a local scale, I believe--rolling shut-downs for several weeks as hospital capacity suffers or new infections spike. Maybe the solution is to be like Asian countries and just get used to wearing masks everywhere during outbreaks.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
2. currently our R0 is 1.5 during NY Metro lockdown, we're not going to go anywhere with it being
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:50 AM
Apr 2020

... that high without a weekly rolling 1% or proper sample rate testing campaign which Red Don wont do.

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
5. NYC is bad, and a special case, I think--the rest of the country
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:52 AM
Apr 2020

could monitor and do rolling shut-downs IF widespread testing was available and the infected could be monitored. Unfortunately, we have Destructo Donnie and his crew of numbnutz in charge.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
9. I'm making the case that NY is the norm looking at NOLA & Detroit which aren't as dense. Mexico
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:56 AM
Apr 2020

... City would be the outlier seeing how many people live in it per sq mile.

Nola and Detroit and ATL numbers are going up like NY metro areas but not as high because of population.

Birx said we're at R0 of 1.5 with lockdown, that's horrible

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
10. That does suck. That's why this will have to be managed
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:04 PM
Apr 2020

in multiple ways for the long term, I think, at least for other cities who aren't as hard-hit. Local or regional hospital capacity, assessed daily, is going to have to be the first and most important trigger for imposing lock-downs and curfews, at the very least.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
12. +1, we can only manage this regionally with a nationwide travel ban. No one in our out of the
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:05 PM
Apr 2020

... region much like Wuhan.

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
14. I'll bet people will be careful of their own and others' behavior when allowed more freedom
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:12 PM
Apr 2020

IF the threat of another shut-down/travel ban always looms at a certain publicly-acknowledged tripwire. In other words, if you are a careless asshole who gets into other people's 6-foot space, and you don't use sanitizers, wipes, or wear masks when asked to, you are going to have a lot of people in your city angry at you.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
15. +1, There will always be 5-10% of every population and that's best case scenario. That 5 to 10%
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:15 PM
Apr 2020

... would be enough to screw it up for everyone when it comes to CV19 though.

This thing has an unmitigated r0 of 4 IINM, that's like polio 2 people from China smashed Northern Italy

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
4. Also, if they do make a special hiring pool out of people that had the disease,
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:51 AM
Apr 2020

then yes, lots of younger people will have coronavirus parties or deliberate exposures. It's a stupid fucking idea.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,490 posts)
18. There's no proof yet that the infected population will develop immunity to COVID-19....
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:49 PM
Apr 2020

that is lasting and guarantees people will not be passive carriers. There's much work to be done but we must first get out of crisis mode and allow our medical systems to recover from massive shock.

I feel we should maintain isolation until our medical professionals are satisfied the majority of people who have had it can develop lasting immunity and they are satisfied there's no serious side effects of having the disease, both long and short term.

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
19. That lack of understanding of how this new virus behaves is why the "antibody/immunity" card
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 01:13 PM
Apr 2020

idea is stupid right on the face of it, AND the fact that creating a financial and freedom incentive to getting sick will indeed SPUR some young invincibles into behaving stupidly and they will catch/spread the disease instead of avoiding it--punishing the responsible people who avoid the disease and avoid spreading it, and rewarding the irresponsible types.

I don't think we need to stay isolated until they understand the immunity better, because that might take years. They won't even be able to get a handle on a vaccine any time soon if there's still questions about exposure/immunity, and we can't financially or societally survive hiding out waiting for a vaccine. It's just not going to happen.

SheltieLover

(57,073 posts)
3. K&R
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:50 AM
Apr 2020

Starving our working class families is a repub specialty, so I have been expecting the stranglehold on fed funding, including unemployment to occur.

Same with repuke governors lording the purse strings over Dem mayors to force "reopening" cities & counties, I am guessing.

Gawd they are so sickening! 🤮

Dr. Fauci is floating the idea about paperwork or some type of card people would be granted if immunity is shown through testing. Problems with this for sure, starting with this: scientisrs do not know whether there is any short- or long-term immunity post-infection. S. Korea is seeing what they are guessing to be either faulty tests, reinfection, or reactivation of virus. 😳

Not that lack of immunity concerns dumpster fire...

durablend

(7,460 posts)
6. I just asked in another thread this same thing
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:53 AM
Apr 2020

The implication of "we're (Trumpco) not paying you any more unemployment--get back to work". Could he do that?

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
8. I think the shift in focus, once we get this more under control, will have to be helping the at-risk
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:56 AM
Apr 2020

populations financially and service-wise, while allowing those who choose to go back to work to do so, WITH employer-provided protective gear and social distancing continuing as needed. And employer-provided testing/quarantining also as necessary.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
13. That would be a sane, responsible, and compassionate approach
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:05 PM
Apr 2020

assuming of course that more than mere lip service was paid to "helping the at-risk". And assuming that major employers do not engage in cost cutting to circumvent or water down protective gear and social distancing regulations. And assuming there was sufficient testing capacity to quickly identify and suppress new outbreaks. And assuming hiring and staffing policies do not provide any economic incentive for individuals to intentionally develop anti-bodies to Covid-19.

BusyBeingBest

(8,052 posts)
16. Yes, all of that would have to occur. But I believe it would be less costly for society
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:30 PM
Apr 2020

both in the short and long term to allow healthy low-risk people back to work WITH ALL NECESSARY PROTECTIONS, and support the seniors and pre-existing condition crowd with financial aid and support--rather than risk an ongoing landscape of failed businesses and shuttered industries. In other words, do they want to pay stimulus and rent-forbearance and unemployment to healthy able bodied willing adults for the next few years until they can get vaccinated, or let at-risk people with a medical or family-care excuse to receive that type of aid and support instead? I think that would be the ideal way to go.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
17. The social safety net needs to be strengthened for workers also
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 12:42 PM
Apr 2020

Health care insurance needs to become highly affordable and readily available to all, as well as health care itself. Even post peak demand for medical resources will be far greater than previous to this pandemic until an effective vaccine is widely available Paid medical leaves have to become institutionalized and generous enough to allow for self quarantine by workers with expected exposures, in order to prevent future spikes.

A rational approach to balancing our economic and public health needs is possible, but that approach requires embracing a degree of social and economic justice that our society has proven to be quite resistant to, at the behest of those who have flourished "under business as usual."

SWBTATTReg

(22,112 posts)
7. They do test for hepatitis when one applies for work (at least in the state of MO),
Sat Apr 11, 2020, 11:54 AM
Apr 2020

and the restaurant industry does seem to have an influx of young workers. There are other professions that I'm sure would require certification of their health but I personally don't know of any myself. I'm suspecting anything in the health care, day care facilities, nursing homes, etc. (?, again, I'm not 100%). But I do know for sure the hepatitis certification (and that you had the shot for hepatitis too) in MO.

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